[Day 3] Candystore Mafia, formerly Generic Boring Mafia

[Laggy]

Nah, my reasons for voting Delta are the same as Alex's (funnily enough), I just didn't state them outright. That was my snarky moment I suppose. I found it odd that that was the biggest hole that someone COULD poke me for, quite intentionally so, and you passed up on doing that and instead pressed with what I find a very transparent point.

So I'm not accused of dancing around the issue: voting for Delta because from past record he causes town the most damage and distraction. I obviously wouldn't know he would be lurkering, but that merely makes my vote hold.

[Hunter Sopko]

I guess it's the old saying "The tallest blade of grass is the first cut by the lawnmower". You responded to my callout and not Alex, so I pressed on you. Whee psychology.

Alex needs to be around more. Vague handwaving of guilt and tiptoeing back out by saying he needs more time to think isn't helping town and is usually a scum lurker strategy. Keeping my vote on him for now.

[Laggy]

Yoshiken and Magetastic are also falling off the radar by virtue of one post each plus newcomers to Mafia. I would like them to step up and speak whatever thoughts they have at the moment when possible.

[Magetastic]

*Hears his name, wakes from slumber*

Mm? Sorry, I've been busy with stuff. Where were we? Ahh, yes.

I don't really have many thoughts as of yet, as there isn't too much to go on really, and, honestly, I don't know any of you well enough to know what to look for. Day 1 and 2 are probably going to be me guessing more than anything else, as I ease my way into this. Though, I suppose that if we're going to go serious now...

##Unvote Bardiche

##Vote Delta

I say that either he's lurking, or he's just not there. And if he's not there, he's not gonna be there, and is merely an obstacle to justice. Therefore, lynch the sucker.

[Deltaflyer]

Sucker?

Why! I have NEVER, EVER been so THROUGHLY and UNQUESTIONABLY INSULTED by such a HYPOCRITICAL and FALLACIOUS MOCKERY of ME. I am TRULY and INCONTROVERTABLY ANNOYED with yourself, Mage. And, I am TOTALLY DISGUSTED!
Everyone else, Hi.

Yes, the above bit was for humor

--

Anyway. Apologies for my absence. I would have been online about 9 hours ago, but the internet hasn't been working until now.

It's day 1.  I have my vote on the person I currently consider most harmful to town, due to past experiences and the fact that he hasn't posted anything yet.  *snip*

As you say, it is day one. I could have any number of reasons for not being here. I was not lurking, otherwise my name would be at the bottom of the main page, since I do not hide my name. I am not suggesting that you specifically accused me of lurking, it is just saying to everyone, that I am not lurking.

However the second part intrigues me. Metagaming? This early? I know, not really much to go on, but still.

--

Just initial thoughts. Possibly more to follow.

[Bardiche]

Eh, what, Sopko? Your suspicions of me have abated? Wonderful, please explain why I was "suspicious" to you.

[Ranmilia]

Soppy man what is this.  Ace Reporter Style drips off your first major post and you press on both Laggy and myself for voting Delta and keep saying that we "need to get back in the game" when Delta hadn't even posted yet?  Ain't no game to get back into, bro, and I never been out of it!  Fact that you keep goin with this attitude really makin me start to question you now.  Like maybe you got some info we don't that you wanna get things goin early in the mornin.

(but it's day 1, most people have nothing on them, and while this is unusual I can't say it's scummy so...)

Magetastic on the other hand is actually seriously jumping at Delta for not being here, and at this point in the game, with Soppy throwing pebbles at the windows of Delta voters, that's a little huh.

##Unvote: Delta
##Vote: Magetastic

[Magetastic]

*mumble, grumble*

Now I don't know where to place my vote. Delta has shown himself to be present, and that means I lose my entire case against him.

##Unvote Delta

Well, I abstain until there's a real case set forth, or somebody cracks and lets something slip that shows them to be scum.

Ack, kept trying to post this, but people kept posting before me. Please take a look at this, Alex. I was just aiming at the only person I found even slightly suspicious, because there was only one person at the time. Now, I've got nothing, and I'm fully admitting it.

[Deltaflyer]

Nah, my reasons for voting Delta are the same as Alex's (funnily enough), I just didn't state them outright.

So I'm not accused of dancing around the issue: voting for Delta because from past record he causes town the most damage and distraction. I obviously wouldn't know he would be lurkering, but that merely makes my vote hold.

"I know Alex was metagaming. I am too. I just didnt want to mention it, you know."

"Oh hey! He isnt here! I have a reason to lynch!"

Not an attack on Laggy although just realised that Laggy would appear to also be metagaming here.

Excal: Only one jokepost at the start, needs to post and give input on current matters.

Alex: Appears to have disappeared for a 'I need to think' session. Excuse to lurk some? He and Laggy appear to agree on some matters. Namely me.

Laggy: As above but without the lurking bit.

Bard & Tonfa: Both need to slap themselves and start contributing, because now between them it appears to be simply joke-argue, counter-joke etc.

Yoshi: Falling off the radar, as a Laggy said.

Magetastic: Appears to be new to our game of mafia. (Welcome) Appears to be on the fence about issues, but understandable right now.

Myself: I dont have much to go on as per suspicions. Excal needs to post.

##VOTE:Excal

ALENINJA: I can agree with your point about Sopko pressing people. However, I don't like this line:

Like maybe you got some info we don't that you wanna get things goin early in the mornin.

That sounds to me like you are trying to paint Sopko as a Cop or something, which is impossible to tell since there has not been a night yet. I do not like some of the things that you are doing, but I dont see them as scummy.

[Yoshiken]

Yeah, I'm in the same damn situation as Mage. Generic "still alive" post here.
Current view of events... I'm seeing Bard's initial attack/defence as entire snark, no real reading either way. Mage seems to be doing everything I did in my first game of Mafia, which... ehh. Not a Town reading, but I'm definitely not seeing that as Mafia-like either.
So far, the only real readings I'm getting are from post styles, which are simply a case of personal dislike, methinks.

I'm also somewhat intrigued by Alex's vote on Delta that Delta's mentioned (and Laggy's for apparently the same reasoning.) Why is it Delta's so harmful to town, exactly? As far as I've seen, he's generally pretty helpful.

DeltaNinja: Seems to me like he's considering Mafia!Sopko (as much as is possible for Day1). Otherwise, your post... basically clarifies a few things I'd written up here. Also, agreed, Excal needs to post more.

[Magetastic]

I need to go, but before I do, I'd just like to try and cover the accusations set on me. And urge Bardiche and Excal to retract their votes on me if they're still joke votes. If not, then, uhm, hi Mr. Noose.

I am new to mafia, as I and a few others have said (Thank you for the welcome, Delta). Therefore, of course I'm going to be spotty about things. I'm not sure what are signs of what with, well, anybody. Except maybe Excal, though as I mentioned in my first post, he's a sneaky one. So going for Delta was the logical thing to do at the time, as it did, in fact, seem like he might not be able to make it. If you look back at my post wherein I accuse him, you'll note that I said that he's either lurking or not here, and that I was accusing him partially because I didn't want anybody to be fully absent from the game, as it would detract from the game. He then showed himself, and I retracted my vote. Now, I'm on the fence about who to vote out, because I have no real evidence or proof or anything to cast even shades of suspicion upon anyone.

[Ranmilia]

If you're new to Mafia then the first thing you need to know is that it's all posturing and figuring out people's real intentions, motivations and mindsets.  Day 1 is the rockiest time of pretty much any game because the town has zero information whatsoever to go on.  Everyone makes different arguments, but in the absence of any actual lynches and flips, there's no real way to tell the good from the bad except through methods like metagaming and bringing up standard practices established in past games.  These methods are most often very poor, unreliable at catching scum, and should not be heavily relied on past day 1 - but on day 1 there isn't anything else!

Anyone who's confused as to why people would vote Delta right off the bat... well, all I can say is "go read archived games Delta's participated in."  If you can't tell... no, you'll be able to tell.  He seems to have gotten off to a better start here though, which is good! 

In Mage's case here, hopping on the Delta wagon was bad, but unvoting and saying you've got nothing is worse.  Day 1 cases are expected to be bad, and it's generally accepted that we're not actually going to lynch scum day 1 unless the scum team REALLY screws up (although this has happened!), but making cases is still necessary to build a groundwork of observations about everyone for future days. 

Do I give Mage a pass for this, though, on the basis that any scumbuddy would coach him not to make such a newbie-scum mistake?  .... no I do not.  New and almost new players make up about half this game and so it is entirely possible that we're looking for two green scums.  And I don't like the "oh I unvoted, Alex please look at this and take your vote off me in return" thing.  If you think Delta is scummy, don't unvote him just to get pressure off yourself, and if you didn't think Delta was scummy why'd you vote him in the first place?

[Laggy]

On metagaming: I actually do not believe it is detrimental when drawing cases; just not to rely on it overly much. It is inevitable to an extent. In this case it's Day 1 and there wasn't that whole much else to draw on. As for why I voted Delta, I think that is self-explanatory if you were to read some past Mafia games, and I really would prefer delving into fine details as it would possibly read off like a personal attack. (And of course this just being a game, no personal offense meant to you, Delta.)

Yoshi, please do elaborate your thoughts post style. While it's hardly the only element to look for, why do you like or dislike the way certain people post? This is quite relevant as certain post styles, such as Walls of Text and Pages of Boundless Argument, are quite detrimental to town (in my opinion), and it's perfectly acceptable to voice or call out people on it.

[Laggy]

P.S. Alex, stop pre-empting me on what I was just going to say. Seriously.

[Ranmilia]

Pike off, you beat me to opening with Deltavote!  (and come play poker!)

[Excal]

huh.  Seems my post this morning failed to go through.  Annoying.  Regardless, game started right when closing/opening shifts happened so I can't post much until later.

[Yoshiken]

Laggy, when I say post-style, I mostly mean the tone of the posts. Examples that I've noticed (and that show why I said it's personal opinion only) are Sopko, who seems to be going on all-out narrow-minded offensive without mercy before suddenly ignoring it again. I'm guessing that was a joke with Bard, but with you, it seems somewhat odd to just let the whole thing fall suddenly.
The other one who's bugging me is Alex. His post about Mage's newbieness seems fine to me, but his other two posts... The first basically came down to "Laggy agrees with me, so slightly Town. Sopko doesn't, so slightly Mafia." The second, he seems to aimlessly throw in this idea of "extra knowledge" which I -really- don't like - unless you've got some extra knowledge of your own, I don't think it's fair to say "This person might know something extra!" for -pressing a single case slightly-.
I'd say Alex is probably my main suspect so far, and seeing as he's not at risk of lynch, I think I'm gonna:
##Unvote: Bardiche
##Vote: Sir Alex

He does, however, raise a nice point about Mage's "I unvoted so unvote me" post, and both are looking kinda shaky to me at the moment, but he also seemed to completely miss or ignore the fact that Mage said the vote was for pressure. Once Delta had posted, there was no reason to keep the vote there.
(Also, Mage, just a point I think you missed... If someone's inactive, they get mod-killed. No reason to lynch an inactive player.)

[Ranmilia]

^^^ see this?  This is why I don't like posting a lot of BS day 1.  People seize on to it and go "Oh so and so's posting stupid cases!"  Yeah, I'm ticked off with myself for falling for that bait, but daaaaang Soppy you are snakey there.  I'm gonna let that go over Mage for now.

##Unvote: Magetastic
##Vote: Sopko

[Laggy]

I think Yoshi is reading way too much into specific words which really don't imply all that much on Day 1 with his case on Alex. Yes, people agreeing with you tend to earn them points in your view. Nothing concrete is being laid out either way.

##Unvote: Delta for being present and posting content, although I'm not really too impressed with the analysis. Not a big fan of mega lists saying how you feel on everyone. Pursue cases and lay arguments. And a vote trail. Speaking of which.

##Vote: Magetastic

You don't have a vote on anyone minus a single one on Delta purely for lurking. While you state that you lack any leads at the moment, consider this incentive to take a stance. Unvotes should be accompanied with votes.

[Excal]

Edit: Here's the post I attempted to make.  Just date it for 7:30AM PST.

Alex, can't really see why Sopko's behaviour is even minorly scummy.  After all, he's taking people to task for removing themselves from the discussion at a point when we need all the discussion starters we can reasonably get.  Note that yourself and Cyril wouldn't really have cause for your second posts if it weren't for his calling you to task.

Tonfa, on the other hand, I'm less sure what to make of.  He very clearly called Bard to task for not taking jokevotes seriously, which...  when none of them have any actual merit besides mostly random accumulation, makes sense.  After all, what the heck is someone is supposed to say when the reasoning for these votes have no sound basis?  But, I can't tell if he's being serious, is just trying to drum up conversation, or is just joking around.

Regardless, of the people who are talking, he's the one who's looking the worst to me at present.

[Excal]

Alright, I've read things over a few times, and I'm now fairly happy with what I've seen.  Namely, I've got a real case.

##Unvote: MTastic, ##Vote: Franzisca von Tonfa

Everyone else has been either posting something in response to what's going on, or at least been honest about their having nothing to say.  However, this gentleman has, in his own fashion, taken the true path of lurking on Day 1.  His first post is fine, it's a verbose tearing down of a verbose joke vote.  Style is fine in such a phase.

What's less fine are his follow up posts, where he gets on Bard's case for...  not having a serious defense for votes that have no serious basis?  And then, several hours after Soppy, Cyril and Alex start their discussion, he not only doesn't have anything to add, but removes his vote with no new vote, no reason for the lack of new vote, and then makes a double post to request that people start posting more.

Heck, looking at his posts, I notice that the guy hasn't said anything about anyone else except for one mention of Delta in passing, as well as one mention of me, in the first DL Mafia game ever.

As for Sopko/Alex, aside from the WTF moment where Sopko joins the attack on Bard for not 100% committing to his joke vote, I think I'm comfortable leaving that as a Town/Town scuffle.

Now, I'm heading off to meet with friends, won't be back until late.  Hopefully there'll be more to say when I do return.

[Yoshiken]

Laggy, like I said, it's mostly personal opinion. That said, personal opinion is a good thing to run on when there's no other possible case. >.>

Excal, I'd say Tonfa does definitely look suspicious, yeah, although I personally see the previous thing with Bard as joke posts. The thing that's suspicious to -me- is that those are his only posts. I'll leave my vote where it is for now, but if Tonfa makes another post without purpose, I can see that vote switching over.

[Tonfa]

I was asleep for the entire time people have been actually saying something of consequence, I'm afraid. Shouldn't have forgotten this part of DL mafia.

You ask for why I had nothing to add to the few Sopko/Laggy/Alex posts? That is because they said nothing and already had their (weak) counter-arguments presented against themselves. I've no interest in regurgitating that.

The point of interest here is how people react to the cases made instead of the cases themselves because every case so far is terrible. The one on Magetastic would have merit if it wasn't his first game, which just makes reading a player in the early going near impossible by conventional methods. Benefit of the newbie clause, for now.

Let's see. I like Yosh for trying to wring out whatever information he can out of these dry posts. While I don't like Excal's case (well duh), it looks like him trying to pick the best of the worst. LagAlex play like one mind which convinces me one of them is town because that would be a hilariously impractical gambit as scum. Delta's list says nothing. Bardiche needs to get back to posting, he is European as well so I can see him missing page 2.

Sopko is conspicuously absent from the proceedings after getting his fingerpoints shot down despite being active in the Arkham topic.  What's up?

##Vote: Sopko

[Carthrat]

Votecount!

Delta (0): Alex, Laggy, Magetastic
Excal (1): Magetastic, Delta
SirAlex (2): Sopko, Yoshiken
Magetastic (2): Bardiche, Excal, Alex, Laggy
Bardiche (0): Magetastic, Yoshiken, Tonfa
Sopko (2): Alex, Tonfa
Tonfa (1): Excal

15 hours remaining!

[Magetastic]

Alright, alright. Incentive noted. And yes, Yoshi, I completely missed that. I'm going to be taking a closer look at the rules in the morning. While I'm still not entirely comfortable making a vote now, I'll put up a basic listing of my thoughts about who I believe to be possi-scum, and then follow up tomorrow when I've got some sleep under my belt and can think more rationally.

Laggy, well, I'm not sure if his posts are actually a 'get things going' or if he's trying to throw out some false leads/clues here.

Alex is definitely looking a little shaky, especially since he still seems to be after me when Yoshi noted (before I could) that my unvote on Delta wasn't a 'I unvoted so unvote me!' but rather a 'I thought Laggy had a point with the lurking, guess I was wrong. Also, he's active now.' If you re-read my unvote post, I make my mention to you after noting that I had already tried to post everything before it, but there were a couple posts that came before I could do that. Although, yeah. I shouldn't have made a serious vote on Delta without something more substantial. That's a fair argument there, and so I can kinda see why you'd think I'm scum.

Yoshi suffers a little bit from Alex Syndrome, in that he seems to have an eye out for me as scum despite being the one to note that my unvote on Delta wasn't a 'I unvoted, so unvote me!' thing.

...
Actually, thinking about it, some of the better cases (from my PoV) have been made against Alex. My eye is still out on Laggy for all the 'initiative boosts' but... for now...

##Vote Alex

This is as much as a 'he rubs me the wrong way for not enough reason' thing as it is a 'hey, there's actually something that might be going on here.'