Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Monado Mandala Week 5

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

WA2 stat boosts are totally dispellable. I'm just not sure if the Ninas -do- have Dispel.

[Nephrite]

Does anyone know what kind of damage Ragnarok is (Nina5) and if it's blockable in any way? It sounds like it's kind of an ultimate move.

[074]

Ragnarok's got a three-round chargetime, if I remember right.    It's doubtful that she's actually getting that spell off, ever.

[Clear Tranquil]

Snow according to the stat topic Nina does get Dispel, it just didn't make all that much sense until Neph explained it here >_>

To answer some questions, Lilka is faster then Cecilia, so she would be able to use up Nina1's Dispel before Cecilia casts Hi-Reflect.

If someone sees the item cast Death breaking through reflect, Lilka can simply counter that by stealing Tims Thanatos X by mysticing a Holy Grail(Grants protection from instant death for the entire party)

Yeah but she can't do both at once   Unless she starts with enough FP to use mystic instead of a spell or something. Actually that's a good question anyway *eyes Neph* What are the rules regarding Mystic in the dungeon anyway? It *does* require items and even though it is the dungeon as far as I know item use isn't just granted as a matter of course, it's part of the cost like Sharanda with items or Rikku w/th Use. Besides irrc a while ago people were seeing Jane as nothing until Follow Me because of not allowing her Mystic or something. Could be wrong.

Even ignoring the Death thing Nina's Dispel is going to stop the multi Hypered Evil Blossomed Raquel from happening no? Plus Nina5 has a shield that reduces physical damage by 50%.

I'm ignoring the death thing atm the moment because I could have sworn WA4 had an ID blocking accessory. I've just not sure if it's storebought by now or can be made at this point. How about your revivers? Do they have legal accessories for that? Oh yeah Jane can only use follow me once per fight right?

**

Wait ... what? L50-60+ is F5? I thought F7 was end game/final boss and then post game for the floors after that >_>

[Bardiche]

The Nina fight, to me, hinges mostly on whether or not Hi-Reflect cancels one spell or multiple spells.

Hi-Reflect canceling after reflecting one spell means Ninas open a can of whooparse on Glenteam's arse.

WA4 right now is... Etemenanki Tower?

[Clear Tranquil]

Well the old WA:AF stat topic says "Reflect" lasts for three turns including the turn it was cast on. I assume it's the same for Hi Reflect then, probably. In my case the match the hinges on whether a) Cecilia and Lilka can block ID with accessories b) the legality of Parasol + whether or not item cast ID would get through anyway c) Glen actually does have two revivers, I'm just assuming Lilka gets it since it's not mentioned in the stat topic (which makes sense since she's normally just duelling but yeah) and d) whether Follow Me works more than once (if it doesn't and the Ninas can stall long enough for Hi Reflect to run out, etc then their speed becomes a factor, none of the Ninas are particularly slow and Nina4 and Nina5 are just fast period)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Cecilia can immune the ID spells with the parasol, assuming they're reflectable, or cast Soul Guard/Status Lock to immune them. Lilka has no ID immunity. Also, I think Reflect in the original WA -doesn't run out-, because WA1 buffs were teh brokeds.

[Talaysen]

WA4 ID blockers are from the Black Market, very endgame.  You can find them as drops and from chests before then though.

Follow Me works every time it is used.

Lilka has no passive status immunity, the Mystic Holy Grail must be used.  Mystic Holy Grail effect is also unique to the Mystic user as it is not an item that can be used normally, so there really isn't a reason it shouldn't be allowed.  I don't think it even consumes the Holy Grail in the process.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm just not sure if you -get- a Holy Grail at that point in the game (you probably do, but can't be sure), which would be the relevant part for me in that. She definitely should have the FP to use it by now.

[Random Consonant]

Looked at a FAQ, which says that you can get the Holy Grail around the time you do the Diablo Pillars, so he probably has it.

[ThePiggyman]

Uhh, alrighty...

Nama passes. Cecil/Nina fight is manageable.
Leaning fail on Snowfire and Glen's matches. Floor 5 isn't that near end game, but maybe I'm being a little rough on when to allow things. Wild Arms is far behind me.

[Taishyr]

Nama and Snowfire pass, gut says Glen also passes but I'd need to confirm some stuff. Cecilia has Parasol to me which makes her a migraine to the Ninas, at the very least; gut is Jane also gets Follow Me off, which ensures at least three are disabled (Hi-Prison, Nina 1/2/5 get mocked, Lilka's faster so uses a spell to counter Dispel, which nullifies the one person with a speed advantage) and that Nina4 get thrown into the wringer badly by Raquelsmash. If Nina1 statuses Raquel out instead, Follow Me -> Status Lock -> Hi-Prison and the enemy Ninas are stuck in a fight they really can't get out of easily. Willing to hear more arguments, but.

[Bardiche]

Two of the Ninas have Revival: Nina1 and Nina4. Ergo, Raquel can't beat down the Ninas since they'll revive one by one.

Except Raquel has Intrude. Yeaaaaaaah.

A pass to all teams.

Even allowing Nina1 to act before Jane's Follow Me (since Jack can do this with Accelerator), I just can't see the Ninas working around Hi-Reflect if it doesn't subside after reflecting one spell.

[SnowFire]

Team Glen: Sure, I'll buy the arguments.  Status Lock in particular sounds like it'd be pretty cool against the Ninas, even if they were somehow able to kill Raquel momentarily.  Pass for Glen.

ThePiggyman: Well, a conservative Floor 5 for my team means, at worst, no Raise Dead for Rena?  Nobody else loses anything really important (unless you scale back Rena so much she doesn't have Anti either, granted, but meh to that.).

Rena not having Raise Dead...   the Lunar and Skies of Arcadia fights are unaffected, Garnet can easily keep up with Ramirez / L2 Ghaleon in reviving Jessica as they kill her while Rena heals.  Same with the Seiken Densetsu 3 fight, that's all about spamming MT healing such that Dolan can't finish the job.  The Zeromus fight...  well, the stat topic lists 1700 damage to a 3000 HP average as the "normal" result of Big Bang.  While it varies a lot, Zeromus has to get amazingly lucky to kill Garnet (whose HP is only a smidge below average, and her MDef notably above average - she naturally reduces magic damage by about 13% according to the stat topic.).  Plus, he can only kill Garnet while Anti / Shell is not up.  In fact, if you hold to my interpretation, it'll always be up since I force Zeromus to use Big Bang after he charges it - meaning he can, at best, go Black Hole -> Charge BB -> BB, and Zeromus doesn't triple turn my characters.  And as noted above, even if you let him Charge BB -> Black Hole -> (keep Black Holing until Garnet / Rena haven't had an intervening turn) -> Big Bang, his chance of killing Garnet are bad, possibly nil (I don't think I've ever seen Zeromus take out a full HP Rosa, for example), so he's actually probably more hoping for something more like triple-killing Jessica, Purim, and Lyn simultaneously.  Good luck to that happening in time when Zeromus is under heavy assault, and also risks a random Killing Edge critical ruining his day.

As for the Orgulla fight....   the situation that U-TIC wants to set up is "Jessica is dead, 3 boost in the gauge."  I don't think they ever really pull this off, but let's say they did thanks to Rena not being able to revive Jess at a timely moment or some other initiative disaster.  Margulis's 4x Rakta, with elemental chaining, is 3760 fire damage to a 1500 HP average, or 2.5 PCHP.  Garnet w/ Anti, Insulate, & native fire halving changes that damage into ~.31 PCHP damage.  Probably a bit less if we toss in her MDef.  So long as Garnet keeps spamming revival on Jessica - Jess doesn't even need to be healed, as Margulis / Orgulla can't do .5x damage in one turn without using Boost, even with the Firefly penalty.  FWIW, if Margulis does Syama->3x Shakti, that's ~1000 or so physical XS2 damage, which is better, but still not a OHKO - that's .66 PCHP.  (And see note below about Lucid Barrier vs. Physicals.)

As for Orgulla herself...  she should never ever be in this position, as Accelerated Garnet outspeeds her and can force Margulis to spend boost on killing Jessica.  Regardless...  she can deal out 6110 Ice/Physical damage to one target with a full boost chain against 1300 average HP, or 4.7 PCHP.  Except...  there's still Defender / Insulate / Ice halving changing that into ~.59 PCHP damage.  But it gets worse.  Purim has Lucid Barrier by now (it's on the wiki interpretation of SoM).  Purim doesn't have the lvl. 8 Lucid Barrier of the stat topic, of course, but average HP is lower too..  it's going to absorb somewhere between .5-1.0 PCHPish in physical damage?  So the damage is even worse, but more importantly, by nulling the first strike (possibly the first two strikes) entirely, I'd say that the "Down" status isn't applied (same logic as fire immunity = Blaze Wall doesn't work).  Orgulla's first turn damage is .36 PCHP, for reference.  The reason why XS2 bosses have such crazy chain damage is because the later strikes are for double damage...  but unable to apply Down early, the damage takes a nosedive.

Anyway, the point is, if Orgulla & Margulis can't kill Garnet, they can't stop her from constantly reviving Firefly'd Jessica and hosing up their attempts to get a consistent offense going.

[ThePiggyman]

Well, I definitely see Anti as Floor 5, so I'll bite. Pass for Snowfire.

I don't recall WA Reflect, probably because I never used it, but if it never wears off, that's ridiiiiiiiculous. And probably a pass for Glen, too. <.<

[Glen Veil]

Jo'ou and Tal seemed to have answered most the questions for me, but I'll confirm a few things.

First off for Lilka and the Holy Grail:

The Holy Grail is obtained in the Serpents Coils Live Reflector right before Judecca's Pillar.

WA2 has ~38 non optional dungeons

Since floors 1-7 are considered the main game, and 8-10 after game, so each floor in the dungeon is about 5 and a half dungeons worth in WA2.  So the floor to dungeon layout would look something like this:

Floor 1: Prologues, Sword Cathedral, Illsveil, Under Trafic, Telepath Tower
Floor 2: Mt. Chug Chug, Golgatha, Aguel Mine Shaft, Raline Observatory, Hidden Trial Arena
Floor 3: Warwing Varukisas, Mt. Chug Chug, Gate Bridge, (Lilka can perform her optional quest for Hi Magic arround here), Slayheim Castle, Alchemic Plant, Emulator Zone
Floor 4: Closed Mine Shaft, Coffin of 100 Eyes, 3 of the Diablo Pillars
Floor 5: Lost City Archeim, (Holy Grail obtained here) Judecca's Pillar, Heimdal Gazzo, Memory Maze, Millennium Puzzle, Grotto of Lourdes
Floor 6: Sacrificial Alter, Lost Gardens, Sleeping Volcano, 2 Raypoints
Floor 7: 2 other Raypoints, Trapezohedron, Firey Wreckage, Spiral Tower, Glaive Le Gable

So Lilka does have access to the Holy Grail by the Nina fight, it could probably be argued that she gets it late floor 4 by doing Judecca's pillar first.

Also about Cecilia's Hi-Reflect, I want to agree with Jo'ou and say it last forever, but I would be lying  if I said I was 100% certain, if it doesn't it does last quite a while though.

The Holy Grail is generally only important if you see the Item Cast death piercing Reflect though.

As for where Cecilia is at in the Dungeon, Wild Arms has 30 none optional dungeons in game, so she goes through 4 and a half dungeons per floor which looks something like:

Floor 1: Prologues, Lolithia's Tomb, Secret Passage, Mountain Pass
Floor 2: Guardian Shrine, Mt. Zenom, Cage Tower, Maze of Death, Sand River
Floor 3: Pleasing Garden, Ghost Ship, Volcannon Trap, Tripillar
Floor 4: Giants Cradle, Epitaph Sea, Sacred Shrine, Photosphere, Dragon Shrine
Floor 5: (Cecilia can learn Hi-Magic at this point) Wandering Isle, Dead Sanctuary, Demons Lab, Gate Generator
Floor 6: (The clue to getting Holy Parasol comes at this point)Forest Prison, De Le Metallica, Gemini's Corpse, Pandemonium
Floor 7: Artica Castle, Ka Dingle, all of Malduke

I'm not inclined to give Cecilia her Parasol until next floor, but I really don't think she needs it, Hi-Reflect means at least three of the Nina's can't do anything except something like 1/3rd average damage physicals, and after she sets up Hi-Reflect for safety next turn she can most likely status out 1-2 with Hi-Prison, which puts the Nina's ability to focus anyone to death to terrible.  My team is also doing something like a 3-2 against the slower Nina's thanks to Jane.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Man, this week's dungeon is really well researched, I barely had to check any stat topics.

Most of what there is to say has been said...

Snowfire passes, I'll buy the Rena Anti arguments. And I think I'd normally see Rena as getting Raise Dead at this point.

Glen... doesn't make it. There's some really good synergy going on, but I'm thinking the lack of Holy Parasol tilts this in favor of the Ninas. I'm also a little skeptical about Lilka having a Holy Grail by this point.

Nama passes. Nina4 stalls for a while, but they manage to blitz pass her.

[Clear Tranquil]

I dunno Tal, Use/Use Items/Effects aren't something that can be used normally and are unique/innate to Rikku too but most people still throw it out =/

I ... yeah. Glen doesn't make it w/o Holy Parsasol. Take out Cecilia and everything pretty much goes down the drain.  Snow has a point with Status Lock but if she's using that she's not using Hi Reflect and yeah.

I'll buy Mystic/Holy Grail hype (since I usually allow characters their more insane personal stuff anyway + plus I'm generally even more lax when it comes to dungeon stuff too, I was just making a query in case other people cared earlier) but ... Nina Dispel and I generally see item casts piercing Reflect as a general rule of thumb yeah.

Nama passes, no arguments here.

I'll compromise on Snowfire and expand my dungeon levels stances to allow L40-L50+ from F4 to F5 and then from L55+ F6 sooo ... Rena gets Anti but not Raise Dead =-) Anti helps though. Yeah I'll bite.

Dungeon vs Glen
Nama, Snowfire vs Dungeon

[dude789]

I just did some quick testing on Dispel. The only thing dispel does is block the effects of one enemy spell on one target. I tested it on zooms (those floating skull enemies who use blizzard). Dispel protected the target from one hit, but it didn't completely cancel the spell. Everyone else was still hit with the blizzard spell. With this Cecilia should easily be able to use Hi-Reflect and Lilka doesn't have to waste her turn getting rid of dispel.

[Taishyr]

...yeah, definitely gives Glen side the win to me, then.

All three teams pass.

[Clear Tranquil]

I was under the impression that Dispel only worked on one target/never saw it completely cancelling Hi Reflect for all targets anyway >_>

Dispel: Nulls out Next Spell, regardless of type (this includes Healing Magic), 20 AP

... Dispel is still removing Reflect from at least one target unless I'm just thick and missing something here >_> If that target is Cecelia then what I said before.

[dude789]

Dispel is a defensive spell not one that removes buffs. It protects the target from the effects of a spell. It can only be used on allies. It's effect is similar to White Dragon Protect except it only affects one target.

[Clear Tranquil]

*CT nods

Thanks for the clarification then dude. Glen still loses to me anyway though unless anyone can confirm that Nina's Item cast Death can be reflected. Even though I see item cast skills piercing Reflect as a general rule of thumb, I don't if there's clear evidence that in their game they *can* be reflected (can't think of a specific example off hand but yeah)

[Nephrite]

Dispel is a defensive spell not one that removes buffs. It protects the target from the effects of a spell. It can only be used on allies. It's effect is similar to White Dragon Protect except it only affects one target.

Well, in Breath of Fire there's really no way to ever target anyone else with an attack like that, is there? I just mean that usually people ignore specific targeting restrictions like that for some skills. (Using Rever off of a PSIV character on an undead enemy, for example)

[Clear Tranquil]

Hell with it pass to Team Glen. Might as well throw in the towel if everyone else is *grumble grumble* ;p I hope you have something particularly evil planned for these teams dungeonmaster!