[Game Over] Worms Armageddon Mafia

[Yoshiken]

Glen's last post reads much more as newbie Town than as Mafia, lowering my suspicion of him -slightly-. 'Course, seeing as I was tied between the two before, I will:

##Unvote: Glen Veil.
##Vote: Tonfa.

[Kiro]

Soppy: You're clearly using a bit of meta to justify this vote on Excal; that Town Excal in your mind would have jumped on you etc etc. That certainly can be your suspicion, but your case pretty much reads as "Excal is Too Townie" which is never a particularly strong case and relies a bit more on voting history and flips to resolve. In other words, not liking it as a Day 1 case. You also ignored my concerns in that you're just going right to Excal and haven't said anything about me or my new post AGAIN. I really want to see where the serious vote on me has disappeared to.

This whole back and forth really feels like you're trying to get me to justify possible faults you think you see in Smodge's post which I originally used to switch over to Rat, which is something I cannot accurately do since I am not Smodge.  The only thing I can do is justify the way I view his post, and so far it still seems to be a fairly solid case, more so then others at the moment to me.

So you used someone else's case as a basis for your vote and yet are not able to determine how to justify said person's case because you're not him. Pretty much then, you really don't have an original point regarding Rat and are riding on gut and the coattails of someone else. I don't know what to think of this because your initial vote on Excal was somewhat original... Tell us how Carthrat as an individual is scummier than Excal as an individual for starters.

Going to lunch. If I have time, I'll sneak in peeks of this topic in the afternoon, but otherwise, I won't be able to post till evening.

[Glen Veil]

So you used someone else's case as a basis for your vote and yet are not able to determine how to justify said person's case because you're not him. Pretty much then, you really don't have an original point regarding Rat and are riding on gut and the coattails of someone else. I don't know what to think of this because your initial vote on Excal was somewhat original... Tell us how Carthrat as an individual is scummier than Excal as an individual for starters.

What I was attempting to say there was less "I don't know how to justify this other person's case I'm using" and more "I don't understand why you're asking me to justify the original case instead of my views regarding the original case on said person."

Excal is has tried to break Smodge's case, which really makes sense since breaking that would also make my initial views on Rat rather moot.  I just felt that it seemed like he was presenting those cracks in Smodge's theory to me, and by extension asking me to justify them instead of the original poster, instead of possibly asking why I agreed with them and going from there.

Looking back at Excal's post 52, I find it odd that Excal puts Smodge's post at fault to try and make my own reasons at fault by extension, but then goes to say but that doesn't matter.  Why would he try to show flaws in an argument and then go:

However, I'm sure that's not what you're thinking about.  I'm sure you're thinking something more along the lines of "Egads!  Rat defended Excal, and now Excal's defending Rat!  Obviously they are Scum Chums Forever!"

The only reason I'm still rather suspicious of Excal is the general sloppiness of his arguments.  In his first attempt to denounce Smodge's points, he left out the first half of the quote, which pretty clearly to me denounces one of his very points.  And in that same post he talks about weeding out bad arguments.  Rereading that post puts him back up top to me though, if ever so slightly.

##Unvote: Carthrat
##Vote: Excal

[Bardiche]

Yeah, what, Glen? Can you... try to stay consistent?

You keep switching votes. This is a sign of wishiwashiness. Decide who is scummiest. Stop going back and forth between "Well on re-read..."

##UNVOTE: Tonfa
##VOTE: Glen Veil

While Tonfa is making me go 'argh what', I can't say that takes precedence over Glen 'What the Hell' Veil right now. Your arguments so far have not been sound, and I have found them rather shoddy. Moreover, your hypocrisy is most vexing.

Your initial charge against Excal was, and correct me if I'm wrong, "You're accentuating things, that'll make townies likely to discuss those things and scum won't have to train someone (else)", but while there's various cases springing up around you, all you do is "Well, Tonfa case is interesting!" and then happily proceed to go on and on and on about solely Excal and Carthrat - against the latter you 'borrow' a case from Smodge to make up your own mind on, and when questioned suddenly you jump back to Excal.

Then you come around with this gem:

Excal is has tried to break Smodge's case, which really makes sense since breaking that would also make my initial views on Rat rather moot.

What? Your case against Rat breaks if Smodge's does? Uh, yeah, let's try not relying on someone else's case in a game where anyone could be lying.

I'm not at all happy with your conduct, and not at all satisfied with the wishywashiness of your voting record.

[Magetastic]

Nothing really new to say, but deadline is on it's way. Could the less active people please pop up and offer their thoughts?

[Tonfa]

For anyone saying that I advocate lynching town(Yoshi), I would like to direct you to three simple bullet points

- I said I had no suspects in particular
- No lynching D1 is terrible
- All things equal, I would rather take out a player that muddies up discussion

Looks like I have to spell out the Glen thing despite liking concise though; having no suspects at the time means that his next post made me second guess myself and no longer think of him as scum, because nothing else happened during that time that could have changed that opinion. Simple. Looks like I'll have to be more wordy about things like this.

Re: Mafia to town ratio in a 15 player game: Generally 3-4 scum, depending on how the setup is adjusted otherwise.

On a re-read...honestly, while I got an overenthusiastic town newbie vibe from Glen's post after my vote on him, he then started riding the "This is smodge's case I'm not responsible" car hard, and then...switches off it when this is brought to attention, and tries to present the one who challenged the case in the first place as scum for...challenging the case. What? No. You're not deflecting attention, or, should I say, stifling discussion as you'd put it, that way. Suspicions of scum reaffirmed in much higher force.

##Unvote
##Vote: Glen Veil

[Glen Veil]

I was not really aware that I had multiple cases made on me.  I was more so under the impression that it was more multiple people making the same case on me, which is that I'm overly aggressive vs Excal and Carthrat.

You're also putting words in my mouth, if Smodge's case breaks then my initial case on Carth would break yes, it doesn't change my other suspicions of his rapid defense of Excal among others.

I'm not really sure whats wrong with my voting record, Excal gets my first serious vote, Carth to me at the time then makes a rather suspicious move of defending Excal, and Smodge's case helps to increase my suspicion, so I change my vote, and then Excal makes some shoddy arguments to me which brings my suspicion level of him back over Carth, so I changed it.  I finally changed my vote back to Excal, because his arguments just seemed less sound and more flawed.  This along with Sopko(?) I want to say describing Carth's reaction as not necessarily being pro-scum, I decided that Excal is more likely to be a Mafia hit of the two, and hence the change of vote.

Honestly, I don't see very much wishy washiness in voting between the two people I view as scummiest.  Especially when the votes are separated by reasonable periods of time, there are others besides me who have also changed their vote 3 times.

The reason I haven't be present in the other various cases is because I simply haven't felt inclined to, no one has really asked for my opinion, and I generally get the feeling that people are waiting for me to back down from this argument and to support one elsewhere to claim the very thing you have claimed on me: being Wishy Washy.  I'm not really inclined to change where I stand until day 2 if I make it there.

In the meantime, I would be happy to give my views on where everyone stands currently through my eyes if you wish to hear them.

[Bardiche]

You're also putting words in my mouth, if Smodge's case breaks then my initial case on Carth would break yes, it doesn't change my other suspicions of his rapid defense of Excal among others.

So you admit your initial case wasn't even a real case. You were just parroting and following someone else, when you have no knowledge of whether they are scum or town. This does not make it any better, and still catches the same spirit of what I am holding against you. It just doesn't strike me as a town thing to do when anyone could be lying or bullshitting a case.

I'm not really sure whats wrong with my voting record

You're jumping between the same two targets. Multiple times. This is wishiwashiness, and reflects poorly to me. Continuous jumping between two targets is confusing. If you can't be sure of who your target for the lynch is, how do you hope to convince others?

Honestly, I don't see very much wishy washiness in voting between the two people I view as scummiest.  Especially when the votes are separated by reasonable periods of time, there are others besides me who have also changed their vote 3 times.

Yes, on different people accompanied by their cases. Yours is just re-iterating the same case, altered by "oh, now I think he's scum" and "no, nevermind, the other one's scum".

The reason I haven't be present in the other various cases is because I simply haven't felt inclined to, no one has really asked for my opinion

So do you feel none of the other cases (Tonfa and Magetastic, any others?) are possible scum?

[Glen Veil]

Smodge initially did bring my attention to Carth yes, but Carth also decided to defend Excal before I managed to post, so in a way my initial case is only half reliant on Smodge's point.  I would like to think that in general if there are multiple cases being made against someone then breaking one of those cases would make the overall case against the person less incriminating.

The only person I've jumped on more then once is Excal, I switched once back to Carthrat, and recent just went back to Excal due to how I perceive his rebuttles and due to what is a decent thought opinion of Carthrat's style to just generally post in the manner that he has.  At no point have I said I think one or the other is now innocent, just less suspicious.  I'm still leaning heavy scum on both and if I could I would honestly vote for both.

As for who else I'm leaning on for plausible scum:

Mage: is Mage, his style of play strikes me as pretty much exactly the same as his previous Mafia, and as such I'm inclined to think he's just an awkwardly played pro town, as others have said before.

Tonfa: I get scumvibes from him, but only slight ones, I'm much more inclined to stick to Excal at this point and wait to see if any more cases can be made on him.

Sopko, Alex, Eviltom, and Yoshi all strike me as Protown

Alice, and Xanth strike me as Protown, though I wish they would post more.

Smodge has not posted since his attack on Carth, and honestly it isn't sitting well with me, this is part of the reasoning of me switching back to Excal, I'm kind of interested to see him post again soon.

Delta is lurking pretty bad, but I'm inclined towards neutral until he says something.

Kiro and you I'm somewhat neutral on, maybe with a slight leaning towards scum, though I'm least likely to be convinced of you two as scum at the moment unless something really incriminating comes up.

[Excal]

Well, back from work.  Glen, it'll take me a bit of time to scrounge up an adequate reply to most of your points, however, there is one answer I can give you right now.  Namely, my reason for hounding you is mostly just because you are new and you are talkative, this means that I can really take some efforts to try and figure you out so that I can get a good read on you.

As for Sopko, well, from what I can tell, your big concern with me is that a) I didn't join your case on Kiro, and b) that I very quickly abandoned my position on Yoshi for one on Mage.

a) I already covered, it's point B.  I don't jump on the first guy to promote controversy unless my jumping on him is what starts the controversy.  May be an odd code to hold, but I really don't want to discourage sticking one's neck out to start Day 1.

As for b), that's simple.  Yoshi was a joke vote, Mage wasn't.  And by the time he inserted his foot into his mouth, discussion was alive and well, even without Yoshi's train thanks to Glen and Mage.  So, I switched.  Sure I had just made a post stating I was going to stay on Yoshi, but when circumstances change, the votes need to be able to change with them.

Bard, you should pay attention to that too.  While Glen is just swapping his vote back and forth, he's at least staying consistant about which two he's gunning for, and there does seem to be some thought about which one of his targets deserves the vote more.

[EvilTom]

I promised I'd look at lurkers towards the end of D1, and here we are. The lurker award goes to...  Alex, Smodge, Alice and Xanth - four way tie! However the award between them goes to Alex! With two posts, one of which was a joke-vote, his only contributing post at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72095#msg72095 was quite short. Quality over quantity yes, but we'd like to hear more from you man! Don't be shy, speak up! Smodge has received some criticisms that he hasn't responded to, I'd like to hear those answers. Xanth should come back too, yes. Alice may have only made one post, but no joke-votes so the same as the others, and her post was long & detailed.
I'm not saying these people are a lurking scumteam or whatever, but we need everyone involved
*Delta looks like he might have dropped or something, or HE GOT GROUNDED FROM THE INTERNET, WHO KNOWS!?! So I'll ignore him, as he's up for modkill.

Onto other matters~

I'm concerned about the clusterfuck of cases going on right now. I'm wary of the "this person is acting horribly, but they're probably just noob-town" line of thought, because I've fallen to it before and suffered scum to live; I shall not make that mistake again.

@Glen, why do you think Alex is protown? I've called him out for barely posting. You said Alice and Xanth need to post more, but what about Alex and Smodge?  Also you're giving Mage a pass because he was previously noob town - do his actions align with a possible noob-scum?
If Smodge looks scummy to you, why would that make you switch your vote to Excal?

@Bard: Good work etc, try not to get mono-railed on Glen though. THere are other people around who might also be scum.

@Mage

Nothing really new to say, but deadline is on it's way. Could the less active people please pop up and offer their thoughts?

Mage, could you please try and say soemthing town-like so I could consider the possibility of unvoting you someday? I mean, you had no dramatic revelation when delta never turned up, and now it's just "Oh well, day will end soon, dum de dum, other people need to talk - but not me!". This does not sit well with me, so my vote sits well with you. Please talk about cases or something!

Scumhunting is priority #1. I stand by this.

I've yet to see you do it, other than copying everyone else's case on Tonfa (which I could totally claim credit for ;P).

But that's still pretty hypocratic. Next, when his fingering me brought up discussion and incriminated him,

Wahaha. Tonfa is a rapist doctor now.

@Yoshi - need to write more. I appreciate concise, but a little more won't hurt.

CRIKEY ITS WINDY OUTSIDE I THINK OUR FENCE IS GOING TO BLOW AWAY MATE
I'm off to an anime convention! Bai~!!! ^_^

[Laggy]

Votecount

Rat (2): Tonfa, Smodge, Glen, Alex
Glen (4): Bard, Rat, Tonfa, Yoshi, Alice, Bard, Tonfa
Bard (0): Glen, Yoshi
Alex (1): Delta
Tonfa (4): Xanth, Bard, Mage, Kiro, Yoshi
Excal (2): Mage, Glen, Soppy, Glen
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (0): Mage
Mage (2): Tom, Excal, Tonfa
Delta (0):
Yoshi (0): Xanth, Excal, Kiro
Xanth (0):
Alice (0): Smodge, Alex
Kiro (0): Soppy, Rat, Mage

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in 16 hours.

Mod note: Unless Delta posts beforehand, he will be modkilled for inactivity at the end of Day 1.

[Glen Veil]

why do you think Alex is protown? I've called him out for barely posting. You said Alice and Xanth need to post more, but what about Alex and Smodge?  Also you're giving Mage a pass because he was previously noob town - do his actions align with a possible noob-scum?
If Smodge looks scummy to you, why would that make you switch your vote to Excal?

Smodge's case was on Carthrat, not Excal, as such, it makes me less inclined to lean Carthrat as more scummy.  Since I wasn't really buying Excal's arguments and Carth is slowly seeming less scummy due to people noting his particular writing style and Smodge's absence, I was inclined to switch back to Excal.  As I have noted before though, I'm still inclined to suspect both of them as scum until I see how the lynch/murder for day and night one turn out.

I honestly thought that Alex had posted more for some reason, after actually looking it over, I'm more inclined to put him in a neutral position with needs to post more in the description.  I suspect admitting to this is likely to get me more votes given current circumstances.

[Smodge13]

Ok been a while so where to begin
Warning imminent wall of words/mass quoting (on day one of all things >.>)

Yoshi Case

Ah, but stereotypes have to start somewhere, meaning there is clearly logic behind this... somewhere.

So, uhh... who's alive at the moment? Who's alive when, generally? I'd like to get an idea of when people are around and not, seeing as that plays a part in judging lurking in later days.

Also, just for the record, I have a lot of plans over the next few days, so might not be able to post as often as I'd like to. I should be around often enough, but don't expect my usual activity here. Just a forewarning.

Clearly looking to know when people are expected to be on so that they can be judged for lurking, Yoshi's original post earlier in the day seemed light hearted but this one took a step towards seriousness, accusing a perosn of lurking just because they haven't been online when they should is definitely a bad argument thats why the above comment seems like a scumtell to me

I... yeah, wow. That case on Tonfa sticks out horribly. I won't reiterate the whole case, but: "Bad players are a huge liability at LYLO; it is to town's benefit to lynch them." Uhh. How is it -ever- advantageous to Town to lynch other Townies? Seems like a simple bad choice of phrasing, but damn, that's a majorly bad choice.

I'm not really buying Sopko's case on Excal, personally. It strikes me as a little suspicious, sure, but that's one post amidst a whole sea of other potential cases, and there are people who look much, much worse.

At this stage, I'm somewhat tied between either Glen or Tonfa for most Mafia-like. I'm happy leaving my vote where it is for now, at least, while things develop a little more.

Ok here we see Yoshi in what seems to be reporter mode, he does the same in his previous posts, he looks at the cases and simply reports his opinion on them, but this is what really gets me.
Start of the post he discards Tonfa's comment as bad phrasing, but at the end Tonfa is on equal step with glen veil.

Finally

Glen's last post reads much more as newbie Town than as Mafia, lowering my suspicion of him -slightly-. 'Course, seeing as I was tied between the two before, I will:

##Unvote: Glen Veil.
##Vote: Tonfa.

A quick vote switch to Tonfa who Yoshi had earlier chalked the whole case up to being bad phrasing.

So i ask Yoshi what about the Case on Tonfa do you agree with, are there cases on others you like/dislike (what is your opinion on the people pressing those cases)

Moderate scum read here Yoshi at first displays information gathering for lurking but then types much but contributes little (other than a vote)

Magetastic
This guy really gets my hackles up. Screams newb-townie more than scum but that can be a dangerous trap

##Unvote Tom

On second thought, discussion is more important than the 'I'm alive!' post.

##Vote Kiro

I'm interested in more discussion. Convince me to take my vote off.

Convince you to take your vote off? for what? how? why was the vote initially put there?

Yes, Kiro. And my vote actually turned it into another train, as now both Yoshi and Kiro have an equal amount of votes on them. I could have voted for Alice to try and bring up discussion, but, honestly, I rather like where this Kiro discussion is going. Just... a good feeling. And if I've learned anything, it's to follow my instincts.

Instincts don't make reliable cases nor convince people EVER.
Also this can be used by scum so easily if ever people started to believe them, "my instincts say this person is scum"

My gut instinct isn't so much that Kiro is scummy, necessarily, but moreso that if we continue to discuss Kiro and Kiro-related things, that the scum will reveal themselves. Again: No evidence, just gut instinct.

Again instinct........ stop doing that and present some damn cases/logic

I am most positive. Delta's thoughts are #1 on my list of things I need.

*Cries*

Nothing really new to say, but deadline is on it's way. Could the less active people please pop up and offer their thoughts?

Finally, how about your thoughts mage? how about your opinion of cases and the people presenting them? how about something other than instinct?

The major problem with all this is it can be chalked up to newbie-townie or scum playing dumb really well and i have no clue which.

Time to look behind the Veil

Excal's most recent post has basically just attempted to direct even more attention to what right now are the most obvious tensions of Kiro, Soppy, and Yoshi.  This to me seems rather scummy, in that there's a good chance of getting people to be distracted by the things he pointed out.  To compound this Excal is also one of the first to get on a vote train at someone.

I may be new to mafia, but Excal just shot through the roof on my scum radar.

Directing attention to the vote trains is bad now?, tension promotes discussion as people attack/defend each other, in bold, this is even worse logic, the things he pointed out were logically sound, so long as the logic is accurate it helps present cases if someone comes out and admits their scum do you vote for the people who are voting for that person just because their pointing things out?

The vote switching between Excal and rat i can see as being scummy, however a train on Excal seems unlikely due to lack of presentable cases and i can see no benefit in switching between a train that won't happen and a small train so this occurs more to me to be a townie who is indecisive and thinks 2 people are scum.

Tonfa

Not jumping on any conclusion about Mage until he returns. After all, he managed to be the scummiest looking player in the game and lynched D1 as town in the last game...though there is little to go on during day 1 other than lynching the scummiest playing player.

Glen makes no sense to me. Focusing onto certain topics PROMOTES discussion. If you want to bring up something else, bring up a new topic instead of trying to hush current discussion because...it's too narrow-minded, you say? At some point or other, there needs to be a narrow focus for a lynch to take place at all. If some option seems neglected, it can then be brought up by anyone who feels like they have a decent case. It appears you're the one who only wants to promote the discussion you seem fit, as you consider Rat making a case on you (rather civilly compared to some of the more heated mafia cases along the way, despite what you say...) to be halting discussion for some reason.

@Tom: Would "I can't read Mage based on his current contributions" make you happier? I am not waiting for him to get the crystal ball of philosopher's stone or whatever insight from Delta, I am keeping an eye on his any posting activity. I don't trust him; I just don't necessarily think he is scum...because the bad play is at least consistent.

"Could as well be town or scum" is about the worst I'm picking up on anyone here currently. Bad players are a huge liability at LYLO; it is to town's benefit to lynch them. ...

Ah, heck, I am convincing myself of this case through this rebuttal.

##Unvote
##Vote: Magetastic

And now I'm going to get some rest.

Tonfa votes on 2 people who legitimately let off scum tells as i have directed earlier in my post

I mean what I say, I don't have a solid opinion of anyone being likely scum. In which case I default to voting against play that is of no use to town and could just as well be scum, I'm not buying his bad play as a defense of his townieness any more as I buy it as a sign of scumhood, but what it is is detrimental. (*eyes last game in LYLO, living nonscum felt like posting almost absolutely nothing for 24 hours or so*) A reread of the topic is in order, but can't go for that right now.

This i actually agree with to a degree, why else do we revert to LaL (lynch a lurker) on some day 1's but this sort of thing is only to be used when there is absolutely 0 cases even the least bit scummy

For anyone saying that I advocate lynching town(Yoshi), I would like to direct you to three simple bullet points

- I said I had no suspects in particular
- No lynching D1 is terrible
- All things equal, I would rather take out a player that muddies up discussion

Looks like I have to spell out the Glen thing despite liking concise though; having no suspects at the time means that his next post made me second guess myself and no longer think of him as scum, because nothing else happened during that time that could have changed that opinion. Simple. Looks like I'll have to be more wordy about things like this.

Re: Mafia to town ratio in a 15 player game: Generally 3-4 scum, depending on how the setup is adjusted otherwise.

On a re-read...honestly, while I got an overenthusiastic town newbie vibe from Glen's post after my vote on him, he then started riding the "This is smodge's case I'm not responsible" car hard, and then...switches off it when this is brought to attention, and tries to present the one who challenged the case in the first place as scum for...challenging the case. What? No. You're not deflecting attention, or, should I say, stifling discussion as you'd put it, that way. Suspicions of scum reaffirmed in much higher force.

##Unvote
##Vote: Glen Veil

Tonfa can we get some insight on your opinion on trains other than Mage and Glen?

Finally Rat
My initial Case was you were voting for Kiro (you post implied to me that your vote was now serious) based on the fact that he voted for someone who looked mildly scummy.
This is why i voted for you

All rats other posts seem to be attacking Glen and his case on Excal/himself

Rat what are your thoughts on the Tonfa case at the moment or any other case?

##Unvote: Rat
##Vote Yoshi

Rat followed by Mage would be the next 2 on my list
Rat seems pretty scummy but Yoshi seems worse at the present moment to me

Alex - Another who needs to post more.
Sopko - A bit more content would be good
Delta - Jokevote then gone......... i must admit i would like to hear delta's thoughts as its better than lurking.
Excal - Neutral Read nothing he says sticks out to me as scummy, his defence of rat is strange but even then he's attacking the cases presented which is what people do to catch scum.
Kiro - Rats case against him still makes no sense to me, Yoshis says something mildly scummy, kiro puts a vote on him for it and as such is scummy himself ? (this is the whole reason i voted rat)

[Excal]

Alright, Glen, here's your post.

For starters, you seem to feel that there's some great conspiracy in my ignoring the first half of Smodge's post, where he talks about Yoshi's Train and Mage's train.  And all he does is chatter about them a little.  It's good to know, but utterly worthless for our conversation.  Alright, fine.  However, it should be noted that at the time of Smodge's post there were three trains.  And at the time of Carthrat's post there were two trains.  Hell, thanks for pointing out to me the fact that Smodge completely forgot that at the time of his post there was a Kiro train.

So, why does Mage's Train matter in regard to Rat's post?  Because Smodge is calling Rat to task for trying to draw us away from it, apparently.  I completely missed that until reading the damned thing thoroughly.  I had just assumed he was talking about Kiro and Yoshi because those were the only two going on at the time.  However, while the way I wrote point three is apparently dashed, the core of that statement still stands.  Rat was bringing up someone who was important at the time.

The next point of contention, why am I holding you to Smodge's argument?  Well, I'm not, not really.  The discussion started when you used it as part of your support for a Rat vote.  I decided to poke holes in your argument, both taking apart Smodge's post, and asking some questions about your own position.  You only answered to the Smodge portion, and defended it.  You have since stated that it is an important piece of your support, which brings me to also question if you can defend the reasons you have found in it to level that vote.  After all, if you're going to use certain reasoning to vote for someone, you should be able to come up with something better than Smodge uses pretty, pretty words, right?

Of course, without that admission that Smodge's case is really important to yours, then none of that debate is really relevant for the debate between us.  And after you used a snarky reply to me on how thrilled I was when you voted for me, I figured a snarky reply back about why Rat defending me wasn't necessarily a scum tell.  Hell, you actually did nail a scum tell, just not the reason why it's a scum tell.  Look up Alex's lone post for that.

Finally, what I'd really like to know is.  Why do you keep harping on how I felt the need to discredit you by discrediting Smodge when a full half of that initial post had nothing to do with his post, and was on you and your positions?  Why is it that you claim that I'm the one who felt that post was overly important when you are the one who only answered questions based upon that part of my post and left the others to wither?

[Xanth]

Scum leanings, excitable newbies and absentees. It's not a mess I wanted to return to, and I probably shouldn't spend long here now.

Mage continues to hurt the head by sitting behind my argument against Tonfa and otherwise coasting now that the immediate heat is off of him (I realise he still has three votes squarely behind him). Not cool.

Interesting Comparison Time(!)

Bardiche on Glen:

I'm not really sure whats wrong with my voting record

You're jumping between the same two targets. Multiple times. This is wishiwashiness, and reflects poorly to me. [...]

Glen's voting record: Bardiche (joke vote) => Excal => Rat => Excal
Tonfa's voting record: Rat (joke vote) => Glen => Mage => Glen


Also this, just for fun:

Yeah, what, Glen? Can you... try to stay consistent?

You keep switching votes. This is a sign of wishiwashiness. Decide who is scummiest. Stop going back and forth between "Well on re-read..."

On a re-read...

[...]

##Unvote
##Vote: Glen Veil

And though I can't find a nice quote to frame this, Glen being hit for only talking about Excal and Rat and defending himself (which has now seen him offer opinions elsewhere) compares to Tonfa who... has talked singularly about Glen and Mage and defending himself.


Glen makes me squirm and I disagree with a lot of what he says, but he's been putting his neck out for this and has by some definition been consistent about it, whereas Tonfa's actions are far more background and stink of hedging bets between two 'easy' trains from the get go. Between the general positioning, the set up of the delayed Mage vote, the reaction to Tom shooting that down and now the messy backtracking (this post going with an angle that the rationale was that voting against bad town play is better than voting for weak scumtells being replaced by this then retconning the whole thing to read that his view on Glen had reset to neutral by the vote switch due to this post, which I really don't see) and the ol' switcheroo again now, this still looks about ten shades scummier than Glen's insanity plea.


Otherwise yeah, I was also hoping for the involvement of those who've yet to make a mark, which still hasn't really happened. I'd hoped to get through more, but it's long since gone my bedtime and I do seem to take bloody ages to write posts.

Edit: Countless ninjas, but they must wait for the morning.

[Carthrat]

I'm not really liking how Glen's case against me is phrased in terms of 'you defended Excal!' at present. If he's all but admitting Smodge's case on me is trash and that's all he's got, then I am compelled to point out that I was attacking Glen more than defending anyone. In a game where people's posts consist of arguments against other people, you are practically by definition defending someone every time you attack someone else, soo. I would agree that he's been consistant, but I'm failing to see the virtue here when his base cases are based on such trash (and rampant OMGUS to boot, ugh.) Glen's also taking quite a passive approach to other cases (re: Tonfa; 'let's wait to see if any other cases build on him'). Uh, or you could definitively decided on your own?

On Tonfa himself, justifying lynches along the lines of 'he's so bad he must die regardless of alignment' is a real copout. I wouldn't hold the switch from Glen->Mage against him without that involved, but as things stand he's been very light on the content and very high on 'going to where other people are' quotient.

He and Mage are on the same level of scummitude, really; on Mage's calling out Delta in order to meta-him instead of deal with a completely unrelated issue just makes no sense, but it's scummier than not because Delta himself is so easy. Glen is still pretty strongly ahead in my book, though (the reliance on Smodge's case and lack of judgement for himself is really grating.)

I'm really not seeing why anyone would ever call Alex pro-town right now. Since when was saying as little as possible protown? Please get involved.

Excal: You've pretty much spent the entire day arguing with Glen with other things on the sideline. Do you think he is scummy or not?

[Glen Veil]

@Excal, alright, from what I gather it looks like you're asking me two things, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The first thing comes from this:

The next point of contention, why am I holding you to Smodge's argument?  Well, I'm not, not really.  The discussion started when you used it as part of your support for a Rat vote.  I decided to poke holes in your argument, both taking apart Smodge's post, and asking some questions about your own position.  You only answered to the Smodge portion, and defended it.  You have since stated that it is an important piece of your support, which brings me to also question if you can defend the reasons you have found in it to level that vote.  After all, if you're going to use certain reasoning to vote for someone, you should be able to come up with something better than Smodge uses pretty, pretty words, right?

I think you're slightly overvaluing how important I saw Smodge's first post to my case on Carth, it was one of two things that I based on my initial suspicions on, for a while I felt the need to defend it.  I was probably a little too quick to jump on that bandwagon in retrospect, but at the same time I don't really regret it, since the resulting posts between you, Carth, and me have managed to garner reactions outside of the inner debate that others have apparently found useful.  As for my own personal case against you two, it's now more based off of what has come up in the arguments and how legitimate I view certain points as being.  I think if everyone where to give up a case as soon as their initial case seems less certain then town as a whole would probably get nowhere.  Even if starting accusations crumble the resulting discussion should almost always be useful.  Please note though that I don't consider the foundations of my starting accusations to be entirely broken just yet, more so I consider them moderately weakened.

The second thing I seem you asking from me is this:

Finally, what I'd really like to know is.  Why do you keep harping on how I felt the need to discredit you by discrediting Smodge when a full half of that initial post had nothing to do with his post, and was on you and your positions?  Why is it that you claim that I'm the one who felt that post was overly important when you are the one who only answered questions based upon that part of my post and left the others to wither?

I think this is more in reference to your very last paragraph, your second to last paragraph mostly asked me if still saw your first post to be scummy in nature.  I was probably being too vague but I figured by reaffirming my suspicion of you both that by extension it would show that I still believed that post of yours had a bit of a scum vibe to it.

As for your last paragraph, I don't have a good excuse for not answering other then I saw it more as a rhetoric stance on how you saw my own views.  My personal stance on it though is that my initial accusation on you is not so much stifling conversation so much as accentuating the only interesting thing going on, and by those means potentially drawing away interest to look for stuff elsewhere.  Stifling would be more akin to you saying lets not focus on the two trains.  Reflecting upon it, what I initially accused you of was a ridiculously bad case.  It just doesn't help that I was not and still am not particularly fond of some of your reactions, which is why I have my current stance.

Like I said before, I'll be much more inclined to change my stances after seeing how the lynch/kill goes.

Ninja

@Carth
I can see how you view me as vague on other cases, Tonfa seems scummy to me yes, but like I said, even if I'm not sold on my initial cases anymore, there were some things that you and Excal said in your arguments that still have my senses tingling.  Also as you saw with my switch from you back to Excal, Tonfa and Bardiche were both quick to jump on me, and before I did that switch I was under the impression that changing my case from either of you to someone else would garner a "Glen gave up...SCUMTELL!!" reaction from others.

So as I've said previously, I'll be much happier to begin showing solider opinions on others after I get to see the results of the Lynch/Murder(If I even get to see it).

[Ranmilia]

Get involved?  Hurm.  Think not.  Too many walls of text.  Day 1?  Getting embroiled in them - not necessarily scummy, but definitely stupid.  Scum more likely found among those pressing people to produce walls of text while hanging back from taking non-obvious stances.  Town quality low enough in this game that lynching scum today very unlikely.  Will try, though. 

Carthrat still fitting suspect profile well.  Keeping vote there.  Excal also suspicious - very confident, maybe too much.  Bard also playing reactionary game.   Not liking these three. 

Everyone else  - especially Glen and Smodge - not reading all of that.  Certain to be chaff, nothing to gain whether town or scum.

[Laggy]

Mod note: Delta has been replaced by Kilga as a player. Delta's vote/votes on him have been removed from the votecount.

[Kilgamayan]

holy fuck how do you play this again

[Kilgamayan]

(thats morse code for "I'm catching up" btw)

[Magetastic]

Uhm... thank you for missing my comments on Tonfa completely, Smodge. And Xanth, I'm fairly certain I brought up at least one fresh piece of evidence on Tonfa.

As for the 'coasting' argument: I spend a lot of time outside, so I only get roughly three chances to hop online a day. Aside from that, before now, I haven't really felt a need to comment on too much, as everyone else seems to cover things rather well themselves. Why re-iterate what's already there?

Though if you really want me to voice my views, fine. Just... the evidence is in what other people have said. And I'd rather save time. So this is gonna be very short, very point-form.

Rat : Interesting playstyle. Null read

Glen : Leans a little scummy, though willing to chalk it up to mistakes and misleading himself

Bard : Leans slightly town. Would be nice to hear some more from him about something new, though.

Alex : Needs to talk more.

Tonfa : Scum scum scum scum scum. Hasn't made me think anything otherwise.

Excal : Leans scum. Seems a little sloppier than he should be.

Soppy : Null read.

Smodge : Null read. Seems like he needs to take another look at the topic.

Tom : Null read, though I'm gonna be taking another look at what he has to say when I wake up in the morning.

Delta : Was just modninja'd.

Yoshi : He seems the towniest so far to me, honestly.

Xanth : See Tom

Alice: Null read. Talk more, please.

Kiro: See Alice.

Kilga: Welcome to the game.

[Hunter Sopko]

As for Sopko, well, from what I can tell, your big concern with me is that a) I didn't join your case on Kiro, and b) that I very quickly abandoned my position on Yoshi for one on Mage.

a) I already covered, it's point B.  I don't jump on the first guy to promote controversy unless my jumping on him is what starts the controversy.  May be an odd code to hold, but I really don't want to discourage sticking one's neck out to start Day 1.

As for b), that's simple.  Yoshi was a joke vote, Mage wasn't.  And by the time he inserted his foot into his mouth, discussion was alive and well, even without Yoshi's train thanks to Glen and Mage.  So, I switched.  Sure I had just made a post stating I was going to stay on Yoshi, but when circumstances change, the votes need to be able to change with them.

Except thats not what I said at all. I don't care that you didn't join the case on Kiro. What I said was that you just sort of handwaved that entire post afterwards. I said that I was surprised that you didn't criticize my case against Kiro. The whole post reeked of "Hey, this is just a fluff post where I don't really say anything. I have some pom poms for cheerleading though!"I also said nothing of the sort of referencing your vote switching. Either I wasn't being clear enough or you're really feeling guilty about something and trying to cover it up.

Glen's last few posts have really screamed town to me. He really doesn't seem to let defending himself get in the way of his scumhunting. So if I do end up joining a train, it looks like it would be Tonfa's at this point... but as far as that I have to admit that I agree with whats been said as far as him playing inconsistantly and he hasn't really done much to support his claim of being town... so I have nothing to add.

Xanth's not rubbing off on me well. he's playing things fairly light and not venturing too far, if at all, out of his comfort zone of talking about Tonfa and Glen.

Darnit Tom, I wanted to be the one to point out that "hypocratic" quote! Grr.

[Excal]

Alex, I do disagree a bit.  I think there's definately something to be gained from reading Glen's stuff at least.  At least, enough to get enough of a town vibe to want him to stay past Day 1.  However, I do find myself in agreement with the rest of what you have to say.  As such, let's break the tie.

##Unvote: Mage, ##Vote: Tonfa

Rat, actually, there is something I want to ask you since you're around.  Why exactly were you so harsh on the new guy when you started.  I mean, sure, his argument was bad, but the way you commented was overly harsh.  Were you trying to elicit an emotional reaction?

Edit Re: Soppy.  Oh, you were just calling me on making a fluff post early on?  Yeah, mea culpa.