[Game Over] Worms Armageddon Mafia

[EvilTom]

Ugh Mage, WHY.

Mage looks so bad. If I were voting based on his gameplay, I'd have stuck with my day 1 vote on him all game.
I'm just SO tempted to join his train. But I'll stick to my guns on Soppy, because that is based on evidence rather than hate and anguish. And I'm still pushing my scumpair theory.

PS. Mage - how am I not the most towny person? I don't mean to ring my own bell, but seriously, are you even paying attention? "Eviltom is towny because he's a lesser version of Kiro" What? Did you miss the last 10 hours of day 3? I'm a lesser Kiro? I don't even know what that means.

Mage is totally Jester or Politician. ;-;

(And yeah this post was kind of pointless - I'm not moving from Soppy and I've already made my case on him but I still need to post, so there.)

[Hunter Sopko]

I figure Tom is kidding, but out of curiosity I checked the list and Jester and Politician are not on the roles list >.>

[Kilgamayan]

Aaaaagh what the hell

Soppy looks better in his defenses + that post Mage pointed out where Soppy fingered every single flipped scum and I agree with the Mage cases that have been presented but I don't see how his most recent post is "flailing" as much as simple overuse of questionable logic and I don't like how smodge didn't drop a vote in his post and hasn't posted since when he promised he'd vote when he got home ffffffff why are the three of you balancing yourselves with each other in my eyes D:

Vote...stays on Soppy until he (or anyone else) can convince me exactly how Mage was "flailing".

[Hunter Sopko]

You don't see overuse of questionable logic + voting smodge first then forgetting to change his vote + an ill-timed, panicked defense as flailing?

[Kiro]

You honestly believe that I hounded Tonfa and sent that last message as some elaborate plan to keep me alive throughout the game as the last scum? Also, about the 'daytalk between us?' What about daytalk between Soppy and Tonfa (if Soppy's scum) during D2, letting Soppy know Tonfa's trying to get himself modkilled, having him try to bus Bard from the beginning?

Yea, that's just me speculating unnecessarily again. But the point that is worth highlighting is that even without daytalk, it should be plainly obvious that if Tonfa could get around to it, he would hammer Excal in self-defense. So if the wagons at least remained a tie, he could avoid being mislynched this way. You staying on Tonfa could be a Townie move, but it ended up not hurting Mafia at all. Food for thought if we analyze your thinking from a Scum's viewpoint. The announcement that you'd stay on Tonfa is just icing on the cake regardless of alignment.

And I unvoted because I needed time to gather my thoughts, and at the time, was equally suspicious of both Yoshi and Alice. (Really, the "why no re-vote" should answer itself. Who was I supposed to vote for? Both of them?)

You could stay on Kilga for consistency. I don't see why you have to unvote first to consider your thoughts when the Kilga wagon was nowhere near lynch. In the end, this is a bit of a null point.

Alice thing - I honestly believe you're reading too much into that. I'm town, I'm a nub, and unless I get lynched, you're not gonna know for certain if that's true or not. So to everyone but scum and me (and the cop if there is one and they've checked me) it's a big case of WIFOM. I could be nubTown, or Alice could have been trying to boost my image.

It's still worth mentioning if I think it's a point that will boost my case. If I want to argue that a now confirmed Scum indirectly hinted about one of his scumbuddies, I will bring it up and let the readers decide. It "can" fit if you look at the context of this game.

Anyways, all of those above replies are on the nitpicky things. The real case on you is a lack of contribution/scumhunting and badly reasoned cases against Kilga. All of that is anti-Town in the first place; I'm just trying to determine if it has crossed the line to Scum play.

---

Soppy is looking scummier to me, though, by way of pointing out every single known scum in one post. This is also the post where he first accuses Bard. And he mentions a certain level of suspicion on everyone who became a train Days 2 and 3.

When you consider he also mentions Townies like Yoshi, your point doesn't mean much. And it's reasonable to think that people worth mentioning could eventually have a train on them.

He also seriously accused Yoshi of me-tooism, and provided Yoshi's jokevote as example.

I noticed that too, it's an ok point against him.

Personally, all of this screams of scummitude. What would be the best way to ensure that, if all else fails, at least one scum will live? To have one scum act completely differently from the others. Which Soppy has been doing. He's been attacking all the scum, which seems a little bit too convenient. (In fact, D2, he's actually harder on Alice than he is D3. D3 being when scum are in danger of being reduced to one left. He also plays a more defensive game in general on D3, and has since been more on the offensive again.) And the scum? They've all been playing rather similar games to each other so far, have they not?

That could be because he's effectively scumhunting as well. Except you could argue he hasn't. He didn't go for Tonfa if I recall correctly. You're not making enough of a distinction on how his attacks on the flipped Scum are "too convenient" at this point in time. Defensive or offensive doesn't seem to matter as much, both Town or Scum can play either way legitly depending on the situation. Name more specific points where it reflects badly on Sopko if you want to use that against him.

---

If you want me to say how Mage is flailing, it looks like because he's over-exaggerating certain points on others or not getting his facts straight. Soppy has not been attacking the other scum as conveniently as he could have. After all, that's why there's a wagon on him now. And the points he's bringing up against Soppy are not really ones that make Soppy more or less scummy imo, it's more IIoA.

[Kilgamayan]

The questionable logic shouldn't be a special factor because he's been doing that all game. The vote thing is bizarre but it's a null tell - what makes scum more likely to forget to vote than town?

The self-defense I don't see as particularly panicked but there is a whole bunch of AtE at the top there I suppose.

Oh, fuck it. I may not agree with your assessment but I can see where it came from.

##Unvote: Hunter Sopko
##Vote: Magetastic

Cut by Kiro, changes little.

[Kilgamayan]

That's L-1, by the way.

[Carthrat]

Seems like the onus is to point out where he isn't flailing, really. The scummiest thing about his response, btw, was not forgetting to vote or anything like that, but how he was arguing that 'as Sopko mentioned scum in his post, he is clearly their buddy'; that's not a point in itself, that's more likely a towntell than anything, and you need to argue why he's scum despite that, not because of it.

[Magetastic]

Roleclaim because I know it's gonna come up: The Holy Hand Grenade, the Bulletproof Townie.

Why are people saying it's scummy I'm admitting to bad play and being new? This might be the lack of sleep talking, but that seems bizarre to me. That's just like Tonfa's case D1 of "LAL = Lynch All Liabilities" Also, why is it that Rat's case against me gets mostly passed over each day, and then Kiro makes a case and people start following suit? (Btw, Soppy, I had assumed Kilga was going to vote me when given the chance, given Kilga's been gunning for my lynch lately) Honestly. What makes today different from yesterday?

As for the Soppy thing. I said that in a rush, trying to get my thoughts down before sleep (or the lack thereof) swallowed them. I needed to check to see if there was any sort of coordination going on with him and, say, Alice. But I have no evidence. Which means I'm back at the drawing board, with no time left, as I have a flight.

Though the post still seems suspicious and hints at extra knowledge, IMO. Especially given how he attacks, no-holds barred, both Alice and Bard as his first votes of both days. That's either really lucky, really skillful, or really scummy. Please at least consider this before/after putting me to the hammer.

[Smodge13]

Sorry i been away, following on from my last post
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg73311#msg73311

Rat never really threw a vote onto Alice despite his comments on her case all of day 3, he has basically been after Mage since day 1 however he did pull his vote off mage to vote for Bard.
Other than the Bard lynch rat really hasn't been part of the lynches to date.

Overall i have a mild  scum reading of rat however not enough to be comefortable with a lynch.

Kiro - mild town read, reading over the posts i can't find anything that stands out, interesting enough every time a train has formed on a scum member Kiro is sitting in the center of that train on the 3rd or 4th votte, the 3rd or 4th being a great place to hide on a town train but on a scum train?

Kilga - has been on every lynch train so far, whether its scum or town but nothing seems to stand out Mild Town read

Soppy - so far has been amongst the first on every lynch train and was amongst the first for both Bard and Alice, both of which his cases seem legitimate, scum this entire game have not shown any inclination to bus each other.
The only thing that really sticks out is his 2nd vote on the Alice train which seemed almost pointless as he was leading in votes already and had claimed bomb, it looks a bit suspicious like scum attempting to jump on a succesful train last minute.

Soppy i only have a mild scum read on but also i am not comefortable with a lynch as it is minor.

Now Back to Mage the topic of today
Mage has had failtastic gameplay since the beginning
Day 1 he ended on the Tonfa train.
Day 2 ended without a single vote sitting on someone pops up at the end of the day with "i would have voted bard"
Day 3 he votes Kilga, then in a later post he unvotes kilga and FoS him, then later votes Kilga yet again

I mentioned i found Mages post at start of today being strange how he comes up with this

To start off the new day, I'd like to point out that night kills so far have been killing off extra suspects, thus eliminating discussion. I think we should be looking for those who have either been pulling out new cases constantly, and/or those that have been stifling discussion in some way.

First something about the NK that doesn't seem accurate at all.
Followed by a we should look at some people, but never names any or presents cases at all

Then we have a vote on me, no case presented or aspects of the case agreed upon
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=3833.msg73417#msg73417
Next post he changes to Soppy?

Soppy is looking scummier to me, though, by way of pointing out every single known scum in one post. This is also the post where he first accuses Bard. And he mentions a certain level of suspicion on everyone who became a train Days 2 and 3. He also seriously accused Yoshi of me-tooism, and provided Yoshi's jokevote as example. Personally, all of this screams of scummitude. What would be the best way to ensure that, if all else fails, at least one scum will live? To have one scum act completely differently from the others. Which Soppy has been doing. He's been attacking all the scum, which seems a little bit too convenient. (In fact, D2, he's actually harder on Alice than he is D3. D3 being when scum are in danger of being reduced to one left. He also plays a more defensive game in general on D3, and has since been more on the offensive again.) And the scum? They've all been playing rather similar games to each other so far, have they not?

Wifom argument, all scum have acted this way then surely the 4th will act the opposite.
Finally we have Mages Roleclaim as bulletproof, now it is likely to be a bulletproof out there as scum did have the 1 shot hitman (however we did have a jailer) but one of the things i have noticed, both Bard and Alice roleclaimed something useful to the town, they didn't claim vanilla.

Of all the players still Alive Mage appears scummiest to me at the moment, Rat/Soppy an equal 2nd for reasons stated above.
I am happy to Hammer Mage but we still have 24 hours to use

So i open a question
If Mage were to flip Town who would you think is scum
If Mage flipped town i would probably lean more towards Rat than soppy as rat has been hitting mage day 1 with tunnel vision and admittedly if mage turned up town it would be a pretty easy lynch for scum to convince people of.

[Kiro]

Mage: It's not necessarily scummy that you're admitting to bad play. It's just the bad play itself is scummy. Tonfa's case was also arguably bad play because he took a back seat to scumhunting when he could have pressed Glen or anyone else more. Looks like you didn't have time to clarify your suspicions on Soppy more before you leave so I can't say much else. What you have as of this moment will have to speak for itself.

Smodge: I tend to take things a day at a time because reading over the content of the person who died at Night sometimes changes my opinions on who's Scum. But evidence wise at this time, probably back on Soppy.

[Laggy]

Votecount

Rat (0):
Glen (0):
Soppy (2): Kilga, Kiro, Tom, Mage
Smodge (1): Soppy, Glen, Rat, Mage
Tom (0):
Mage (4): Kiro, Rat, Soppy, Kilga
Kilga (0):
Kiro (0):

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 4 ends in 25 hours.

[EvilTom]

Hmmph, looks like everyone is set on a Mage lynch. Halfway through the day.

Does holy hand grenade make sense for bulletproof? I'm not that familiar with the game.

[Kiro]

I haven't played Worms in years and didn't play much of it. But hey, Alice's Magic Bullet definitely sounds like a Hitman name when you think about it.

If I kinda recall what I think it was, Holy Hand Grenade was more awesome than Exploding Sheep, which was awesome in itself for destruction.

I'd rather not meta the flavor.

[Smodge13]

Anyone have anything to say/discuss or should we get the day over with?

[Magetastic]

I totally got Deadline wrong by a whole day. Wow. I am out of it.

Just a few things, real quick. 1) The roleclaims they made also had some way they could help clear them/remove the intent to lynch them. Admitting I'm bulletproof not only removes all incentive for scum to try to NK me, but given that I haven't been targeted yet, I have no way to back this up, and claiming bulletproof doesn't really remove any intent to lynch me because, while before being unNKable could have been helpful, they know to not target me, and thus my special ability becomes moot. I may as well be Vanilla at this point.
2) Again: I dropped the Kilga case that first time because I had over-extended and fizzled my brain. I needed time to recover my thoughts. I also admit to the horrible tunnel-vision.
3) Why are people trying to meta flavour when Laggy explicitly says not to?
4) Does nobody care that my train has started (and almost ended) with relatively little/no discussion? It's mostly been "Here's my case, here's my vote" with a dash of response to my defenses when I can get them in. Does nobody care that they've made it incredibly easy for the last scum to train-hop? And it wouldn't look damning at all, either.
5)

I just can't win, can I?

6) I implore you to just give me one more day. One more. If we don't get any scum today, heck, I'll vote for myself tomorrow. Or get myself modkilled. And if you people are still intent on lynching me today, would it be too late to ask for a modkill, so the townies can get on the right track?

[Kilgamayan]

6) I implore you to just give me one more day. One more. If we don't get any scum today, heck, I'll vote for myself tomorrow. Or get myself modkilled. And if you people are still intent on lynching me today, would it be too late to ask for a modkill, so the townies can get on the right track?

Well, there's a vote sealer.

(For the record, THIS sort of thing is what I would call flailing. I guess my definition is a bit closer to a verbal manifestation of Excal's avatar than everyone else's.)

[Hunter Sopko]

Why are people saying it's scummy I'm admitting to bad play and being new?

Nothing wrong to admitting to bad play. People make mistakes during the game. Trying to excuse bad play for because you're new is a very, very bad defense strategy, especially this late in the game. Especially when you're not really doing much to improve your play. LAL also stands for Lynch All Lurkers around these parts.

I totally got Deadline wrong by a whole day. Wow. I am out of it.
4) Does nobody care that my train has started (and almost ended) with relatively little/no discussion? It's mostly been "Here's my case, here's my vote" with a dash of response to my defenses when I can get them in. Does nobody care that they've made it incredibly easy for the last scum to train-hop? And it wouldn't look damning at all, either.
5)

I just can't win, can I?

6) I implore you to just give me one more day. One more. If we don't get any scum today, heck, I'll vote for myself tomorrow. Or get myself modkilled. And if you people are still intent on lynching me today, would it be too late to ask for a modkill, so the townies can get on the right track?

4) We have been discussing it and working with your defenses. It's just that with each defense you instead dig your own grave by acting more and more like a scum caught in a corner.

5) What is this supposed to say/mean? Don't quote things without an explanation.

6) This is just flailing. Why should we not lynch you based on this? Or more specifically, what can you contribute that you have not already done so should we keep you around? Based on your play in the previous days, I'd say nothing. If you're holding something back for tomorrow, then share it now or forever hold your piece. What you're doing is tantamount to begging and it does not help you at all. Neither does saying you'll vote yourself or modkill yourself. That does not help town. EVER.

[Magetastic]

And lynching town doesn't help town ever either. I'm trying to get people to stop hunting me, because I'm not scum. I'm town. And I'd rather that I get mod-killed and allow my mislynch to up-and-vanish than to allow a full day to get wasted, and have not only one town die, but two, thanks to NK. WHAT DOES TOWN GAIN FROM LOSING TWO TOWNIES!?

[/fume]

[Magetastic]

Also, damnit people. How am I supposed to go from being bad at a game to being good at a game, mid-game? I'm still trying to figure out my playstyle. But think of it this way, too: Is the bad play and the bad defense not consistent with my last game? Where I turned up town?

This train on me is progressing too easily, and I'll be damned if it keeps going that way. It gives scum too much of an easy ride. You won't be able to gain anything (at least not enough) tomorrow from my train when I flip town. And another townie will die at night. And then you'll be left with one more day to catch scum before it hits LYLO.

[Laggy]

Mod note:

If every townie could pull the defense of "I'd rather take a modkill so town doesn't waste a lynch on me!" the game would get very obnoxious indeed. Please do not use this line of argument; it is entirely contrary to the spirit of the game and all it does is force me to make it so that modkills will instantly end the day to avoid abuse of it. That is treading on bad water. Modkills are only supposed to be used as a last resort, not as an argumentative tool.

[Kilgamayan]

AtE AtE AtE AtE AtE AtE AtE

Yeah uh you might want to try a different avenue of defending yourself if you want any hope of actually not getting lynched.

[Magetastic]

Duly noted.

Though I firmly maintain my stand on the ease of my train. And I would very much like a Soppy lynch, as he is the only one actively trying to tear apart all my cases and make me look as bad as possible. And now that he's gone after my latest defense, he disappeared.

NinjaSmodge: What's AtE?

[Smodge13]

Ugh, Mage your going about this the wrong way.
Something i learnt quickly playing mafia here, if your town and a train is forming on you naturally do what you can to defend yourself but more importantly search for scum, every vote and every explanation gives more and more clues to who is scum so when your at -1 like this don't beg, continue hunting scum right up until the end, search amongst the cases and the votes as there is definately scum out there and find such a compelling case that proves someone is more scummy than you.

Gaining town cred is generally impossible it is the sort of thing that is circumstantial, every post you type risks making you look more scummy but it can also make others look scummy to, at these points in time the only thing you can do to save yourself is find someone more scummy than you and prove why they're a better lynch.

Anyway i'm off to bed, let when i get back up in 10 or so hours i'll hammer if theres been no development/changes in votes, let me know if anyone has an issue with it.

[Kilgamayan]

AtE = Appeal to Emotion. The idea behind it is that you make people voting for you feel bad about it in the hopes that they'll vote for someone else.