[Game Over] Worms Armageddon Mafia

[Carthrat]

Kiro: see My-Hime mafia!

Why are we talking about lurkers at all so early? You can't preemptively catch them or really force people to declare tight schedules to keep to in advance. Kudos for talking about something, but I hardly think this is a worthy topic. Let's talk about lynching filthy Nao-killing fiends instead, like Kiro and Shizuru. Since only Kiro is in the game..

Ok seriously he's just voting for the first person to open his mouth about something vaguely game-related, pushing a train to three. Clear this is typical predatory scum trying to hit the first nail that sticks up, he deserves votes for this.

[Hunter Sopko]

The only lurkers you look at this early are usually people who haven't posted yet. The only one I haven't seen post yet is Tom.

I don't get the case on Yoshi, while Kiro seems to really be trying to imply there's something sinister in his behavior with:

Meh, can't tell if Yoshi is serious or not about the hidden status concern. Mainly cuz that was his first vote and the Dutch comment below it. Despite Excal being the first one to mention the word "stereotypes," Yoshi went along with it and that's just begging to open a can of worms (pun intended) that's not needed. So I'm just gonna vote you.

So my vote on Kiro turns from joke to serious.

[Excal]

Boo on you, Rat!  I call you for preemptive lurking!  But seriously, yeah.  You're probably right.  Even with the best of intentions, talking game theory has never led to good lynches on day one.  (Might have lead to better play on later days, but I don't think we're that knee deep in bad play these days)

So, let's take a look at serious Mafia since that's finally starting up.  Aaaand, it's Kiro vs. Soppy.  Which looks to be sitting at Kiro looking really hard at Yoshi, and Soppy getting on Kiro's case for trying to see something.  So...  yeah.  The really big thing here, is that Kiro seems to have a serious vote on Yoshi, which brings us to a three man train.  Perfect for starting the day.

Normally at this point, I'd want to help jump in on the pileup, cause hey, vote = pressure = discussion.  But a) I've already got my vote on Yoshi, b) I hate putting a vote on the guy sparking the discussion within hours of his doing it (if you look legitimately bad later in the day, this protection shall fail), and c) Soppy, the other participant in this madness just had his lone vote disappear, so voting him would not only undercut the Yoshi train, but accomplish nothing at the same time.  Not to mention, unlike most people jumping on the guy starting the discussion, Soppy's case holds up remarkably well.  So, I can't even jump on him for that.

So...  guess it's just uh...  analyzing nothing and procrastinating for me.  Dangit people, post more!

[Magetastic]

##Unvote Excal

##Vote Tom

My joke vote on Excal is doing nothing, and we need to bring Tom out of his cave.

[Laggy]

Votecount

Rat (1): Tonfa
Glen (1): Bard
Bard (2): Glen, Yoshi
Alex (1): Delta
Tonfa (0):
Excal (0): Mage
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (1): Mage
Mage (0):
Delta (0):
Yoshi (3): Xanth, Excal, Kiro
Xanth (0):
Alice (2): Smodge, Alex
Kiro (2): Soppy, Rat

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in 38 hours.

[Glen Veil]

##Unvote: Bardiche
##Vote: Excal

Excal's most recent post has basically just attempted to direct even more attention to what right now are the most obvious tensions of Kiro, Soppy, and Yoshi.  This to me seems rather scummy, in that there's a good chance of getting people to be distracted by the things he pointed out.  To compound this Excal is also one of the first to get on a vote train at someone.

I may be new to mafia, but Excal just shot through the roof on my scum radar.

[Magetastic]

##Unvote Tom

On second thought, discussion is more important than the 'I'm alive!' post.

##Vote Kiro

I'm interested in more discussion. Convince me to take my vote off.

[Excal]

Eh, honestly, I wanted to try and highlight the conversation, but more because it's stuff happening, and attaching more stuff to it just means that hopefully there will be spin offs from it that will still have that same seriousness.  Case in point, there's your case on me, which I'm pretty happy about.  However, if you think I'm trying to distract town from something else, then by all means, let's take a look at it and see if there's something missing.  So far, all I'm seeing is a bunch of joke votes that if there's any meaning in them, it's currently hiding behind a big ol' veil of insufficient input.

As for being one of the first to be on a scum train, I could dispute your claim by pointing out that when I voted for Yoshi, it wasn't really a train, but I made my comment afterwards that if I wasn't already on a train, I'd either be hopping on this one, or starting a new one.  So, I'll give you a bit more game theory.  Namely, Day 1 trains are a good thing.  The first ones will be random, but look at the reactions they draw.  That's your best bet for finding scum day 1.

So, start a train hard and fast, and be ready to move that vote as soon as a hard case comes in, and then push for that new lynch as hard as possible.

Edit: Mage, who are you asking to convince you?  Kiro?  How is he going to do that, given you aren't voting him for any merit than because you think that vote will encourage discussion?

[Magetastic]

Yes, Kiro. And my vote actually turned it into another train, as now both Yoshi and Kiro have an equal amount of votes on them. I could have voted for Alice to try and bring up discussion, but, honestly, I rather like where this Kiro discussion is going. Just... a good feeling. And if I've learned anything, it's to follow my instincts.

[EvilTom]

Oh, what? I missed the jokevote phase
I guess I'll have to put my serious hat on.

##Vote Mage;
- Vote then unvote within 20 minutes, then pushing Kiro into contention with Yoshi for Train mode. I don't expect brilliant arguments on day 1, but.. I'm always wary of the voter telling the votee to "defend thyself" - I've had scum mislynch me way too many times under that pretense. The votee has to flail around to put up a defense against a non-argument, and then gets accused of being "too defensive" etc.

Ninja: What Excal said.
Ninja: Kiro - you'll understand if we don't "trust your feelings". I doubt you're Luke Skywalker since this is Worms, and "gut feelings" etc will not help town figure out scum motives later on. This is day 1, but it's one thing to start trains, and another to say it's to promote "discussion". Again, it's a case of pointing your vote at someone and saying "discuss or else I'll lynch you".

[Glen Veil]

So far, all I'm seeing is a bunch of joke votes that if there's any meaning in them, it's currently hiding behind a big ol' veil of insufficient input.

I see what you did there!  But in all seriousness, while they may be joke votes, accentuating the current tensions does nothing to bring up discussion outside said tensions to me.  People will still be more inclined to talk about what is accentuated then what is not.  Also, forcing discussion in one area makes it relatively easier for scum to get on the train without having to potentially come up with a bull excuse to train someone.

While I am glad you're happy about my spin off from what you said, I feel like you have to play being happy even if you aren't, since if you weren't happy about my assessment, it would almost be a sure giveaway of scumminess.  Since one has no choice but to express joy at my accusation of them being scum in this situation, the fact that you brought it up is moot in my eyes since you lack the choice to express a different opinion safely.

I'll stick with my current vote for now.

[Magetastic]

Tom, I see nothing wrong with promoting discussion. And with so little to keep it alive at the moment, pressure is a good thing. In fact, the scummiest thing to do at the moment would be to keep discussion from happening, leading to a sudden death, or auto-lynch. And then we've got nothing to go on, Day 2.

In short: #1 step to killing scum is to promote discussion Day 1, as that provides a basis for all further days.

[Excal]

Unlike Tom, I like having two trains competing.  It at least helps force arguments and divisions to come into play.  I even like the idea of starting an early lynch train just for discussion.  Hell, I even don't mind so much when someone flips their vote rapidly if they just thought of something.  After all, moments of inspiration help town, and being against one by rote just because it comes at an awkward time is bad policy.

But you declaring that Kiro should defend himself against your vote that, once again, was levelled at him, by your own admission, NOT because you felt he was scummy, but because you wanted to promote discussion.  A discussion I might add that you are contributing nothing to, and when you discussed your alternatives, you mention someone that not only has no real traction to speak of (a vote for Alice is a non-vote right now if you don't have real reasons for it) but also you don't discuss what your good feeling is.  Do you think we will get good discussion, or do you have some feeling that Kiro is scum?  While I can appreciate working off of gut, if it isn't backup by an ability to explain yourself to others, or an ability to use that gut instinct to find acceptable reasons for us to listen to you, then all you're giving us is dead air, and a perfect example of what the dangerous kind of lurking looks like.

As such, let's follow this up with

##Unvote: Yoshi, ##Vote: Mage

Edit: Glen.  I think you're over-estimating just how likely we are to focus solely on one topic, or of the scums ability to focus everyone on just what they want on Day 1.  There's too many independent thinkers on this day for town to be railroaded like that in this game.  Later days might have that issue, but not today.  Moreover, it's impossible to force conversation.  You can only try and lead, and hope others will follow.

Edit: Mage.  The problem isn't so much that you're trying to promote conversation so much as the manner in which you're doing it looks to be trying to promote conversation while also giving yourself a convenient excuse for avoiding conversing yourself.  And that is a very scummy move.

[Magetastic]

Fair enough.

My gut instinct isn't so much that Kiro is scummy, necessarily, but moreso that if we continue to discuss Kiro and Kiro-related things, that the scum will reveal themselves. Again: No evidence, just gut instinct.

As for the Kiro discussion, in his sign-up post, he made it pretty clear he's no newbie to mafia, (clear to me, anyways.) and yet he sems to be playing the newbie card here with his talk of the jokevote phase and being unable to tell that Yoshi was joking around about Bard. The contradiction seems scummy to me, though I admit it may be over-assuming on my part.
Still. Scumdar alarm: on.

[Smodge13]

##Unvote: Alice Still not even 12 hour mark so not going to accuse of lurking yet

Ok there are a pair of trains running that is resulting in some discussion, this is good, the Yoshi train seems to me to be because of the discussion of when people are available, this to me does raise a slight amount of suspicion but just seems like the usual groping for arguments of day 1

Mage train  i dislike the quick vote-switch i myself have done this a both town and scum so it could go either way, i also dislike the lack of content however it is early days.

Hate to distract from the good trains that are forming but this really sticks out at me.

Kiro: see My-Hime mafia!

Why are we talking about lurkers at all so early? You can't preemptively catch them or really force people to declare tight schedules to keep to in advance. Kudos for talking about something, but I hardly think this is a worthy topic. Let's talk about lynching filthy Nao-killing fiends instead, like Kiro and Shizuru. Since only Kiro is in the game..

Ok seriously he's just voting for the first person to open his mouth about something vaguely game-related, pushing a train to three. Clear this is typical predatory scum trying to hit the first nail that sticks up, he deserves votes for this.

What rat does here is a blatant attempt at killing conversation, he begins by joking about his vote when its obvious this game is being kicked into serious mode already, he then accuses Kiro of voting for the first person to do even slightest thing wrong (yet completely ignores that Excal not only was the one to call it out but to place the vote and also there was a reasonable amount of suspicion for day 1 to go placing a vote)

Rats entire post is fairly light hearted while in serious mode, and yet offers little to no evidence about why a train should begin to form on Kiro but indicates suspicion against him.
Reading over Kiro's posts the only thing i can see even vaguely suspicious is Me-to-ism but in early days someones bound to double up regardless.

As such
##Vote: Rat

Your call of "look at and vote for kiro" without decent reason seems to be an attempt to stop discussion on the 2 trains and to look elsewhere, discussion on day 1 is vital and this seems to be making me very suspicious

[Kiro]

Ok seriously he's just voting for the first person to open his mouth about something vaguely game-related, pushing a train to three.

Truth. But "typical predatory scum" is quite a bit of a reach. Getting to 3 when 8 is required is a null worry for the so called first serious bandwagon of the game.

What I was getting from Yoshi is why does he want to talk about stereotypes? Is there going to be a discussion on how people who hide their online status are likely lurking scum? I just wanted to avoid that kind of a thing and just voted Yoshi on it. Since Yoshi has since said the hidden status thing or the stereotype wasn't serious, I can't hold him on that unless he decides to bring it up later. And I also am not considering Bardiche's hiding of his online status as anything of significance. That's how some people are and I'll judge him based on his future content.

##Unvote Yoshi

No opinion on Mage's vote from Excal to Tom to me. It was going to be useless to leave it sitting on a person who hasn't posted yet in Day 1 imo. But then you switched it to me so it was back to neutral on the scumdar. And if this post doesn't convince you to take your vote off me, then state your case on me.

Tom: Was your second ninja directed at Mage or me? The paragraph looks like it's talking about Mage's #33 rather than anything I said earlier.

Also, forcing discussion in one area makes it relatively easier for scum to get on the train without having to potentially come up with a bull excuse to train someone.

That is false. Everyone needs a decent reason at least on the face to vote for someone. And I disagree with your point about Excal must saying he's happy you voted him or it looks scummy. There's not enough in the case one way or another to be able to properly judge that kind of a reaction. Your staying on him is an original viewpoint though and I can't really fault it at the moment because you can validly feel that kind of a suspicion as a Townie with little playing experience.

I'd be tempted to vote Mage, but since I feel he's waiting for my response, I'll decide after I see his reply. No vote at the moment, I still have no read on half of the players at the moment.

Cut by Mage: Not being able to tell whether a vote is joke or serious is not an indication of... anything imo. Sometimes tone is hard to tell with just mere words and little idea of how most of you guys like to play. That's why I brought it up in my vote on Yoshi. He has since clarified it.

Man, this game moves at a nice speed. Let me get this out first before thinking about Smodge's post.

[Carthrat]

Er Glen? You can't go 'Excal is DISTRACTING US FROM THINGS' without being specific about what he's distracting us from (i.e. nothing that I can possibly see). I mean, acknowledging people are likely to be distracted by what he says is another way of saying "what he's saying is credible and believable and worth paying attention to". I'm not happy about your assessment and do find it a bit strange that Excal is taking it relatively meekly, especially in the light of 'if you acted differently THAT WOULD BE SCUMMY so of course you will act sensibly.' Augh that's dumb in so many ways, people have no obligation to be HAPPY about you voting for them. This is such backwards logic that it's worth a vote. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Glen Veil

Heck, it's tantamount to you going "What you're talking about SUCKS. Think of something better NOW or DIE." That ain't gonna fly. It is you who must provide the new material!

Mage is being pretty awful too. 'defend thyself' is an impossible request, Kaguya would be proud.

Ninja: Smodge: I refuse to not be lighthearted! Your fun-hating ways cannot stop my good cheer. Yoshi wasn't being particularly scummy by talking about things, that was worth no train. Voting Kiro for piling on the end of such a train is as good a reason as any at that point due to suspicion of opportunism (and how the heck do you even try to kill discussion in a game of mafia like this that's not even possible, what are you talking about)

Kiro: It's strong language, nothing more. When the game reaches the point of talking about important things, all votes are treated seriously by me.

[Magetastic]

I believe Toms second ninja was directed at me. He must've gotten names switched in his mind. Nothing to worry about there.

While you do make a good point, Kiro, it's not quite enough to dispell my current suspicion, bit I will ##Unvote and FoS Kiro instead. But before I continue, I'd like to hear Delta's thoughts.

[Carthrat]

Are you quite sure you need to hear them to continue, or do you just not have anything to say yet?

[Magetastic]

I am most positive. Delta's thoughts are #1 on my list of things I need.

[Excal]

Erm, yeah.  Gotta admit I'm with Rat here.

Heck, here's my main concern.  Why did you initially vote for Kiro?  You said it was to promote discussion.  That's a fine reason to vote for someone.  However, you also, at that same time, said you'd remove that vote when he convinced you otherwise when there was no argument for him to refute.  When pressured on that, you didn't hang on to the promoting discussion line, you tried to find reasons.  And once you did, you flailed, showing you clearly had none.

So now, now that you've been called on this, you're dropping a FoS which is not only bloody useless on day 1, but denotes that you have a real case despite the fact that each time you've tried to make one, you've just thrashed around like a fish out of water.  As well, you remove the third pressure vote that gave you any semblance of adding to discussion.

And to top it all off, you stall anything resembling content to your next post by saying you need to wait for a post by someone who has had nothing to do with the conversation and who may not even be online right now, let alone imminently posting.

I'll admit that a lot of this could just be really, really, bad play.  But the waiting on Delta thing is the one that really gets my hackles raised here, since I can think of no reason whatsoever for you to want to wait for him, and you've given us none.

Edit: I will repeat.  WHY do you need them, what benefit are you expecting from them?

[Magetastic]

Agh, I wish I could stay and continue all of this right now, but my internet's about to cut out. Hopefully Delta will reply and then I'll give a full report on my thoughts.

[Hunter Sopko]

While you do make a good point, Kiro, it's not quite enough to dispell my current suspicion, bit I will ##Unvote and FoS Kiro instead. But before I continue, I'd like to hear Delta's thoughts.

To me, this sounds a lot like "Hey, Delta will probably say something incriminating if I call him out, lets pick him out randomly"

So I'll echo Excal, why Delta and not, heck, one of the many people who haven't posted in a while?

NINJA: Cutting and running only seems more suspicious.

[Glen Veil]

Cart, while there was nothing at the time besides the trains that Excal was talking about, it was my belief that accentuating those would do everything but promote discussion in other areas.  As for everything else, I'm  thinking it's more due us having different thought processes.

Also if it helps for clarification on what I was saying about Excal and it making it easier for scum to train, I meant to add an "else" at the end of this sentence:

 

Also, forcing discussion in one area makes it relatively easier for scum to get on the train without having to potentially come up with a bull excuse to train someone.

Overall I feel the sentence could have been better worded.

That said, Carth, I failed to notice you making a post in a very similar vein as Excal with "less drop this subject and focus on Kiro's case," which was brought up by Smodge.  I'm also very suspicious of your heavy defence of Excal, this particularly strike me as something a townie would do.  Also by attacking my case so Harshly you are further trying to subdue certain discussion while only promoting things you yourself find relevant, which again strikes me as scummy in nature.  While I'm fine with people disagreeing with my assessment, saying that my assessment is void so bluntly is just way to untownlike to ignore.

Carth has managed to become more suspicious then Excal to me for the time being, so I'll buy into Smodge's current case and:

##Unvote: Excal
##Vote: Carthrat

[Laggy]

Votecount

Rat (3): Tonfa, Smodge, Glen
Glen (2): Bard, Rat
Bard (1): Glen, Yoshi
Alex (1): Delta
Tonfa (0):
Excal (0): Mage, Glen
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (0): Mage
Mage (2): Tom, Excal
Delta (0):
Yoshi (1): Xanth, Excal, Kiro
Xanth (0):
Alice (1): Smodge, Alex
Kiro (1): Soppy, Rat, Mage

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in 35 hours.