[Game Over] Worms Armageddon Mafia

[Smodge13]

I decided to Pressure glen with some backup as logic hence pressure.

Yoshi i have presented enough against.

Eviltom -
Minor things really here.
Tom Votes Mage/Glen day 1, attacks Tonfa but sticks with voting Mage/Glen
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72092#msg72092
End of Day 1 Votes Glen Pushing it up to the 3 way tie then leaves with no intention of sticking around for lynch, he also says mage is more scummy
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72300#msg72300
We then have Tom's Mega WoT where makes a case against and votes me

Overall to me there seems to be much more scummy people than Tonfa/Glen/Mage that Excal seems to be attacking so heavily.

If there are much more scummy people around than Tonfa/Glen/Mage, then why didn't *you* vote for them Smodge? Why vote Excal? Absolute hypocrisy.
And also:

I do look at other players however as we're down to the last 5 hours attempting to push for the lynch of those who have 1 or no votes on them is throwing away a vote of importance

So exactly who was Excal meant to go after, Smodge?
Excal wasn't a tie train until *you* put him there.
Then "Oh we should only vote for the trains now, I'm not moving my vote, Excal needs to die".

Oh look Tom, your using against me what you yourself did, the difference is i said i would switch my vote at the end if need be
We then have cop-claim lynch Alex
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72769#msg72769
No argumentation or reasoning whatsoever
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72778#msg72778
Followed by not trusting dodgy claim but it is a cop stay with voting Alex.

Now For Alice although i said she was town earlier rereading often changes things.
Swing Vote for Excal, Condemnds Glen yet avoids Tonfa,could have elft her vote on Glen but this puts Excal in a Tie with Tonfa thereby saving him with 4 minutes to go
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72337#msg72337
Tonfa puts his vote down with 2 min to go straight after Alice
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72341#msg72341

Getting this out there now cos going on lunch break and dont want to lose it, will continue where i leave off
Toms Case on Alice makes a fair bit of sense

[Smodge13]

Gah i fail

Copy past missed the top half, this is the top

Warning wall o text

Ok first things first to address the case against me let me know if i miss anything

First of all when i say Yoshi discards Tonfa's post as bad phrasing it is written in paragraph 1

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72143#msg72143

As for my opinion of the tonfa case, i say it multiple times that i cannot see the case against him at all, Tonfa was a complete Null read to me (and still is even though we know he is scum)
Evidence here
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72319#msg72319

My actions Day 1 i have explained i disliked both the Glen and Tonfa case hence voted Excal who i saw as mildly scummy

Day 2, bleh i sucked my logic was terrible and theres nothing i can do to take it back.

To answer Kiro
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg73059#msg73059
What am i meant to do Hammer Yoshi?
I decided to Pressure glen with some backup as logic hence pressure.

Yoshi i have presented enough against.

[Yoshiken]

Tom: I'd be pretty happy with an Alice lynch, methinks. Both have been relatively null reads for me throughout, and seemingly a few others - Mafia avoiding the spotlight well, perhaps? And I really don't like the vote to L-1, followed by "We're on L-1 already?!"
Sopko... seems to have done well at flying under the radar. Otherwise, completely neutral for me, might take a re-read of his posts later when I've got more time.

[EvilTom]

Oh SHI- When did it become 4am? When I spent over 2 hours writing a post, that's when. Bed time, will try and wake up before deadline.

[Magetastic]

I don't really have an opinion on most of the other cases. The ones I do have something to say about, however...

Alice: Interesting approach. Definitely seeing the case, but I'm not seeing enough of one to lynch.

Soppy: Who do you think is dumb enough town to hammer less than 24 hours in?

Yoshi: Definitely leaning back towards neutral lately, in my view. I'm almost wanting to ask we take some of the pressure off of him towards deadline if things remain the way they are, as I'm just not seeing him as scum right now.

Tom/Smodge: Really not sure what to make of this. One could be scum, both could be scum, or it could be town/town struggle. Either way, it seems to be an ongoing thing between these two since D2.


Definitely wary of people flying under the radar, though. Which automatically raises my suspicions of Soppy and Alice. Glen's starting to get up there too, though it's only very minor for now, as the only way I'd be able to nail him as definite scum so far would be a scumpairing based off of D1 vote record.

[Kiro]

Smodge, I'm concerned about you quoting huge parts of Tonfa's statements in here. It looks weird compared to the rest of the cases in that post. You're not highlighting specific points of Tonfa's which makes the following explanations of clearing him too general as well as being quite short. And like I said, you don't explicitly say anything about Tonfa's scumminess. The points just sit there while you say "moderate scum read here" on Yoshi and others. Of course later, you state that you can't see the Tonfa case at all repeatedly, but this post is supposed to be the foundation for that and I'm seeing a little less of why you thought so. It's more of a waffle feeling rather than a I disagree with the case.

And Smodge, I was expecting that if you thought Yoshi was Scum, you state what you think, but check out others as possible Scum. Reasonably, there could be 4 Scum this game. And it's unclear whether you thought Glen was Scum at the time of your vote. So if he wasn't in your mind, it looks like you're being lazy with just mere pressure on Glen and not looking for more Scum.

Also your defense of the case against Tom is that he did the same thing? That's it? Doesn't excuse either of you. Is there anything else you want to add to that? And with Tom making a case on Alice/Soppy, what do you think of him now after you make points on him and Alice?

---

Mage: Let's say you can't vote for Kilga today (because it really doesn't look like we'd see a Kilga lynch today). Who would you actually vote for instead?

[Hunter Sopko]

For the record, I called you out on that because I was beginning to get a bad feeling about YOU Tom, not because I felt Alice was any less guilty. Yes, I realize that it means I'm still implicitly defending Alice by doing so, but I don't let things slide when an alarm goes off in my head.

On Alice:
Being second last on the Excal train (right before Tonfa) coming off the Glen train is interesting, as pointed out by Soppy.

Soppy makes a fairly lame case on Alice:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72898#msg72898

So which is it? I make a fairly interesting point on Alice that you use in your own argument, or I make a fairly lame one that should be discounted because I don't keep pressing on Yoshi? Can't have both.

Soppy also slipped up here:

So if I do end up joining a train, it looks like it would be Tonfa's at this point... but as far as that I have to admit that I agree with whats been said as far as him playing inconsistantly and he hasn't really done much to support his claim of being town... so I have nothing to add.

Xanth's not rubbing off on me well. he's playing things fairly light and not venturing too far, if at all, out of his comfort zone of talking about Tonfa and Glen.

(Bold mine) - Makes a token effort on the Tonfa case, nothing more, and says he will join the Tonfa case - which he does not do.

It would be scummy if I tried not to call attention to it. However, both yesterday and today I've answered for this to several people (which is why it's kind of odd people say I'm "flying under the radar". I was away, the train happened before I could get back. The same thing happened to Alex.

Yoshi's definitely flailing. I'm getting a null read from it, since the arguments against smodge are legitimate enough concerns to look at. I'm still leaning him here, as the evidence is just pretty overwhelming and there's a lot that the lynch can tell us. A town flip would certainly give us the impetus to pursue different lines of invesigation. Otherwise, we're going to be treading water with this forever.

I never said the smodge case was bad. However, it was Yoshi's activity BEFORE he gets around to committing to the smodge case is what I was calling flailing. Which was essentially "SMODGEMOSDGESMODGEGlenKilga... owait, I vote Mage" in: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72914#msg72914

We then have cop-claim lynch Alex
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72769#msg72769
No argumentation or reasoning whatsoever
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg72778#msg72778
Followed by not trusting dodgy claim but it is a cop stay with voting Alex.

Looking at these two posts smodge points out, one thing jumps out at me. He's saying that rolefishing is bad and we should avoid rolefishing Bard because rolefishing is bad for town and we might unmask Bard... except Bard's already claimed cop. Why would questioning Bard to make sure he's not BSing be bad? And why is that rolefishing when he's already claimed?

Also, looking over Tom's argument against me, the same could be said of Kilga, who lobs a softball case at Tom at the beginning of today, then moves the vote off almost immediately because of Tom's case against Yoshi. Do you think this is something worth following up on, Tom? Or is it bad logic?

[Kiro]

To address Tom's new case: Interesting angle, but I'm not sure how quickly I'd want to pursue that. It's pretty much a case of a pair of lurkers possibly being Scum. The main problem is that a pair of lurkers usually don't talk about much of anything so it may not be as rare for these 2 to not have mentioned each other that much. If both were more active and still ignored each other, that point would be stronger. Sopko being on Bard early could indeed be bussing, but we need some evidence of behavior for that which you don't really state and is exactly like how I had to withdraw that same point against Kilga. Possible, but currently without merit.

The accusations they place against each other of lurking along with the unvoting after responses is a good point although it's only Sopko voting Alice on that. Thing is that while Alice asked where Soppy was, Yoshi also asked where Soppy went at #323 so it's not exclusively between Soppy and Alice. And I already noted Soppy getting on you rather than Alice after you unvoted and also thought that was weird.

Need some replies from the accused first.

Cut by Soppy: There's one. Response looking alright and I see what you mean by saying Yoshi was flailing earlier before the Smodge case was presented again. I don't think Soppy's done enough wrong to be a major candidate for today.

[Smodge13]

To Kiro,
I was attemptign to comment on all the cases presented, Tonfa's i saw nothing on at all and had no read (i couldn't even see why it was a case) hence i don't really comment much.

As for Tom now that he has posted on Alice, it is a good case and i would actually be comefortable with an Alice Lynch (pending more discussion)
Alice's flip-flop on the hammer - 1 scenario, he pulls his vote off as soon as he realizes, then puts it back on when people start to pressure him, it feels like scum trying to lay low a bit
Tom points out some things about Alice that i didn't realise.

As for my opinion of him whether i think he is less scummy because of the case against Alice no i don't, simply because we don't know Alice's alignment.

Soppy seems very lurkish but even then the few posts he makes have a decent amount of content.

[Smodge13]

Response to Soppy,
Rolefishing a cop when it comes to number of uses is bad.

Yes bard was scum

If someone roleclaims cop generally they're going to become #1 target for the NK.

Now say he only has one use of his power comes out and says it, scum may buy it they may not but it may be a deciding factor for them not to NK him.
A cop claiming they are full cop with unlimited uses just paints a target on his back.

Yoshi appeared to be rolefishing and appeared at the time scummy because scum would be very interested in amount of uses the cop has as it threatens them.

All this is irrellevant though because Bard turned up scum and any scum wouldn't care about number of uses because they know its a sham.

[Yoshiken]

That flailing post Sopko presented... I'll admit, that wasn't amazing; I was somewhat taken back by returning to find I was flying towards the hammer. That said, you're also completely exaggerating the post. How is it "SMODGEMOSDGESMODGEGlenKilga... owait, I vote Mage" exactly? I make one point on each of them, with the vote on Mage. I can't really see how there's a focus on Smodge at all.

As for the 'flying under the radar', you had low content posts Day1 and low activity Day2. Day3 clearly didn't start well, for whatever reasons, although you're back now. Point of the matter is, though, that you've managed to avoid the spotlight up until now almost completely.

Anyways, that's besides the point. Smodge has done nothing to make me less suspicious of him, and Alice has been very low-profile for most of the game. Add in their voting errors (Smodge at Day2End, Alice with the L-1 on me) and they're both looking pretty suspicious to me. I'd be happy with a lynch of either today, although I honestly can't see who Smodge would be a scumpair with unless it is Alice. Since I'm seeing both as Mafia, and we'll probably have more to go on tomorrow if Alice is lynched than if Smodge is...

##Unvote, Vote Alice.

Smodge'Ninjas: Wait, so... are you seeing me 'rolefishing' the copclaim as pro-Town or neutral now?

[Smodge13]

I dont know what to think >.>
I admit i started to see it as pro-town however it could be scum trying to make the roleclaim more real.......
But to be honest i am leaning more towards pro-town and am relooking over your case.

[Smodge13]

##Unvote: Glen
##Vote: Alice

I'm going to need more time to consider what Soppy/Yoshi have just pointed out about the Yoshi case, for now i'm not comefortable with Yoshi lynch, Alice however

[Alice]

First off, no matter what you claim otherwise, I still DO NOT SEE UNVOTING SOMEONE WHEN THEY GOT TO L-1 AFTER LESS THAN TWELVE HOURS AS A SCUMMY MOVE. Please point out how it might be otherwise, because I'm just not seeing it.

And calling Yoshi's recent actions 'flailing' is not right.

How so?

Regarding my case on Soppy: it was notable that he was the start of the Excal lynch train, but you'll notice that my post is asking him for some answers: I thought he was suspicious at the time, but not suspicious enough to lynch. Most of Tom's case seems to actually be on Soppy, with the major point against me being the case on Soppy yet vote on Yoshi, despite the fact that I had some suspicion on Soppy and a fairly damning belief that Yoshi was scum for his D2 actions surrounding Bard and Alex.

Regarding Smodge: why are you so jumpy with your vote anyway? It seems to sit on a single person for no more than half a day at a time or something. Why do you believe that I'm scum anyway?

Vote stays on Yoshi, but Smodge is also raising red flags for me right now.

[Yoshiken]

First off, no matter what you claim otherwise, I still DO NOT SEE UNVOTING SOMEONE WHEN THEY GOT TO L-1 AFTER LESS THAN TWELVE HOURS AS A SCUMMY MOVE. Please point out how it might be otherwise, because I'm just not seeing it.

Because you were the one who put it there in the first place. It's not like you started the train - you were the last vote to make it L-1, and then removed it again in your next post.
It's not so much that you removed the vote as the fact that you put it there carelessly without even realising it was going to L-1.

[Smashy]

Getting ninja'd will not stop the...

Votecount

Rat (0):
Glen (0): Smodge
Soppy (0):
Smodge (0): Glen, Yoshi
Tom (0): Kilga
Mage (0): Rat, Yoshi
Kilga (1): Mage, Mage
Yoshi (4): Tom, Kilga, Kiro, Glen, Alice, Alice
Alice (3): Soppy, Tom, Yoshi, Smodge
Kiro (0):

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 3 ends in around 5 hours.

[Glen Veil]

Yoshi is starting to look a bit better, however Smodge has so many inconsistencies its not even funny.

In his post against me:

Glens switch looks rediculously scummy to me saying that i'm suspicious but switching to Yoshi with no reason stated and putting him at -2.

Not terrible in and of itself, however there is a minor point in that earlier in the post he suggest that I did have a reason if not a minor one.  Then we get this:

Busy night at work (was ill last night) won't be able to get a significant post written up for about 9 hours from now.
##Unvote: Glen

This is just to meet the 24 hour minimum requirement.

Glen looked mildly scummy for his conflictions but it is unlikely both him and Tonfa were scum, i placed the vote more to get an explanation than to actually push a lynch.

I am still disliking how quickly this Yoshi train has formed.

Will have analytical post looking at others when i knock off from work

Sum things up where im standing Alice/Rat/Kilga most likely town.
Glen/Mage newb town

This post just wreaks to me.  In the first post I quoted, I'm ridiculously scummy, then in this post Smodge backtracks after being called out on his vote, goes to minorly scummy straight to considering me newb town.  Justifies his vote as just wanting to pressure an answer even though in his first post his vote was due to me looking scummy.  Also, if he feels it unlikely that both me and Tonfa were scum, why does he need to pressure for an explanation in the first place?

Then we get this statement:

I decided to Pressure glen with some backup as logic hence pressure.

If you felt it unlikely of me being scum, why would you bother to pressure me instead of someone who you could see as possibly being scum, this doesn't make sense to me.

Smodge has seemed to be consistently indecisive, whether it is on why he's voting for me, or end of day 2 shenanigans.  It really just strikes me as an excuse, and not a very valid one for switching votes constantly, which strikes me as something a scum would love to be able to freely do.(By this I mean the ability to switch votes without much thought.)

##Unvote: Yoshiken
##Vote: Smodge

Yeah, pretty convinced that Smodge is scum now.

Outside of that, not seeing Tom's case on Soppy/Alice being scum buddies, it just seems like he's trying a bit too hard to find something that may not actually be there.  I could probably see certain things on Alice alone, but not really both of them.  Right now though I am completely convinced Smodge is scum, I'll read into the other cases further in a bit.

[Yoshiken]

I'll say now, I'm pretty adamant on voting for either Smodge or Alice today, and I doubt the next 5 hours are gonna change that. Both have been majorly suspicious, have had a number of solid cases presented against them, and there's no particular reason that they couldn't be a scumpair.
The simple case for me now is deciding which one to vote for. Personally, I'd rather vote for Alice on the simple grounds of having more to work with on Smodge. I feel we'll be able to get more discussion from Smodge and more to read tomorrow than we will with Alice. I'm happy to lynch either, but I'd like to make sure we hit whichever one would be best for Town.

[Kilgamayan]

Interesting anti-Alice direction this discussion has taken. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the L-1 shenanigans is worth a ton of votes but Alice has been suspicious for other things so I wouldn't mind him getting lynched. (Which I think I've said before.)

Smodge, why did you say you had presented enough against Yoshi (twice) and yet declare yourself "uncomfortable" with a Yoshi lynch 2 hours later? What changed your mind? And why is a speedy train bad? Tonfa got hit with a speedy train in the middle of Day 1 and look at how he flipped.

[Kilgamayan]

Actually, yeah, let's nip this in the bud now. I don't think Alice getting Yoshi to L-1 and then panicking should be held against him. That part of the day played out thusly:

- Vote count (Yoshi at 2 votes at this time)
- Kiro vote amidst a wall
- Glen vote in a short post
- Alice vote amidst a wall
- Vote count showing Yoshi at 5
- Alice unvote in a panic

I think this would be perfectly legitimate for TownAlice to do. It was far enough removed from a vote count that Alice may have not kept proper track of counting the votes because he was concentrating too hard on writing his own post. Yoshi in particular I want to explain how these L-1 shenanigans are scummy enough to vote for, keeping context in mind.

Now, again, I don't have a problem with an Alice lynch, but I want to make sure people are doing it for the right reasons. I also want to make sure scum can't hide behind crappy reasoning to further whatever ends they may get from an Alice lynch (either a basic mislynch or a bus for town cred).

[Yoshiken]

On it's own, the voting behaviour's not reason to lynch, definitely not. But that combined with low content throughout and the vote switch to Excal... it's definitely suspicious, to say the least. Low-content makes it difficult to get a better read than that, IMO, but low-content shouldn't be a factor at this stage. The fact that it is just makes him seem like a lurker.
And, to be honest, I'm not really one for following the "It'd been a while since a vote count" train of thought. Surely, when you're making a vote, you check how many votes that person's on already, especially if it's a train that's been building up votes - don't want to accidentally quicklynch, right? Seems like it's careless play at best.

I'm somewhat curious, though. Why are you looking for a response from me in particular?

Also, Rat. Where on Earth has Rat gone?

Also, random sidenote... Smashy, what happened to the screenshots? They were fun~

[Hunter Sopko]

I renege on that then, since I missed Yoshi's post regarding that. I jumped the gun a bit in an attempt to riposte Tom, but it still feels to me like he was trying to ward of discussion entirely. I also think that trying to claim that I was bussing Bard is absurd, as there's absolutely no evidence to support that. I was on him early and kept up the line of questioning, and Bard hadn't even really been suspected until Alex and I jumped on him Day 2. But I don't think that I'll be able to get support to look at Tom further, so with deadline looming, I'll save more for tomorrow.

While both Yoshi and Alice have improved their game today, the evidence against both of them has piled up. Honestly, with both Tonfa and Bard out it feels like we've been thrown into another Day 1 situation. I've pressed on Yoshi the whole game, while Alice was a relatively new case I decided to pursue at the beginning of today just to put something else out there in case people got too locked into the Yoshi train to discuss different ideas.

Both of them look bad from their Day 1 actions, with Yoshi coming out scummier as he went from Tonfa to Alex with Bard coming along for the ride. Day 2, they come out about even, with Alice's inaction and a weak vote on Glen and Yoshi still looking like it was a scumhammer though, considering his actions Day 1. Don't have enough to support that though to consider that worse than Alice's D2 stuff.

Kilga summed up pretty much why I've been saying the Alice L-1 thing isn't as convincing as everyone seems to think it is. People seem to be jumping on it like it was water in a desert though, and I guess thats why Yoshi is coming out on top for me.

##Vote: Yoshiken

[Kilgamayan]

I'm somewhat curious, though. Why are you looking for a response from me in particular?

Because you were one of the people that cited it, but also because today's options are basically either you or Alice. I felt that if anyone should convince me to move my vote from you to Alice it should be you who is sprouting an Alice case.

[Carthrat]

I was in BED, geez.

Man I want to keep pushing Mage even though his lynch is looking unpossible today.

Case linking Sopko and Alice together is setting off all kinds of warnings. Don't care if Alice doesn't talk about one guy very much. Both of 'em actually have been quiet throughout the game, and I already know Alice plays that way and haven't had a problem with Sopko there due to quite comprehensive posts when he does make 'em. When you cut through that case it feels mostly like sensationalism more than anything. Going "I'm voting for this guy but not really" doesn't seem like a serious attempt to buy credit via bussing, either.

I gotta run out to uni, should be able to post again in an hour or so.

[Yoshiken]

I wouldn't say today's options are limited to two trains just yet. We've seen already how much things can change...
If others would be happier to follow it through, I'd be content with a Smodge lynch today, of course.

Oh, and Rat, that wasn't a "RAT'S DISAPPEARED HE'S LURKING!", it was just "We could do with Rat's opinions here." =P