Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (GAME OVER)

[Kilgamayan]

Although I must say that I am personally dumbfounded that you all didn't manage to lynch me for a number of reasons that I can't even count.

You were dead if I had survived to Day 3, as I was fully prepared to push you over Yakumo simply because there was a far larger public outcry against you. The one time a paranoid cop role would've been useful and I didn't get the chance.

Thanks a lot, Corwin. >:|

[Yakumo]

The thing is, other than conflicting claims which basically put us in a 50/50 situation, and might be two townies like our two cops in this game, I don't see many possibilities where the scum can trip themselves up in a full roleclaim.  Especially in a game like this one, where we aren't expecting everyone to have a role and they can very easily just claim Vanilla.  Now, for people like Corwin where the claim is provable, or for someone who has useful info to share?  Yeah, they should claim.  I just don't see why in most cases everyone putting a claim on the table really helps.

For example, let's say we'd done it this game.  Everyone left in the game on the town side aside from Corwin was vanilla.  The only thing that happens if we fullclaim in this game is that the scum know the only person that's dangerous to them is Corwin, as the virtually-confirmed townie, and that they can just pick off whoever they want on later nights.  What does town get?  A falsified Governor claim from Otter, a falsified Cop claim from the day before, and whatever Dhyer decided to say, be it vanilla or a power.  Scum get all the info, town gets pretty much nothing.  The fullclaim helps the scum, not the town.

If you can think of a situation where a fullclaim seriously helps town aside from the exception I already said, that an info role has something to help, and it's not from the scum being stupid and claiming something that doesn't make sense, please enlighten me.  I don't want to be playing a style that everyone finds really scummy if there's really a reason for seeing it that way, but I honestly don't see it.

[QuietRain]

I have 2 questions.  And these are only in regards to C9 games or games like this where there are no roles like Watcher or something to verify who is doing what to whom.

1 - What good does claiming vanilla do?  It's an easy out for scum and there is no way to verify it.

2 - Why on earth should Doc be shared?

I understand the logic behind roleclaims when you HAVE something to share or in games where someone has a Watcher-type ability where actions can be verified.  But in ones like this or the standard game, I fail to see the logic.  Can someone explain?

[Ranmilia]

I'm not quite sure what you're going for with those questions, QR.  It is always best for town to be truthful with their roleclaims, if they make them.  A vanilla claim shouldn't get anyone off your back.  If you're vanilla town and forced to claim it, you should understand that you are likely about to get lynched.  You should try to figure out why this is happening (whether it's from a legitimately dumb move you made, or if someone's training you) and give your fellow townies your best thoughts to consider after you are dead. 

If you are doc you should do your best to avoid claiming, but if you are absolutely going to get lynched, claim it.  If you are really doc, scum can tell, they'll know you are being truthful and they know that your continued life prevents them from killing the people they want to/people you'll most likely protect.  This doesn't mean that the scum will kill you right away, they may try to pull a gambit on you like I did to Andrew in Phoenix Wright.  But that route is extremely risky for them and even if successful you've still impeded their game plan. 

Roleclaims are made so that if you have a power role town can back off of lynching you.  If you try to fakeclaim a role, it is usually too hard to keep it up.  If you fakeclaim doc, for example, you *need to back it up* by actually protecting the best targets and having good reasons for doing so.  The only reason the PW gambit I mentioned came anywhere close to working was because Andrew didn't protect Ciato when he should have (and we as scum took a huge risk betting he wouldn't, because otherwise we were dead on the spot).  Andrew fakeclaimed cop in this game and people should have spotted it due to LadyDoor being a suboptimal choice for investigation and his poor given reasoning in that regard. 

[Luther Lansfeld]

I think people are mistaking "we should analyze this roleclaim" which is the point of a roleclaim with "OH GOD WE CAN'T POSSIBLY LYNCH SOMEONE WHO IS A COP". No. Check the person's patterns to see if they are being honest/consistent and then determine it from there.

Cops are useful, but lying cops are very destructive.

[Ranmilia]

Look, if you people really think that my not wanting a fullclaim at that point was scummy, explain to me exactly what you expect to get out of it that's going to help town.  Seriously.  I really don't understand at all why you consider that bad play.  Please enlighten me, because that's the way I see it and I'm going to continue to play that way unless you guys can explain exactly why roleclaiming really helps town so much.  I don't see any point to it if nobody has any information that could actually affect the lynch.  Now that we know nobody's left playing against me and I can trust everything people say again, I really would like an explanation.

When it's LYLO, why *wouldn't* you want a fullclaim?  As was said in the topic, and proven by the ending of the game, it is nonsensical to not put all of everyone's cards on the table in LYLO.  You don't know for sure that nobody has information left, and town wants all the information they can get their hands on.  Any and all information benefits town at endgame.  A misvote and the game is over.  There is no reason to hide anything - unless you have something to hide, in which case you are scum or have made a mistake that will end the game.  (And hiding that mistake will usually be worse.) 

[QuietRain]

Maybe I wasn't clear.  My apologies.  I wasn't speaking of 'roleclaim before lynch' claiming.  I completely 100% agree with you there.  It was the push in LYLO that 'YOU MUST ROLECLAIM OR ARE SCUM!!!!' that confuses me.  If it's LYLO, why would claiming Doc or vanilla do any good?  

If I'm the Doc and we actually manage to lynch scum that day instead of a townie, my neck is as good as chopped from the scum for my declaration.  But if I don't declare, then what are people to think?  'I MUST BE SCUM!' seems to be the order of the day in that scenario.  So, I can be Honest Townie and claim Doc (and risk losing Town one of it's best assets), or be Bad Lying Townie and claim vanilla and hope it doesn't come back to bite me (which I think I can agree is always bad juju to lie).

What does a Push To Roleclaim in LYLO do for those who have nothing to give?  A Doc has no information that can help town save for their analysis.  Nothing about their role can help town if there are no investigative roles to verify them.  And for a true vanilla, what good does their announcement of the fact do?  It's a perfect cover for scum to use making that claim mean nothing.  We have to rely on analysis of their posts alone, which we'd have to do anyway if they didn't say: I'm Vanilla.  What makes LYLO a 'Mandatory Roleclaim' time for those whose roles give no information to town?

(Again, to clarify, I know that the people themselves have information to give via analysis and reasoning, I'm not saying vanillas and docs have nothing to offer, I'm saying their roleclaim serves no purpose in a game without roles to verify)

[Yakumo]

Sounds like QR's thinking along the same sorts of lines I am.  I don't see the point of telling the scum who every single town role is, since they just have to claim vanilla or something unprovable and the town has no way of telling who's telling the truth, while the scum get what little info they didn't already have when they've already got the upper hand.  The full roleclaim outs the doc that might save and therefore clear someone, the watcher that could see something important, or other roles that the scum don't want to have around.  Meanwhile, the town gets... a bunch of information they can't confirm and nearly half of which is false.  I really don't see why the trade is worth it for the town.

[QuietRain]

Hmm, and to clear it a little more:

I'm not talking about when we don't know what roles are out there.  For example, it became very apparent that there were no watchers in this game.  And in a classic C9 game, we know there are none.  It's situations where we know no roles can verify what we do with night actions that I am confused where claiming cop or vanilla is helpful.

If you have an investigative role that you've been keeping to yourself, yes, LYLO is the time to spill your beans.  And then things can play out.  But if no one has a watcher type role that can see night actions or verify who did what to whom, THAT is the situation I am confused about.

[Ranmilia]

Because the roleclaim itself is information, and not claiming gives scum an even better smokescreen than vanilla claims, since it leaves the door open for them to claim a real role at their convenience.  At LYLO, the game of keep-the-roles-alive-and-don't-tell-scum is *over and done*, even if it's a situation like this game where there's potentially three days of LYLO left.  If town votes wrong in LYLO, the game is over.  Period.  Long term role plans are all but worthless, the thing that matters is lynching correctly in the short term and any information that can potentially help in that regard is worthwhile and necessary to bring out.

"If I'm the Doc and we actually manage to lynch scum that day instead of a townie, my neck is as good as chopped from the scum for my declaration.  But if I don't declare, then what are people to think?  'I MUST BE SCUM!' seems to be the order of the day in that scenario.  So, I can be Honest Townie and claim Doc (and risk losing Town one of it's best assets), or be Bad Lying Townie and claim vanilla and hope it doesn't come back to bite me (which I think I can agree is always bad juju to lie)."

If you are Doc in LYLO your night action is no longer a valuable asset to the town, because if town does not survive the day it becomes irrelevant.  Your claim of Doc can be valuable, since by matching it to your behavior town can make a better decision about who to lynch that day. 

"I don't see the point of telling the scum who every single town role is, since they just have to claim vanilla or something unprovable and the town has no way of telling who's telling the truth, while the scum get what little info they didn't already have when they've already got the upper hand.  The full roleclaim outs the doc that might save and therefore clear someone, the watcher that could see something important, or other roles that the scum don't want to have around.  Meanwhile, the town gets... a bunch of information they can't confirm and nearly half of which is false.  I really don't see why the trade is worth it for the town."

The town gets information, some truthful, some false, and can work to separate the false from the true and therefore make a more informed lynch decision and have a better chance of continuing the game.  By not claiming you're risking the entire game, betting that town will lynch correctly today with incomplete information against your night action being more useful.  THAT is not a good trade to make for town. 

By LYLO, the scum probably already know who's got a role if they're halfway competent.  Even if everyone left is vanilla and claims such, you're not at any disadvantage compared to not claiming, and if there ARE roles left, precludes a scum pulling a last minute "Oh I'm actually X" claim out of nowhere to save themselves, by forcing them to declare it and defend it up front. 

Edit for QR's last post:
Stop relying on roles to prove truthfulness and look at behavior.  Don't say that it's worthless to claim when your claim can't be confirmed by a role.  It can be confirmed by looking at your behavior.  If anything, this is more reliable, since who's to say the guy claiming watcher isn't lying too? 

[Yakumo]

If you are Doc in LYLO your night action is no longer a valuable asset to the town, because if town does not survive the day it becomes irrelevant.  Your claim of Doc can be valuable, since by matching it to your behavior town can make a better decision about who to lynch that day. 

I disagree.  Even if you're in LYLO and stopping a NK doesn't take you out of it, it does clear someone as town because they should have died but didn't.  Unless a scum tries to claim that they were supposed to be the NK target or you have a mod that doesn't tell the target they were attacked, but the second seems to be the expected method and the first puts you in the same sort of situation as the initial full roleclaim would have if the scum had claimed something that a townie actually had, which as far as I can see was one of the best case scenarios anyway.  If you did the full roleclaim, the doc probably doesn't get the chance to stop a NK in the first place.  Yes, you need to survive the day for that to work, but that's not impossible: we should have had two of the scum absolutely dead in this game, one at the very least, in LYLO without a full roleclaim.  I don't really know what OK was thinking. >_>

"I don't see the point of telling the scum who every single town role is, since they just have to claim vanilla or something unprovable and the town has no way of telling who's telling the truth, while the scum get what little info they didn't already have when they've already got the upper hand.  The full roleclaim outs the doc that might save and therefore clear someone, the watcher that could see something important, or other roles that the scum don't want to have around.  Meanwhile, the town gets... a bunch of information they can't confirm and nearly half of which is false.  I really don't see why the trade is worth it for the town."

The town gets information, some truthful, some false, and can work to separate the false from the true and therefore make a more informed lynch decision and have a better chance of continuing the game.  By not claiming you're risking the entire game, betting that town will lynch correctly today with incomplete information against your night action being more useful.  THAT is not a good trade to make for town. 

I just feel like trying to make a lynch with incomplete information is better than trying to make a lynch with so much false information to sift through.  For example, what exactly about Otter's roleclaim makes him more or less town or scum than he was before?  It's unprovable, it's a role that I don't think we've ever even tried to use except for one time when it was influenced by an out of game conversation and a comment after hammer, and it doesn't give us any information in any form unless there actually is a Governor in the game.  If the scum are smart, all of their claims will be something like this: something you can't prove one way or the other, or maybe something useful like a doc that's just getting unlucky.  Like Andrew and his cop claim.  You say we should have known that he wasn't a cop because of his choice of target, I say that my choice of cop target usually isn't the people that look particularly scummy, those people are quite likely to go regardless of whether I check them or not.  It's people that aren't looking very town or very scum that I think are best to look at as a cop, personally.  If you disagree with that too, please explain.  Anyway, got off track.  My point is that the scum's false claims, especially in a LYLO fullclaim when they're not sitting with a rope around their necks and need to make something up to get them out of the noose NOW, are likely to give town no info at all.  While the town tells them everything. 

[QuietRain]

I hardly take ANYONE's claims as gospel.  As I think was evident when I went after Tom when he claimed cop because I didn't believe him.  It really didn't matter that I was a cop, too, in Touhou.  I was quite sure there could be more than one cop.  I just trusted my analysis and my feelings that it wasn't Tom.  I do not think that roleclaims alone should ever be the basis for a Lynch or No.  Analysis is always the way to go, I am not even going to argue that point.  

I still do not see the logic of it, but I think it's more of a matter of my not being able to articulate what I don't understand well enough to elict a response that would clear up my confusion, rather than that your points are off.  I will just chalk this up to how this group plays the game and go with the mandate that all roles should be claimed in LYLO regardless of any other circumstances.  I still do not see the logic, but I think it's a dead horse at this point.  

Thanks for answering, though, Alex. 

[Dhyerwolf]

Yakumo generally summed up my feelings on the end full claim (and probably much more eloquently than I would too!). Just yeah...I'd feel like if I was going after someone I was basically positive was scum, I wouldn't feel the need to put everything out there. If I was completely unsure which way to go, I'd find it useful, but not so much otherwise.

Anyways, I was also all set for the game go into 5 days. Nitori-Me-OK was what I had planned for the final 3 to be, and chances were at least decent that either Nitori or OK would vote for the other. I had even starting mentally lining up my day 5 arguments!

Kilga, I think we still would have been in LYLO so eventually when  you starting pressuring Yakumo, it could have gone very badly for town.

I'm actually shocked LD didn't investigate Otter night 1! I was so sure too.

[Yakumo]

Argh.  Please don't just do it only because everyone says to.  I really think there's a few things this group uses as the gospel truth in Mafia that just don't pan out with the players we have, whether it's because of our personalities or inexperience or whatever, that just don't work, and I really think people need to step back and re-examine their way of doing things to fit this framework instead of everyone just doing it because that's what they learned as the right way or something.  I have yet to see an explanation for this that makes logical sense to me as to why a full roleclaim is always in town's best interest and not wanting to see one is somehow scummy behavior.  Until I do, I'm going to continue playing my way, and if we just drop this here and neither side is convinced, it will be used against me later as a scumtell when it's honestly just what I believe is the truth.  There's other things like this that have been screwing with our games, like Ciato on day one.  There were a lot of jokevotes already, Ciato doesn't like voting without reason, it's categorized by the older players as "scummy" behavior to not throw one down to spur discussion, so even though I couldn't see it as a tell one way or the other as it's consistent for her, it was enough of one to throw doubt on her and eventually helped get her mislynched.  That's just one example, and these things are a major part of what's frustrating me about the game so much right now.  Too many things are preached as good or bad town play no matter what that I think are subjective.

[Kilgamayan]

Kilga, I think we still would have been in LYLO so eventually when  you starting pressuring Yakumo, it could have gone very badly for town.

The only reason town was in LYLO was because Corwin killed me (and, from what Alex told me, he second-guessed himself and chose me over Otter or Andrew). Assuming I didn't die (either because Corwin killed one of the above or didn't kill anyone at all), after Andrew was lynched and flipped GF my sanity would've been questioned immediately and Yakumo's scum return would've been thrown out.

[Shale]

No, town would have still been in LYLO then. It just would've been LYLO with an even number of players instead of odd, which means you'd need five people to lynch (with five townies) and wouldn't have the threat of instant scumhammer if a townie misvoted.

[Ranmilia]

I disagree.  Even if you're in LYLO and stopping a NK doesn't take you out of it, it does clear someone as town because they should have died but didn't.  Unless a scum tries to claim that they were supposed to be the NK target or you have a mod that doesn't tell the target they were attacked, but the second seems to be the expected method and the first puts you in the same sort of situation as the initial full roleclaim would have if the scum had claimed something that a townie actually had, which as far as I can see was one of the best case scenarios anyway.  If you did the full roleclaim, the doc probably doesn't get the chance to stop a NK in the first place.  Yes, you need to survive the day for that to work, but that's not impossible: we should have had two of the scum absolutely dead in this game, one at the very least, in LYLO without a full roleclaim.  I don't really know what OK was thinking. >_>

This is reliant on the mod giving out role information, and also on the NK not being the doc and the doc correctly guessing who it is going to be on.  None of these things should be taken for granted and they are not worth risking a LYLO vote on less than full information.  OK was thinking that you were scummy because you wanted to deny town information, which was true.   

I just feel like trying to make a lynch with incomplete information is better than trying to make a lynch with so much false information to sift through.

This right here is pretty much the heart of the matter.  The entire concept and basis of Mafia is sifting through information and figuring things out.  If you have so little faith in your ability to separate false information from true that you'd prefer a blind shot with no information instead, first, this destroys the point of playing the game, and second, you're probably wrong and underestimating yourself.   

Scum claims at LYLO often do give town information that they could use to make a better-informed lynch decision, and even if not, the drawback of telling the scum the remaining townie roles is almost totally inconsequential and definitely outweighed by the potential information gain.

Yes, I do think town should have been able to figure out that Andrew and especially Otter were lying about their claims.  I don't want to write a dissertation on it, but their cases, behavior, timing and treatment of Ciato gave it away - in spades once Ciato flipped, and in hearts, diamonds and clubs when Otter claimed Gov.  Otter was on Andrew himself, then jumped to Ciato citing as reason only the way she attacked Andrew, then claimed that was enough for him to not gov-save her.  All this went down right before deadline, with Andrew purposefully holding out as long as possible and then turning for a quicklynch. 

In LYLO, when no votes have been cast yet, anyone and everyone is fair game and should be looked at.  If you're a doc or other role and your behavior can back this up, claiming it up front to help clear yourself is one of the best things you can do to help town survive.  In the other direction, scum have a vested interest in never roleclaiming.  Notice, Yakko, that you were scum in many of the games where you did not claim.  Scum love to wait till the last possible second to claim and then throw a lynch on someone else.  It happened on day 2 of this game and partially happened with Otter on day 3.  Mass claim prevents scum from being able to use this psychological tactic in LYLO, whereas refusing to claim risks suspicion falling on you, THEN you claim,  then town is confused and either you look scummy and get mislynched anyhow or you have wasted town's time and effort with something you could have declared up front.  It's mostly the same principle as "roleclaim before you get lynched;"  in LYLO, everyone should be considered about to get lynched. 

[Kilgamayan]

Oh, right right right. My bad.

[Ranmilia]

Yakumo generally summed up my feelings on the end full claim (and probably much more eloquently than I would too!). Just yeah...I'd feel like if I was going after someone I was basically positive was scum, I wouldn't feel the need to put everything out there. If I was completely unsure which way to go, I'd find it useful, but not so much otherwise.

This is true - except it should also be nigh impossible.  You should never be certain in LYLO and always take hard looks at everyone still alive who isn't cleared. 

I really think there's a few things this group uses as the gospel truth in Mafia that just don't pan out with the players we have, whether it's because of our personalities or inexperience or whatever, that just don't work, and I really think people need to step back and re-examine their way of doing things to fit this framework instead of everyone just doing it because that's what they learned as the right way or something.  I have yet to see an explanation for this that makes logical sense to me as to why a full roleclaim is always in town's best interest and not wanting to see one is somehow scummy behavior.  Until I do, I'm going to continue playing my way, and if we just drop this here and neither side is convinced, it will be used against me later as a scumtell when it's honestly just what I believe is the truth.  There's other things like this that have been screwing with our games, like Ciato on day one.  There were a lot of jokevotes already, Ciato doesn't like voting without reason, it's categorized by the older players as "scummy" behavior to not throw one down to spur discussion, so even though I couldn't see it as a tell one way or the other as it's consistent for her, it was enough of one to throw doubt on her and eventually helped get her mislynched.  That's just one example, and these things are a major part of what's frustrating me about the game so much right now.  Too many things are preached as good or bad town play no matter what that I think are subjective.

This argument is inherently flawed.  You could say the exact same thing about (no offense, just for example) Dread Thomas always lying to town and playing to save himself.  As we've hashed out in previous games, that person is the one who needs to change their style, rather than the game changing to accomodate them, because in the end they are objectively wrong and what they are doing is a losing strategy that will hurt town more often than not. 

[Cmdr_King]

I think your argument here is flawed Alex.  Look at this game.  Town lost in LYLO not because they didn't have enough information, but because they second guessed themselves for three days over false information.  Full claims in LYLO are a fine idea if you're really stuck and need as much information as possible, but in this case Andrew should have been dead as soon as all four townies got on, conversed, and agreed to lynch him, but instead the days of inaction lead them away from the mountain of scumtells he left and towards the misdirection the scum had a chance to build.

It's like hammering.  It needs to be done and at a certain point, delaying can only make things worse and you have to bite the bullet and do it.

[Ranmilia]

What CK says is also true, but it in no way eliminates the need for LYLO fullclaim.  If you want to use this game as a specific example, town lost because OK voted for Yakumo, because Yakumo appeared scummy to him for not wanting LYLO fullclaim, because not wanting LYLO fullclaim is a position that hurts town.  Town sitting on their behinds for four days certainly contributed to the loss, but that's more or less unrelated to the fullclaim issue, and OK was the main undecided voter anyhow. 

[Mad Fnorder]

I want to sincerely apologize to everyone for having to drop this game. It just happened to run smack into a major deadline, the past four or so nights I've spent not sleeping to finish. I'd like to thank Gate for keeping an eye on me from post #1. I'm not sure what conclusions to draw in terms of success or failure of the mentor game- the ending was certainly odd in taking so long, if people were being advised.

[Otter]

Seconding Alex on pretty much everything.  I was being serious when I called for fullclaims in LYLO and accused Yakumo based on the fact that he was opposing them.

What I think actually tipped the scales and made OK go with his gut with a Yakumo vote, though (and correct me if I'm wrong, OK), was the way Yakumo had gotten obviously upset at me in day 3, calling me a pompous asshat and so on.  It's too bad that the best strategy for me was to piss him off until he looked worse than I did, but as scum I'm okay with that.  More chaos of that nature always favors me, especially when I'm getting a townie to act out and possibly draw that crucial vote from another townie in LYLO.  It's Yakumo's responsibility in that situation to prevent that ploy from working by remaining polite and sticking to the facts, which would have easily led to an Andrew lynch because his being scum was a fact and his scumminess confirmed mine since he voted for you together with me (which was premature and a scum error, unfortunately).  Two of three scum were already bagged, or should have been, and as someone who loves playing town I can see how frustrating it is to lose here anyway.

What's the solution?  Don't get riled.  You can choose not to take Mafia personally and it's a choice you should make because it's not a game that should be taken that way.  Not only does it make everything less fun, but it actually substantially hurts your chances of winning.

"Why are these ad hominem attacks considered scummy?  Aren't townies as prone to them as anyone?"  They're scummy because they obscure real issues of the game with personal drama and there's no point in making them if you're really a townie.  It's that simple.  It can't help a townie to act that way, and in many cases there's no good reason for you to be upset anyway; my inciting Yakumo wasn't anything personal, I was just playing the game and using the one chance we had left to avoid an Andrew lynch that day.  It really shouldn't have worked for a variety of reasons, but it did.

[Excal]

One of the reasons it worked was killing me night one.  I saw, very clearly, the effects of your incivility on Ciato on Day 2, and managed to figure out that you were scum based on thinking on why you'd be acting in a way that would simultaneously make Ciato look bad as well as impede her ability to think or even react in any coherant fashion.  And, yeah.  There's no benefit for town in trying to make a self-fulfilling scum hunt.

Of course, the only people I could really talk about this with were Alex and my fellow dead.  >_>

[Yakumo]

What CK says is also true, but it in no way eliminates the need for LYLO fullclaim.  If you want to use this game as a specific example, town lost because OK voted for Yakumo, because Yakumo appeared scummy to him for not wanting LYLO fullclaim, because not wanting LYLO fullclaim is a position that hurts town.  Town sitting on their behinds for four days certainly contributed to the loss, but that's more or less unrelated to the fullclaim issue, and OK was the main undecided voter anyhow. 

This statement right here sums up what my problem is here.  You still haven't given enough reasoning to convince me and other people in here that not wanting a full roleclaim is scummy, yet you're saying that WE need to change to fit YOUR style when you can't even prove your style is right!  Evil Tom's actions are different, as he is the only one that seems to not find himself scummy.  This issue has several people questioning you on it, you you're sticking to your guns and saying that, NO MATTER WHAT, this is scummy behavior.  All you're doing is repeating yourself with logic that doesn't make sense to me, you haven't convinced me that you're RIGHT.  More later, gotta run.