[Game Over] Worms Armageddon Mafia

[Tonfa]

Okay, let's

##Unvote

take the jokevote off for starters.

Not jumping on any conclusion about Mage until he returns. After all, he managed to be the scummiest looking player in the game and lynched D1 as town in the last game...though there is little to go on during day 1 other than lynching the scummiest playing player.

Glen makes no sense to me. Focusing onto certain topics PROMOTES discussion. If you want to bring up something else, bring up a new topic instead of trying to hush current discussion because...it's too narrow-minded, you say? At some point or other, there needs to be a narrow focus for a lynch to take place at all. If some option seems neglected, it can then be brought up by anyone who feels like they have a decent case. It appears you're the one who only wants to promote the discussion you seem fit, as you consider Rat making a case on you (rather civilly compared to some of the more heated mafia cases along the way, despite what you say...) to be halting discussion for some reason.

##Vote: Glen Veil Scummiest player at the moment.

[Glen Veil]

I feel as if you're trying to put words into my mouth.  In no way have I ever discouraged what Excal was discussing, I simply expressed that I found they way he presented his view on it to be scummish in that particular case.

I am simply presenting cases I see and believe to be true in my eyes, and in my current case of voting for Carthrat, it is actually Smodges case originally!  Also, you say I'm the one who is halting discussion, and yet Carth posted this little tidbit:

Heck, it's tantamount to you going "What you're talking about SUCKS. Think of something better NOW or DIE." That ain't gonna fly. It is you who must provide the new material!

In his very first sentence he claims that I am threatening Excal to come up with better material, and then in the very next sentence he blatantly does to me what he claims I did to Excal.

I had actually planned to switch to Carth before he posted after reading Smodge's case anyways, but some of the things he has said has simply reaffirmed Smodge's beliefs in my eyes.  That he voted against me means very little against my intention to vote against him.

[Excal]

Glen, hate to break it to you, but Smodge misread Rat's post.  In fact, he made some really questionable slips of logic at the end.

Hate to distract from the good trains that are forming but this really sticks out at me.

Kiro: see My-Hime mafia!

Why are we talking about lurkers at all so early? You can't preemptively catch them or really force people to declare tight schedules to keep to in advance. Kudos for talking about something, but I hardly think this is a worthy topic. Let's talk about lynching filthy Nao-killing fiends instead, like Kiro and Shizuru. Since only Kiro is in the game..

Ok seriously he's just voting for the first person to open his mouth about something vaguely game-related, pushing a train to three. Clear this is typical predatory scum trying to hit the first nail that sticks up, he deserves votes for this.

What rat does here is a blatant attempt at killing conversation, he begins by joking about his vote when its obvious this game is being kicked into serious mode already, he then accuses Kiro of voting for the first person to do even slightest thing wrong (yet completely ignores that Excal not only was the one to call it out but to place the vote and also there was a reasonable amount of suspicion for day 1 to go placing a vote)

Rats entire post is fairly light hearted while in serious mode, and yet offers little to no evidence about why a train should begin to form on Kiro but indicates suspicion against him.
Reading over Kiro's posts the only thing i can see even vaguely suspicious is Me-to-ism but in early days someones bound to double up regardless.

As such
##Vote: Rat

Your call of "look at and vote for kiro" without decent reason seems to be an attempt to stop discussion on the 2 trains and to look elsewhere, discussion on day 1 is vital and this seems to be making me very suspicious

So, let's deconstruct this, shall we?

There's three major things that Smodge got wrong.

1) Rat isn't being serious.  Now, while I will admit that his choice of posting style is highly questionable since it's apt to mislead, the meat of Rat's post is serious stuff.  Whether it's the "this metagame discussion is pretty useless at finding scum, guys" or the "here's my reasons for going for Kiro".  It's all solid, even if it's surrounded by fluff regarding Mai-Hime Mafia.

2) He believes that Kiro and I did the same thing.  We didn't.  Kiro launched a serious vote, regardless of whether he meant to start a train or not, he did send that vote with lynching intent.  Whereas mine was a joke vote with a conversational tie in hoping to tease something out.

and 3) He accuses Rat of distracting us from 'the two trains'.  Which two trains?  Why Yoshi and Kiro of course.  And Rat's method of distracting us from them?  By talking about Kiro.  Think that through for a second.

So, Smodge's case isn't terribly good.  However, I'm sure that's not what you're thinking about.  I'm sure you're thinking something more along the lines of "Egads!  Rat defended Excal, and now Excal's defending Rat!  Obviously they are Scum Chums Forever!"  The flaw in that logic, though, is that there's a pretty good reason for shooting down bad logic as town.  Namely, if you want to hunt down scum, the more bad arguments you let float without shooting it down, then the more muddled the topic, the more you need to sort through, and the more chaff you need to sort out in order to figure out the truth.  So, yeah.  So far as I'm concerned, a good townie will challenge any arguement based off of bad logic.  I mean, even if they're proved wrong, then hopefully something got advanced as both sides defend their position.

So, moving on to the real thing I find interesting, it's you, and your arguments against Rat, and against myself.

I'll start with this.  You still seem to hold that my post at the time was a bad move.  Do you in fact still hold this position in spite of the evidence that it seems to have worked?  (For myself, it's a tactic I've developed over several games based on the fact that it tends to work if I'm feeling scrappy)  You obviously still seem to hold it in regards to Rat, and his similar post which Smodge opened debate on earlier.  Although, your typo (given how odd it looks in context) stating Rat's defense of me is something a Townie would do also strikes me as odd.

As for him doing to you what you did to me, he's actually right.  You basically accused me of trying to stifle conversation by talking about something else.  The challenge was, if I'm stifling conversation, then show what I'm stifling and bring it to our attention.  Or show what you think Rat's stifling and bring that to our attention (you have, but this one is more for pattern repetition for rhetorical purpose), but don't just claim that we're stifling conversation on theoretical grounds if you can't back it up with some evidence that there's a conversation being stifled.

In slightly baser terms, put up or shut up.

You did neither.

[Carthrat]

Those situations they are not the same! You were calling out Excal for distracting people to the present issues, which is basically nonsensical unless you have something better to talk about. Voting Excal for that doesn't seem to be terribly fair; If not the issues at hand, what is he meant to talk about? You certainly didn't provide any alternatives, so.. what's so bad about what he did?

The hypocrisy there is why I voted you, but going on about meaningless things like 'you have to respond happily because to do otherwise is scummy' or 'you're being blunt and forceful, that's scummy', these aren't doing you any favours either. Bluntness is a sign of manliness!

Me pointing your own hypocrisy out? It ain't the same thing at all.

Seconding Soppy/Tonfa on Mage there. Definate lynch possibility there as well.

[EvilTom]

@Mage/Kiro

I believe Toms second ninja was directed at me. He must've gotten names switched in his mind. Nothing to worry about there.

Yep sorry, that's what happened. Must have been reading Kiro's name while I was trying to type Mage.

@Glen

I am simply presenting cases I see and believe to be true in my eyes, and in my current case of voting for Carthrat, it is actually Smodges case originally!

By that, do you mean you're not the one at fault because the argument was originally made by Smodge?

That he voted against me means very little against my intention to vote against him.

What do you mean by this statement? Are you trying to say it's not omgus, or something else?

Sorry, little confused by what you're driving at. Some clarification would be nice.

I'm also very suspicious of your heavy defence of Excal, this particularly strike me as something a townie would do.  Also by attacking my case so Harshly you are further trying to subdue certain discussion while only promoting things you yourself find relevant, which again strikes me as scummy in nature.  While I'm fine with people disagreeing with my assessment, saying that my assessment is void so bluntly is just way to untownlike to ignore.

There's so much wrong here, that I'm not even going to try and break it down. Just imagine that I got a big red highlighter, and highlighted this entire paragraph.

@Tonfa

Not jumping on any conclusion about Mage until he returns.

Do you believe he will have some great incite to offer? From what I can see, he's decided to "wait for Delta", then he came under heavy fire and ran away. Currently you are deferring judgment and waiting for Mage to return who is waiting for Delta to return... it's getting stupid, and it looks like a series of delay tactics to me. It's a common scum tactic to simply lurk day 1, and "waiting for people to post" is a great way to accomplish that.
In the first place, I can't see what incite Delta's comments will bring to Mage, but it makes even less sense for you to believe that such insights are worth waiting for. By waiting for his comments about whatever Delta is about to post, it shows that you have a reason to trust Mage; frankly, this would be unfounded town behavior.

After all, he managed to be the scummiest looking player in the game and lynched D1 as town in the last game...though there is little to go on during day 1 other than lynching the scummiest playing player.

I don't support such logic, but, wouldn't that mean you just advocated lynching someone who could be just as easily town as scum - purely because it's day 1?

Geez double massive ninja. Gonna grab food then read it after.

[EvilTom]

Nothing to add, except that I can't spell insight*

[Tonfa]

@Tom: Would "I can't read Mage based on his current contributions" make you happier? I am not waiting for him to get the crystal ball of philosopher's stone or whatever insight from Delta, I am keeping an eye on his any posting activity. I don't trust him; I just don't necessarily think he is scum...because the bad play is at least consistent.

"Could as well be town or scum" is about the worst I'm picking up on anyone here currently. Bad players are a huge liability at LYLO; it is to town's benefit to lynch them. ...

Ah, heck, I am convincing myself of this case through this rebuttal.

##Unvote
##Vote: Magetastic

And now I'm going to get some rest.

[Ranmilia]

##Unvote: Alice
##Vote: Rat

Awful lotta words being put out here but not so much I can get from em.  BITTER ARGUMENTATION day 1 isn't so good, scum are about equally likely to be participating in it or hanging back.  What I can gather is a pretty townie read on Mage and a scumdar ping on Rat's tone, particularly his last post there.  

Ninja'd by someone voting Mage.  Can you really see Mage coming out with "I need to hear Delta!" on day 1 as scum?  I can't, it makes no sense as a gambit, seems like a very boneheaded townie thing.

[Glen Veil]

this particularly strike me as something a townie would do.

Is a typo yes, townie should be scum and strike should be plural.

What do you mean by this statement? Are you trying to say it's not omgus, or something else?

Sorry, little confused by what you're driving at. Some clarification would be nice.

It was pretty much just a wordy way of saying that the vote wasn't omgus, yes.

@Excal
While Smodge's argument could do well to be a tad clearer, I'm still rather convinced.  In fact now that I look at his post compared to you're quote I'm inclined to question why you left out the first half of Smodge's post, where he clearly states that the non Kiro trains he was referencing were the Yoshi and Mage trains, the Yoshi train losing a vote shortly before his post, and the Mage train similarly forming shortly before his post.  The only point I'm inclined to respect from your post is point 2, which isn't the greatest point by itself.

Also you are quite correct in me currently seeing you and Carthrat as scumbuddies, coming to someones defense day one when there is a fairly decent lack of leads just screams scum to me.  I'm inclined to say that my accusation was probably the first one made with serious intent to lynch, with Kiro's being the only vote to possibly come before it with intent to lynch.

Maintaining vote now with

##FoS: Excal

[Excal]

Glen, I guess I can't really see the Mage train as being in any way relevant to Rat's post because Rat's last post before Smodge posted is #25.  While the Mage post that started his train was #31, and Smodge's post is #39.  This is followed up by Rat's first post since the one I linked above, which is #41.

There's no logical way you can argue that Rat was trying to take attention away from the Mage Train given that it hadn't started by the time he made his post.

[Excal]

Edited for fixed links.

Glen, I guess I can't really see the Mage train as being in any way relevant to Rat's post because Rat's last post before Smodge posted is #25.  While the Mage post that started his train was #31, and Smodge's post is #39.  This is followed up by Rat's first post since the one I linked above, which is #41.

There's no logical way you can argue that Rat was trying to take attention away from the Mage Train given that it hadn't started by the time he made his post.

[Yoshiken]

Le cases~

Mage: Looks to me like he's made a couple of posts, been pressured a lot, moved onto the defensive and fallen back from there. Don't think it looks so much like Mafia as just badly played. Overall neutral read on him for me.

Rat/Excal: Yeah, I'm not really seeing the case against these guys -too- much. I seriously doubt they're a Mafia team based on "They defended each other!" because their defences seemed to be mostly agreeing with each other's logic, not aimless defences. I'm not liking the read of Rat's posts, but... eh. Personal opinion and all.

Glen: I'm.. definitely seeing a strong case here. I'm not liking the logic at all, although that's just reiterating the same cases that have already been presented. The main one that caught my eye was the "You have to be happy that you were voted!" ...You do? Seems to me that the usual response is to defend yourself instead... like you have. You weren't happy about being voted, it seems. Does that make you Mafia? For now, I think I'm pretty happy to:
##Unvote Bardiche.
##Vote: Glen Veil.

Outside of those three, no particular reads on anyone. Sort of agree with Mage saying about Kiro acting new while having experience, but that's not really the sort of argument I like to rely on. Tom's looking pretty damn good already. A few people have dropped off the radar (or not appeared in the first place) and need to return pretty soon, ideally.

[Xanth]

##Unvote: Yoshiken

Here I am. I know no one actually cares, but at the moment I'm currently sleeping ~1am-9am BST (GMT+1), and am definitely busy from 3pm-4:30pm BST just about every day, so yes, that leaves plenty of time to be involved or at least refresh the thread fairly often while doing other stuff.

Anyway.

I don't like the angle on Mage either (Alex got there first). Mistakes all over the shop and flustering under pressure sure, but this does just smack of newbie rather than scum. This train mostly writes itself - more pressure leading to more flustering leading to more votes and so on. Focusing on it too much too early sounds like a really easy way to really waste day one. (I do read it as null rather than town-leaning as if he could do it as town then he could do it as scum before getting roped back in by a buddy)

Next down the list appears to be Rat. Smodge's push that gets it going is lost on me, as Rat's offending post reads as early day 1 discussion framing, plain and simple. If anything, I'd see it as distracting attention away from Yoshi rather than Excal, and I don't see the scum angle to leap in so early to save a buddy (assumedly, otherwise really, what?) so early on a train unlikely to go anywhere. Beyond that, the tussle looks like new guy/s just getting confused with Rat's style. Day 1 pairing Rat and Excal is certainly a daft reach.

Glen I just can't see at this point outside of being a gung ho new player trying too hard to make solid cases in the early phases of day 1. I'd like him to calm down a bit, but that's about it.

Excal's post here worries me not for the earlier offered reasons, but because it's a big ball of gas. I appreciate that it's the turning point at the end of the joke phase and all, but four paragraphs to say that you have nothing to say? I'm also not comfortable with how thick and fast you jumped on Mage, but I can't actually say worse of that than disagreeing with play style, as it's not like you've tried to railroad discussion in that direction. So at this point call it a bit of a wurgle over the focus on two new guys / easy targets when there are now avenues of discussion open.

The two I'm actually unhappy with at the moment are Kiro and Tonfa, where the actually dangerous delaying/lurking is coming from.

The early posts and votes aside, why has Kiro just been allowed to walk away without comment after this post? It's an even bigger ball of gas that actually says very little other than a set up for joining the Mage train. Add to this an unvote without a revote, actively delaying forming opinions and then not following up to comment on the rest of the game? Yessir, this is a better day 1 case at this point than hitting the new guys for bad play.

Tonfa rings warning bells, and not just for being quite so flaky between the new guys. "This guy looks scummiest but this one looks like a worse player so I'll vote for him"? Do tell me if I'm misreading that. Don't get me wrong, bad play is bad for town and should push people closer to the noose, but should surely be lower priority than lynching the scummy. Your play of trying to withhold judgement on Mage until he returns reads poorly, which Tom immediately picked out, and your reaction to him just looks like he's caught you with your fingers in the jar. The fact that the Glen vote could be read as hedging your bets between the two easiest trains doesn't help matters, but you're not the only one who could be painted in that light.

Third on the list would be Soppy for cheerleading the Mage train while keeping his own vote on Kiro for a weak start-of-day-1 case without further comment on it, which was fine at the time but not in comparison at that point, especially with Kiro having posted more since then, and especially when said post even discussed Soppy's concerns.

.
I was originally planning on voting for Kiro, but Tonfa's play as really been nagging at me as I've been writing this, and it bothers me more than Kiro's clusterfuck. I'd be happy to vote for either them at this point, Soppy at a push, but:

##Vote: Tonfa

[Bardiche]

Hi guys!

Okay, right off the bat, I'm dropping my jokevote: ##UNVOTE:

The Glen case certainly has its points, but I'm not entirely sold on voting him. He does raise my hackles with suddenly branding Excal and Rat scumbuddies at Day 1, and generally complaining Excal tunnel-visions town into something while... doing something eerily similar himself.

Regardless, much more hackle raising is something that my colleague* Xanth picked up quite adeptly: Tonfa.

Really, Tonfa, bro, my eternal nemesis. What's up with that vote on Magetastic? I mean, sure, Magetastic is Delta Mk II and his contributions are Psyduck-worthy, but selling your vote on him as a town thing to do always makes me wary and suspicious, not to mention you didn't want to vote him until pressed for it?

##VOTE: Tonfa, pretty comfortable with that.

* DON'T READ ANYTHING INTO THIS, JUST BEING FRIENDLY

[Smashy]

This is one sheep that'll make you dream... forever



... especially near barrels


Votecount

Rat (3): Tonfa, Smodge, Glen, Alex
Glen (2): Bard, Rat, Tonfa, Yoshi
Bard (0): Glen, Yoshi
Alex (1): Delta
Tonfa (2): Xanth, Bard
Excal (0): Mage, Glen
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (0): Mage
Mage (3): Tom, Excal, Tonfa
Delta (0):
Yoshi (0): Xanth, Excal, Kiro
Xanth (0):
Alice (0): Smodge, Alex
Kiro (1): Soppy, Rat, Mage

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in 28 hours.

[Alice]

Was going to post here but then My Immortal came up in an IRC channel I was in and then after that I felt like working on a math research problem I'm trying to puzzle through and then I realised that I really should post here. Anyway, while I'm very, VERY tempted to vote Magetastic for invoking the gambler's fallacy, even jokingly, we have bigger fish to fry:

Dislike Yoshiken and his "oh hey let's try to create a lurking table this is obviously useful" idea, but it doesn't seem like something scum'd suggest, even by mistake. Might be an attempt to be a little Too Townie, but that's not worth a vote, not by any means.

Dislike Kiro's vote for Yoshi, it reads like an attempt to vote someone for any reason disguised as a joke vote.

Dislike Magetastic's completely randomass vote on Tom, then his completely randomass vote on Kiro to "generate more discussion". Despite this seeming like a clever idea, it bears little towards Kiro's alignment, given how much Kiro has posted, and I'm unconvinced it's valid scumhunting.

I have no idea what in the actual fuck Glen Veil #30 is going on about, his reasons for finding Excal as scum (even "shooting through the roof on his scum radar!") to be...confusing and not really...existent?

Magetastic: except your attempt at creating discussion is not only patently stupid, but it's also awkwardly directed towards a specific player.

My gut instinct isn't so much that Kiro is scummy, necessarily, but moreso that if we continue to discuss Kiro and Kiro-related things, that the scum will reveal themselves. Again: No evidence, just gut instinct.

Why? Why Kiro specifically?

Then you go and unvote him anyway, and then FoS him. Why? Why are Delta's thoughts so important to you?

Glen Veil is making absolutely no sense at all in #51. I feel as if I'm reading Markov-Modelling-AI-based ""sentences"": they're semantically correct, but otherwise seem like complete nonsense.

The problem that I see, is, as Alex said in #57, the act of someone spewing nonsense, then claiming for opinions from Delta, then running away seems downright puzzling. However, I can easily see it as something a boneheaded scum would do: get text from Delta, which will invariably be incriminating as all hell because it's freaking Delta, then use it to vote for him. The issue is that...there are other wagons today. Why make such stupid statements? It's all quite puzzling and it's making reading Mage off the current material that he has posted quite a puzzling mess.

Really, at the moment I'm seeing Glen Veil the most as potential scum. The reactionary attitude is weird, trying to halt discussion is awkward and bad. More notably, why is it that coming to someone's defence is awkward and bad, if it is done after the jokevote phase but still during D1? Also your accusation with intent to lynch was admittedly based off of misunderstanding and "oh hey this person is commenting on these three people clearly he is scum!".

Also, for some reason your sentences are abnormally hard for me to parse compared to everyone else's. No clue why. Clearly, you are scum.

In any order,
##Vote: Glen Veil

Kiro is a second for being really damn awkward with basically all of his posts so far. While you did explain what your reasoning for voting Yoshi was, it's still damn strange and your further responses have been lacking. Am interested in seeing more content from you.

[Tonfa]

Checking in briefly...

"This guy looks scummiest but this one looks like a worse player so I'll vote for him"? Do tell me if I'm misreading that.

"Could as well be town or scum" is about the worst I'm picking up on anyone here currently.

I mean what I say, I don't have a solid opinion of anyone being likely scum. In which case I default to voting against play that is of no use to town and could just as well be scum, I'm not buying his bad play as a defense of his townieness any more as I buy it as a sign of scumhood, but what it is is detrimental. (*eyes last game in LYLO, living nonscum felt like posting almost absolutely nothing for 24 hours or so*) A reread of the topic is in order, but can't go for that right now.

[EvilTom]

* DON'T READ ANYTHING INTO THIS, JUST BEING FRIENDLY

  Awfully defensive there aren't you Bard? ;)

A lot has been said, but not a lot to change my mind.
I'm not buying the Rat/Excal scumteam argument at all.

Also I see no reason to move my vote. A couple of other people have aroused my suspicion, but not moreso, thus I shall leave it where it is.

What concerns me most are the people hanging back, content to let trains go full steam ahead. But it's only about halfway through day 1, so it's a bit early to be calling out lurkers just yet, and timezones etc. so maybe in another 12 hours it will be worthwhile looking at.

/signing off for the night

[Magetastic]

This is depressing. Still no Delta. Which means still nothing to say there. Sorry guys.

Quick reasoning for the lack of real reasons: I'm still trying to scumhunt, in case some of the less active players are scum (Just a quick heads-up, how many scum/scum-teams are there gonna be in a game of 15?). And when I had almost nothing to go on, I had to try and promote discussion from them instead. Or from others about them. However, if I tell the possi-scum what I'm expecting from them, it allows them a defense. And as for my vote-switch, that was because I feel I made a mistake voting for Tom, as, like I said and most everyone's skipped over, promoting discussion felt like the better move than getting someone to say "Hey guys, I'm here. Wtf are you voting me, Mage?"
Btw, alice? It's Kiro specifically because he stood out.
@ Soppy: I wasn't 'cutting and running' I actually had my internet cut out. What am I supposed to do when that happens, hm?

Scumhunting is priority #1. I stand by this.

And about the scumhunting...
Tonfa just makes no sense to me. Pointed at me, said "could be town or scum, I don't know. I'll wait until he posts." Then puts up a vote on Glen Veil, saying he was the scummiest looking player and halting discussion (which makes sense. Halting discussion D1 is scummy), then consequently halted discussion himself, aside from, well, discussion on him. But that's still pretty hypocratic. Next, when his fingering me brought up discussion and incriminated him, Tonfa flailed around and threw a vote on me, taking his vote off of Glen, despite there being something there, and all he had on me was 'could be town, could be scum.' Wishy-washiness, backdooring, train-jumping, and just general behaviour seems scummy to me.

##Vote Tonfa

[Kiro]

All I can say about my lack of input after 9:30 PM (PST) is that I'm playing another Mafia game and have to devote time to that as well.

I don't agree with Smodge saying that Rat was being light hearted while in serious mode. Rat had a point against me and Rat saying "typical predatory scum" strikes me as serious even if the point is arguably hyperbole.

Mage waiting for Delta: Um... ok. What I do know about this is that Mage introduced a WIFOM that he definitely did not need to do and could have avoided doing in the first place. All while being on the fence in regards to me. You asked me to convince you to take your vote off of me and I guess I managed to do that halfway... so you're just testing the waters and are not willing to either commit or pull out?

Soppy just echoes the obvious statement about Mage re: Delta, all of this without ever commenting on my last post. Not a lot of discussion or original content there. For having confirmed your vote on me as serious, you don't seem to be taking me seriously in your #47. And there still isn't much of originality from him right now. Come forward man.

Glen thinking about the mutual defense between Rat and Excal definitely feels more like a newbie misconception and I'm not sure I could see Newb Scum Glen being that aggressive in pushing something like that forward. He's getting hammered for it so it's either a gross miscalculation if he's Scum, or a Townie error that both Town or Scum could get on him for. I do see what Excal is getting at with #59 though and I think it's interesting that Glen's #58 is considering all of this after the fact rather than at the time. Looks like an incorrect justification of his case on Rat and I want to see his response.

I dislike the idea that Tonfa puts out in #56 about bad players being liabilities. He doesn't necessarily think Mage is Scum, but says, let's vote him because I don't really want to see him in LYLO. That's just willing to accept him as a mislynch which is not the right attitude for Townies to take. Besides, there are a number of ways through power roles that a bad Townie can possibly be cleared with. You play to lynch Scum, not to lynch bad players and your primarily labeling him as a bad player more than Scum is ringing warning bells. This after Tonfa voted Glen for being the scummiest player around and he has not even bothered to mention Glen at all since then despite the variety of topics regarding Glen. Bad priorities and inconsistent scumhunting is going to earn my vote.

##Vote Tonfa

Cut by Mage: The admission that there was nothing really to the Delta angle is noted. Meh. At least the vote on Tonfa finally looks like a decent one.

[Hunter Sopko]

Sorry for backtracking a bit, but it took me this long to figure out what exactly bothered me about this post of Excal's: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72049#msg72049

As people have noted with my argument previous, it's a softball day 1 argument. I'm actually fine sticking to it, but even I see that it's not entirely built rock solid. Meanwhile, we have Excal who has been playing hyper-aggressive townie all day. This cheerleading response to my argument seemed... off to me. Especially when he says he's trying to direct discussion, instead he has a summary post which says... nothing. And he admits it and tries to play it off as "LOL silly me" at the end.

This doesn't add up to me, since judging from how Excal's played so far he probably should have been the first to jump on my case. I probably would've been fine with it had it not had point C saying that there are holes in it, but for the points previous he's sticking with his other vote, but he doesn't. So...

##UNVOTE: Kiro
##VOTE: Excal

I'm not completely sold on Excal and Rat being scumbuddies, but it'd be something to look at if Excal turned up scum. Random defense by townies happens a lot and can always throw a wrench in things.

@Mage: You don't defend yourself well, do you? I get that scumhunting takes priority, but you could at least give a cursory reason why you chose Delta out of everyone. Scumhunting IS priority, but being random with your actions with no explanations doesn't help town. However, in your last post your argument against Tonfa definitely shows a solid case for you being townie.

I'm not onboard for the Tonfa train yet, but inconsistant play is always something to look at. I'll hear from Excal first.

[Laggy]

Votecount

Rat (3): Tonfa, Smodge, Glen, Alex
Glen (3): Bard, Rat, Tonfa, Yoshi, Alice
Bard (0): Glen, Yoshi
Alex (1): Delta
Tonfa (4): Xanth, Bard, Mage, Kiro
Excal (1): Mage, Glen, Soppy
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (0): Mage
Mage (3): Tom, Excal, Tonfa
Delta (0):
Yoshi (0): Xanth, Excal, Kiro
Xanth (0):
Alice (0): Smodge, Alex
Kiro (0): Soppy, Rat, Mage

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in 23 hours.

[Magetastic]

Well, if all your asking for is just a clue as to what I was looking for from Delta, then I'm fine with that. I was attempting to metagame with one of the very few people I'd played with/gotten any sort of a feel for.

[Yoshiken]

I... yeah, wow. That case on Tonfa sticks out horribly. I won't reiterate the whole case, but: "Bad players are a huge liability at LYLO; it is to town's benefit to lynch them." Uhh. How is it -ever- advantageous to Town to lynch other Townies? Seems like a simple bad choice of phrasing, but damn, that's a majorly bad choice.

I'm not really buying Sopko's case on Excal, personally. It strikes me as a little suspicious, sure, but that's one post amidst a whole sea of other potential cases, and there are people who look much, much worse.

At this stage, I'm somewhat tied between either Glen or Tonfa for most Mafia-like. I'm happy leaving my vote where it is for now, at least, while things develop a little more.

[Glen Veil]

I'm not really seeing how I'm stifling discussion, most of my recent posts have simply been in defense on my position.  I know I'm aggressive, but it's not like I'm jumping into every other discussion and immediately dismissing them then referencing back to my own.

It seems like alot of people don't really like this statement that I made:

While I am glad you're happy about my spin off from what you said, I feel like you have to play being happy even if you aren't, since if you weren't happy about my assessment, it would almost be a sure giveaway of scumminess.

Probably a bit to snarky in style. In hindsight I was probably a bit overzealous in thinking that I had some sort of successful scumtrap on Excal.

@Excal
Your #58 post doesn't make much sense to me, when has the Mage train ever been relevant to Carthrat?  If you're referring to Smodge's post, he briefly talks about the two trains, one being Mage, and then switches to an entirely different area of Carth's view on Kiro.  This whole back and forth really feels like you're trying to get me to justify possible faults you think you see in Smodge's post which I originally used to switch over to Rat, which is something I cannot accurately do since I am not Smodge.  The only thing I can do is justify the way I view his post, and so far it still seems to be a fairly solid case, more so then others at the moment to me.

While I haven't gone out of my way to make cases elsewhere, I just haven't felt the need yet.  Despite this, my aggressiveness seems to have provoked discussion among others and in that discussion are new cases being made.  I can't see how my current style is hindering discussion outside of this.

The case being made on Tonfa is interesting, I'm interested to see how that plays out.  Excal was starting to drop down in suspicion to me, but then he put up what to me were some rather rushed and sloppy cases against Slodge's post.  Rat feels like he's trying to make a case on me for voting Excal, but Excal more so strikes me as trying to make my case on either him or Rat sound less sound, which feels kind of like a town who believes I'm an overreacting newbie town, much like how others have previously said.  That said, I still seem him more suspiciously then I do others right now.

Keeping suspicions on Excal and Rat for now, though the tonfa case looks interesting.

I would actually also like to second Mage's inquire about the usual Mafia to Town ratio in a 15 player game.  I feel like I went a little to hard on looking for plausible scum and rather neglected looking for fellow townies.