[Game Over] Worms Armageddon Mafia

[Magetastic]

Huh. I completely missed two posts (Glen then Kilga). And, really, Glen's last post is setting off some alarm bells for me too. He's playing too much of an aggressive defensive game, even if he is just newb-town. Striking out at Tonfa just to save his own skin? That sits rather horribly with me. Almost willing to switch over to Glen. Will have to see what else comes up.

[Kilgamayan]

Xanth: That's still a problem. Finding scum is only half the game, the other half is communicating it. Alex being vague in his accusations does not help anyone and only makes him look bad.

Time is short, though, so:

##Unvote: SirAlex
##Vote: Excal

Will switch to Glen at the last second if Excal doesn't get enough votes to overtake Tonfa.

[Kilgamayan]

Mage: "Voting not-me over me" is a null tell. Glen voting to save himself can't be held against him, because anyone will do that regardless of their alignment.

[Alice]

DISlike the way that Yoshi hopped onto the Alex train immediately after it was formed by Kilga. What?

Glen is rather obviously town from the way he's been flailing and throwing walls of text and fingers in every direction.

What? Every time I have seen this behaviour, it's pointed to noob scum. Noob scum when stuck with impending lynch tend to flail around horribly in every direction. Especially combined with spending entirely too much time trying to defend themselves.

Anyway, I don't necessarily disagree with the Tonfa train 100%, but I'm still not seeing what made him so scummy. There was a noted inconsistency in his posting earlier, but it seems to have been explained away and most notably there are better targets today. I would PREFER to lynch Glen, he is still a glaring Scum as far as I am concerned, but if that is not a possiblity,

##Unvote
##Vote: Excal

Starting to see more of the reasoning behind his train, most likely the switch from Mage to Tonfa was horribly awkward and really seemed more like trying to save oneself than actually find scum.

Can still switch over to Glen, would much rather lynch Glen, so people who are claiming to wish to vote Glen, vote Glen plzkthx! Deadline is coming up very soon!

[Smodge13]

Um doesnt that make Tonfa/Excal a Tie?

[Laggy]

Votecount

Rat (0): Tonfa, Smodge, Glen, Alex
Glen (3): Bard, Rat, Tonfa, Yoshi, Alice, Bard, Tonfa, Tom
Bard (0): Glen, Yoshi
Alex (2): Delta, Kilga, Yoshi, Bard
Tonfa (5): Xanth, Bard, Mage, Kiro, Yoshi, Excal, Glen
Excal (5): Mage, Glen, Soppy, Glen, Alex, Smodge, Kilga, Alice
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (0): Mage
Mage (0): Tom, Excal, Tonfa
Delta (0):
Kilga (0):
Yoshi (0): Xanth, Excal, Kiro, Smodge
Xanth (0):
Alice (0): Smodge, Alex
Kiro (0): Soppy, Rat, Mage

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

It is 3 minutes to deadline.

[Magetastic]

Mm. Guess Glen and Alex are officially out of the running here. And if it's between Excal and Tonfa, Tonfa's still higher on my scumdar.

Vote rests where it is.

[Tonfa]

If that's how the votes are falling...

Not me, thus unguaranteed alignment.

##Unvote
##Vote: Excal

[Smodge13]

Intense.....

[Laggy]

It is deadline, stop posting.

[Laggy]

It was a terse ending to a long day. The two Worms faced off against each other, both at death's door, both knowing that it would take only but a mere prod to tip the scales of balance and send the other careening to his death.

Tonfa prodded first.



Excal, Homing Pigeon and Vanilla Townie, flew off to the cuckoo nest and detonated! (LYNCHED)

Day 1 Final Votecount

Rat (0): Tonfa, Smodge, Glen, Alex
Glen (2): Bard, Rat, Tonfa, Yoshi, Alice, Bard, Tonfa, Tom
Bard (0): Glen, Yoshi
Alex (2): Delta, Kilga, Yoshi, Bard
Tonfa (5): Xanth, Bard, Mage, Kiro, Yoshi, Excal, Glen
Excal (6): Mage, Glen, Soppy, Glen, Alex, Smodge, Kilga, Alice, Tonfa
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (0): Mage
Mage (0): Tom, Excal, Tonfa
Delta (0):
Kilga (0):
Yoshi (0): Xanth, Excal, Kiro, Smodge
Xanth (0):
Alice (0): Smodge, Alex
Kiro (0): Soppy, Rat, Mage

With 15 alive, it took 8 to lynch. (Except it didn't)

Send in Night 1 actions.

[Laggy]

Dawn comes, and the Worms warily look at each other, wondering which one of their kind did not make it through the night.



For a moment, all looked well. But then someone noticed the shallow grave near the water...




Xanth, Carpet Bomb and Vanilla Townie, decorated the scorched earth with his remains! (NIGHTKILLED)


It is now Day 2. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 ends in 48 hours on Monday, Aug 24th, 9:30am PST.

[Yoshiken]

Okay. I'm gonna post what I had yesterday before I was 10x Ninja'd, with the last one being the deadline. I've cut out votes, seeing as we're not limited to just the two choices we had previously.

Looks like it's out of Tonfa/Glen for today, and Glen's last post pushed him just ahead of Tonfa. I really can't understand the logic behind a Town player just sitting back and letting themselves go to the hammer, which is what the martyr card that Tonfa mentioned looks like.

Alice: Uhm. I stated suspicion of Alex in my first post after his "I don't need to read the thread!" post. At the time I voted him, there wasn't really a train to join, either.

So yeah. Current suspicion is Alex > Glen > Tonfa. And until we get some actual contribution -with reasoning-, this vote is gonna stay where it is, methinks.
##Vote: Sir Alex.

[Kilgamayan]

I expect more out of Alex now that he's no longer in the Day One Doldrums™.

##Vote: Yoshi

Early reporter style (as Smodge pointed out). His at-the-time timely jump onto the Tonfa train. I maintain that the Tonfa train stunk of scum. Glen coaching+waffling, Tonfa non-commitment, Mage non-commitment (you say he can read both as newbTown and newbScum - what made you pick newbScum?), voting Alex for what I believe were the wrong reasons. Alex's problem wasn't so much that he wasn't contributing that he wasn't clearly explaining why his votes were where they were. He produced opinions in his next post and you didn't move your vote. Yoshi also claimed he would be around to deadline - where were you when it became obvious the Alex train wasn't going anywhere? And now you're back on Alex pre-emptively, which is pretty hasty, and not bothering to consider or even mention the two main trains and the two flips we have to work with. I plan on waiting for a Day 2 post from him before deciding what I think of him, as he is notorious for falling asleep on Day 1.

Still want Soppy to address this. It's a minor concern but it's still a concern.

[Yoshiken]

On Glen: Coaching is a problem? I'd rather see him re-read the topic and make a helpful contribution than play badly.
On Tonfa: That was "He's still suspicious, but not as much." I figured I didn't need to spell everything out for it to be understood, though.
On Mage: I said -most- struck as newbie-Town. His previous post read mostly as newbie-Scum instead, which is why I said he leapt up in my suspicion then specifically.
On Alex: So, him not reading the topic = him not helping Town = bad reasoning? Uhh. Sorry, but not Town means one thing and one thing only.
Now, if you'd kindly read my post just before yours... 10x ninja before deadline as I was posting, I was about to flip my vote over.
And I doubt my current vote on Alex is going to be problematic with 7 to lynch, so I'd rather have my vote in place now than be accused of jumping onto a train.

[Magetastic]

##Vote Tonfa

Still believe he's scummiest. Though I would rather like to hear more from Alex. Lurking to the point of unreadability isn't helpful to town.

[EvilTom]

@Alice

Starting to see more of the reasoning behind his train, most likely the switch from Mage to Tonfa was horribly awkward and really seemed more like trying to save oneself than actually find scum.

- Do you find it scummy that he wanted to save himself?

Actually. It's 5.30am and I need sleep, so yeah. I'll be back in a good while after I've slept. Damn anime conventions.

[Kiro]

First off, I missed deadline due to internet outage at work. Came in right after the flip was announced.

I really don't see how that Excal train possibly got going. That looks like the "Too Townie to be Townie" argument and Excal had every right to pick apart Glen's cases to check for consistency. The main contending point seems to be that he went for Tonfa after all that time spent working on Glen, but that alone shouldn't have brought him all the way to being the lynch imo.

---

Soppy voted Excal pretty early in the Day because he thought Town Excal would have gone and criticized his jump onto me. But Excal actually mentioned something about Soppy already.

Not to mention, unlike most people jumping on the guy starting the discussion, Soppy's case holds up remarkably well.  So, I can't even jump on him for that.

Why are you making an argument that a person whose alignment you don't know should be suspicious of something you said? He thought it wasn't, simple as that. That looks like one of your main points for voting Excal which is just dumb; it's a meta point. You also were not even bothering to mention or expand on any of the points Alex, Smodge or whomever made in your #128 as they all voted Excal. So I can't say that those were your points as well. Overall, you took a huge bystander role in Day 1 and cheered other wagons along while letting your own arguably weak case sit as is.

---

To reiterate on Tonfa, he first voted Glen for being the scummiest, then after addressing Tom's concern in #56, switches to Mage for being a potential liability. That's just bad priorities. You then say in #66:

I mean what I say, I don't have a solid opinion of anyone being likely scum.

Which is a contradiction to your vote on Glen in #50. The end of the Day chaos however is more consistent looking with you staying on Glen until the head-to-head with Excal which I can't hold against you. Your early attitude is still a mark against you imo.

---

Kilga: Regarding Tonfa: Semblance of thought doesn't mean it's Townie. And we should note that both Excal and Xanth had their end of Day 1 votes on Tonfa. Your willing to say the wagon stinks of Scum when we don't even know whether Tonfa is Scum or not is just narrow-minded, especially when there is a shown mislynch with 6 targets to consider on it. However, since you're voting Yoshi rather than any of the final people on the wagon, can you explain a little more your thoughts of the people on Tonfa's wagon?

---

Alice is at least consistent regarding Glen, but the comparison between Tonfa and Excal is not as much. Mainly:

Anyway, I don't necessarily disagree with the Tonfa train 100%, but I'm still not seeing what made him so scummy. There was a noted inconsistency in his posting earlier, but it seems to have been explained away and most notably there are better targets today.

Please show me where his inconsistency got explained away. What I saw in him is posted above. I haven't caught anything like that at the end of any of his Day 1 posts. Also, if you previewed your post before posting, you would have noticed that Kilga indicated he would switch to Glen if it could overtake Tonfa. The fact that neither of you bothered to coordinate that and get Glen to 5 votes to tie with Tonfa is a little weird when you even made a call out to people to switch to Glen. You should have taken the initiative and switched it up to Glen immediately after. You also said you didn't 100% disagree with the Tonfa lynch so if you could reasonably expect someone like Kilga to refresh the topic, you should have gone for who you thought was the scummiest and not cry too much if Tonfa got lynched. Just doesn't seem to reflect well on you despite that sudden rush.

---CONCLUSION---

Tonfa's problems from Day 1 still carry over. However, in looking at the various reasons for why Excal was voted, I would probably say Soppy has the weakest even though it seemed to be Alex who really got it going. Both are pretty guilty of letting that go through bystander wise for what looks like weak reasoning. Alice and Kilga both worried about the Tonfa lynch to some expect and played the vote shifting game and while I can see Kilga's case on Yoshi in Day 2, it seems to contradict the point about Scum being on Tonfa when Yoshi wasn't by Day end. Alice seems to be worse than Kilga on the end of Day chaos though, saying to get the Glen lynch up, but not doing so. Soppy and Alice are pretty much neck and neck. Gonna put it on Soppy who had more time to contribute for or against the Excal case but never did.

##Vote Soppy

Notice to mod and players: I have a party to prep for today so I don't know when I'll be able to post next. Maybe late late tonight, but it could be delayed to as late as Sunday afternoon (over 24 hours).

[Ranmilia]

First of all I have to agree with what Kilga posted on Yoshi.  It applies to Mage to a lesser extent as well.  If you kids are town again here you're falling for the exact same stuff Laggy and I pulled as scum last game, you're only going for the low hanging fruit, not thinking much, and basically making yourself scum's best friends.  Or you may BE scum, but... I'll give a pass on that for now since it's hard for me to divorce myself from last game.  >_>

Strange times with the waking up and seeing people actually go on the Excal train.  Didn't expect that.  Bit more suspicious of Tonfa, for, well, obvious reasons.  Smodge was certainly not in the right place with the votes, so I went back and reread him, but (somewhat to my surprise) he's coming off quite well.  Know who doesn't, though?

##Vote: Kiro

Jumps on Tonfa very early in the day for calling some people liabilities (game theory disguise vote - good for early day 1 but not really elsewhere), then... sits on him and does pretty much nothing else.  In fact he makes peace with a ton of other people in the post he votes Tonfa, and then fails to address anything later on except "Glen's town and I don't like Tonfa."  Some incoherency there.  I dislike the peacemaking most of all, though - he somewhat attacks Mage, but then tempers it at the end with "Oh Mage is voting Tonfa so it's okay."

There's a whole lot of continuation rolling on the Tonfa train in general, which is bad bad bad news coming from day 1.  Seems like people got their tailfeathers in a ruffle from his eugenics advocacy and then started finding ways to see his later posts as scummy - even to the point of Kiro skipping right over Tonfa talking about evaluating a case and going "I don't understand, you say he's town and scum, OMG!"  This is not the way.  It's fully possible Tonfa, Glen, or both are scum, but the competing trains on them both were so bad I can't get behind either.

Other than that...
holy nuts on a reread here what is UP with Bard

##Unvote: Kiro
##Vote: Bard

Hey guy hows about that thing where he jumps straight from Glen to Tonfa to me, accusing Tonfa of jumping trains willy-nilly (which in fact is what he is doing!) and then accusing me for only having a few content posts (which in fact describes him!)  Opportunistic much?  Each of his posts is "Oh yeah eh my previous case whatever LET'S GO NEW TARGET BLAM!" ... with nothing on anything other than past target/new target.

Ninja'd by Kiro wall (ugh).  Case on Soppy.  I'm on the fence on Soppy, he's been kinda lurkish, but so far I'm chalking that up to the known fact that Soppy, like me, tends to have little to say day 1.  The actual arguments Kiro is bringing on Soppy are silly other than lurkiness, and incoherent to the point of making me annoyingly reconsider his scumminess.   The whole semantics and "Oh my GOD an INCONSISTENCY we need EXPLANATION" formula may fly over on that other board but uh not here.

[Hunter Sopko]

Still want Soppy to address this. It's a minor concern but it's still a concern.

Are we reading the same post? To me, it looks like he's saying "Well, it would've looked bad if I changed my vote, but I did it anyway." Which.. was what I was saying at the time.

However, the events of the flip have made my reconsider my stances.

Bard definitely seems like a scum trying to lay a low profile for Day 1. Low post count, minimal reasoning for his votes, and didn't wind up on the lynch. His vote switching would sort of offset this... if the timing and reasoning were there to back it up, but there isn't. His blatant language in "I want to lynch X" seems more telling now than it was then. It wasn't "I think X is scum." He just wanted them lynched.

I'm looking at those who switched late onto the Excal train from the Glen train. Tonfa and especially Alice. Bard was on this but switched elsewhere and has already been covered. Alice, you reasoning you gave for switching was that you felt that switching to save oneself was scummy. Seeing as how Tonfa did the same, what does that change for you, if anything, on "not seeing why Tonfa was so scummy"?

As far as the Tonfa trains go so far... we know Xanth was town, so it was at least started in earnst, and Excal also ended up on it and was never on the Glen train. Which leaves Glen and Kiro, with Yoshi and Bard (again!) switching off. Bard earlier to switch to Glen and Yoshi for a questionable late train on Alex.

Glen seems less townish than he did before with the flips in mind. Hopping between as many people as he did, it's hard to get a bead on him that way. As none of them really feel reflexive "save myself" votes, as he was on the Excal train early and didn't jump to Tonfa until very late. This is either a result of misguided townie pursuit or just an incredibly odd scum play.

Yoshi's me-tooism shines through in his votes. Even his jokevote on Bard was seemingly in response to someone else's. Yet, in the end he switches to the Alex latetrain seemingly for the hell of it. If Bard wasn't scum jumping on a safe port of call, then Yoshi certainly was. The consistant following onto trains raises my hackles up something fierce. Would like your response to this, Yoshi.

It's a rich tapestry, eh? The coincidences with Bard pile up, so for now I'm going to join Alex with...

##VOTE: Bard

With a side-dish FOS on Yoshi.

[Smashy]

Following up an intense One Of Everything with a less intense...

Votecount

Rat (0):
Glen (0):
Bard (2): Alex, Soppy
Alex (1): Yoshi
Tonfa (1): Mage
Soppy (1): Kiro
Smodge (0):
Tom (0):
Mage (0):
Kilga (0):
Yoshi (1): Kilga
Alice (0):
Kiro (0): Alex

Only 13 worms, only 7 votes needed.

Deadline in a bit over 38 hours.

[EvilTom]

I didn't notice Yoshi using reporter-style particularly much earlier, but on re-read then yeah; I can see the angle. It's a safe way to coast day 1.  Ugh I need sleep.

Award goes to Glen for most bizarre argument ever:

I'm kind of weary about the people that have forgone voting on the obvious trains to try and start new ones, leaving us with this 3 way tie + 1 under heavy pressure.

It's not scummy, just stupid; I'm not sure if that should make me rethink his previous actions as "noob town" rather than scummy, but eh. I don't know what to think when it comes to giving noobs free passes anymore. I might leave that one for metagame thread after this game is over. For now though, time to try and make my brain do things, hard things, like thinking.

Soppy

I'm looking at those who switched late onto the Excal train from the Glen train. Tonfa and especially Alice. Bard was on this but switched elsewhere and has already been covered. Alice, you reasoning you gave for switching was that you felt that switching to save oneself was scummy. Seeing as how Tonfa did the same, what does that change for you, if anything, on "not seeing why Tonfa was so scummy"?

Forgive me if it's obvious but I am sleep deprived - why are you looking at those people? What's the scummy aspect to that jump?

As far as the Tonfa trains go so far... we know Xanth was town, so it was at least started in earnst, and Excal also ended up on it and was never on the Glen train. Which leaves Glen and Kiro, with Yoshi and Bard (again!) switching off. Bard earlier to switch to Glen and Yoshi for a questionable late train on Alex.

Soppy, you gave us the facts, but what do they mean? Is this scumplay? Or just a summary?

[Hunter Sopko]

I didn't notice Yoshi using reporter-style particularly much earlier, but on re-read then yeah; I can see the angle. It's a safe way to coast day 1.  Ugh I need sleep.

Award goes to Glen for most bizarre argument ever:

I'm kind of weary about the people that have forgone voting on the obvious trains to try and start new ones, leaving us with this 3 way tie + 1 under heavy pressure.

It's not scummy, just stupid; I'm not sure if that should make me rethink his previous actions as "noob town" rather than scummy, but eh. I don't know what to think when it comes to giving noobs free passes anymore. I might leave that one for metagame thread after this game is over. For now though, time to try and make my brain do things, hard things, like thinking.

Soppy

I'm looking at those who switched late onto the Excal train from the Glen train. Tonfa and especially Alice. Bard was on this but switched elsewhere and has already been covered. Alice, you reasoning you gave for switching was that you felt that switching to save oneself was scummy. Seeing as how Tonfa did the same, what does that change for you, if anything, on "not seeing why Tonfa was so scummy"?

Forgive me if it's obvious but I am sleep deprived - why are you looking at those people? What's the scummy aspect to that jump?

As far as the Tonfa trains go so far... we know Xanth was town, so it was at least started in earnst, and Excal also ended up on it and was never on the Glen train. Which leaves Glen and Kiro, with Yoshi and Bard (again!) switching off. Bard earlier to switch to Glen and Yoshi for a questionable late train on Alex.

Soppy, you gave us the facts, but what do they mean? Is this scumplay? Or just a summary?

Last part first. You're asking where my arguments are? Well... aren't they in the two paragraphs proceeding that one? I covered Glen and Yoshi individually.

You did remind me of Kiro though, which I meant to cover but missed because I'm really distracted by this damn text window (it keeps shifting up and down while I type, making it hard to keep full track of what I'm doing. Anyone else having this problem?)

As for pressing Alice, I feel it's justified. The argument is kind of a null read for day one, but the timing of the vote is not, so especially considering Alice's level of participation, I would like to hear an explanation and an answer to the question I asked. I think thats more than fair.

Going to read over Kiro's content from Day 1 before I post my part for him.

[Hunter Sopko]

Mrf. I honestly couldn't get a read on Kiro going over things. There's a little bit of tunnel vision going on regarding the trains (with a side case on me) as well as jumping on small things, but I don't get pulled one way or the other as these things are common.

The person that did jump out at me on re-read is Magetastic. Cheerleading, very little content and a slew of list and summary posts. Bad juju. I know we jumped on him that game for this, but it still bears watching over if he just keeps doing it.

[Carthrat]

I'm not terribly happy at the number of people who went 'I'm okay with a Glen lynch but oh no must do something else!' that was around day end. Alice, Kilga, Mage are all pretty guilty of that, and assuming Tonfa switched to Excal out of self-preservation more than anything, a quick look at the count shows that indeed he would've been frontrunning there. How did this become an Excal lynch, precisely?

Kilga leaps out as the most suspicious there. Really now, pressure voting Alex at dayend? Did you really think he was the most lynchworthy candidate if the whole time you're going "ready to switch at any second", you left it really late, given the way things were going.

I can't for the life of me see what Excal did to rack up all those votes out of nowhere, and most so relatively close to the end of the day. Only Sopko was really sticking with an original, non-out-of-the-blue vote whilst the rest of the train was a phantom act. I'm pretty damn suspicious of Glen. Some of this also applies to Tonfa, being the other lead there, but I'm not getting the same "Wow I really want to vote that guy, wink wink!" attitude surrounding him.

Of all the votes involved, Kilga's seems the most blatantly opportunistic, and nobody else seemed to be delaying their moment to pounce so much as him. ##Vote: Kilga, answer for this.