Season 53, Week 4 - Jenna and Xorn have dinner! Child mortality skyrockets.

[Sei]

I'm getting the "We're sorry, dear reader" message in the Arena page. Is everyone else getting the same problem or is it just me?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

No, it's not just you, and it's a consequence of that one-week break due to DLCon somewhat. Hal's been poked about it, and this should be fixed as soon as possible.

[James_xeno]

Godlike

Zophar (L:EBC) vs. Souji Seta (P4) - Talk about bad luck... Running into Zophar, one of the few GLs that trounces him.

Blue Pillar (91.9% average PCHP) + Ball (135%) + Ball (178%) + Drain (250%) + LLH (331%) = End of Zophar's first round. (if somehow still around, ES?) Blue Pillar (91.9%) = KO (at least 4 PCs worth actually.. lol) Souji doesn't even get a second turn either way. Pretty straightforward.

Jenna Angel (DDS) vs. Xorn (G3) - Uber GL Xorn smashes!


Heavy

Nina Wyndia (BoF1) vs. Demi (PS4)
Kary (FF1) vs. Lede (FFT)


Middle

Rudy Roughknight (WA1) vs. Axl (MMXCM)
Yulie Ahtreide (WA4) vs. Ashton Anchors (SO2)


Light

Aguro (Lufia1) vs. Garet (GS)
Jin Uzuki (XS2) vs. Alonso (G3)


---

Zophar (L:EBC) vs. Souji Seta (P4) - No P4, but assuming you let Zophar's mega-damage be damage there's really no way for Souji to win, right?  Even if it's ID, then Zophar has got multiple elements of attack that Souji probably can't all block at once, as well as some magic which I presume to be non-elemental, which would render the status hype irrelevant?  Even with only two hands, Zophar still easily has better than a OHKO.  Seems like an uphill fight for Souji.

Agree with the rest, but what do you mean by "let" it be damage??

SnowFire: Souji effective has two life bars to burn through (normal+Enduring Soul) plus one more last shot of whatever, so damage slugfests with him can quite easily turn sour even before his defenses kick in. Status is really the only solid way to lock him down.

And Zophar does more than 3x PCHP damage a round. Even if I didn't see that as enough to kill Souji two times over. A R2 Blue Pillar finishes things before Souji gets a second turn.

Godlike

Zophar (L:EBC) vs. Souji Seta (P4)- Zophar is like 2 PC HP. Doesn't help him much when he's aiming for non-fatal status against double reviving (and faster if Zophar wants to use that OHKO damage) Souji.

Actually. Zophar doesn't need FS to OHKO... not a PC at least!

You only see him as 2 PCHP?!

Zophar (L:EBC) vs. Souji Seta (P4) : Bead Ring+ Heat Riser give him the turns he needs.

Dispel makes that strategy not work so well.... Also, how could Souji hope to evade unevadable spells in the first place?

[superaielman]

Got a messed up set of tags, James.

[Bardiche]

Godlike

Zophar (L:EBC) vs. Souji Seta (P4) - I can only root for Zophar.

Heavy

Nina Wyndia (BoF1) vs. Demi (PS4) - Playing through PS4 and stuff really pays off now!
Kary (FF1) vs. Lede (FFT)

Middle

Rudy Roughknight (WA1) vs. Axl (MMXCM) - Rudy really wishes Axl wasn't so cheap. Fffffff immortality.
Yulie Ahtreide (WA4) vs. Ashton Anchors (SO2) - Sure, I'll buy the OHKO hype.

Light

Aguro (Lufia1) vs. Garet (GS) - Either he Stuns Aguro, or reduces incoming damage by 90%.

Looks almost straight-forward. Poor Rudy. Guess Axl'll champ Middle, and Garet Light?

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike

Zophar (L:EBC) vs. Souji Seta (P4)- Zophar is like 2 PC HP. Doesn't help him much when he's aiming for non-fatal status against double reviving (and faster if Zophar wants to use that OHKO damage) Souji.

Actually. Zophar doesn't need FS to OHKO... not a PC at least!

You only see him as 2 PCHP?!

Zophar has ~16000 HP. Average damage DL wise is about 750, meaning all your PCs attacking does 3750 a round. 2.5 rounds of this is 9375 damage, meaning Zophar doesn't even get 2 PC HP. Of course, Souji is knocking any non-physical resistant hands out in a hit, so even if you allow all hands, and then allow them all to focus their best damage, MT smashing takes them out anyways!

[Talaysen]

Not to mention you can kill two of those hands before the rest of Zophar even shows up in-game, so I don't really see how it's fair to allow them all straight up like that.

[Dhyerwolf]

Oh, I definetely don't, but even if you do, it doesn't matter here since the MT blitz will get them anyways.

[James_xeno]

Godlike

Zophar (L:EBC) vs. Souji Seta (P4)- Zophar is like 2 PC HP. Doesn't help him much when he's aiming for non-fatal status against double reviving (and faster if Zophar wants to use that OHKO damage) Souji.

Actually. Zophar doesn't need FS to OHKO... not a PC at least!

You only see him as 2 PCHP?!

Zophar has ~16000 HP. Average damage DL wise is about 750, meaning all your PCs attacking does 3750 a round. 2.5 rounds of this is 9375 damage, meaning Zophar doesn't even get 2 PC HP.

If that's how you do it then I understand.

I should point out though that the average is 680, not 750. All PCs = around 3400. So he would have around 2x PCHP.

Of course, Souji is knocking any non-physical resistant hands[/b] out in a hit, so even if you allow all hands, and then allow them all to focus their best damage, MT smashing takes them out anyways!

The physical resistant hand is the lower left attack hand. Plus, when/how is Souji getting the time to take out the other hands again? Before the other three slam him that is. Even without the other two. Blue Pillar is just about 92% damage, a lower left attack is about 75%-80% and Drain is around 70%.

Start

Zophar: Blue Pillar (92% damage)
Souji: Attack?? (HT costs 25% of Souji's MHP)
Zophar: Drain (70%)
*Souji KO'd > Enduring Soul*
Zophar: lower left hand (75%-80%)

Round 2

Zophar: Blue Pillar (92%)
*Souji KO'd x2*

Fight over!

Not to mention you can kill two of those hands before the rest of Zophar even shows up in-game, so I don't really see how it's fair to allow them all straight up like that.

Fair?! It's fair because:

1. Those two hands are part of Zophar at full power/health. (and we do tend to let fighters start fights fully healed with all of their MP/SP etc.)

2. You don't have to take them out in the first part of the fight. (plus sometimes you just can't in time.)

3. If the first part of the fight is not legal (plot), and thus doesn't happen in the DL. Why wouldn't he start out with all four hands?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Godlike

Zophar (L:EBC) vs. Souji Seta (P4)- Zophar is like 2 PC HP. Doesn't help him much when he's aiming for non-fatal status against double reviving (and faster if Zophar wants to use that OHKO damage) Souji.

Actually. Zophar doesn't need FS to OHKO... not a PC at least!

You only see him as 2 PCHP?!

Zophar has ~16000 HP. Average damage DL wise is about 750, meaning all your PCs attacking does 3750 a round. 2.5 rounds of this is 9375 damage, meaning Zophar doesn't even get 2 PC HP.

If that's how you do it then I understand.

I should point out though that the average is 680, not 750. All PCs = around 3400. So he would have around 2x PCHP.

DL averages =/= in-game averages, and bosses ideally get scaled against the latter. If I recall correctly, EBC has twinking potential that should be considered into the averages, raising those damage figures. That was true of EBO, at least!

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yep. Not very much, mind (some ATK-boosting crests mainly), but it's there. It's probably somewhere between 680 and 750 actually.

Of course I think the scaling Dhyer is using ridiculously underrates Zophar on HP anyway (only kinda underrates it if you give him his arms, granted), and see no reason why Status Ball isn't rape here regardless. (every status but poison is shutdown here)

[Pyro]

I think the hype is blocking silence and having a Persona with a passive skill that automatically cures status. And of course there are other Personas with status resist/block skills and inheritance exists and so on and so forth.

I give Zophar the 3 arms that are invincible for the plot part of that fight, but I was kind of surprised to find out he would crumple fairly fast under a concentrated assault. But I suppose I was just giving him credit for his arms/offense.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I can't speak of EBC paralyze, but EBO paralyze -was- a game over, though - and sounds like Status Ball Zophar is faster than Souji even on turn one (which gives him two turns, and Souji shouldn't OHKO Zophar even with Auto-Taru Hassou Tobi unless he's below 1.4x PC HP). The passive also doen't stop Souji from spending one turn under status, although Iunno what statuses could be annoying on him from that attack.

But then, not an EBC player.

[Dhyerwolf]

Zophar: Blue Pillar (92% damage)
Souji: Attack?? (HT costs 25% of Souji's MHP)
Zophar: Drain (70%)
*Souji KO'd > Enduring Soul*
Zophar: lower left hand (75%-80%)

Souji can opt for Auto-Raku (of course, forcing his damage to be a measly ~1000ish then! Not to mention that Yoshitune gets Auto-Sukus with one only level of inheritance, so arguably evades Blue Pillar the first turn anyways).

[Talaysen]

Fair?! It's fair because:

1. Those two hands are part of Zophar at full power/health. (and we do tend to let fighters start fights fully healed with all of their MP/SP etc.)

2. You don't have to take them out in the first part of the fight. (plus sometimes you just can't in time.)

3. If the first part of the fight is not legal (plot), and thus doesn't happen in the DL. Why wouldn't he start out with all four hands?

1) Bosses that don't start at full health in-game don't get full health in the DL.  That could be vaguely silly in some cases.

2) You don't have to, but why the hell wouldn't you?

3) Oh hey a boss gets stronger because one of its forms is illegal...?  Yeah no.

It's like... say, XG Deus.  You can fight him head on, or take out his little support to make him weaker before even fighting him.  Which would I assume in the DL?  The latter.  Same with BoF5 Tantra.  There are probably other examples too, though I don't know if any are ranked.

[James_xeno]

Zophar: Blue Pillar (92% damage)
Souji: Attack?? (HT costs 25% of Souji's MHP)
Zophar: Drain (70%)
*Souji KO'd > Enduring Soul*
Zophar: lower left hand (75%-80%)

Souji can opt for Auto-Raku (of course, forcing his damage to be a measly ~1000ish then! Not to mention that Yoshitune gets Auto-Sukus with one only level of inheritance, so arguably evades Blue Pillar the first turn anyways).

You conclude that he'll be able to do this with only a 40% evasion boost?! I refer to one of my earlier posts, as it works well here too.

Dispel makes that strategy not work so well.... Also, how could Souji hope to evade unevadable spells in the first place?

---


Neither would change the outcome regardless. (auto-raku or auto-sukus)

Start

Zophar: Dispel
Souji: HT (< 25% of his HP)
Zophar: lower left hand (75%-80%)
*Souji KO'd > Enduring Soul*

Round 2

Zophar: Blue Pillar (92% damage)
Souji: Attack?? (HT costs 25% of Souji's MHP)
Zophar: lower left hand (75%-80%)
*Souji KO'd x2*

Fight over!

---


Edit: Yes, I know that Status Ball kind of makes this all moot anyways. But that's more of a game of chance/respect for a lot of people. I wanted to point out the fact that Zophar doesn't need Status Ball to win this.

[Dhyerwolf]

Souji then just switches to a Persona with the HP auto-regen and Makarakarn. He forces the hand to lie somewhat dormant, or else eat the reflection, then have Zophar lay somewhat dormant or kill at the wrong time.

Also, P4 stuff can evade everything. You may not see it like that (And I never quite know how exactly I see it), but certainly the argument is there (And has had similar arguments around long enough that it shouldn't be all that mysterious where the argument is coming from. FE and the universal evade has been around for quite some time).

40% Evasion boost would be fairly effective if he already had good evasion! (Which he may or may not! Don't believe notes specifically for that Persona are there, although there is likely some Persona with solid evade and access to Auto-Suku that he could start in if it was really relevant).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm pretty sure Yoshitsune himself should have quite strong evasion with the overkill Agl.

[Niu]

I'll throw in the universal evade argument. I'll say that it is not P4 evade can evade anything, but all P4 damage are evadable.
As it'll be unfair for games that don't evenc calculate accuracy for magic attacks.
I usally throw out evading magic all together unless a game has a specific states assigned for magic evade.

BTW, switching to persona with hp regen don't seem to be a very good idea. The few I can think off doesn't have much immediate good damage. And if you think dispel works against Makarakarn Souji has the danger of getting heal locked with the hands around.

[Talaysen]

Start

Zophar: Dispel
Souji: HT (< 25% of his HP)
Zophar: lower left hand (75%-80%)
*Souji KO'd > Enduring Soul*

Round 2

Zophar: Blue Pillar (92% damage)
Souji: Attack?? (HT costs 25% of Souji's MHP)
Zophar: lower left hand (75%-80%)
*Souji KO'd x2*

Fight over!

With Apt Pupil (really easy to get on Yoshitsune), Hassou Tobi only takes 12.5% HP.  Also, Souji can get Endure which gives him one extra revive, but only at 1 HP.  So...

Start

Zophar: Dispel
Souji: HT (< 12.5% of his HP)
Zophar: lower left hand (Souji at 7.5% at worst)

Round 2

Zophar: Blue Pillar (92% damage)
Souji: Enduring Soul
Souji: HT (< 12.5% of his HP)
Zophar: lower left hand (Souji at 7.5% at worst)

Round 3
Zophar: Blue Pillar (92% damage)
Souji: Endure
Souji: Attack with something (likely Panta Rhei)

Zophar's probably dead after the second Hassou Tobi but there is a third shot in there just in case you have HP respect here.  If Zophar doesn't attack on round 2 (so no HT, though it is possible to get Regenerate 3 on Yoshitsune but let's not assume that for now), Souji can use Mind Charge and use Panta Rhei on round 3 after using up Endure, which does about the same damage as HT.

[James_xeno]

Souji then just switches to a Persona with the HP auto-regen and Makarakarn. He forces the hand to lie somewhat dormant, or else eat the reflection, then have Zophar lay somewhat dormant or kill at the wrong time.

I'm generally inclined to believe that dispel would work on something like this to begin with. But the fact that P4 has (dispel) spells that work against Makarakarn, in game, make this not even a question anymore.

When is he going to cast Makarakarn? If it's not his first move then he eats hand after taking a Blue Pillar. If it is his first move, then he takes a Blue Pillar. (92% - 6% = 86% after round 1) Zophar dispels at the start of round two. If Souji tries Makarakarn again, the fight goes on till he runs out of SP. If not. Round two ends like round one would normally (^) with Souji KO'd x1, and then a second time in round three.

Also, P4 stuff can evade everything. You may not see it like that (And I never quite know how exactly I see it), but certainly the argument is there (And has had similar arguments around long enough that it shouldn't be all that mysterious where the argument is coming from. FE and the universal evade has been around for quite some time).

40% Evasion boost would be fairly effective if he already had good evasion! (Which he may or may not! Don't believe notes specifically for that Persona are there, although there is likely some Persona with solid evade and access to Auto-Suku that he could start in if it was really relevant).

I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this issue either. Not definitively at least. It may not be such a problem if we were talking about common generic spells. But not unique/uber endgame boss spells and skills, that don't ever miss in game.

---


*Why the f*** did we ever even rank someone like Souji?!

[Dhyerwolf]

Zophar attacking first means he's not dispelling. Yes, dispel would also take Makarakarn, but the hand doesn't really want to eat it's reflected spell, so it's sitting tight until Zophar dispels it. Makarakarn isn't a winning tactic here, it's to buy time to get the HP back for HT.

I don't see why Zophar's attacks would get any special tag. Lunar 2 magic doesn't check evade (Or does Lunar 2 evade not check magic!!?), and this is true of the puniest spell. P4 attacks check evade, and this is true of all the damage moves, even the final's.