[Day 3] Candystore Mafia, formerly Generic Boring Mafia

[Magetastic]

May as well. Vanilla town.

[Magetastic]

Slightly less than three hours to go. Is everyone done with their discussion/voting, or are we gonna keep this up?

[Ranmilia]

Pretty much.  Nothing new to say here. 

[Hunter Sopko]

I'm still after Sopko. Especially now that he jumps on Magetastic for... what, exactly? Blatant jumping on a train or what? Somehow this game feels more vicious than normally to me.

I wouldn't call it vicious, especially compared to past games. I has been pretty productive for Day 1 though.

There are certain logical arguments that Mage has used that people who are playing scum for the first time has run down point by point. The first and most major to me is trying to reason that if he was scum, there would be another scum coming to his defense because it's day 1 and it would put scum in a bad position if he were lynched. This is just a flawed argument for many reasons, and even if he's town it's a hard sell and can lead to massive WIFOMing. He's also been throwing a vote wherever and whenever he wants and changing it five seconds later when a better opportunity comes up for... not great reasoning. He's just kindof been coasting and whenever asked for his own opinion, it's always "well, he could be scum, but he might not be!". Tiptoeing around stuff like that is usually to avoid saying anything incriminating. Scum are the ones that need to worry about incrimination.

Yeah, switching from Alex to Mage was suspicious. So what? I'm trying to find scum here, and there are good reasons to go with Mage for Day 1. Better reasons than I have for Alex at the moment. Convenient? Maybe. But I'm not gonna be afraid of how it looks if I think the person I'm switching to is more likely to be scum.

[Magetastic]

*sigh* So it goes, I suppose. Made plenty of bad decisions, and that's gonna lead to me being lynched. Nature of the game. Also, shouldn't have talked so much when I was so sleepy. Definitely a stupid move there. Anyways.

I will say that I am very much unused to e-mafia, and so the playstyle is completely different from what I'm used to -- namely, taking a step back to try and deduce, instead of rushing headlong into things, is how I play. It just kinda is. And rushing headlong into things is generally a scummy way of doing things, from what I'm used to.

##Vote Delta

After getting the votes on him removed, he promptly vanished, and then re-appeared to do not much but talk about what was already settled, which seems like stalling and/or distraction to me. Definitely scummy.


Soppy ninja'ed a post in, and my only response, is that I've been worried about incrimination because I don't like dying (who does?) and I got right up to being one of the candidates from the get-go, pretty much. I have spent almost all of day 1 tied for the noose, and now I'm heading straight for it. Though I attribute the more recent direction to poor choices on my part.

[Tonfa]

Right, let's do this.

##Unvote
##Vote: Magetastic

[Carthrat]

Votecount!

Delta (1): Alex, Laggy, MagetasticMagetastic
Excal (0): Magetastic, Delta
SirAlex (1): Sopko, Yoshiken, Magetastic
Magetastic (5):Bardiche, Excal, Alex, Laggy, Alex, Delta, Sopko, Tonfa
Bardiche (0): Magetastic, Yoshiken, Tonfa
Sopko (1): Alex, Tonfa, Bardiche
Tonfa (1): Excal

HAMMER!

Magetastic was LYNCHED!

He was a VANILLA TOWNIE!

Night ACTIONS!

[Carthrat]

IT IS DAY 2!

Excal is dead! On Night 1! Is this even newsworthy? Is anyone surprised?

Excal was VANILLA TOWN!

Players Remaining

1. Bardiche
3. Tonfa
4. Yoshiken
6. DELTAAAAAAAAAAA
7. Laggy
8. Sopko
9. SirAlex

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch! 48 hours remaining!

[Bardiche]

##VOTE: Sopko

I would've liked you to convey reasons for switching votes before switching votes, not after you've been pressed for one.

The subtle selling of town being allowed to do suspicious things also doesn't sit well with me:

He's just kindof been coasting and whenever asked for his own opinion, it's always "well, he could be scum, but he might not be!". Tiptoeing around stuff like that is usually to avoid saying anything incriminating. Scum are the ones that need to worry about incrimination.

Yeah, switching from Alex to Mage was suspicious. So what? I'm trying to find scum here, and there are good reasons to go with Mage for Day 1. Better reasons than I have for Alex at the moment. Convenient? Maybe. But I'm not gonna be afraid of how it looks if I think the person I'm switching to is more likely to be scum.

Town also need to care about not appearing suspicious. This isn't just a scum-only thing. Saying "scum are the ones that need to worry about incrimination" and then going "I don't care if I look suspicious anyway!" makes me feel awfully bad about you, and more confident in wanting to get you lynched.

[Yoshiken]

Yeah, I'm still eyeing those same few people from yesterday.

Alex, could you go back and answer my question from my last post please? I asked you to elaborate, and your next post was "Nothing new to say here."

Also, seconding Bard on town not wanting to look incriminating. Hell, I should think that's fairly obvious - any Townie who looks incriminating gets lynched, and that's one step closer to Mafia win. (Think this should be even more obvious now, after Day 1. >.>)

[Tonfa]

After rereading, my suspicions go to Mr. Sopko.

Open the game with jokevote, post some blatantly strained cheerleading, for some reason get on Laggy's case for his jokevote, make a strange comment about Bardiche (which is justified only much later when he is called out on it), quickly slip out of that and into hounding Alex, disappear, come back much later slipping out of his case and word a vote on Mage in a totally non-committed wishy-washy way(and again, this is justified only when he is called out on it).

What the heck is this?

There was something I didn't like about Sopko's style that I couldn't put my finger on, but putting it in a list form like that verifies to me that every post of his after the first has been scummy. I know Sopko's a decently experienced player, but to be honest he's never been able to shake off his scumtells when playing scum, which is why I'm not willing to even think about passing this as "nah he wouldn't be that blatant."

I'm willing to give'im the second vote because man what.

##Vote: Sopko

[Hunter Sopko]

All I'll say about that is that, Bard, is what I've said. Catching scum supercedes EVERYTHING. I'm not going to keep my vote on someone who I think is less likely to be scum just because it's suspicious to change my vote.

My attention goes to Tonfa this turn. Re-reading the topic, his play is what jumped out at me the most. He was absent for long stretches of time, his posts are almost always centered on me exclusively with very little dancing around other major issues, voting Mage being chief among them. So Tonfa, why DID you vote Mage? Cause I'm not seeing much explanation yesterday, even post-vote.

Delta also takes a looooooong time to get into the game, and even longer to make a substantive post. Two of them being list posts that just summarize. He DOES manage in a few unique points other than these, but I do want to follow up on him. Delta: who do you think is most likely to be scum now?

My gut also wants to keep on Alex, but I can't really support this with evidence so I'll leave it at that.

NINJA'D by Tonfa: My mind works weirdly in mafia. I notice odd things and I call people out on them. Sometimes they seem inconsequential and they can be, but it does work. But other than that, basically you're saying I'm scummy because I... saw things odd about people and went after them for it? Better that than someone who waved off responsibility of catching scum because I wasn't around.

[Tonfa]

I'll bite.

absent for long stretches of time

Oh. Yes, like that one I time I slept. Lovely use of plural here when plural cases do not exist. Unless 4 hours counts as a long absence somehow. Funny that you would bring it up though considering you were absent for over a 23 hour period during a 48 hour day though!

his posts are almost always centered on me exclusively with very little dancing around other major issues, voting Mage being chief among them.

Oh, this one's just plain funny. I dug up my post history just to check actually. I don't even mention you until my 5th post where I give you that pressurevote for lurking. After that, I make a quick reminder on the bottom of each of my posts that yes, I'm still waiting for you to post more. Until you do. Logical, would you not agree? Also here's more scumtalk in unnecessary pluralization - other major issues?

Really. Besides the case of Mage, I would love to see anyone in this game to point me a Major Issue that was discussed during day one. Because there weren't any! You'll need to tell me what on earth was major before I'm able to dance around it, I'm afraid.

So Tonfa, why DID you vote Mage? Cause I'm not seeing much explanation yesterday, even post-vote.

Not that you seem to have read my posts since you seem to be thinking I centered on you exclusively, but alright. There was no post-vote explanation because it was the hammer. How about pre-vote?

Are you seriously saying anyone who suspects you is scummy? 'cause that's what I'm getting from that post.

Also I like your extremely vague "throwing up false leads/clues" about Laggy without quantifying in ANY way what they are.

Newbie defense shield is off. Keeping my vote on Soppy but Mage jumped into the top of my scumlist right there.

The vote on you being a pressurevote to post more, remember.

Then Laggy comes in, throws a few other points against Mage, and Alex basically goes "what they said". Nothing Mage said made him look any better, and I announce my intent to hammer after his claim unless it's something particularly earthshattering. There are no other MAJOR ISSUES to discuss at that point. And thus, I do. Simple.

My mind works weirdly in mafia. I notice odd things and I call people out on them. Sometimes they seem inconsequential and they can be, but it does work. But other than that, basically you're saying I'm scummy because I... saw things odd about people and went after them for it? Better that than someone who waved off responsibility of catching scum because I wasn't around.

I like the completely non-factual shot in the last sentence again. Anyway, any point you latched onto was minor and the way you just subtly drop arguments makes me feel you are just scum looking for the right buttons to push to stir up a nice lynchtrain.

Apologies for bordering on megapost. Well, nothing more to do now but to wait for people to awaken to the presence of day 2 here.

[Ranmilia]

Yoshi - the question about you being a new player?  If so, it's just... your general playstyle.  Your cases have stuck to very obvious cues and you're not really considering how manipulative people in this game can be.  (As scum OR town!)  You took my comment about Soppy "maybe knowing something extra" seriously, and didn't seem to get that it was a "maybe you're scum!" joke.  (Well, half joke.  More on that in a moment.  But the half that was a joke flew right over your head.)  You say things like "If Tonfa makes another post like that, I'll vote for him!" - which is not very useful because Tonfa now knows he shouldn't make a post like that!  You don't know about Delta.  And so forth.  This isn't meant negatively, you're just obviously new to the game and haven't learned some of the ins and outs that veterans take for granted yet.

But now we got day 2. 

RAINBOW OF DECREASING TOWNIENESS
Sir "Shuckle" Alex, infallible town hypercharger
The Honorable Richard "Tonfa" Hawk, who has been posting consistently good stuff, I don't see myself voting him today.
gap
Thoughtbrother Laggy, whom I am slightly suspicious of due to the obvious, but can't really find a case on him also due to the obvious.
gap
Yoshiken, who as previously mentioned has sat and played the newbie card.  Could be scum with any partner.  No real read.
gap
Bardiche, who has extremely aggressively pushed Soppy both days and... not said too much about anyone else.  I feel like a Bard/Soppy scumteam is definitely possible here.  Also of note is that both Bard and Yoshi are saying that town should try not to get lynched
Soppy, whose case I have previously brought up, under discussion, etc.  He is the obvious choice for today. 

SOMEWHERE OFF IN OUTER SPACE
Delta.  Honestly, asking Delta his thoughts on things never helps, I can't read him.  Instead I'd like to see everyone else say what they think about Delta.  For my part to start off, I think he's been a little more lucid this game, but also more in the background than I would expect for two people voting him immediately, even as jokes.  I could definitely see him as scum being told to sit quietly. 

At this point I think the scum are most likely two of Yoshi/Bard/Soppy/Delta, and Bard and Soppy are my top two right now.

Soppy... aaaaugh.  On the one hand there's all the scummy feeling from the beginning, and the move to Mage.  On the other hand...
"Yeah, switching from Alex to Mage was suspicious. So what? I'm trying to find scum here, and there are good reasons to go with Mage for Day 1. Better reasons than I have for Alex at the moment. Convenient? Maybe. But I'm not gonna be afraid of how it looks if I think the person I'm switching to is more likely to be scum."
Bard quotes this post as an attack on him.  I find it a good defense that gives me my first whiff of townie from Soppy this game.  Soppy's entirely right, town SHOULDN'T worry about preserving their own lives at the cost of making cases and lynching scum, and I vastly disagree with what Bard and Yoshi said on the matter.  +Soppy, -Bard/Yoshi.  And yet... these are basic playstyle arguments that anyone could make regardless of alignment.  Mrf.

Then Soppy starts going after Tonfa.  I find Tonfa very townie, even on a reread, and don't agree with Soppy's statements about his posts.  And yet this is exactly the sort of thing I can see a flustered townie who's been off their game go for.  And yet... not, as it could and did draw Tonfa into a slapfight. 

I'm torn between voting Soppy or Bard right now.  I'd especially like some people to weigh in on Bard. 

##Vote: Bard because I don't want to put Soppy at -1 with Delta at large.

[Laggy]

Chiming in on the Soppy case... in Day 1 he jokevotes for Alex, which stays on for a minor point, and never switches off that vote until the train on Mage is already well on its way. I said I'd give him credit for doing that during Day 1 for the sake of being productive; and frankly, his Alex case wasn't particularly convincing (he admits now it was more instinct than reason).

Admittedly part of the reason I didn't kneejerk Soppy looking scummy was because his play isn't really deviating all that much from how he normally does (yay metagaming). Tonfa's got valid points about his attacks pretty much whiffing though. He's yet to build a convincing case on anyone to me and his Day 1 record is sparse. Realizing how few his Day 1 posts were and now looking at his vote switch... he basically says he has mostly a null read on Mage, but his concern on Alex has dropped so he's going to switch.

But now you're defending that as a vote to the person you find scummier, while simultaneously saying Alex still bothers you. I dunno. It's technically not conflicting (Mage did flip town) but it feels off. He's got enough votes on him now that I will withhold on that though.

Yoshi is the other person that I'm kind of looking hard at. Escaped detection completely Day 1, and just like Soppy, he pressed on Alex for seemingly weird stuff (for his response in the Soppy/Alex slapfight even) and... didn't vote at all past that. Several of his posts read like lists, which bother me (yes, I'm aware I'm the one who called him to say stuff, but just like with Mage, calling for someone to post does not mean that you'll like the response and will take it as pro-town). He posts content, but never pushes it hard with votes. If you are really that up and bothered about Alex not responding about the newbie card bit, vote him. Lacking that commitment makes it look like you don't want to get incriminated for things and looks scummy.

Taking my own advice, ##Vote: Yoshiken

Delta still hasn't posted.

ARGH NINJA'D BY ALEX

[Laggy]

(Seriously, 32 seconds past the minute to 12? Screw you man.)

[Yoshiken]

Alex still isn't my main suspect. I'm looking primarily at Sopko, with Alex as a distant 2nd. However, as Alex has said, putting him at L-1 so soon is kinda... yeah, not gonna happen. So yeah. No vote yet.

Alex: Your "half-joke" came at the end of an otherwise serious post. Were you honestly expecting -everyone- would just casually ignore it? And I've been in a couple of games with Delta before. You said yourself there, -you- can't read him. I've personally found that he really stands out when playing Mafia, and is otherwise a pretty helpful town player.

Laggy: In all honesty, I'm as surprised as you that I completely avoided detection. I said at the time, when I was talking about Alex, that it was mostly personal opinion and I'd look at better alternatives as the day continued. Then, Mage became the prime suspect and... very quickly went to L-1. Yeah, I wasn't exactly gonna change my vote at -that- stage, was I?
As for pushing things with votes, I'm fairly sure that's just a different playstyle. I'm active enough to vote for people if they give a bad or no response, so I'd rather see what people actually have to say before voting them. As long as the decision's made at the end of the day, does it really matter? Suspicion draws out lurkers just as well as votes, from what I've seen.

And, with that, I'm going to wait to see what Delta has to say, at least, before I make a further decision. Ho-hum.




ALEX SPEAKING HERE:  OH GOD WHY AM I A MOD IN THIS FORUM I CANNOT EVEN PERFORM SIMPLE TASKS.  I hit "modify" on this post when I meant to hit "quote" and wound up replacing it with my own post (which you will see further down momentarily.  I sincerely apologize about this and have restored Yoshi's original post.

[Laggy]

It may be a different playstyle but it's one I'm going to continuing making a contention about.

By voting, you are exercising the primary power town has available to defeat scum - lynching them. All sorts of interesting things happen when people get put -2 or -1 to hammer and it curries discussion. It solidifies that you are serious about your argument and not getting away with blanket "I have my eye on you!"; scum can easily coast on such sentiments by claiming they are active without any actual commitment. Remember, scum know that everyone else is town, and have to lie through their teeth when pursuing cases. Parroting other people and never taking decisive stances via voting is just too easy an option for them to take, and I will continue to see people reluctant to vote as acting in a negative way for town.

And at its own basic principle the game isn't going to get anywhere without voting. Letting things drag to deadline and not starting trains and cases on people stagnates the game, allows for less productive discussion, and lets scum sit there laughing as town sits around on its thumbs. I'm not saying to jump around voting everyone and everything you see (that would look just as bad), but you SHOULD be pursuing cases, and you SHOULD be doing so with votes.

[Ranmilia]

Alex: Your "half-joke" came at the end of an otherwise serious post. Were you honestly expecting -everyone- would just casually ignore it?

Yes.  Unless they had something to say about the non-joke half, which was an obvious jab at Soppy that... well what else is there to say about it.

And I've been in a couple of games with Delta before. You said yourself there, -you- can't read him. I've personally found that he really stands out when playing Mafia, and is otherwise a pretty helpful town player.

Your stance on Delta is duly noted I guess.

BUT

I thought some more and figured out what was bothering me.

Bard has this tendency to go heavy reporter style, especially when scum.  I've called him on it and flipped him scum in at least two games.  This game... he ISN'T doing that.
Soppy on the other hand... the bad vibe I got from his very first serious post was because it was made in Super Bardscum Style.  Attacking Super Bardscum Style has not often led me wrong.

hissss
##Unvote: Bard
Not Quite Official Vote: Soppy.  (I would be willing to put it officially on him now but I still don't want ninjadeltahammer.)

THIS TIME WITH LESS FAILURE IN POSTING

[Yoshiken]

I'm still not placing a vote yet until Delta's posted. I am NOT putting someone at L-1 without hearing from everyone first. I can safely say I will vote when the time comes for it, but that time just isn't yet.

Re-reading now, I'm still somewhat confused by this idea. Why is it that people seem to insist that it's perfectly fine for Town to look suspicious? Sopko starts by saying that he'd happily look suspicious on the grounds of -trying- to find scum (fine on its own, but not looking suspicious while finding scum is certainly better), and then Alex says both me & Bard look suspicious, and says:

Also of note is that both Bard and Yoshi are saying that town should try not to get lynched.

Well, uhh, no shit? If Town get lynched, Town lose. Surely Mage Day1 shows exactly -why- Town shouldn't look suspicious.

Alex!Ninja: Tch. The metagaming bothers me as the basis for voting, but it has worked before, so... Hmm. No further read on that post, still slightly suspicious, still far behind Sopko on suspicion.

[Bardiche]

What? So uh, I need to look at people other than Sopko?

Making a list is worthless, but alright, let's see what I think of others.

I'm slightly wary of Laggy/Alex. Not because of their content, because I find their participation to be solid and benevolent. But the fact they keep hiveminding/ninjaposting eachother? >_> It's just too coincidental and things that are coincidental deserve scrutiny. Otherwise neither strike me particularly as people I want to pursue as possible scum.

Delta is like he always is. Nothing he says is new to me, and overall while he's trying to be of use he doesn't bring anything new to the table. This is nothing different from his usual conduit. I get why people want to lynch him, but I have never-ending faith in people not screwing up constantly.

Actually, the only other person I'm specifically wary of other than Sopko is Tonfa. I'm afraid I can't really explain my suspicions for Tonfa rationally, but he rubs me the wrong way in that it seems he's... not really presenting new cases? He jumps on Sopko when I did, and jumped on Magetastic when everyone else did. His only other vote was a prod vote on Sopko Day 1, then an ultimate switch for hammer on Mage?

I'm also a bit confused about him sticking his vote on me for not defending against jokevotes. Of course, it's a WIFOM web there, so.

Comfortable with my present vote.

[Laggy]

Yoshi: I am not exonerating you for not placing a vote on Soppy right now (I agree that putting him at -1 to hammer with an unknown Delta stance is a bad idea). Just that I disagree entirely with your views about not voting in general as a good playstyle (and only voicing suspicions) and find that it gives bad-townie vibes.

(People who keep bringing up LagAlex hivemind... man, what do you want me to tell you >_>)

[Laggy]

AM exonerating you. Christ. I know my vocabulary.

[Ranmilia]

Not metagaming, post style voting.  Reporter style is (I will argue) inherently scummy, and how I caught Bard out as scum those times.

Re Yoshi's debate:
Town's goal is to lynch scum.
Scum's goal is to not get lynched.
Town therefore finds scum by detecting the players who are not trying to lynch scum, and are trying hard not to get lynched.
If townies are trying hard not to get lynched, this gets thrown for a loop and everyone's scumhunting is impaired.  Obviously don't do stupid stuff, but your #1 concern as a townie should always, always be lynching scum, not protecting yourself.

NINJA'D BY LAGGY AGAIN wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Laggy you aren't being my thoughtbuddy anymore
In fact you're kind of coasting and still going on with the not voting thing which is kind of minor at this stage of the game and already covered with Mage.  Whatchu got here?  You really think Yoshi's the best lynch right now?

NINJA'D BY LAGGY TWICE wheeeeee

[Laggy]

Nah, not necessarily.

But Soppy's case has been thoroughly covered by like... everyone else earlier in this day and I've already thrown in how I feel about it. It has also been said several times why people aren't piling on the extra vote on him, so I'm not sure why you're accusing me of this when you yourself aren't doing so.

I am, however, quite wary of everyone ELSE avoiding attention due to the Soppy gangbang, and Yoshi was the first person that caught my eye. I am still really waiting on Delta to post, feel that Tonfa's playing as solid as can be, and Bard has been pretty productive and concise about his posts (more so than I expected). And you are playing as you normally do, which as we've seen several times I largely agree with. So yes, Yoshi looks the most suspicious to me for reasons already stated, ignoring the obvious Soppy case.