[Game Over] Worms Armageddon Mafia

[Kilgamayan]

I didn't feel like pursuing it because there are at least four people I'd lynch ahead of Sopko right now and with the way I feel like I've been talking to walls all day I didn't have the inclination to continue to divert yet another focus that way. Especially when it's the only thing I'm actually holding against the guy.

It's a wrinkle that won't really be important until an endgame where we start voting people off for being the least likely town candidate rather than the most likely scum candidate.

[Kilgamayan]

Bed now. Should be back a few hours before deadline. Announcing intent to switch to Bard should no one join me on Yoshi.

[Glen Veil]

... man are you really trying to pull me into a debate on whom I feel was/is not playing well?  That is really never very helpful, it just ticks people off, distracts town, and doesn't find scum.  The only reason I made those comments in the first place was to give the main reason why I wasn't trying to go trumpet my cases and pull people around day 1.  Seriously now.

How am I trying to pull you into a debate on who is and isn't playing well?  Honestly your statement probably wouldn't have worried me, except for the fact that you added the word town into your first post specifically, when you could have just said I don't think people are playing well enough to catch scum this day.  The added town in there just wreaks of a slip of words, the kind of slip that suggest you know who is town, and by extension, who isn't.  Whether people are playing well or not is largely irrelevant in the context that I wanted you to explain that post for.

[Kiro]

Not much to add before I go to sleep. Bard hasn't come back to reply yet. Alice has to post again. Noticeably, Mage decided to unvote Kilga and vote for an Extension. For "all other cases I'm not quite seeing" in your #207, you don't bother to think a little harder about it and put a vote on someone an hour later despite taking the time to reread a little bit of Kilga. Waffles.

Could consider the Smodge case although I find it interesting how relatively weak Yoshi's reasoning is and how much stronger Tom's is.

I should be around for deadline this time. Lightning can't strike the Ontario router twice can it?

[Smodge13]

Alright i see a few things have been laid against me.

The main reasons I'm voting Smodge are that each post seems to be a change in vote, and that he's tried using some very flawed logic to attack me, who I know to be Town, and Rat, who I'm seeing as Town so far. I'd write them off as Town/Town struggles, but the logic he's using and the style of the posts seem intended to try railroading us.
(Partially semantics, I guess? Still, only partially, and I'll only use the post-phrasing as a decider when I can't decide who to vote for.)

Reread the topic, not all my posts have been a change of vote.
Railroading how so? I started by commenting on many things resulting in walls of text which as Alex pointed out was drowning the town, hence i limited it to things and lessened what i commented on, i began to comment on things that i found moderately scummy not every single tiny thing i saw as i did with the walls.

If there are much more scummy people around than Tonfa/Glen/Mage, then why didn't *you* vote for them Smodge? Why vote Excal? Absolute hypocrisy.
And also:

I do look at other players however as we're down to the last 5 hours attempting to push for the lynch of those who have 1 or no votes on them is throwing away a vote of importance

So exactly who was Excal meant to go after, Smodge?
Excal wasn't a tie train until *you* put him there.
Then "Oh we should only vote for the trains now, I'm not moving my vote, Excal needs to die".

Ok Tom, please reread end of day 1.

1. I disagreed with both Glen and Tonfa lynch, Excal i saw as minorly scummy (but nothing compared to Rat/Yoshi) both the trains on glen and tonfa i disliked and it was fast approaching deadline, minorly scummy is better lynch than newb town in my books hence i put the tie vote on Excal knowing that pushing for rat or Yoshi would be useless as it was too late in the day.
Finally Tom, i said many times i would be around for hammer and if need be i would shift the vote to break the tie even if it was Glen or Tonfa (i even said iwould switch to Alex if enough votes were present) i said i would rather not but that i would do it as a lynch is better than no lynch.

I see you also claim each post is a change in vote reread there are many times when i comment on cases but don't switch votes.

I find it surprising both Tom and Yoshi push a case for me at very similar times.

Regardless i hope this answers your question, let me know if i missed anything

Oh and
##Extension Please as so many people were away for 24 hours +
 

[Smodge13]

Also reason i dropped Rat was the only thing mildly scummy about him i could see was his actions at the beginning of day 1.
Reading over the topic since then there has been little i can fault him with hence i did not mention him at the beginning of day 2.

[Carthrat]

Bard why are you voting Alex for not participating on Day 1 when he's participating now on a day that actually matters? Rat will probably get all over me for this but seriously you have two flips to work with and that's all you can point at? I call weaksauce.

no not really, I'm kinda wondering the same thing. Bard's the one omgusing Alex in spite of an endday that should at least be of some interest, and that the other way around doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense as a position to take.

Glen's raising my hackles again with his case on Alex there, pixelbitching over semantics doesn't feel like real hunting and more like an excuse to maintain a vote. I'd switch to vote him again if not for Tonfa getting MK'd, would rather see the flip there before judging the last remaining real day 1 train, since it has to happen that way anyway.

Smodge is also shooting up owing to his case on Yoshi; it seems abundantly clear that the latter wasn't voting Alex over what he perceived as just 'bad play' alone. However, I'm less worried about him bringing the Excal train to a tie there as I am to those who are actually responsible for tiling the balance whilst highlighting other cases they'd like to vote. Which brings me to...

##Unvote, ##Vote: Alice

Where is he? Why was his lone appearance yesterday to switch from Glen to Excal, despite, on revision, seeing that if he hadn't he should've been able to point out to others that the lynch they so longed for was possible? I'm giving Kilga a bit of slack after thinking about it some and figuring day-end chaos is a better excuse for him than anyone, but Alice has no such excuse and he's basically just not here, with it getting rather close to deadline. I'm not that enthusiastic about the prospect of extension, especially if the rationale is less 'a large segment of the population doesn't know what to do' and more 'let's give lurkers additional time'.

[Alice]

Ugh, let's see.

Still not feeling quite good about Glen. In fact, my D1 suspicions on Glen have only gotten worse as of #223. It seems as if you're trying to argue semantics or something. It's easy to see from what Alex said that Town specifically is playing badly because a Townie was lynched on D1. 'Tis not hard to see this. Furthermore, if you feel that you're getting a "scum feeling" from me/Bardiche/Smodge, why are you voting for Alex?

Notably, Glen's D1 posts/vote were instrumental in getting the Excal wagon going, and some of the reasoning, such as in #77 where you claim that Excal is Scum because his arguments are sloppy (FWIW, way to be a hypocrite) and then brings up a very minor case about not quoting an entire sentence for a single line of argument. Was this really your ENTIRE CASE on Excal? Not to mention the whole general horrible flailing about D1 combined with basically horrible wagon-hopping on just about anyone that wasn't you. Not to mention that any time someone asked you about your reasoning on Excal, you responded with generally horrible evasion instead of actual proper reasoning behind your vote. Way to go, etc. D2 you aren't faring much better, as seen for instance with you trying to pick arguments with SirAlex for no good reason at all while at the same time not actually scumhunting. Can't see anyone else who's more deserving of a vote right now, but...

...at the same time, Bardiche is also horrible. Let's do some analysis of #194:

When reading others' posts and they highlight Alex, it is only natural that I check whether their accusations towards him were valid. I found them valid, agreed with them and decided to pursue his lynch as his non-participation to town was more scumlike to me than the other cases at that moment. I do not feel I was bandwagon-hopping, but apparently we disagree on this matter.

Hokay. Let's take a look at your D1 posts containing votes:

- #63, drops his jokevote, slaps a vote down on Tonfa for voting Mage due to him being horrible noob Town, but not necessarily Scum, after this is pointed out by Xanth. Fine. Whatever.
- #78, after being "wary about voting Glen" in #63, he shifts to Glen for "being wishy-washy". Way to be a hypocrite, I guess. Valid case on Glen though, imho, which somewhat alleviates the wtf factor of the switch after 15 posts.
Now things get interesting:
- #120, where he shifts from Glen to SirAlex, moving Glen from 4 to 3 and Alex from 2 to 3, as someone mentioned a couple posts above. His reasoning? Textbook lurking and not participating D1. Now, here's the thing: other than the fact that I have literally seen Alex do this in every game he was in which I have been in and/or read afterwards, but what happened to your other cases? You abandon them especially quickly for some reason, especially in #120 where suddenly you change your mind and think that Glen's play is not Scummy, but rather just merely bad Townie play. Why? There's no reasoning, no explanation behind why you changed your mind on this matter, at all. What did Glen Veil do between posts #78 and #120 to make him suddenly become merely a bad Town player instead of A Potential Scum? I'm not seeing anything of note between those two posts.

EvilTom's case on Mage is also quite notable. Still seeing Mage more as noob-Town, though. I just can't see a Scum-Mage out of nowhere go "yeah I'm not saying anything until I get Delta's opinion on things" and then just go off and vanish for a bit - it doesn't make sense as a Scum gambit, or even as a Scum Mistake.

Not satisfied with Alice's answer so far. You took the time in that deadline rush to put in a few sentences urging others to vote for Glen. You would have known that when you posted it, you'd have to act fast. Yet it didn't materialize when it reasonably could have. Post, F5, read, "oh, Kilga will be here at deadline since he posted 40 seconds before me," repost, vote Glen, done. That can't take more than 1 minute, 2 if you want to add a few sentences explaining the switch.

Yes, and it was five minutes before deadline. I had no guarantee that Kilga would be AROUND to switch to Glen at this time (in fact, the fact that he voted 40 seconds before me and it was 5 minutes before deadline was a decent sign that he most likely would not be constantly mashing F5 before deadline hit), so I made a call out so I could see if a switch was POSSIBLE with the amount of people who WANTED to vote, but it seems that I was right and due to a lack of coordination, which, given the rapidly incoming deadline, is not all that surprising, that there was no way to coordinate a switch to Glen that resulted in anything other than a Tonfa lynch.

So final results for now on my scum-dar: Glen > Bard > Mage > Everyone Else. Accordingly, I am going to:
##Vote: Glen Veil
But if needed to, I am fine with switching to Bardiche before deadline over pretty much everyone else. Notably, I have no idea why people are thinking Alex is Scum, I can't see any of the cases put forth against him so far being valid at all (then again, I *am* discrediting some of them partly on meta. Nevertheless...).

Finally,
##Extension

[Ranmilia]

Sleeping now.  Deadline extensions are never necessary or helpful to town, for reference see every game with them ever, the only remotely productive thing they do is give scum the opportunity to bury a town in words, don't vote for them, don't allow them if you run games, they're a bad idea.  (And make me cranky, yes.)

I wasn't going to respond to Glen, on the basis that his arguments on me are...  flawed to the point where turning it into a discussion would be detrimental to all involved.  If Alice is going to say that, though, I guess I should correct it.  "Town is playing badly since a townie was lynched day 1" is putting the cart before the horse as the statements in question were made well before that lynch.  What I meant was that town is playing poorly because such a large number of players were making fallacious arguments and doing antitown things that even if the entire scumteam was among them there would still be a significant percentage of the town in there too.  It wasn't just a couple of people throwing out those day 1 walls of text and getting into slapfights with newbies over silly stuff, it was easily half the game, maybe more.  And the people who weren't directly involved weren't telling the others to stop, in fact some of them sat on the sidelines and encouraged it.  And hey lookit that, this behavior's what I voted against day 1.

Now can we please drop that and lynch Bard for hypocritical trainhopping?  Thaaanks love you all except whoever is scum see you tomorrow.

[Laggy]

Votecount

Rat (0):
Glen (1): Alice
Bard (3): Alex, Soppy, Kiro
Alex (1): Yoshi, Glen
Tonfa (0): Mage
Soppy (0): Kiro
Smodge (2): Yoshi, Tom
Tom (0):
Mage (0): Tom
Kilga (0): Rat, Mage
Yoshi (2): Kilga, Smodge
Alice (1): Rat
Kiro (0): Alex

Extension (4/7): Kilga, Mage, Smodge, Alice

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 ends in 4 hours.

[Bardiche]

Right, my vote wasn't counted so let's try this again: ##VOTE: SirAlex

And since I don't feel like dying needlessly, I'll claim right now: I'm town Cop. I spied Alex last night since I was wary of him near the end of Day 1, and the search returned a guilty verdict. Gutfeelings etc.

Now, can I convince you people to take an interest in lynching SirAlex instead?

[Yoshiken]

Reread the topic, not all my posts have been a change of vote.
Railroading how so? I started by commenting on many things resulting in walls of text which as Alex pointed out was drowning the town, hence i limited it to things and lessened what i commented on, i began to comment on things that i found moderately scummy not every single tiny thing i saw as i did with the walls.

No, just most of them. Your first three posts all switched votes, and then Day2 started with you voting for someone who wasn't the scummiest to you at the end of Day1.
The problem there is what you stopped commenting on. In the Wall of Text, you mention a few different arguments, focusing on 2-3. In all of your arguments, though, there are some utterly pointless sections - rather than quoting whole posts, just link to them instead, maybe? I'd like to see opinions on the major cases at the time rather than just one case.
Also, if the only Mafia-like thing of Rat you saw was the start of Day1, why was he the scummiest to you at the end of Day1?

Okay. In response to this post...
1. Alex openly stated that he wasn't gonna bother reading the topic at all, which struck me as very anti-Town. As it goes, his Day2 contributions have been better and, hey, I'm not voting him. Ho-hum.
2. I'm sorry, but it took me those 5 minutes to write the comments I was writing. I didn't predict a post every minute towards the end, so figured I'd be able to get that post out without a hitch.
3. Unless I voted someone else, of course. Just look at Glen: Went Excal -> Rat -> Excal, built up suspicion for switching.


As for the current cases... Alice's low post count is problematic, but what's being posted is good stuff (although mostly reiterated). Needless to say, I don't support the case on myself, and I do support the case on Smodge, but... if it comes to it, I'm happy to switch to either Bard or Glen, although think I'd rather vote Glen personally. Both were as bad as each other Day1, and Day2 Glen has just been even worse.


...Bard'Ninja. ...Wow. I... think I'd be happy to switch, yeah. I see no reason Bard would put his head on the line as a Mafia gambit so early on with next to no clear ulterior motive.
##Unvote: Smodge13.
##Vote: Sir Alex.
...I'm still very suspicious of Smodge, though.

[Kilgamayan]

Now, can I convince you people to take an interest in lynching SirAlex instead?

Possibly. When are you going to start doing this? I'll be honest - right now I'm more inclined to think you're scum lying to save his skin than actually the cop.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh yeah. Keeping my vote on Yoshi is stupid now that we have a guilty-result-cop-claim.

##Unvote: Yoshiken
##Vote: Bardiche

[Yoshiken]

Hm. Thinking about this a little... Bard, can you answer me something: is your cop ability one-time or multiple use?

[EvilTom]

Blargh!

##Unvote
##Vote Sir Alex

If he's lying scum, he's damned. Obviously we need to lynch alex.

Also ##extention so everyone can switch votes as necessary.

[Kilgamayan]

Obviously we need to lynch alex.

C'mon, use your brain. Alex presents legitimate reasons to vote for Bard, Bard responds by being hypocritical some more, a few other people recognize his scumminess, and Bard responds to this, not by trying to argue any of the points against him, but by waiting for his target to go to bed before revealing a cop claim? How is this at all an "Obviously Alex is the correct lynch" scenario?

[Carthrat]

Mmph. The claim would explain the vote today, except it doesn't because I expect cops to frame their role-given wisdom within more typical analysis, and the more I check it the less effort seems to have been done. The whole thing seems panicked, far more 'let me live!' than 'kill that guy!'

Gotta go with Kilga on this one. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Bardiche, yeah.

[EvilTom]

Bard came out and voted Alex in his first post today; that's a big co-incidence for a OMGUS scum copclaim. It's also consistent with his day 1 actions - if he was a cop then Alex would be the person he'd probably investigate.

Sure, bard has been playing badly and I can see the reason for doubt, I'm not willing to risk the cop unless I'm majorly sure Bard is scum, and I am not.
If Alex flips town, then Bard dies tomorrow = my reasoning.

[Carthrat]

Do you not find the claim itself incredibly spurious? And would you not think he would be trying harder- seriously, much harder- than he has today to get Alex lynched if he actually had such a verdict? The more I think about it, the more transparent it looks, quite enough to bypass the normal kneejerk 'it is delicious role we must protect it' that tends to happen to claims like this.

[EvilTom]

True true and true; if he'd pursued anyone else at the start of d2 then I'd have voted him as soon as he claimed, but argh the delicious role.. damnit now I'm hungry. bbl kitchen time, gone looking for a bread roll.

[Yoshiken]

About Bard's claim... Gah. I'm really torn at the moment. Lynching either one leads to the same outcome if we're right, same outcome if we're wrong, so.. it's just a case of trying to get it right. I'd almost certainly be voting Bard if it weren't for a) him attacking Alex right from the start for... no particular reason, and b) the fact that this kind of Mafia gambit would make little sense to pull this early on.
I really want to hear whether or not Bard's ability has any restrictions/limited uses before voting him. Knowing that'll pretty much decide things for me.

[Smodge13]

About Bard's claim... Gah. I'm really torn at the moment. Lynching either one leads to the same outcome if we're right, same outcome if we're wrong, so.. it's just a case of trying to get it right. I'd almost certainly be voting Bard if it weren't for a) him attacking Alex right from the start for... no particular reason, and b) the fact that this kind of Mafia gambit would make little sense to pull this early on.
I really want to hear whether or not Bard's ability has any restrictions/limited uses before voting him. Knowing that'll pretty much decide things for me.

Debating and reading but this is sticking out at me heavily.

Yoshi why do you want to know conditions of Bards possible role?

what if he claims its 1 use that he's used up, you'll lynch him?
or if he claims infinite uses he's pretty much a sitting duck to scum over night (this is assuming its truth)

This sounds like rolefishing a bit too much if Bard doesn't get lynched then maybe these questions should be asked, but at the moment their either A) Irrelevant or B) Asking cop to commit suicide

[Smodge13]

Oh and while im here
##Unvote:Yoshi

[EvilTom]

Yeah good point Smodge. Such considerations are unnecessary.

It just comes down to this:
Do you want to lynch Bard, even though he might be the cop?
No use rolefishing Bard, if he's scum he'll just make up crap, if he's town then rolefishing hurts town.

Blargh. I'm not comfortable with trusting a dodgy claim, but in this case that doesn't outweigh the fact that we might be lynching the cop. I'm leaving my vote where it is, on Alex - who didn't contribute day 1 other than to help get Excal lynched. If I look noobish tomorrow then fine, it will be a very short day.

I'm too tired, I'm going to bed :\