[Day 3] Candystore Mafia, formerly Generic Boring Mafia

[Tonfa]

Are you seriously saying anyone who suspects you is scummy? 'cause that's what I'm getting from that post.

Also I like your extremely vague "throwing up false leads/clues" about Laggy without quantifying in ANY way what they are.

Newbie defense shield is off. Keeping my vote on Soppy but Mage jumped into the top of my scumlist right there.

[Laggy]

Posting because I'm still up but not awake enough to do major analysis. Quick summation of things though.

Deadline is approaching, so it would be ideal to line up the cases. At present votecount they look like Soppy, Alex and Magetastic. Unless someone brings something really compelling I am going to pursue these for the time being.

Soppy: I actually agree with Excal despite with him going after me at first that he curried some discussion, and I in fact acknowledged this. Criticized for his narrow offensive approach and how he quickly drops it to pursue another. However I find this is about as productive as you can get in Day 1 and find it pro-townish if anything. Tonfa is right that he needs to post again though.

Alex: Scary mutual agreement aside... I'm looking at the votes. Jokevote by Soppy (justified later because he calls Alex out along with me, okay). Yoshi votes for post style complaint which I find trivial. Mage votes because generic "I find this case the most compelling". Not really convinced here, doesn't exactly clear him but not seein' the case.

Magetastic: Looks bad to me because it looks like he hopped on the Alex train, backpedaled on reasons, isn't really GIVING any reasons, blanket accusation at me doesn't really help either. Yeah, I've been mainly prodding and poking (like Soppy), because that's all you can really do Day 1. On the other hand his vote record is on Delta for lurkering, an unvote, and finally on what looks like the most recent trend train. What exactly am I doing that's scummish in getting people to vote and play? Please elaborate.

Annnd my vote's already on him, so I think I'm comfortable where that is.

[Ranmilia]

Sleeping now, will be back for deadline though.  I fully admit switching to Soppy was frustration.  He/Mage are my two candidates for the moment though and man I can't really go with one over the other of em.  Ehhhhh man that Mage post there though...

okay Tonfa ninjas with what I was going to say about it.

Mage, in the event you are town, you should probably know that you are phrasing your cases in the absolute scummiest terms possible.  More to the point you seem to be *thinking* in the scummiest ways possible which is why I am doubting you are town enough to go back to you here over "man what the heck is he playing at?" Soppy.

##Unvote: Soppy
##Vote: Magetastic

Just going through this last post...
1. You should ALWAYS be comfortable making A vote in a normal game situation.
2. "I'll post a list and then follow up later" is not the most pro town way to get your suspicions out there, to say the least.  It's a really convenient way for scum to look like they're participating without actually doing so, since your list is nearly meaningless to anyone else without the followup, which you can tailor after the fact from seeing responses.  If you are town there's no reason not to fire off what you've got now and make a case rather than a list.  Or in addition to a list.  Especially since the game is only two pages long, it's not like there's a lot to read through here...
3. Your sentence on Laggy is a perfect example - "Well, he may be townie, or he may be scummy, I'm not sure."  (aside - townie.  Getting good discussion started is good stuff.  (aside to aside - contrast with Soppy?))

4. The paragraph on me... I can't even tell what it's saying to be quite honest, it's full of the type of doubletalk and convolution that I skip right over because getting embroiled in that stuff is plain not helpful.  But I'll tell you what, though - "Oh, I was just following Laggy's bandwagon on a lurker charge, I'm hopping off because I decided it was too trumped up" and then attacking me for still being on your case?  Not much better than plain old unvoting him and attacking me for being on your case.  In fact it's worse.  And the only other person you mention is Laggy, whom you have an eye out for because he boosted initiative, which is generally a townie thing to do...

Rambling too much.  Sleep.

Good grief laggy ninjas now.  Says... same stuff with less words.  SCARY MUTUAL AGREEMENT.

[Magetastic]

I am... confused, to say the least. And tired. And had no idea I was actually phrasing my stuff in the scummiest way possible. I'll try to keep this brief, as trying to explain myself earlier only led to self-incrimination.

I was typing that as I thought, and after Yoshi, my brain started thinking about what others had been saying about Alex, and that the only defense I really saw for him was 'him and Laggy seem to be of one mind, which seems too sketchy if they're not both town.' Whereas you're both (I think) experienced players, and while nothing aside from the big initiative thing and the Alex/Laggy thing going on jumped out at me about you, Laggy, that still stood out.

Alex, on the other hand, has been hounding me, and completely misinterpreting/ignoring things I've said. (Such as "You only mentioned me and Laggy" despite me mentioning Yoshiken, too, as a more recent example) And while it does seem that I'm just targeting people who have been voting for me, I'm not. I'm responding to them, yes. Though, I'll be honest. I'm a little confused as to why you think I'm scum because I'm trying to think about who I cast my vote for, and not just voting semi-randomly.

I think I'm keeping my vote where it is. Especially since there's a chance it's just a town/town thing, there's a chance one is taking an extremely risky town/scum gambit, but there's also a chance they're both scum, and are discussing this. The experience and the Alex/Laggy thing they got going on just really... jumps out at me. It almost feels too coordinated.

Tonfa, I can't really respond to, because re-reading what I wrote, yeah. It does look really bad. I should've continued it from there before I went to my vote. My bad.

I hope that can clear some of the air, there.

[Magetastic]

Forgot to mention that I also have my eye on Bard, as he seems to have completely disappeared since he got people to stop voting for him. Though that could just be timing.

[Laggy]

Okay so

1. Tonfa was the one mentioning the LagAlex mind, and he actually said it was likely one of us was townie. Point quibble. Ironic since you rip on Alex for "completely misinterpreting/ignoring" your mention of Yoshi on... something I don't even know what.

2. The thing about "trying to think" is that it is such an easy shield for scum to hide behind and not take stances. Proactive townies are good townies. By all means, think, but do not be indecisive. I have stated the value of having a voting record several times. With no record there is little that can be drawn about that person later, which favors scum.

3. "So there's a chance it could be 1/3, or it could be 1/3, or it could be 1/3, and they look so much like they're working together they must be."

Somehow I can't buy the merits of this argument. (I know Alex, in fairness, and it's just true that we agree on a lot of things in general, Mafia included, but... really? Making scumteam conclusions on Day 1?) This just looks like flailing.

Really sleeping now dammit.

[Magetastic]

Alright. So you poke me and prod me until I give in and be as pro-active as possible. And then everything I do and say gets torn down. I'm posting my thoughts here. Whether you agree or not is up to you, but I'm just doing what you've been trying to get me to do. Both times I make a vote,  and be proactive that way, you dismiss it and say that I'm not being proactive enough. And then, when you tear down everything I've said, saying I'm not providing any reasons, I give you reasons. And you dismiss those, too. You say that my conclusions are flawed and I'm making 'scummy decisions' because you think my reasoning is faulty. When many people have mentioned, multiple times, that it is day 1, and therefore there won't be much to go on. I'm not even going to 'use the newbie shield' as that only gets me backwards.

Also, I know others had mentioned it first. And yes, I did have a slight misread. My bad. I admit it. Oh well. At least I'm addressing most everything thrown at me, even though I know it'll probably look scummy. I really don't care. I like to be thorough. It's who I am. Sue me.

So. If you want to finger me, claiming it as a push towards activity, and then dismiss everything I say and do, despite it being what you've asked for, then I really don't see much point in arguing with you anymore, as it's as good as talking to a brick wall.

[/rant]

[Excal]

Eh, the argument of "This guy said something really convincing, until it totally wasn't and so I accused him of being scum" is bad to start with.  And that is apparently your case on Delta, followed by your case on Cyril.  As for your case on Alex, so far as I can tell, it's based on two things.  The first is buying into the hype that we get every game of "Oh dear lord, Alex is acting like Alex!  Lynch him!!!" which is fairly absurd.  The other is that you find him scummy for...  finding you scummy?  For daring to call you out?  For not actually taking you at your word in a game where two members are expected to lie through their teeth and you don't know who they are?

As for your talking about other people?  No, you have only talked about Cyril and Alex.  Sure, you've mentioned Yoshi, but not because of any merits as to whether or not he's town.  You've mentioned him in so far as he's been defending you, and solely using his quotes in your defense.  Your mentions of him have strictly been "He thinks I'm Town, so why don't you?"

So, yeah.  Misinterpretation?  Not so much misinterpretation as it is Alex generally taking what you say in the worst possible way.  And don't feel singled out, he does it to everyone.  It's how he plays.  And he's one of the best players on this forum because of it.  He's not always right, but it works, however much it sucks to be on the wrong end of it.

So, here's my main advice if you're town.  Make your defense where you can, and when you can't (as you seem to be at the point of) then move on.  Town gains nothing from you covering your own ass all day.  It just means that you get to spend the next day doing the exact same thing.  Instead, do your best to find someone who is scum.

Sadly, all of this kerfuffle gives me precisely a null read on Alex...  for all that, yeah.  If it's really going to be down to Soppy, Alex and Mage, it does look like Mage is going to be tops on my list.

[Magetastic]

Again: Going off of interpretation and gut instincts with this one, and I don't have enough on anyone else to really switch my vote. As has been mentioned, Day 1.

And, alright. Alright. Coming at this from a "If I'm town, then..." standpoint has gotten me backwards. So let's come at this from a "If I were scum, then..." standpoint.

If I were scum, and there are only two, then why has nobody actually made any moves to defend me. Yoshi's done the best job so far, and he still said that I was suspicious. If I were scum, what would the other scum gain by allowing me to die? Then the town needs a lucky kill and it's game over. It's way too risky to really be worth taking. If I were scum, then somebody would have made a move to defend me, even if a small one. And I'm not talking double-edged, like Yoshi's. I'm talking about real defense. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And if it makes sense to you, then by all means, tell me how.

Also, Excal, you've got the details a little fuzzy there with the whole Deltavote thing. Though I'll attribute that to sleep deprivation. I am also a little curious as to where you got the number '2' for how many scum there are. That seemed kinda exact to me. Clarification if possible, please.

[Excal]

If you were scum, and your buddy wasn't able to save you, then all the attempt would really do would paint a big ol' target to him.  After all, even townies have a hard time surviving the mistake of defending scum too hard.  Besides, some of the easiest scum wins we've seen here have involved one scum being the driving force behind his only partner's lynch on Day 1, and then coasting on that for the rest of the game, often to the point where the last two townies consider the scum to be enough beyond reproach that they're voting for each other.

As for how I know there's two people?  Simple math, if a 9 player game, 3 scum means 6 town, or likely 4 town on Day 2, complete with LYLO.  And 1 scum means that we have a vig survivor instead of real scum.  Part of how scum play differently and can be caught is the fact that they have knowledge they shouldn't, and that knowledge changes how they play the game.  And it's those changes that you have to spot.

And that point also brings us back to your first question.  Your scum buddy wouldn't want to jump out and defend you because a defense for no reason is a bloody scummy thing indeed.

[Magetastic]

When you put it that way, yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that.

Well, I have no solid cases whatsoever, and my method of deduction is entirely wrong for this form of mafia. So, I guess Day 1 is going to end full of drama, and with me getting to know Mr. Noose very, very well.

Though I will
##Unvote Alex
until I have a better idea of where to place my vote. (AKA: It really doesn't matter at this point, I'm sure, so who really cares)

[Tonfa]

If you genuinely are town, I'd like to give you the tip that the woe is me attitude is absolute worst one you can take since it helps no one.

Waiting on Soppy before any further conclusions.

[Deltaflyer]

On Mage:

I am confused as to your alignment. I don't know if you are bad scum or bad townie, because:

Alright, alright. Incentive noted. And yes, Yoshi, I completely missed that. I'm going to be taking a closer look at the rules in the morning. While I'm still not entirely comfortable making a vote now, I'll put up a basic listing of my thoughts about who I believe to be possi-scum, and then follow up tomorrow when I've got some sleep under my belt and can think more rationally.

Laggy, well, I'm not sure if his posts are actually a 'get things going' or if he's trying to throw out some false leads/clues here.

Alex is definitely looking a little shaky, especially since he still seems to be after me when Yoshi noted (before I could) that my unvote on Delta wasn't a 'I unvoted so unvote me!' but rather a 'I thought Laggy had a point with the lurking, guess I was wrong. Also, he's active now.' If you re-read my unvote post, I make my mention to you after noting that I had already tried to post everything before it, but there were a couple posts that came before I could do that. Although, yeah. I shouldn't have made a serious vote on Delta without something more substantial. That's a fair argument there, and so I can kinda see why you'd think I'm scum.

Yoshi suffers a little bit from Alex Syndrome, in that he seems to have an eye out for me as scum despite being the one to note that my unvote on Delta wasn't a 'I unvoted, so unvote me!' thing.

...
Actually, thinking about it, some of the better cases (from my PoV) have been made against Alex. My eye is still out on Laggy for all the 'initiative boosts' but... for now...

##Vote Alex

This is as much as a 'he rubs me the wrong way for not enough reason' thing as it is a 'hey, there's actually something that might be going on here.'

Hokay. What are these 'false leads' or 'clues' that Laggy has been throwing out? Is this just a scummy attempt to get attention away from you? It appears to be, since you still haven't described them by this stage:

Well, I have no solid cases whatsoever,

On the underlined parts, two posts above, you appear to belittle what Alex was doing, however in the same post you also appear to be throwing an accusation at Yoshi for the same thing. On the third underlined part, you almost make it seem like an OMGUS, which is still not good play. Even if this is a desparate attempt to get yourself saved, it is still unhelpful to town. I know, I learned that the hard way in previous games.

--

Actually, thinking about it, some of the better cases (from my PoV) have been made against Alex. My eye is still out on Laggy for all the 'initiative boosts' but... for now...

Here, you seem to attempt to say that Alex is scum. However, just because people have cases on them, it does not mean that they are better. You may be trying to paint Alex here.

--

Magetastic to me seems to be scummiest at the moment. Currently, he has no cases (and hasnt formed one all game, to my view), so:

##UNVOTE:Excal,

##VOTE: Magetastic

As far as I am aware, that puts him at -1 to hammer.

Quick run-through of other people:

Alex: Wants to press people, pushing Mage around a bit. Seems to be generally town to me. Some good ideas, but I don't know. Leaning town.

Laggy: Neutral, seems to be mostly agreeing or re-phrasing what Alex says, in my opinion.

Mage: Well, this sums it up for me:

If I were scum, and there are only two,

Tonfa: Not really contributing much, seems set on a Lag/Alex... thing.

Heck, looking at his posts, I notice that the guy hasn't said anything about anyone else except for one mention of Delta in passing, as well as one mention of me, in the first DL Mafia game ever.

 I have to agree with Excal here. Although you may have been asleep, you were present when Sopko/Laggy/Alex started, and no comment on them, and still you appear to be focusing on Mage, apart from:

Waiting on Soppy before any further conclusions.

Which is simply an excuse for not contributing in my view, but having never played with Tonfa before, I don't know. I know that is metagaming (in a weird way) but I don't know. Got my eye on Tonfa.



Lag/Alex possibilities: One might be trying to buddy up to the other for later, but I simply cannot see what is going on, and I'm not going to start that kind of shitstorm thinking right now.

Bard: Seems to have stayed in the jokevote phase, needs to post soon in all honesty. Only one post that seems serious, which asks Sopko for reasons as per his 'suspicions'.

Sopko: As before.

Excal: Seems to be trying to guess the game setup, with maths. However seems to have failed to read the Topic Starter.

Third Party (None will exist in a game with less than 13 people in it, guaranteed.)
Serial Killer (May be bulletproof, may flip town to investigations.)
Survivor (Doesn't need to be eliminated by either side, may possess any other role.)

Hmph.

Yoshiken: Appears to be trying to half-defend Mage, whilst Mage is seemingly painting Yoshi as scum. Based on Mage's behaviour towards them (assuming there are two members of the mafia), I can see a Yoshi/Mage or Mage/Tonfa scumteam right now, but I don't want to go to far ahead with my thinking right now, instead preferring to focus on current and past events.

[Carthrat]

Votecount!

Delta (0): Alex, Laggy, Magetastic
Excal (0): Magetastic, Delta
SirAlex (2): Sopko, Yoshiken, Magetastic
Magetastic (4): Bardiche, Excal, Alex, Laggy, Alex, Delta
Bardiche (0): Magetastic, Yoshiken, Tonfa
Sopko (1): Alex, Tonfa
Tonfa (1): Excal

10 hours remaining! Magetastic is at L-1!

[Tonfa]

I can certainly see what you were saying about Delta.

[Yoshiken]

Mage: Well, this sums it up for me:

If I were scum, and there are only two,

To be fair, Excal had just said in the post before "..a game where two members are expected to.." referring to the Mafia.

Excal: Seems to be trying to guess the game setup, with maths. However seems to have failed to read the Topic Starter.

He... did? As far as I can tell, he's assumed there's only one scumteam, and that it most likely has two players due to the numbers in-game, which makes a lot of sense to me...


Tonfa's posted a little more now (I knew you were asleep/inactive for at least part of the last few pages, but not -all- of it, right?), but I'm still getting no reading at all.
Currently thinking that either one of Laggy/Alex is possibly Mafia, almost certainly not both. Day1 case, though, so will hold little ground past Day1, methinks.
More importantly, Sopko & Mage. Sopko -really needs to reappear fast-. A train built up against him, he disappeared and suddenly so does the attention. No matter what course of action he takes now, it's not looking good for him.
Mage... Okay. Some of the earlier mistakes, I could pass off for being new at the game. But... you were told repeatedly: Make progress. Promote conversation and cases. And, more importantly, -always- aim to have -someone- you're aiming for. So what do you do after all this? You remove your vote from Alex and leave us with no case whatsoever. If you weren't at -1 to lynch, I think my vote would be moving about now.

So, looking towards Bard (who, as has been noted, hasn't posted much content either), Sopko & Mage here: who do you think are currently the prime suspects? (I would say Tonfa as well, but he's already posted it not long ago. I just still can't get a reading from it. =/)

TonfaNinja: ...Says nothing, but I like the Psyduck. =P

[Deltaflyer]

Excal: Seems to be trying to guess the game setup, with maths. However seems to have failed to read the Topic Starter.

He... did? As far as I can tell, he's assumed there's only one scumteam, and that it most likely has two players due to the numbers in-game, which makes a lot of sense to me...

What I meant by that was his 1 scum, one survivor vig theory for the setup. Apologies for not clarifying enough.

Excal: Seems to be trying to guess the game setup, with maths. However seems to have failed to read the Topic Starter.

Third Party (None will exist in a game with less than 13 people in it, guaranteed.)
Serial Killer (May be bulletproof, may flip town to investigations.)
Survivor (Doesn't need to be eliminated by either side, may possess any other role.)

...Yeah.

[Bardiche]

Okay guys, I'm back! Sorry, I don't have the wealth of free time I used to have any more! Well, let's remove my jotevote and go for srs bsns now.

##UNVOTE: Magetastic
##VOTE: Sopko

Yeah, I've seen the stuff about Alex and Magetastic. But honestly? I think Sopko's a bit worse. For one, he's gone inactive now, and while I was as well I'd like to hope that this vote'll at least draw him out if he's lurking. Since I also think he's scum, I'm pretty confident with putting my vote on him.

The first impression Sopko leaves to me is commentator style. He's also misrepresenting the part about me being 'pressured'. Sure, it might've been a joke by that stage, and I've considered it... but it could've also gone bad, and I fail to understand his part of 'abate suspicions'. How had I racked up suspicions by refusing to refute jokevotes?

Tonfa is another who leaves me terribly confused since he wanted me to actually defend myself, but unlike Sopko he's contributing now, and I'm more interested in a Sopko lynch presently.

RE: Magetastic

Willing to chalk it up to newbie mistakes. I find it a bit alarming people are spending so much attention on him without looking at the other possibilities. Certainly Sopko merits some attention as well!

Excal, you say you prefer Mage over Sopko and Alex, if I understand correctly! Can you share thoughts on Sopko? How do you feel about him right now?

Delta, my man, my bro. Seriously, what? You're misreading Excal, I think, can you go back and read his post again? I agree that it's distracting and worthless discussion he's having with Magetastic re: setups, but really Delta, are you just going to draw that out by talk about it again?

[Hunter Sopko]

Re: Bard- Joke vote or not, implying your vote is serious then backing off with a "PS- I'm joking! ::Insert Krusty laugh::" is never helpful and always suspicious. It was meant as a discussion icebreaker and I can't say I've seen anything wrong with you since.

I honestly got a null read from Mage at first glance. The only red flag I personally saw was his "If I'm scum, why am I not being defended?" song and dance. Which is bad juju usually. Re-reading after taking some of the points in the topic into account, he does seem to be playing from the newbie scum playbook check by check.

My joke vote against Alex turned into a serious one due to his first couple posts of the game. (Though I know he'll probably be mad at me afterwards), they just had a very strange tone to me. Since the second page has started, he's gone back to SirAlex the Supersleuth instead of SirAlex the SuperSnark, so... pro-town in that he's spurring good discussion day one, pro-scum in that he seems to be train hopping despite being a discussion leader.

All things being equal, I guess I'll vote to get rid of the player with less experience this time and see how that ends up.

##Unvote: Alex
##Vote: Magetastic

[Ranmilia]

Awake again.  Not seeing anything really changing.  Am I interpreting Mage's actions in the worst way possible? ... probably, yeah.  Thing is, it's day 1, I don't see anyone as worse (Soppy is close but not topping and that's a big can of worms to open), and most to the point, Mage hasn't done anything that I can look the other way on and construe as particularly protown.  On the "what if he's town" side the only thing I can come up with is the old "too new/dumb to be scum" defense, and in a game with this many newish players I'm not extending anyone credit on that.

Other people... Yoshi is heavily playing the newbie card and not really coming up with much beyond what other people have said, but that's not unexpected.  Laggy is apparently my thoughtbrother, which is weird but I have no real cause to suspect him at the moment.  Got a townie vibe on Tonfa so far just out of tone of discussion, and to a lesser extent Excal.  Bard no real read on.  Delta is Delta. 

Soppy.... Soppy left a real sore taste in my mouth with his first major post, and if that had been later in the game I'd be calling for his lynch.  But it WAS his first major post on day 1.  He's ninjaing me now and saying... the same thing about me that I can say about him.  Good discussion, no real red flags there now, and yet it's very nonconfrontational and says almost word for word "Well Mage is an easy train so I'll move onto it and see what happens."  Augh.  EYE OF STARING.

In a 9 man billed as generic and boring we're dealing with two scum guaranteed by the way, Rat said no third parties whatsoever in <13 players.

Ordinarily I would let this go without saying, but since Mage is new - you're floating around -1 to hammer, deadline's not far and it's and looking like you're going to be lynched today.  You should probably roleclaim.

[Tonfa]

Well, Sopko turned up. His absence there still looks bad to me and I don't really get what the Alex feud/case is about. Eh. Definitely need to relook. Only player I'm feeling as solid town right now is Laggy, anyway.

On the scum side, nothing Mage said is really making my opinion waver here, I'm perfectly willing to hammer closer to deadline.

[Laggy]

is right.

I sorta kiiiinda see the case on Soppy but... not really. Like I said, I'm not thoroughly bothered by his playstyle which seems to be the leading charge, and honestly the most notable thing that he's done is leap onto the end of the Mage train, which looks kind of bad. But at only Day 1 I'm not willing to read that hard either way; I certainly approve of productive use of time for town and not resorting to the deadline to actually get anything done.

Pretty much waiting on the Mage roleclaim. (Somewhat out-of-game, regardless of what you're playing, don't take things too personally, man. It's an argumentative game, and you have to understand that critique WILL come, disagreements WILL happen, and you can't let it frustrate you from making your stance. Sorry if I came off as too hard; Excal and Tonfa pretty much summed up what I would have replied though.)

[Yoshiken]

Other people... Yoshi is heavily playing the newbie card and not really coming up with much beyond what other people have said, but that's not unexpected.

I... wait, where? Newbie card? As far as I can see, you're the second person to mention me being relatively new to Mafia, and the first one wasn't me, so I'm not too sure what you mean here. Care to elaborate?

Yeah, definitely Mage roleclaim time. He's pretty much done for without it.

The case on Sopko started off as playstyle, yeah. The thing that bugs me is that the case built up and he disappeared from the game while still being active around the forums, then suddenly reappears once the case has turned to inactivity/lurking. That seems... really suspicious to me, at least.

[Magetastic]

Roleclaim? What's that?

And I didn't mean my last one to be a 'woe is me post,' sorry.

And I guess that saying "I don't think the same as pretty much any of you" won't help me one bit?

[Bardiche]

Roleclaim is revealing what role you play.

I'm still after Sopko. Especially now that he jumps on Magetastic for... what, exactly? Blatant jumping on a train or what? Somehow this game feels more vicious than normally to me.