Author Topic: [Game Over] Worms Armageddon Mafia  (Read 60354 times)

Carthrat

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #100 on: August 21, 2009, 05:10:07 AM »
I'd say to Glen that I think it's pretty bad that you're thinking in terms of 'what will people think of me' more than 'who is scum'.  It's cool that he's finally admitting some of his early stuff was bad, but I'm not seeing the current Excal case (from any angle). I'm also wondering about Sopko and actually others who seem to be letting people 'scream town' at them today. To say Glen isn't letting his defences get in the way of his scumhunting seems pretty crazy when he's omgus'd it up all day and repeatedly drops "I'm sure if you/I did x it would result in suspicion". I can see the poor town argument here (and the one for Mage, and smodge, and ugh) but that's a weird angle to take on it.

Excal: I don't have any particular reason beyond writing down what springs to mind, and presenting stuff strongly is a Good Thing in my book.

Alex: Don't see how your scum-criteria is working. Looks very much like you're trying to shut down aggressive hunting. I can understand the wall of text hate but that's totally different to probing questions and comments.
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Magetastic

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2009, 05:19:08 AM »
Tom, Xanth. You both say I stole your arguments. (Which is true, in a way, as a big chunk of my case on Tonfa was originally what you two had mentioned) But, not only does this mean one of you is bold-faced lying/ignoring the other's existence/ignoring what's being said, which leads down dark, dark roads, but you're also both wrong. Tonfa also seemed to stifle discussion in his posts before my accusation, and I brought that to light.

However, biggest issue I have:
Quote
For anyone saying that I advocate lynching town(Yoshi), I would like to direct you to three simple bullet points

- I said I had no suspects in particular
- No lynching D1 is terrible
- All things equal, I would rather take out a player that muddies up discussion

That? That is not a townie thing to say. Saying "Lynching scum is great, but lynching town is just as great!" earns you huge scum points, and I'm VERY surprised nobody else has quoted this yet.

So, yeah. Other cases may exist, and, hell, from the sounds of it, they do and are just blooming, but we gotta take care of scum one day at a time. And today, is Tonfa's day.

Though, we should definitely keep discussion up for when D2 happens. Who do you people think are the second scummiest, and why? (Even if it's just repeating others, it's still insightful, given that it shows where people stand)
I say, from what I've seen, it's gonna be Alex. Though, I'll admit this is a very weak suspicion. All I've really got is that his aversion to immersing himself even a little into D1 strikes me as odd, and counteracts productivity.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
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Yoshiken

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2009, 05:28:13 AM »
Mage, the reason no lynching is terrible is because that just leads to a tiebreak and we don't learn as much as we do if someone actually gets lynched through normal means. (Generally speaking, at least.)

Thoughts to come shortly, although... can we try to keep the Walls of Text down? Those were painful to read, especially having just woken up.

Magetastic

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2009, 05:34:40 AM »
That's 'not lynching.' So, unless Tonfa forgot a 't' there, then he means that scum or town, whatever's flipped, isn't terrible.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
* +superaway shakes head.

Excal

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2009, 05:41:04 AM »
Actually, Tonfa has the right of it here.  It is better, by far, to lynch town on Day 1 than to lynch nobody.  If we lynch nobody, then the only flip we will get is the flip scum want us to get, whereas if we lynch, then we not only get a lynch that town wants, but we can also look at who supported it and how, and use that to figure out who is scum.

So, yeah.  Angling for no lynch over mislynch is the scummier position.

Magetastic

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #105 on: August 21, 2009, 05:59:07 AM »
Alright. I've re-read it a few times, and I'm willing to chock it up as me perceiving it differently from everyone else.

I'm off to bed now, so I'll be back in the morning. Hopefully I get a chance to chime in before a decision is made. G'night, folks.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
* +superaway shakes head.

Laggy

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #106 on: August 21, 2009, 06:06:57 AM »
Votecount

Rat (1): Tonfa, Smodge, Glen, Alex
Glen (4): Bard, Rat, Tonfa, Yoshi, Alice, Bard, Tonfa
Bard (0): Glen, Yoshi
Alex (0): Delta
Tonfa (5): Xanth, Bard, Mage, Kiro, Yoshi, Excal
Excal (2): Mage, Glen, Soppy, Glen
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (0): Mage
Mage (1): Tom, Excal, Tonfa
Delta (0):
Kilga (0):
Yoshi (1): Xanth, Excal, Kiro, Smodge
Xanth (0):
Alice (0): Smodge, Alex
Kiro (0): Soppy, Rat, Mage

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in 12 hours.
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Kilgamayan

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #107 on: August 21, 2009, 06:11:01 AM »
wordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordswords AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Okay.

##Vote: SirAlex

Sticking that back where it belongs after Laggy so rudely removed it.

Two recent things that stuck out and bother me:

Yoshi : He seems the towniest so far to me, honestly.

Why? Smodge put forth what looked like a good argument for him being scum to me.

{Glen} really doesn't seem to let defending himself get in the way of his scumhunting.

Are you even reading his posts? He's had at least two or three in a row where's he expressed worry about garnering suspicion for having a dynamic opinion.

/r/ vote count so I know exactly where Glen and Tonfa stand. I'd be happy with a Glen lynch between his "evolving" cases on Rat and Excal and his constant worry about what people will think of him when he forms opinions. The Tonfa train bothers me. His approach to Glen and Mage wasn't optimal but I could see a semblance of thought process behind it. It sure wasn't four-votes-out-of-fucking-nowhere bad. I doubt I'll join it.

EDIT: And there it is. Happy to keep my vote on Alex in the hopes that people will join me, but sleep will cease before deadline shows up, and I'll be glad to switch to Glen if Alex remains irrelevant.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Kilgamayan

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #108 on: August 21, 2009, 06:49:04 AM »
I am going to be the 573rd view of this topic and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Yoshiken

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #109 on: August 21, 2009, 07:11:47 AM »
Alright. First thing to clarify, Smodge's case on me, as it's been brought up... Firstly, I said in the post where I said Tonfa was on par with Glen that I wasn't going to reiterate the entire case that had been previously presented. I didn't say that I didn't agree with those points - all of the points I'd seen raised against Tonfa were things I found suspicious as well. As for the argument against Glen, the case on Glen mostly falls down to newbie either way, as opposed to Tonfa, who had a lot of Mafia-like flaws in his posts.
Anyways.
Glen: For starters, take some time to re-read the whole topic. It looks like you've just changed your vote because of one or two specific posts. If I'm wrong on this, sure, ignore me, but if not, I'd re-read a good section of the topic just to get an overall idea as opposed to a kneejerk reaction. Otherwise, your recent posts have had quite a good Town read to them, so.. less suspicious than you were, at least. That's still not saying too much.
Tonfa's post [link] shortly after my last main one definitely reads well, though. Doesn't clear the suspicion much, but at least now I can see the logic behind the previous posts.
Mage has leapt right up in my suspicions. This post really doesn't sit well with me at all, and his play hasn't exactly been stellar outside of that. Most of it has struck as newbie-Town, but it reads just as well, if not better, as newbie-Mafia. Don't like this automatic assumption that everyone agrees Tonfa is top priority in the recent post, even if I agree that he probably is. ["And today, is Tonfa's day." "Who do you people think are the second scummiest.."]
Smodge, I like your logic. It makes sense, really. (Obviously, I don't agree with the case, but that's not the point.) But you don't have to comment on -everything-. Walls of Text are baaaad. Otherwise, +1 Towniness.
Alex: "Scum more likely found among those pressing people to produce walls of text while hanging back from taking non-obvious stances."  Doesn't half of that fit you? Seems there aren't exactly any here who are doing both, and you're definitely hanging back a lot. At least skim-read posts, if nothing else. Not wanting to help Town can only lead to one conclusion.
Kilga: Welcome! I find it odd that you make a post saying there are cases against me & Glen, then say you're happy with your vote on Alex. That said, I can see the obvious logic behind voting Alex, because...

With all that said, my current view is Alex > Mage > Glen/Tonfa. I -really- do not like that Alex is not helping contribute much at all.

##Unvote: Tonfa.
##Vote: Sir Alex.


Ugh. Too many players -and- Walls of Text together are... gah.

Kilgamayan

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #110 on: August 21, 2009, 07:27:24 AM »
I am happy with my vote on Alex because I feel he is most worth my vote at this time. This does not mean I can't see cases on other people.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Yoshiken

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #111 on: August 21, 2009, 08:05:32 AM »
Yeah, but you didn't actually present a case -on Alex-. It's good to present other cases, sure, as long as you justify the one you actually vote for.

Kiro

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #112 on: August 21, 2009, 08:29:06 AM »
Impression I'm getting of Glen after he switched from Rat back to Excal again is nub Town. He seems to be under the impression that anyone spending the time to pick apart his arguments HAS to be Scum. He's stubbornly clinging to that and even is worrying that "people  are waiting for me to back down from this argument (#81)" so he stays on it. He's also saying a large proportion of people who haven't had much content so far look pro-Town to him. He's not even judging people by the proper criteria. It's all pretty bad as a whole, but at the moment, it's so bad that I just don't feel he'd flip Scum.

---

Toufa: What does Yoshi have to do with anything in your #80? You were voting Mage. And all things usually are not equal so that you usually wouldn't have to worry about taking out a bad player. If they look equal to you, ask them questions so that they aren't anymore.

On a re-read...honestly, while I got an overenthusiastic town newbie vibe from Glen's post after my vote on him, he then started riding the "This is smodge's case I'm not responsible" car hard, and then...switches off it when this is brought to attention, and tries to present the one who challenged the case in the first place as scum for...challenging the case. What? No. You're not deflecting attention, or, should I say, stifling discussion as you'd put it, that way. Suspicions of scum reaffirmed in much higher force.

If you call him newbie Townie in your first sentence, how does the rest of that paragraph make the jump from newbie Town to likely Scum? He could still be newbie Town while he argues against those challenging his case. You just make a singular statement that doesn't seem to say much about why specifically Glen is scummy again in your eyes as you vote him again.

Vote staying on Toufa who still has some inconsistencies in my eyes. Going to bed; I'll be around for deadline in the morning.

Ranmilia

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #113 on: August 21, 2009, 08:35:20 AM »
Glen is rather obviously town from the way he's been flailing and throwing walls of text and fingers in every direction.  Bad town, but town.  
Tonfa also reads town to me, his attitude presents a marked contrast to those of the other people on his case.  And the people on him making a difference are not people I'm inclined to trust.  I'm not willing to vote for either of them today, so...

##Unvote: Rat
##Vote: Excal


Switching to the highest up preferred case.  Excal's last two posts specifically set off attitude alarms for me.  Seriously, have I missed something here that's got people going "Tonfa:  scum scum scum" and "I'mma vote Tonfa, by the way Tonfa's totally right about lynching someone today"? 

Ninja - "some inconsistencies" is hardly better!

Excal

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #114 on: August 21, 2009, 09:39:47 AM »
Alex, the reason my vote is on Tonfa is because I don't actually have a strong suspicion of scum, and I feel Glen is liklier to be town than Tonfa is.  Since they were, at the point I made my vote, tied at four votes each, I voted for the one I felt least likely to be town.

Secondly, is there anything particular about my posts you'd like to point out?  Or have you finally discovered Ciato's mystical scum hunting instincts?

Xanth

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« Reply #115 on: August 21, 2009, 01:11:30 PM »
Xanth's not rubbing off on me well. he's playing things fairly light and not venturing too far, if at all, out of his comfort zone of talking about Tonfa and Glen.

lolwut. Accuse me of not posting much if you want, but I think I've covered plenty ground. The Tonfa/Glen revisit for my previous point was top priority for the time, given that they were the biggest two at the time and I very much saw (and still see) one but not the other. It makes me boggle just a little bit when the core of your case on Excal is something picked up from my first proper post.


Smodge, I like your logic. It makes sense, really. (Obviously, I don't agree with the case, but that's not the point.)

Award for worst self-defence goes to Yoshi. Do I even need to explain this one? Okay, it's not as bad as the quote looks because he defends a key point at the start of the quoted post, but still.

I'm for and against parts of Smodge's argument. Ignoring the first point, which reads [Yoshi] as null to me rather than a scum set up, I kinda-sorta feel for the reporter/coasting angle, but don't think it's quite all that bad, and the actual method of jumping to Tonfa does look bad, happening as it did at the height of the Tonfa training just prior to Glen picking up flak again, and I'm not even sure it was for the right reason. The clarification of the switch is also what I called retconning for Tonfa. Even with the explanation I don't see it that way, and I'm not sure if you're also trying to retcon just how far back your suspicion of Tonfa went. Just to check, was this:

I didn't say that I didn't agree with those points - all of the points I'd seen raised against Tonfa were things I found suspicious as well.

meant to imply that you held him suspicious before or as of this post?


I'm incredibly wary of the lurkerAlex case, as I've seen him play too many strange/different openings to second guess it. As I'm relatively happy with the little content that he has posted, and there are other notable other avenues to explore, this is definitely something I'd rather see addressed in day two rather than now. So yeah, this is me giving Alex something short of carte blanche for the rest of the day if you want to disagree with it. (no, this obviously wouldn't apply if I was getting worse vibes from him than the lurker angle)


Kiro reads slightly better now, although I'm struggling to find recent material that isn't just an echo. It's not non-existent, but it's mostly self-defence.

Mage and Glen are still null-ish. As wary as I was/am about the lynch pushes against them, I am likewise wary of multiple people putting actively town labels on at least the latter. As an aside, I was wrong when I was comparing Glen and Tonfa and saying that Glen had at least been consistent in some way, as I'd meant that his push on a Excal/Rat partnership had been consistent, when he has actually ducked away from that at points along the way.

I need to go off and work on other stuff now, but I'll keep an eye on the thread in case my attention is needed. I will also try to be completely free from as early possible, probably about 3:45pm, 75 minutes from the deadline. Having said that, Tonfa's the only one I actually feel comfortable on, so unless there's a huge change in the lie of the votes by then I doubt I'll actually be changing it. As Sopko's presence has increased somewhat my new secondary tier is Yoshi and Kiro, but there's no momentum towards either as things stand.

Smashy

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #116 on: August 21, 2009, 01:24:20 PM »


Laggy: Out with th... *rope away* Out with the old...





In with the n...



Votecount

Rat (0): Tonfa, Smodge, Glen, Alex
Glen (4): Bard, Rat, Tonfa, Yoshi, Alice, Bard, Tonfa
Bard (0): Glen, Yoshi
Alex (2): Delta, Kilga, Yoshi
Tonfa (4): Xanth, Bard, Mage, Kiro, Yoshi, Excal
Excal (3): Mage, Glen, Soppy, Glen, Alex
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (0): Mage
Mage (1): Tom, Excal, Tonfa
Delta (0):
Kilga (0):
Yoshi (1): Xanth, Excal, Kiro, Smodge
Xanth (0):
Alice (0): Smodge, Alex
Kiro (0): Soppy, Rat, Mage

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in a bit under 5 hours.

Smodge13

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #117 on: August 21, 2009, 01:30:29 PM »
Ok approaching deadline on day 1 and theres 4 trains i can see forming
i'll try to be more concise

Glen - Feels like new townie to me have a look at my wall, since then this has become alot firmer in my mind as glen has acted similarly to how i did early days.

Tonfa - I really can't see the case on this one

Alex - definately needs to talk more, also dislike the fact he won't read some of the things said, what really gets me is his comments about excal being overconfident.

Overall Alex as scum i can see as being a possibility he just seems a bit apathetic about this game already.

Finally Excal Train
Excal plays a running commentary here
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72049#msg72049
However claims it is Soppy vs Kiro neglecting the fact that rat seems to imply suspicion on Kiro 1 post before
we then have
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72081#msg72081
Him going after Mage, Admittedly mage did something wrong however it is so glaringly obvious a newb townie mistake i find it surprising that excal goes after him so hard, it could just be an attempt at teaching mage a lesson buut it might nto have been either.
Excal then spends most the day shutting down Glens Case
This really gets me
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72242#msg72242
A simple "i agree" and breaking the tie with lynching intent.

So overall excal has spent plenty of time breaking down cases but not much presenting new ones.
His votes are used on people like mage or the serious one on Tonfa (which i myself have said i don't understand the case)
Overall to me there seems to be much more scummy people than Tonfa/Glen/Mage that Excal seems to be attacking so heavily.

##Unvote: Yoshi
##Vote: Excal

This brings it up to a 3 way tie, so i ask who will be around for the hammer to break it (i will but i'd rather not move my vote to one of the others as i dislike their cases )
Excal seems the worst out of the trains to me.
Rat still looks bad as does yoshi but excal is also up there now (along with Alex in 4th)


Yoshiken

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #118 on: August 21, 2009, 01:49:29 PM »
Xanth, when I returned to make that post, I read through the new posts since my previous one, and that was when I became suspicious of Tonfa. That was the first post I made where I was suspicious of him, though.
And you're happy with Alex's post content? Even the "I'm not reading the topic, have some unexplained opinions and meta"? I can understand disliking WoTs, but to not read them at all?

Ninja'Smodge: ...I take back what I said previously. I don't like your style at all. I feel I have to ask, have you actually looked at all of the players, or do you just focus on a few?
I'll most probably be around for hammer today. And.. my vote isn't set on Alex. I'll take a re-read when I'm a little more awake and focus on the vote-leaders, see if it changes things.

Smodge13

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #119 on: August 21, 2009, 01:59:37 PM »
Ninja'Smodge: ...I take back what I said previously. I don't like your style at all. I feel I have to ask, have you actually looked at all of the players, or do you just focus on a few?
I'll most probably be around for hammer today. And.. my vote isn't set on Alex. I'll take a re-read when I'm a little more awake and focus on the vote-leaders, see if it changes things.

I do look at other players however as we're down to the last 5 hours attempting to push for the lynch of those who have 1 or no votes on them is throwing away a vote of importance, this late in the day the chaos of everyone switching last minute is just as dangerous as it can result in accidental ties and mislynches.

As a result although i think Rat as the scummiest, i dislike the arguments on Glen and Tonfa and so choose to push someone i feel is more scummy than those 2 lest my vote be wasted and 1 of the trains i dislike is the successful one that is pushed through.

Hope this makes sense, let me know if i need to reiterate it.
Essentially instead of pushing to lynch someone who has no chance of being lynched today, i will push for what i feel is the scummiest of the trains as i feel that train is more likely scum than the others.



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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #120 on: August 21, 2009, 02:30:33 PM »
Day 1 is a busy day this game, it seems!

As far as the case on Glen Veil goes, I am growing less convinced he's scum. While his play is definitely Not Gud, it reeks more of bad town play than scum play. The same, however, cannot be said for Alex, whose participation I find lacking for all that I regularly see Alex play.

I mean, what? All of three serious posts in the day, one hitting on Carthrat, one an admission of not being interested in supporting the Day 1 efforts and the last one jumping on an Excal train for... yeah, I'm not sure what. I also don't like his speculation about what scum would or would not do, since WIFOMs are endless by default, and that's just leading into it.

Jumping on a train based on a pointless nitpick, textbook lurking and just generally being unsupportive and letting Day 1 end without much of his own participation. This will lend us nothing to go by on Day 2 regarding his alignment, and I am very wary of the approach he is taking. This takes precedence over everything else for me.

##UNVOTE: Glen Veil
##VOTE: SirAlex

EvilTom

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #121 on: August 21, 2009, 03:24:31 PM »
My Mage vote is doing nothing unfortunately, at this late stage.

##Unvote Mage

While none of the three lynch candidates are safe from my suspicion (I'm heavily suspicious of all of them), the evidence is weightiest against Glen.

##Vote Glen.

After a full re-read of the whole thread, I've decided he gets my vote.

I believe that puts him back on 4, and the current leader with Tonfa. Alex and Excal are equally close behind. Going after anyone else at this stage is a waste of time.
The good news is that there's a lot of information to carry across to day 2. I'm going to bed now, but I'm sure there will be many insights come day 2.
This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #122 on: August 21, 2009, 03:41:38 PM »
I'm beginning to be wary of people that seem to think it's more important to equalize the votes rather than pursue a lynch.

Tom, WHY does Glen get your vote, other than a re-read of the topic which won't help us in the long run?

Bard, why do you think a vote on Alex NOW is appropriate? While I can see the thought behind your argument, the time for pressure voting has passed. Are you just trying to make sure your suspicions of Alex are committed in stone, or are you just trying to gum up the works? Because at this point, your words are just as effective in recording things for tomorrow as votes.

Kilgamayan

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #123 on: August 21, 2009, 03:49:34 PM »
Yeah, but you didn't actually present a case -on Alex-. It's good to present other cases, sure, as long as you justify the one you actually vote for.

Alex wasn't kind enough to do Rat (and now Excal) the favor of presenting a case, so I don't see why he deserves the favor in return.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Smodge13

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Re: [Day 1] Worms Armageddon Mafia
« Reply #124 on: August 21, 2009, 03:51:59 PM »
I'm beginning to be wary of people that seem to think it's more important to equalize the votes rather than pursue a lynch.

I'm disliking it myself, hell i dislike the fact that my vote equalized them, its strange that tom puts that vote then cuts and runs, i can understand a person equalizing the votes if they can pull it out last minute and push a majority but doing ti then going to bed just risks the day ending on a tie

Also for the record i am willing to switch my vote from Excal to Alex if it will break a tie (which it won't at the moment), i really want to avoid both the Tonfa and Glen train because of my opinions on them