Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Monado Mandala Week 8

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I think that Freya's pdef is actually a mult. Base damage * 0.75%, so she reduces it by 25%.

[Taishyr]

Don't recall having as much a problem with the Holy one as I did with Earth and Water, but. And... 75%. Really. Uh.... ...So she's 4.4x PCHP to physicals? (Or was it supposed to be her defense reduces it -to- 75%?)

EDIT: What Snow said. And... Iunno. I'm likely gonna vote an Andrew pass, I think, but.

[074]

EDIT: I'll also add in that status immunity appliance is going to be useless when half your party is already statused in the Nimufu fight before it goes off. MT healing the status just means Nimufu applies it again before any relevant person gets a turn, and you can't do both at the same time when both are apparently tied to the same person. ST status healing in the fight is useless beyond all reason.

Rise&Shine is not only MT Sleep recovery from Lilka, but immunity to sleep for the rest of the battle...  At least, that's now I remember it working.  Besides, I only need the Misty -> Ocean for the Scabby Z fight, not the Augus/Nimufu one.  Not to mention...  Even though it's WA2 MGR, I remember Lilka taking a substantial amount less than either Ashley or Brad, so I could hype her has having a better chance of not being put to sleep?

Besides, Overdrive.  When do you see it used?

EDIT:  Also, does Wall get full-MT stuff?  I could also argue that since TimeEclipse is classed as Unblockable, it pierces Reflect.  Also, Blue and TimeLord having 5 or more spells equipped means that spells cost 1 less JP to cast, making their staying power MUCH higher.

EDIT2:  The spells I think Lilka needs for this floor are Heal, Flame, Revive, Rise&Shine, Spark, Quick, and possibly Dispel and either Air Screen or Protect.  Having 7 or 8 spells is very feasible by this point, I think.

TimeEclipse being Unblockable doesn't mean it ignores Reflect.  It ignores SaGa shields, which is closer to Evasion.  Therefore, it is ITE, but more than likely reflectable.  (If it ignored Psychic Prison, on the other hand, that might be more of an argument).  And IIRC, Reflect vs. most MT goes as follows: MT hits unreflected targets, reflects off of reflected target to caster.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Also, Reflect is 50 FP. You have to be kidding me if you're going to hype an ability you can't use until about three turns into the fight -assuming Lilka gets three turns to spam her physical in a fight where she gets lynchpinned and killed before she gets a second turn-. Again (and you have to be kidding me if you're going to hype Priest having Reflect at floor fucking two).

[074]

And if WA2 FP is like WA3 FP, it goes to 0 on death.

[Magic Fanatic]

Also, Reflect is 50 FP. You have to be kidding me if you're going to hype an ability you can't use until about three turns into the fight -assuming Lilka gets three turns to spam her physical in a fight where she gets lynchpinned and killed before she gets a second turn-. Again (and you have to be kidding me if you're going to hype Priest having Reflect at floor fucking two).

I NEVER said I was ever using Reflect off Lilka or the FFT Priest.  Heck, I realize that Reflect is pretty much impossible for my team to pull off this early.  When I mentioned Reflect, I meant more like that (possibly) spells I had pierced ENEMY reflect...  What I was hyping for Lilka was DISPEL.

And PsychicPrison is less "Haha take back that spell you just cast" and more "You tried to cast a spell, FAIL AND SUFFER FOR IT."  It's a hard parallel to make with many interp problems.

And just for personal interpretation, if a spell is forced MT, it bypasses Reflect.  I mean, I remember spells like Tornado in FFVIII getting by Reflect, Ultima, Meteo, summons...  Then again, this could just be a case-by-case interpretation of how Reflect works in the Final Fantasy series in general.

[dude789]

Taishyr passes pretty easily. Andrew passes, but the dragoon fight is very close. I think they should be able to make it to the last fight with the Yuris and ditto and that's all they need because Ditto can transform into Nina 4 and bring the ladies back. Unfortunately, I think Magic falls.

Edit: Whoops meant to say Magic.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

WA2 dispel hype

FF4 Reflect bounces Dispel back in-game. And both Dispels in FF4 and WA2 are similarly shit in-game. That hype does not favor you on interps.

[Taishyr]

dude: Wait, does Andrew pass or fall? >_>

[074]

...I seriously hope to god you're not trying to hype Chaos Stream.  Damage on that is so unreliable as to be hilarious, and it's a major JP drain to boot.  Please say you're not trying to hype Chaos Stream.  I'd understand more if you're trying to hype Flashfire, but I'm not sure I see that getting past reflect.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

FlashFire doesn't even give rewards if you end a fight with it (and it's not that accurate to boot). It's basically Black Dragon Grief. And Blue's running entirely out of gas using -that- like six castings in, SaGa resource pools are very shallow in the early game. And god, that's utterly useless on a floor that has nothing but -bosses-.

[074]

Flashflood's the Black Dragon Grief.  Flashfire's the MT damage.

[Random Consonant]

Team Tai passes, Team Magic explodes, from the looks of things, abstain on Team Andrew.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Flashflood's the Black Dragon Grief.  Flashfire's the MT damage.

Isn't that pretty poor damage in addition to being expensive as well?

[074]

Better than Chaos Stream.  Didn't say it was good.

[ThePiggyman]

Alrighty, Tai's team passes easily enough.
Magic's fails, I honestly see him having to use Overdrive twice this floor.

And still dodgy on voting for Andrew's matches due to lack of good Persona 4 knowledge. Abstain.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

* Jo'ou Ranbu also reads up on Magic's Lilka skillset hype.

Um, you do realize that you don't have -that many crests to spare-, right? I don't think Lilka should have more than four or five crest spells on floor 2. You need: Quicken. Heal. Revive. An attack spell (you actually need two in order to hit weaknesses that will let you even get past the first fight, but let's pretend otherwise). If you get five slots, you're having to give up something you can't afford to for Rise & Shine. If you get four, you might as well pack your bags and leave. And keep in mind -this only works if Lilka doesn't get hit by Sleep-. Alternatively, Nimufu can use her MT 3HKO damage instead of sleeping (which turns into 2HKO across the board due to the shitty durability on your end) and now Augus kills two people in his turn even if all the healers are kept on healing duty, because your foresight is awesome and you forgot to pack any sort of MT healing outside Mystic berries, which you can't access turn one. In practice, you should have only one healer anyway because you'll have essentially no resources to spare for that battle. With two people killed and TL almost certainly dead (he can spend his one turn to petrify Nimufu there or TL Augus, it doesn't matter. Whhoever gets a turn next is spreading the sprawling corpses), you're in great shape for taking the reaper's boat.

[Random Consonant]

Just out of curiosity, just how do you see WA2 breaking down in the dungeon?  Because from the sound of things, it looks like you're claiming that Floor 2 ends at Telepath Tower, which strikes me as... well, odd.

Not that I think this really matters, because I think Magic fails even if you give Lilka all the spells he's hyping here, but still, I'm curious.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Just chiming in on the Blue anti-hype here.

Due to the randomness with how SaGa techs are learned, I was pretty sure that Neph had 'standardized' it such that Blue would learn -all- of a skillset after having used it for one floor. Meaning that he should have all of his Realm magic by this floor. It's one of the reasons he's a 4.0, I had assumed. He gets access to 'endgame-level' skills early on, such as Vermillion Sand. It's one of the possible advantages of SaGa Frontier in general. I remember Vermillion Sand sparking -really- early on for Blue and that basically he was my main source of damage until someone finally sparked Rosario Impale.

I think this is important to bring up because even with limited resources, Vermillion Sand is pretty awesome MT damage for this floor and should really help out in that first fight. Booster OHKOing Blue before he can move might still be a problem, but Blue is easing resource woes for TL with VS in that first fight.

Still not entirely convinced that Magic's team passes, but the 'lol no damage hype' does not set a good precedent for future Blue-users.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Problem is that, while Vermillion Sand is good damage for the early-midgame, I find it unreasonable to allow at floor 2, since mastering a magic type doesn't give you the spells automatically - just allows you to -learn- them. That and it's probably a 3PB deal for Blue anyway at this point, and I don't even think it'd OHKO (and hey look, Magic is relying on him for revival too! That's going to end up well). If you're allowing that this early for him, then you also allow things like Megawindblast to the Light Magic users at this point (something that I ... at, personally), and that's bringing those averages up. Blue has always been a late payoff idea in the Dungeon, and his 4.0 cost is something that mostly sprawls from the fact he borderline autowins the Dungeon if he ever reaches floor 7 and beyond.

[Magic Fanatic]

Fine.  I realize that the popular view is still going to have me fail, but I'd like to pass myself irregardless.  Tai passes as well, while Andrew loses.

Fight one is TimeEclipse -> Vermillion Sand'd, with a hint of Spark.
Fight two...  Booster OHKOs Blue, Lilka brings him back, TimeLord casts TimeEclipse, Lucia casts Gale, Priest keeps everyone healed up.  If he decides to OHKO anyone else...  Well, the fight goes on for a while, but I assume Rage'd physicals would actually work at some point.
Fight three...  TimeLeap bypasses counter, Lilka defends, Lucia throws up Status immunity oil, and THEN I lay down the smackdown.
Fight four...  Still a huge timesink, but passable.
Fight five has Overdrive being used, and that's game.

No, I don't really care how shaky it sounds...  But Jo'ou, if you're going to throw who knows how many sledgehammers at me for this, would you care to detail to me how I would've done if I went down the other floor instead?  Nevermind the fact that Blue STARTS the game with Realm magic mastered the gift for Realm magic.  It'd be silly to not have him master it after that long.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

No, I don't really care how shaky it sounds...  But Jo'ou, if you're going to throw who knows how many sledgehammers at me for this, would you care to detail to me how I would've done if I went down the other floor instead?  Nevermind the fact that Blue STARTS the game with Realm magic mastered the gift for Realm magic.  It'd be silly to not have him master it after that long.

He starts with it mastered in-game! He doesn't in the Dungeon due to Neph's ruling on it. Same way that Ramza has jobs mastered early in the dungeon, but can't have them in-game outside grinding, or that Virginia can get any two Golden Mediums before the endgame in-game, but has to get them in a strict order in the dungeon. Dungeon and in-game are still distinct beasts when it comes to what's available and what you get, and it's good to not mix them too deeply. Also, one floor isn't a lot of time, particularly the break between floor 1 and 2. Both are still earlygame, but one is straight out of the gate start and the other is just fresh out of the first couple dungeons.

And... from where I stand... lemme see. The other floor probably wouldn't yield much better results. Lemme break down.

FFT Knight, FFT Archer, FF1 Black Wizard, FF1 White Wizard - Trouble fight #1. Knight and Archer both immune ID and Stone, Knight is fairly durable. You can handle... Black Wizard. You can beat this fight, though, but it'll probably leave you bereft of some equips and resources.
Team Andrew vs. Frog and Crono - Trouble fight #2. Crono and Frog both immune status, so no Stone. Crono is a lot faster than you anyway, and Luminaire MT 2HKOs your party of no MT healing, and you die if you let him get another turn, because he's 3-2ing everybody but Lilka and TL here. Quicken won't do much. Blue can even try to ID Crono, but I honestly doubt he lives that long due to Frog existing to finish Blue off and Crono instadoubling Blue as it stands. Then Crono 3-2s half your party and they're dead. If you spend Overdrive here to live, you die to the next fight.
Team Andrew vs. FF9 Freya, FFT Lancer and FF3 Dragoon - Because Freya gets to cast Luna on your party (perfect MT berserk) and you get horribly outslugged, because your offense with basic physicals does. Not. Exist. You need to petrify her to live, and FF3 Dragoon gets to OHKO anyone he pleases in the meantime with parasitic healing damage.
Team Andrew vs. Gilliam, Oswin and Galleon - You probably would even eke past this fight, although it'd be a pain in the ass. You'd also need TimeEclipse x3 to do it reasonably, and you can't afford those resources.
Team Andrew vs. FF4 DS Cecil and Nina4 - And then, you'd just end up dying the slowest, saddest death ever in here if the Dragoons/CTers didn't manhandle you here. Cecil and Nina4 immune all of your tricks sans TimeLeap (which you wouldn't have the JP to use) and have tons of resources to burn alongside being rather hard to kill to begin with. Any earlygame team without decent offense struggles badly against those two, and yours wouldn't be any different.

Just a last friendly reminder. You can't just ignore how stats and resources fall against you when trying to argue your way through a floor. If you actually care about going somewhere with a team you submit, don't just randomly assemble characters and hope people will be nice or unattentive enough to let it slide. It didn't work the first time, either.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Problem is that, while Vermillion Sand is good damage for the early-midgame, I find it unreasonable to allow at floor 2, since mastering a magic type doesn't give you the spells automatically - just allows you to -learn- them. That and it's probably a 3PB deal for Blue anyway at this point, and I don't even think it'd OHKO (and hey look, Magic is relying on him for revival too! That's going to end up well). If you're allowing that this early for him, then you also allow things like Megawindblast to the Light Magic users at this point (something that I ... at, personally), and that's bringing those averages up. Blue has always been a late payoff idea in the Dungeon, and his 4.0 cost is something that mostly sprawls from the fact he borderline autowins the Dungeon if he ever reaches floor 7 and beyond.

Differing terminology is coming into play here. 'Mastering' a Magic Type could mean two things I realize. You're seeing it as 'getting the Gift for a certain magic type', meaning that Blue doesn't actually learn any of the spells worth using for most of the magic types... I was interpreting it to mean 'having learned all spells of the specific magic type', which certainly pins down his skillset more solidly, which I like. Also, my experience with Blue was generally that he sparked most Gift spells early, so it's a good interpretation of one of his in-game advantages anyway.

Also, Blue hardly auto-wins the Dungeon even after Floor 7. He has lots of good things, but most of his good stuff destroys his resources. And he's still OPF on Overdrive IIRC. Scary if anyone were able to make it that far with a Blue/TL combo, though... >.>;;

Tentative pass to all teams right now.

[Magic Fanatic]

He starts with it mastered in-game! He doesn't in the Dungeon due to Neph's ruling on it.

Yeah, I just asked Neph - the intent was having Blue have storeboughts and the gift on the floor, and then having all the spells in said group on the next floor, as well as a new gift/storebought set.  So, by that, he DOES have VermillionSand by now.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

And, as I said, it... doesn't matter a whole lot, then. Too harsh on Blue's resources, he loses the chance to heal things the third battle in if he goes that route, and this means that you're into the deep, black woods as soon as Lilka dies (Priest earlygame resources off a resurrection spell that can miss and you still need her MP for other healing duties. This is ugly).