[Game Over] Worms Armageddon Mafia

[Yoshiken]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot earlier in my WoT.

##Unvote, Vote Smodge13.

I guess I was a little hasty in my vote on Mage earlier, although I'd definitely like to see him consider some of the other cases. This focus on Kilga seems completely unwarranted at this stage.

[Laggy]

Votecount

Rat (0):
Glen (1): Smodge
Soppy (0):
Smodge (1): Glen, Yoshi
Tom (0): Kilga
Mage (1): Rat, Yoshi
Kilga (0): Mage
Yoshi (4): Tom, Kilga, Kiro, Glen, Alice
Alice (1): Soppy
Kiro (0):

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 3 ends in 27 hours.

[Magetastic]

I'll be honest. I tried to cover too many things at once with the Kilga case, and ended up over-reachng by accident. Need some time to recover/rethink that a little.

For now, though, utterly confused about Yoshi. He starts his post off seemingly rather straightforward and tame, and then once he's done saying I'm grasping at staws, he get's very aggressive.
(And about the 'grasping at straws' thing, if he'd bothered to take a look at the context, he'd have noticed I was trying to answer the question) Definitely went above Alice now, though Kilga's my main suspect still.

And if you want to accuse me of tunnel-vision, fine. Go ahead. I have been tunnel-visioning. Because I'll notice something that seems off, and I'll keep it in mind, and if anything makes it stand out, I'll go for the person.

Which reminds me. Martyr Card and Weak Sauce. (Alex wasn't against the Tonfa lynch the same way you were. He just thought Tonfa to be town. And, hell. In your first link, he even mentions that a big part of why he thought Tonfa was town was because of the people going after Tonfa, not the posts themselves)

##Vote Kilga

Ninja'd by Glen and Yoshi. Are you saying I shouldn't vote for who I think scummiest? And if you're just talking about consideration of the other options, then how's this strike your fancy?

Also, on re-read.

Yeah this is hopeless I'm just going to ignore Mage for the rest of the game. Will gladly join in on whatever day is deemed his lynch day though I'd rather see Alice hang first (and would rather see Yoshi go ahead of both).

Doing a proper read of Yoshi's post (previous posts were on limited time) I see no reason to move my vote. I also see no reason to be afraid of L-1. Are people seriously worried about a quicklynch rush?

In thinking about my inquiry to Alice I guess 11/4 is possible (since 12/3 with two vanilla goon flips seems unfair toward scum) so I retract that question. I'm too used to 13-and-under games.

Sticks out at me. Not sure how to read that yet, though.

[Yoshiken]

I don't see how the end part of my last post is aggressive, to be honest. Besides, is aggression really a bad thing? I think we've already seen that aggressive play tends to lead to a bigger reaction and hence more discussion.

(And about the 'grasping at straws' thing, if he'd bothered to take a look at the context, he'd have noticed I was trying to answer the question)

I knew you were answering the question, but I'll admit that I misread the context - combined with Kilga's post in response to Kiro, I thought it was referring to him.

Ninja'd by Glen and Yoshi. Are you saying I shouldn't vote for who I think scummiest? And if you're just talking about consideration of the other options, then how's this strike your fancy?

Oh, don't get me wrong, you should -definitely- vote for who you think is scummiest. But that brief part on "These people are next in line" is the only section of Day3 posting from you that's been non-Kilga.

As for the quicklynch rush, it wasn't likely to happen before my appearance at least, as that'd seriously look bad for whoever dropped the hammer, so I can understand what Kilga's saying. (And, I've been accused of being Mafia for over-reacting to an early-day vote rush in a previous game, so... at worst, I'd say that's neutral for Kilga. >.>)

[Magetastic]

Ehh, still sticks out to me.

Soppy's lurkiness is starting to raise my hackles though. I know he's been around the forum, and yet he says nothing. Not even a generic "I'm alive!" post.

[Kiro]

Kilga: You seem to be ignoring the big picture. Tom is rightfully suspicious for voting Alex. But he has pursued both of the other people who did the same: Yoshi and Smodge. So it's a bit weird if I want to think about him being scumbuddies with them (but not impossible). Then I saw you vote Tom and since then vote Yoshi after Tom did the same, letting Tom off the hook a bit. Have you considered the Yoshi train could be a mislynch? If it's a coincidence, so be it, but I saw it and decided it deserved some attention.

---

Yoshi: I see where Smodge took some liberties with the following in his #88: "he (Yoshi) discards Tonfa's comment as bad phrasing" because it doesn't look like Yoshi disregarded Tonfa's statements to me. And I see Smodge quoting large parts of Tonfa and mostly saying he agreed with them. Including the part about the LAL when it was demonstrated Tonfa at one point thought Glen was scummy and had since gone back to Glen. The LAL mentality occurred between those two events, how can Smodge say it was ok for him to have that mentality in that time period? And I don't see an actual opinion on Tonfa despite all those quote boxes and Smodge giving opinions on everyone else. Smodge does seem to be getting on Yoshi more for a perceived flipflopping rather than for the actual case against Tonfa. And Smodge's #138 looks bad on several levels.

Your concerns about Smodge's first Day 2 post are valid although his points against you are fair as well. To his credit, it's not like it's out of the blue because he did press you on Day 1 as well. Most of the rest of your points didn't seem as important to me, the random 1-2 line posts don't mean anything. I don't agree that every single thing you mentioned about Smodge was scummy bad, but you re-highlighted a few things that do stand out, mainly Smodge's lack of a real opinion of Tonfa when he voted you. And objectively, he's a bit worse than you for being on the Excal wagon as well as the Alex wagon.

---

Glen: Tom's case on Smodge? You talking about the one from Day 2? Care to explain more about Smodge instead of just passively parking your vote on Yoshi, especially when you're saying one or the other is Scum, but not both? Play it right, not play it safe.

---

And since I didn't seem to mention it much, Alice has gotta explain that Glen vote when he's also willing to clear Mage for nubTown. How exactly are you deciding one is scummy and the other isn't?

---

Waiting for Smodge's replies to Yoshi's case and my questions before I decide on any vote changes.

[Alice]

@Kiro: Because Glen's actions at least make some sense as NoobScum. Flailing about when stuck in a crappy situation is almost characteristic of Noob Scum, whereas sticking to a single case which is almost blatantly bad reeks more of Noob Town with a horrible case of tunnelvision. Scum don't care who they lynch so long as they lynch Town, it's Town that would be more likely to swing towards tunnelvision on non-obvious targets than Scum. Hence my somewhat-clear of Mage, yet pressing of Glen.

@Kilga: the speed at which the Yoshi wagon developed was suspicious is all...he went from no votes to L-1 in a little over 12 hours. Mafia here does tend to go fast, but this is even more speedy than usual, it seemed to me at the time at least.

Glen does look a whole lot better than he did before after Tonfa's flip, even after we take into consideration his actions today regarding votehopping onto the Yoshi wagon as soon as the Smodge one didn't appear to be viable. Still think he's horrible, but think Yoshi's a much more likely target for today.

Soppy needs to show up and respond and offer some more analysis for today. I mean LAL is good advice and all that, but when you're saying to LAL at the same time as you're threatening to lurk past 24 hours...yeah. I'm also slightly disconcerted about him now that it's revealed that he started the Excal wagon *and* it was for slightly bizarre pretenses. His D2 activity makes him look better, being an early vote on Bard, but come on, if you're going to yell at me for not being around during the D2 Bard fakeclaim clusterfuck, don't *ALSO* not be around during the D2 Bard clusterfuck. Starting to grow progressively more wary about Soppy.

Still think that Yoshi is the best lynch for today, though, after further consideration. Horribad D2 cheerleading for the Bard lynch while voting Alex followed by a Duh(TM) Hammer for Town Cred(TM) doesn't endear him much to me, and none of his latest posts persuade me much to move my vote off him again, so:
##Vote: Yoshi

Tom I'm still not getting much of a read on, need to reread his posts again. Kiro, Kilga and Rat all seem Town to me at the moment. Smodge is suspicious but a distant third after my ideal lynches of Yoshi and Soppy.

[Kilgamayan]

Kilga: You seem to be ignoring the big picture. Tom is rightfully suspicious for voting Alex. But he has pursued both of the other people who did the same: Yoshi and Smodge. So it's a bit weird if I want to think about him being scumbuddies with them (but not impossible). Then I saw you vote Tom and since then vote Yoshi after Tom did the same, letting Tom off the hook a bit. Have you considered the Yoshi train could be a mislynch? If it's a coincidence, so be it, but I saw it and decided it deserved some attention.

Oh, I admit I muffed opening Day 3 a bit by not posting my rankings before voting for Tom and then switching back to Yoshi. I would argue that it shouldn't be held against me because (a) I spend Day 2 pursuing Yoshi and (b) I held his approach to the Bard claim against him (and still do) as well as his reporting (and I still do) when Tom didn't but I can at least understand why people wouldn't like me for it.

What I object to is your use of

When I read Mage's point about Kilga defending against the Tonfa lynch again, it's actually a decent point, and should not be so easily discounted imo.

and

If Kilga decided to bus Bard

in the same fucking post. It's positing that I'm scum for opposing one scum's lynch and I'm also scum for bussing another, which is really goddamn stupid. THIS is why I cannot win the argument people are using against me - it's simply too ignorant. What am I supposed to say? "Scum would try to distance themselves" "Oh yeah which is why you voted Bard on Day 2!!!11!" or "Scum wouldn't bus each other like that" "Oh yeah which is why you saved Tonfa on Day 1!!!22!" How the hell am I supposed to defend myself from people holding both sides of the coin against me?

[Hunter Sopko]

It's ironic that the first time I bring out a serious LAL case, I end up losing a crapload of time due to flight + subsequent sleep. I made sure to get something on the board beforehand, but the red-eye flight kicked my ass way more than I expected it to. Oh well.

Alice is back and participating! Sweet! Finally.

I would argue that NOT voting for an Extension D2 was the scummy thing to do prior to Bard's cop shenanigans which were awful as all heck.

Remember though that this happened BEFORE the Bard copclaim came around. The timing of actions is always just as important to look at as the actions themselves.

I honestly promised myself that I wouldn't take my vote off Alice before he made three substantive posts today... and i'm honestly glad that I didn't even need to bring it up.  so...

##UNVOTE: Alice

Tom's OMGUS of Alice stepping off the Yoshi train temporarily really kinda raises a red flag for me. While I agree with the argument that there isn't much to fear from it except an overenthusiastic townie making a sudden lynch, this just  jumped out. With the amount of time left, it doesn't feel like a scummy move to me to take a step to ensure we get more discussion, especially since Alice hasn't stepped off pursuing Yoshi.

Yoshi's definitely flailing. I'm getting a null read from it, since the arguments against smodge are legitimate enough concerns to look at. I'm still leaning him here, as the evidence is just pretty overwhelming and there's a lot that the lynch can tell us. A town flip would certainly give us the impetus to pursue different lines of invesigation. Otherwise, we're going to be treading water with this forever.

I'm announcing my intent to lynch in the morning. I'm gonna stick around to contibute more until then though.

NINJA'D- As far as the Excal train goes, Alice, it was a day 1 case. I'll freely admit that I looked too far into what Excal had said and it was a weak argument. However, I'd intended to switch to Tonfa and announced as such. I was wasn't able to make it back to a computer before the end of the day though. I was on vacation from the beginning of the game until I flew back this morning. This doesn't excuse whats happened, but an explanation is more than warranted. Take this how you will.

[Kilgamayan]

Missed responding to part of Kiro's post.

I've considered the idea that Yoshi is a mislynch, but if I unvoted everyone that I thought could be a mislynch I'd never have a vote down. As far as I'm concerned he's the most likely scum candidate, and the mathematical chance that he could be town isn't enough to persuade me from changing my vote.

[EvilTom]

Cutting in quickly to respond to something that's more or less directed at me.

Tom's OMGUS of Alice stepping off the Yoshi train temporarily really kinda raises a red flag for me. While I agree with the argument that there isn't much to fear from it except an overenthusiastic townie making a sudden lynch, this just  jumped out.

OMGUS? Is that what we call scumhunting now.
It was obviously L-1. Nobody would quickhammer. What exactly did Alice fear? Why back off the vote (and back off pressure)?
Alice 'might not be used to the way we play around here', but it's generally regarded as suicide to quickhammer, especially 8 hours into the day.

With the amount of time left, it doesn't feel like a scummy move to me to take a step to ensure we get more discussion, especially since Alice hasn't stepped off pursuing Yoshi.

Do you submit that discussion would have somehow been cut short if Alice had not removed her vote? Are you suggesting a townsperson would have quick-hammered? I find such a claim hard to believe.

I found it odd that Alice backpeddled. We follow these inconsistencies to catch scum slipping up. But I find it more odd still that you'd classify scumhunting as OMGUS.

[Hunter Sopko]

Yes, I actually DID say that there was a danger of an overenthusiastic townie hammer. I don't want to get TOO far into meta, but Smart town wouldn't hammer for the obvious reasons of wanting to continue the day for discussion. Smart scum wouldn't do it (if he's town) because it'd look incredibly bad. Even moreso if both Yoshi and the hammerer are scum. They would still get put under scrutiny if they quickhammered even if Yoshi came up scum, so it's not a good move.

So that leaves a dumb town and dumb scum. Somehow in this situation I think a dumb town would be more likely to quickhammer than dumb scum in both scenarios. It's UNLIKELY that a quickhammer would occur, given the circumstances, but the risk is always there. Your assumptions that we were completely safe from this are based on a solid grasp of the game, which as we've seen this game, isn't a given.

Whats your read now that Alice has revoted Yoshi? Do you feel it was also scummy, or do you think it's a reaction by a townie getting strongarmed by dissenting opinion on the move?

[Carthrat]

Firstly-

Huh? In my line of questioning to Yoshi, I'm trying to understand why Yoshi was putting the Smodge case forward. Yoshi is claiming Smodge's style looks like railroading or something, and is not talking about his actual content. Trying to get a straight answer from Yoshi on what content specifically, like clarifying what were Smodge's "utterly pointless sections" and what else about Smodge's opinions that looked like they were wishy-washy.

Actually got you mixed up with Sopko here, who argued 'smodge had a pragmatic approach to lynching Alice', apologies. Don't agree with that sentiment, as I said before. Apologies nonetheless.

Mage: I have taken Kilga's day 1 into account, indeed I've had to revise my opinion of him since then substantially thanks to what I saw out of him on day two; I'm taking the stance that he's not lying about replacing late in the day causing some odd judgements. As for his Tonfa defence... I dunno, declaring his intentions so boldly there seems like a null to me. It's true that you can apply WIFOM to 'did he or didn't he bus', but in this case he was on it very quickly and, I feel, would more likely have pulled out some play-it-safe role logic to train onto Alex in that post-claim situation were he scum. He did persue Bard quite aggressively there as well, so it didn't look like what I'd expect a bus in that circumstance to, either.

Don't like some of the pro-Mage arguments I'm seeing, on the other hand. Alice asking 'why would scum play this way' feels kinda dumb; any number of reasons? Kilga does looks shakey at a glance for his early play, opportunity could be seen there- particularly for the lazy scum who decides on a lynch and then digs up evidence on it, as I think Mage is.

I see Mage is really passive after Bard takes the lead at #3. Thing is he looks almost too passive if he were Scum knowing two of his buddies could potentially die on Day 2. I just don't see Scum Mage standing by idly because he should know that doesn't reflect well on him either. It really looks like he played as if he couldn't decide on who would be the next best target and while that could happen if he were either alignment, I think he would have been a little more urgent if he were Scum. Once again, leaning nub Town for me.

I'm torn on this idea, though. On the one hand, I do think it's clear Mage was somewhat clueless. The worst factor imo is how he didn't drop a vote near the end at all, evidently hoping for an extension. I agree that it could go either way, but the way he's acted at the start of both latter days has me seeing everything in the worst possible light. The problem is, I think, that sure, quite a bit of what he's done could be conceived as just not being on the ball, but the two main points- his leap off Tonfa day 2 and case on Kilga today- remain quite scummy and make clear everything else.

My two cents on Alice- it's not so much the unvoting alone so much as the whole approach he's had to Yoshi.

Yoshi is pretty much horrible. Soppy and Kiro bring up the major points, I'd also like to generally add the cheerleading D2 during the Bard lynch, essentially it seems as if you tried to believe and not believe the Bard fakeclaim at the same time, and then hammer for Townie cred at a time when it was virtually guaranteed that Alex would not, in fact, be the D2 lynch.

##Vote: Yoshi

It's tacked on to the end of a much larger post, doesn't do much but reference 'the guys above me are right'. I expected more, and the quick drop of the vote certainly feels like an 'oh shit I wasn't actually reading or paying attention uh unvote!' than genuine concern.

[Smashy]

Just because some random ancient being is trying to eat me doesn't mean I can't provide...

Votecount

Rat (0):
Glen (1): Smodge
Soppy (0):
Smodge (1): Glen, Yoshi
Tom (0): Kilga
Mage (1): Rat, Yoshi
Kilga (1): Mage, Mage
Yoshi (5): Tom, Kilga, Kiro, Glen, Alice, Alice
Alice (0): Soppy
Kiro (0):

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 3 ends in around 13 hours. (I think shut up Kilga)

[Smodge13]

Busy night at work (was ill last night) won't be able to get a significant post written up for about 9 hours from now.
##Unvote: Glen

This is just to meet the 24 hour minimum requirement.

Glen looked mildly scummy for his conflictions but it is unlikely both him and Tonfa were scum, i placed the vote more to get an explanation than to actually push a lynch.

I am still disliking how quickly this Yoshi train has formed.

Will have analytical post looking at others when i knock off from work

Sum things up where im standing Alice/Rat/Kilga most likely town.
Glen/Mage newb town
Soppy - No clue
Tom/Kiro mildly scummy (will include reasons in post when i knock off or during lunch if i have time.
Yoshi - i presented my case

[Yoshiken]

I haven't much to add here, really. Only one thing really stood out to me, and that's:

Yoshi's definitely flailing. I'm getting a null read from it, since the arguments against smodge are legitimate enough concerns to look at.

So, it's flailing with a legit argument? Personally, I wouldn't see that as flailing.

Anyways, I honestly haven't got much more to say today. Other than a few slightly-Town/Mafia reads - specifically, Rat & Kiro seem slightly more Town, Alice slightly less due to the vote/unvote nonsense and the panic of "Oh, we're at L-1 already?! I better unvote!" despite being the person to put me at L-1 -  I'm pretty much resigned to (probably) getting killed today, and I've said all I have to on that matter, methinks.
Well, there'll still be another couple of days before LYLO, at least, assuming there are two Mafia left.

[EvilTom]

@Mage
Your post at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72893#msg72893 did nothing to prove your position, as far as I'm concerned.
"GAH. Will finish tomorrow. >_<" - never delivered.

@Kilga

What is this why are people suspecting Glen? Did we all forget Page 4 already?

Note that this happened when the Tonfa train hit its first peak. Do people seriously believe Bard and Tonfa would have shifted trains from one scum to another?

I'm not discounting the possibility of a big scumbus here.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72952#msg72952
Are you doing anything here other than invoking the holy word of the dead towny?


On Alice:
Being second last on the Excal train (right before Tonfa) coming off the Glen train is interesting, as pointed out by Soppy.

Alice, your posts suggest you believe there are two (possibly more) scum remaining. Why do you think this?

This was never actually answered. I find this incredibly suspicious.

My two cents on Alice- it's not so much the unvoting alone so much as the whole approach he's had to Yoshi.
[..]
It's tacked on to the end of a much larger post, doesn't do much but reference 'the guys above me are right'. I expected more, and the quick drop of the vote certainly feels like an 'oh shit I wasn't actually reading or paying attention uh unvote!' than genuine concern.

QFT.

Whats your read now that Alice has revoted Yoshi? Do you feel it was also scummy, or do you think it's a reaction by a townie getting strongarmed by dissenting opinion on the move?

If it wasn't scummy before, it is now. Looks like genuine panic reaction to me. Does not look like strongarming a townie.
A townie would stick to their guns; as Rat said, it looks more like Alice wasn't really paying attention, got called on it, panicked, and flailed (to coin the term of the day).
Alice's scummitude has increased.

On Yoshi
I do not think he is flailing. I think he has done a rather adequate job of defending himself.

##Unvote, at least for now, I want to look over things.

[Kilgamayan]

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72952#msg72952
Are you doing anything here other than invoking the holy word of the dead towny?

Yes. I am pointing at a confirmed townie that held views of Tonfa and his train that were very similar to my own. I do this to point out to people that believing Tonfa was town and/or disliking the train on him was not inherently a scummy action. I point this out because people seem to believe it is. I don't want people believing it is because I don't like being attacked by crappy arguments. I don't like being attacked by crappy arguments because I don't want to get voted off under weak pretenses. I don't want to get voted off under weak pretenses because I like playing this game.

Is it okay if I stop here or do you want me to go further?

[Kilgamayan]

Also I rescinded my question to Alice that you pointed out so I have no problem with his not answering it.

[EvilTom]

Is it okay if I stop here or do you want me to go further?

No that's fine. I see what you did there now.

Why did you rescind your question? I find it interesting Alice assumed there were 4 scum, I wanted to know why/how.

[Kilgamayan]

Because I asked it initially in a 13-player game mindset (since that's what I'm used to). After asking about it I double-checked the player count, saw that it was 15 instead of 13, and thought about 12/3 vs. 11/4.

I had a hard time seeing 12/3 with two vanilla goon flips given scum normally get at least two (and usually three) roles in 10/3 games. 11/4 with two vanilla goons seemed plausible, however, and I figured Alice had probably reached that conclusion already, so I let the question go.

Alice wasn't the only one two suggest 11/4, I think Kiro did it once or twice as well.

[Kilgamayan]

*only on to

DAMN YOU HOMOPHONES

[Kilgamayan]

...Fuck it.

[Kiro]

Kilga: Me saying "If Kilga decided to bus Bard" was speculating. Since I didn't provide any supporting evidence of such behavior, I overreached on that point and probably should not have mentioned it. So I'll just consider the points that you defended Tonfa which is suspicious but not obvscum, as well as the switch from Tom to Yoshi which has no definitive meaning atm. And I didn't word the part about Yoshi maybe being a mislynch correctly, but with your statement and not unvoting, you answered my question.

Sopko: Not getting why you're more alarmed at Tom's proclamation of Alice backpedaling on Alice's L-1 vote than Alice actually doing it. Alice totally missing the fact that his vote would bring it to L-1 counts for something, at least carelessness on Alice's part and someone can legitly mention it. I would also agree with Tom that Yoshi isn't flailing. Yoshi presented his case on Smodge in a chronological order and it was the first time I could actually follow a case of his reasonably well. And some of the attributable scummy parts about Smodge are there when I looked it over.

Carthrat: I get what you mean about Mage. The part of my post you quoted is pretty much the only thing stopping me from voting him along with Tonfa falling back to a Mage vote on Day 1 in between Glen votes. Like Glen, it's a clear based more on external factors than their actual play. We'll probably be at a difference on this for awhile, but it looks like that issue is going to be postponed for today. On the other hand, I do want to see Mage share his thoughts on some of the more recent things going on here. Glen too actually... argh.

Also, not sure I like Smodge's clarification that he voted Glen because he wanted an explanation more than to push a lynch. Doesn't quite match with your actual vote reason.

Although i have suspected Yoshi for a while he is already a -1 to hammer without even typing a single post in his defence,this is way too hasty.

Glens switch looks rediculously scummy to me saying that i'm suspicious but switching to Yoshi with no reason stated and putting him at -2.

##Vote: Glen

As much as i prefer someone not to be voting for me.
Explain.

Also, even if Yoshi was your primary lynch choice and he was at L-1, bring up a case and put a vote on a second possible scum WHILE asking Glen your question. Otherwise, you're just idle parking and not doing as much scumhunting.

Kilga: At least you spelled "Fuck" right.

[EvilTom]

I realise that there's not a lot of time left in the day, (what 9 hours?), and I apologise for the late change of tactic, but this Alice thing has thrown me for a loop.

As of now towny people to me are Kilga, Rat, Mage and Glen (oh god), and Kiro.
Neutral are Smodge and Yoshi.
Alice and Soppy are looking downright dirty to me, possible scumpair remaining.

SORRY FOR THE GIANT CASE BUT PLEASE READ IT! I've broken it up for you.


Alice makes a really great point on Soppy:

On the Excal train, we have an early hop on from Soppy, which to me is weird:

As people have noted with my argument previous, it's a softball day 1 argument. I'm actually fine sticking to it, but even I see that it's not entirely built rock solid. Meanwhile, we have Excal who has been playing hyper-aggressive townie all day. This cheerleading response to my argument seemed... off to me. Especially when he says he's trying to direct discussion, instead he has a summary post which says... nothing. And he admits it and tries to play it off as "LOL silly me" at the end.

This doesn't add up to me, since judging from how Excal's played so far he probably should have been the first to jump on my case. I probably would've been fine with it had it not had point C saying that there are holes in it, but for the points previous he's sticking with his other vote, but he doesn't. So...

No matter how many times I go over this argument I'm still not understanding it. So you vote Excal for...spectating/reporter-style posting? Or for not being on YOUR case for a mistake you made? Or for playing hyper-agressively when Town-Excal normally does not do that? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. It's also notable that this is the start of the Excal train D1.

Except then votes Yoshi in about 5 words, wtf.


Soppy makes a fairly lame case on Alice:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72898#msg72898
Stating in the same case post:

I'm totally down for a Yoshi lynch today. But Alice has gotta participate more and give us some answers.

(In other words - this case is not real, full steam ahead on Yoshi).
And then unvotes, going after nobody else in particular (content to let Yoshi die).


Also a reminder: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72136#msg72136 - Soppy started the Excal train (based on pretty poor logic), and rode it to hammer.

Soppy also slipped up here:

So if I do end up joining a train, it looks like it would be Tonfa's at this point... but as far as that I have to admit that I agree with whats been said as far as him playing inconsistantly and he hasn't really done much to support his claim of being town... so I have nothing to add.

Xanth's not rubbing off on me well. he's playing things fairly light and not venturing too far, if at all, out of his comfort zone of talking about Tonfa and Glen.

(Bold mine) - Makes a token effort on the Tonfa case, nothing more, and says he will join the Tonfa case - which he does not do.


Alice and Soppy make half-hearted attacks against each other all game, with temporary votes that do no more than superficial effect.
Half of their "attacks" are LAL, and encouragements to post.
Scum calling each other out for lurking is textbook - "Oh look, he voted! I'll remove my vote now, case dismissed."

Alice in particular strikes me as someone who needs more involvement.

Soppy needs to show up and respond and offer some more analysis for today. I mean LAL is good advice and all that, but when you're saying to LAL at the same time as you're threatening to lurk past 24 hours...yeah. I'm also slightly disconcerted about him now that it's revealed that he started the Excal wagon *and* it was for slightly bizarre pretenses. His D2 activity makes him look better, being an early vote on Bard, but come on, if you're going to yell at me for not being around during the D2 Bard fakeclaim clusterfuck, don't *ALSO* not be around during the D2 Bard clusterfuck. Starting to grow progressively more wary about Soppy. [...] Smodge is suspicious but a distant third after my ideal lynches of Yoshi and Soppy.

(Not that Alice has pushed especially hard for such a Soppy lynch).

Alice is back and participating! Sweet! Finally.
[...]
I honestly promised myself that I wouldn't take my vote off Alice before he made three substantive posts today... and i'm honestly glad that I didn't even need to bring it up.  so...
##UNVOTE: Alice

In fact, outside of the times I've just mentioned, I don't think Alice talks about Soppy at all.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=779;sa=showPosts - If you don't believe me, "CTRL-F Sopp".

Tom's OMGUS of Alice stepping off the Yoshi train temporarily really kinda raises a red flag for me.

Not to mention the way Soppy leapt to Alice's defence over Alice's Yoshi unvote - and claimed I was OMGUS-ing Alice.
And calling Yoshi's recent actions 'flailing' is not right.

As for Soppy voted Bard etc. arguments - scumbus etc in reply.


I know I'm forging out into new territory here (with less than 10 hours to go), but I couldn't drop this once I realised what was going on.

##Vote Alice - I feel more likely of the two, especially with recent Yoshi vote flip-flopping (but Soppy is totally complicit)

I would appreciate it if others weighed in on this case, it's big and I'm sure I've missed stuffs, as people haven't really looked at these two much/at all.