Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Monado Mandala Week 8

[Magic Fanatic]

And, as I said, it... doesn't matter a whole lot, then. Too harsh on Blue's resources, he loses the chance to heal things the third battle in if he goes that route, and this means that you're into the deep, black woods as soon as Lilka dies (Priest earlygame resources off a resurrection spell that can miss and you still need her MP for other healing duties. This is ugly).

If it matters at all, with the Crown in Magic that Blue should have from equipping 5+ spells, even though Vermillion Sand is still 7 JP, Starlight Heal is only 1.  Even with the pitiful resources you start him out with, that's enough to get him at least three castings of each.

Even then, Blue's resources are a LOT better than you're making them out to be, and this is a screenshot from the SaGa Frontier LP RIGHT when the LPer first got control of Blue.  If it didn't go up by then, I'd be asking for a new game, since this one would obviously be damaged.

Even if there's something I'm missing in terms of numbers, he should still have around that level of JP for this floor, if not higher.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

So, he gets seven castings of Vermillion Sand+one casting of Heal Light or six castings of Vermillion Sand+seven castings of Heal Light. That's not actually that great. As I said, Vermillion Sand I don't buy as a OHKO to average (or even all that close, since if it's allowed that early, I'm also comparing it to other Mastered magic people), and your other PCs will be busy keeping themselves alive, so you need an average of two castings of it per battle. You're running out of JP halfway through the dungeon then. And this is ignoring the fact that, if Blue has that damage, then he now became the premier lynchpin of the enemies, who will keep killing him over and over again until he runs out of LP. He's so frail that it's a pretty workable strategy, and losing a reviver for an entire floor will suck balls.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Even comparing Vermillion Sand to MegaWindBlast, Blue's INT score is generally going to be better than your other human options in SaGa at this point. And MegaWindBlast is probably the only comparable spell that other humans can even get at this point? Arcane has... Tower, but that's OPB. And Shadow has Shadow Sphere. There's really nothing else comparable in the Magic skillset, and MegaWindBlast is almost always learned later than Blue or Rouge is going to learn VermillionSand. This is even ignoring that most of the other human options don't start with mage-oriented stats.

It's an understandable interp, but I think it's overlooking that the high learning rate on Gift spells early is one of the advantages of Blue/Rouge in-game.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Some advantages just don't translate. The way I streamline Dungeon learning, Blue's learning rates is one of them - or really, many unique, quirky learning methods. I honestly don't give much heed to overlooking one aspect when the more relevant ones (like the fact he can learn and master magic types that no one but very specific chars can, or that he gets magical types no one does) do - that and Blue's learning rate honestly wasn't relevant either, sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's worthless. The RNG is still who decides what you learn in SaGa ultimately, and I see no reason why floor 3 for VS is unreasonable - still fairly early in the game. The characters can cry me a river for not taking into account a very minor and unreliable advantage in a very minor way that suddenly becomes advantageous if you're generous anyway.   

Also, Blue's Int lead comes mostly from his stat fusion with Blue and not so much from his base (although it still is nice). It should be higher than the typical mage's, but not amazingly wtf until late, especially given how he's still early.

[DjinnAndTonic]

The thing is, there aren't a lot of comparable Mages in Blue's scenario. The only other -dedicated- Human Mage in SaGa Frontier is Rouge, and he's not attainable until the Fusion anyway. The Mystics have a few awesome mages, but you can only get... Silence? in Blue's chapter. Blue's other competition among the Humans are Roufas, Meilin, and possibly Annie as Mages. Assuming Blue gathers a full party (15 people) and goes for all the Mages first - Silence, Roufas, Meilin, Annie (trained as a mage), he's still being compared against 11 low-INT Human fighters, Mechs, and Monsters. He's pretty much going to be the best source of magical smash, especially with Vermillion Sand. If the fighters are sparking Rosario Impale this early and the Mecha are fully decked-out with high-end equipment... then Blue's probably still pulling a high 2HKO with Vermillion Sand considering enemy mdef is lower than their pdef at this stage.

If you take out MegaWindBlast and Rosario Impale, it's almost certainly OHKO-level here.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The thing is, there aren't a lot of comparable Mages in Blue's scenario.

Irrelevant to me. Full-cast averages exist (and I honestly default to those anyway), and in a case like SaGa (where there is a huge, constantly mutating cast in any given scenario) I enforce them even harder, because I -need- some sort of streamlining, and with huge, constantly mutating, unreliable casts that have varying windows of existence and availability due to the game's sandbox nature, there has to be a grounding.

[DjinnAndTonic]

The thing is, there aren't a lot of comparable Mages in Blue's scenario.

Irrelevant to me. Full-cast averages exist (and I honestly default to those anyway), and in a case like SaGa (where there is a huge, constantly mutating cast in any given scenario) I enforce them even harder, because I -need- some sort of streamlining, and with huge, constantly mutating, unreliable casts that have varying windows of existence and availability due to the game's sandbox nature, there has to be a grounding.

So... all SaGa damage is average all the time? Sure, seems fair... >.>;;

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Um, no? Full-cast doesn't mean I'm not taking into account what they have. It just means that Blue isn't the only person with mastered magic that I will take into account. Just that, if he gets that magic access, then so does, say, White Rose, or MeiLing, or Nusakan (all of which have magic-type spells, MeiLing and WR getting MWB). Thus, they also get their best damage spells, which get taken into the average. The fighters will lower it (and the monsters, because even allowing their swaps and skills doesn't save the damage), but it should keep Vermillion Sand from being lolohko given that there are plenty of mages in SaGa, and earlygame magic does have a hefty advantage on physicals in the earlygame.

[Magic Fanatic]

Um, no? Full-cast doesn't mean I'm not taking into account what they have. It just means that Blue isn't the only person with mastered magic that I will take into account. Just that, if he gets that magic access, then so does, say, White Rose, or MeiLing, or Nusakan (all of which have magic-type spells, MeiLing and WR getting MWB). Thus, they also get their best damage spells, which get taken into the average. The fighters will lower it (and the monsters, because even allowing their swaps and skills doesn't save the damage), but it should keep Vermillion Sand from being lolohko given that there are plenty of mages in SaGa, and earlygame magic does have a hefty advantage on physicals in the earlygame.

Let's, for a moment, assume that all characters master everything at the same time.  While MeiLing and WR are getting the gift for Light Magic at the exact same time as Blue, no one has MegaWindBlast yet.  Therefore, what do we have to compare VermillionSand to?  FlashFire?  SunRay?  Yeah.

Going by what I think you're saying, these characters learn their spells faster than Blue does.  Tell me that seems completely fair to Blue.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Going by what I think you're saying, these characters learn their spells faster than Blue does.  Tell me that seems completely fair to Blue.

They can do so in-game, and it may not even need special breeding. You do an insanely short sidequest for Light gift that can be done without battles -at basically any time in the game-, and then you still have to fight until the spells are learned, which happens at whatever pace the game feels like. I'm not willing to give something as minute as SaGa spell learning rate an advantage. I honestly find both learning MegaWindBlast - or any high-level spell, even Blue - entirely unreasonable at floor 2 and I'm not even bothering to give that the time of my mind, but if I were going that route, I'd definitely lean that way. Blue's advantage due to Vermillion Sand is both short-lived when it happens, possible to not happen and emulatable by multiple characters, and I'm not going to give him an edge by something that may as well be a virtue of the RNG.

[Magic Fanatic]

Going by what I think you're saying, these characters learn their spells faster than Blue does.  Tell me that seems completely fair to Blue.

They can do so in-game, and it may not even need special breeding. You do an insanely short sidequest for Light gift that can be done without battles -at basically any time in the game-, and then you still have to fight until the spells are learned, which happens at whatever pace the game feels like. I'm not willing to give something as minute as SaGa spell learning rate an advantage. I honestly find both learning MegaWindBlast - or any high-level spell, even Blue - entirely unreasonable at floor 2 and I'm not even bothering to give that the time of my mind, but if I were going that route, I'd definitely lean that way. Blue's advantage due to Vermillion Sand is both short-lived when it happens, possible to not happen and emulatable by multiple characters, and I'm not going to give him an edge by something that may as well be a virtue of the RNG.

Only Blue when going after Runes would be able to pick up Nusukan early enough to consider the gift for Light Magic as a Floor 1 Gift, and this is assuming that Blue would get the gift at the exact same time.  I don't remember Mei-Ling joining anyone except Riki (who, by force of the game, CAN'T LEAVE SCRAP until you get the second ring - the first being from the Elder), and White Rose has the same problem of joining Emelia really late for that being an option, or having to go through Asellus's intro first.  In either case, it's blocked off from her for a long time (and White Rose does not have the gift for Light Magic), so saying they get the Light Magic gift in the equivalent of Floor 1 is laughable.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

That's the same reason why I consider Blue getting Vermillion Sand in the equivalent of Floor 1 to be laughable as well. As far as I see, Blue still needs to grind to get Vermillion Sand and get quests going (tangentially, Mei-ling can join you with no strings attached in the earlygame in half the quests), and so would the other mages. Saying that Blue gets to enjoy raping an average for three floors while everyone else sucks on their thumbs due to a minor RNG blessing is egregious to me. And keep in mind, I don't take the view I just posted there in that sense (because yes, it is incredibly stupid! But hyping SaGa RNG is stupid by nature). I force Blue to wait for his Masteries and spells like everybody else would, which seems fairest.

[DjinnAndTonic]

White Rose does have the Gift for Light Magic, by the way. She's not available in Blue's quest at all, though... >.>;;

Nusakan -is- available, so that's one more decent mage that I forgot about. Though he doesn't start with any Magic Gifts apart from Mystic. He -does- start with some Rune spells, though, none of which are offense-related. Roufas starts with Mind magic, though none of that is offensive. Silence only starts with Mystic magic.

Meirin/MeiLing -is- available in Blue's quest and starts with Light Magic, so it's not a far-fetched assumption that she's pulling roughly the same damage as Blue at this point. But Nusakan, Silence, Roufas, and maybe Annie would have to wait until they could actually get the Light Gift to start grinding MWB, while Blue/MeiLing have been working on VS/MWB for 'a whole floor' already. There's some definite advantage to -starting- with the Gift rather than having to wait until you've been both -recruited- AND taken to the Light Gift Quest... Not to mention that to even -get- these mages (apart from MeiLing), you have to brave some dungeon areas (Nusakan) or actually start a different magic quest (Silence/Roufas/Annie).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

There's some definite advantage to -starting- with the Gift rather than having to wait until you've been both -recruited- AND taken to the Light Gift Quest...

Problem is it's not much of one. The most relevant part to the spell learning is getting the quests and the growth (only Light is really relevant for damage anyway, because the other spell types are horrible about damage), and while Blue is grinding to get his own spells, even if he starts with the Gifts, he's getting other people to raise and he is dividing his attention with other spell types. On average, the time he learns Vermillion Sand is usually around when your other PCs are learning their midgame techs, which start not entirely sucking, and that's with the gift. I'm fine with saying he has an early damage edge (which he does). However, I'm not fine with Blue getting MT overkill to average while the rest of the cast utterly fails at damage when the gap is usually not that big outside of unusual luck.

[Magic Fanatic]

I force Blue to wait for his Masteries and spells like everybody else would, which seems fairest.

If anything, I think Lute is the only one with time free enough to get Light Magic on an equivalent Floor 1...  But on the flipside to that, so could Blue.  If I remember correctly, Lute just runs away from home, and you get to do whatever the hell one pleases.  Blue just gets dropped off in Devin, and gets told to go get magic.

Blue would get the same amount of time to master Realm as Lute would with Light, and in a workable about of dungeon trekking equal to the time it takes to get through the intro of any non-Lute character, I wouldn't say that Blue learns VermillionSand at the same rate as Lute getting MegaWindBlast.  Blue's chances of getting it are going to be ~3? times higher, meaning it would be fairly easy to assume that Blue's higher Int compared to other characters would give him an advantage in learning spells faster.  Yes, hyping an RNG is stupid.  But Blue does have raw stats to back up those learning rates.

So, going by that, you're basically have Blue sit on his ass and drinking Tea, while other characters actually complete their intros and go STRAIGHT into learning magic when Blue decides to stop being lazy and do the same.

White Rose does have the Gift for Light Magic, by the way. She's not available in Blue's quest at all, though... >.>;;

She does?  That's new info to me...  Stat topic said she started with a whole bunch of Light spells, but since it didn't list MegaWindBlast or LightSword, I has assumed she didn't have the gift. (And Meeple is usually EXTREMELY thorough about putting information like that, since LightSword might actually be a viable option for her in a duel.)  I know she has the gift for Mystic Magic, though, as all Mystics do.

Meirin/MeiLing -is- available in Blue's quest and starts with Light Magic, so it's not a far-fetched assumption that she's pulling roughly the same damage as Blue at this point. But Nusakan, Silence, Roufas, and maybe Annie would have to wait until they could actually get the Light Gift to start grinding MWB, while Blue/MeiLing have been working on VS/MWB for 'a whole floor' already. There's some definite advantage to -starting- with the Gift rather than having to wait until you've been both -recruited- AND taken to the Light Gift Quest... Not to mention that to even -get- these mages (apart from MeiLing), you have to brave some dungeon areas (Nusakan) or actually start a different magic quest (Silence/Roufas/Annie).

That's another "Collect with Blue, get the same gift as Blue and grow at the same rate as Blue" scenario, isn't it?

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm not saying MT Overkill, personally, though it's a possible interp for only looking at Blue's Quest since the number of good characters is more limited in his story.

However, getting VS on this floor, even scaling other SaGa characters to this learning rate (where MeiLing and other pre-Gifted PCs get their best skills in their given gifts, while non-starting-Gift'ed characters get storeboughts for any one gift) should still put him in the high 2HKO to average field here due to a low number of characters with starting Gifts (and most of the starting Gifts are pretty lame skillsets... MIND magic >.>;; ).

High 2HKO damage for Blue means that TL or Lilka could chime in with some decent attack magic (TL does have Phantasm Shot for some better-than-his-physical damage that doesn't cost much or rely on random variance much) to finish off some average opponents.

Re: White Rose and Light Magic Gift.
I was pretty sure that she starts with the Light Magic Gift in Emelia's scenario, but that she doesn't have it for Asellus' scenario. Probably because *spoilers* you don't get to keep WR for Asellus' final boss?

Now I can't remember for sure anymore, dammit... Could be the other way around? And the FAQs for SaGaF aren't much help...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

To simplify to Magic: to me, the dungeon progression of the mage characters for their spells follows a single pattern. One floor, they get the storebought. The floor after they get the storebought, the Mastery. The floor -after they get the Mastery-, the spells. I generally give skillset abilities and the like a bit later to compensate for the fact I see everybody starting with what they'd get at the last fight of the floor, because having to figure out which spells and skills people learned from one fight to another is a trainwreck - is even moreso with SaGa, whose skills are learned entirely at random. Is this arbitrary? Sure! But it's the most elegant way to handle skill learning overall in the dungeon that I know. I just don't give Blue Vermillion Sand in floor 2 because his learning rate and the in-game Realm Magic mastery that he doesn't get in the dungeon from the get-go, to me, aren't enough to make it floor 2, which can be as little as 30 minutes into SaGa, given how short a story is (and I tended to get Blue's Vermillion Sand about 1/3 in, which qualifies as floor 3 to me. Most other Gifted magic users in other playthroughs got their relevant mastery spells at roughly the same point in their respective quests), and that's a point where averages in general also start stabilizing and the slider that gives magic the upper hand begins to wane. Don't see what's wrong with this. 

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

High 2HKO damage for Blue means that TL or Lilka could chime in with some decent attack magic (TL does have Phantasm Shot for some better-than-his-physical damage that doesn't cost much or rely on random variance much)

I wouldn't call Lilka and TL damage decent by any stretch of their imagination. >_> If Blue is dealing high 2HKO damage with Vermillion Sand, Phantasm Shot is going to be roughly half-average damage at best, and Lilka's damage is around that figure as well. The second problem is that Blue is still horrendously slow and frail (all the fights in the floor can at least 2HKO him. The ones that fail to OHKO him have multiple people, who -do- get him killed by focusing), thus very easy to gangbang. Giving him Vermillion Sand means that he -is- going to be the enemies' preferred lynchpin, so Magic is spending a lot of time reviving Blue over and over. Which he can't do forever, because running out of LP on Blue means he's out for the count for the rest of the floor. In reality, I'm actually thinking Blue having Vermillion Sand makes this easier to interpret -against- Magic, ironically, because it gives the enemies an easy target to pile against, and Team Magic is too lacking in both offensive and defensive MT to be able to spread its task-handling far.

EDIT: And in the meanwhile, everybody else is spending their limited resources to try and keep their heads above water. That's a lot of pressure to deal with. It normally wouldn't be, but in a team that's ultimately lacking in all departments due to poor synergy, things that don't look like threats suddenly get scary.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I don't know... Caignazzo's busy storing up water and Milon/Baigan aren't exactly speedy... or durable. Blue w/ 2HKO damage speeds up the 'finish off Caignazzo before he wreaks havoc' strategy. Once he's out of the way, most of the pressure is gone.

Booster's probably the biggest threat and takes up the most resources as TL can't really TimeLeap AND has to save Overdrive for the boss...

In general, I know that my interps tend to be a little on the generous side, just as Snow's tend to be on the stricter side. I'm more interested in Blue's general Dungeon use being nerfed by Snow's interp, though... which seems to run directly against how Neph -stated- Blue works in the Dungeon...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I don't know... Caignazzo's busy storing up water and Milon/Baigan aren't exactly speedy... or durable. Blue w/ 2HKO damage speeds up the 'finish off Caignazzo before he wreaks havoc' strategy. Once he's out of the way, most of the pressure is gone.

Kainazzo instadoubles Blue. The rest of the team isn't able to pick up on the slack.

Booster's probably the biggest threat and takes up the most resources as TL can't really TimeLeap AND has to save Overdrive for the boss...

TL needing to save Overdrive dooms him against Scarmy-Z, you hit a surprising nail right there. If they use magic on Scarm, perfect MT Silence is a gg (they absolutely can't 2HKO him, Scarmy Z is actually rather durable, about 2x PC HP under my scaling and you know how harsh I tend to be on bosses. Priest is the only one who can target Scarm with healing in the entire party, and it's not enough due to horribly shallow resources). If they go with their awful physicals hitting his good defense, he starts slowing them, and he starts getting doubles on the party - and he has a 2HKO physical (73% PC HP. That's actually a pretty good 2HKO) that is an easy OHKO on Blue. The team's only chance against Scarmy Z is spamming Time Leap, which obviously drains him badly, and he also has to do that against Kary, because she incapacitates any PC she wants with her turns due to Hold+durability concerns.

In general, I know that my interps tend to be a little on the generous side, just as Snow's tend to be on the stricter side. I'm more interested in Blue's general Dungeon use being nerfed by Snow's interp, though... which seems to run directly against how Neph -stated- Blue works in the Dungeon...

It's give-and-take, and I doubt Neph feels strongly on the matter as well. The way Neph states, I see it as taken assuming one sees spells and skills learned midfloor, and its balance shifts it taken literally with a different interp on when people get skills. It's a personal balance measure, and you're free to disagree with it. However, it becomes unbalanced within the guidelines I set to myself giving things earlier -and- allowing them from the get-go. Blue is hardly the only person hit by it, Relm also weeps tears of blood over only getting spells by floor 4 and Bartz/Ramza aren't fond of this either.

[Magic Fanatic]

I don't know... Caignazzo's busy storing up water and Milon/Baigan aren't exactly speedy... or durable. Blue w/ 2HKO damage speeds up the 'finish off Caignazzo before he wreaks havoc' strategy. Once he's out of the way, most of the pressure is gone.

Kainazzo instadoubles Blue. The rest of the team isn't able to pick up on the slack.

Can't TL just TimeTwister a Double Spark off Lilka for that Lightning weakness?  There's also Lucia and Priest there, who can heal/buff/revive as necessary (and I doubt that Kainazzo doubles them).  Cagnazzo's Big Wave deals less damage the more damage he takes (according to the stat topic), so if he's hit with a lot of damage, I doubt he's dealing a lot of damage. (since his physical does AT BEST 30% PC Average HP.  That's not killing anyone.)

Booster's probably the biggest threat and takes up the most resources as TL can't really TimeLeap AND has to save Overdrive for the boss...

TL needing to save Overdrive dooms him against Scarmy-Z, you hit a surprising nail right there. If they use magic on Scarm, perfect MT Silence is a gg (they absolutely can't 2HKO him. Priest is the only one who can target Scarm with healing in the entire party, and it's not enough due to horribly shallow resources). If they go with their awful physicals, he starts slowing them, and he starts getting doubles on the party. His only chance against Scarmy Z is spamming Time Leap, which obviously drains him badly, and he also has to do that against Kary, because she incapacitates any PC she wants with her turns due to Hold+durability concerns.

Well, like I said earlier, the team waits for Lucia to throw out a Misty -> Ocean, thereby removing the threat of the Silence.  The threat of Lucia doing that keeps him focused on Lucia, lest he take an incredible magical beat-down.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I don't know... Caignazzo's busy storing up water and Milon/Baigan aren't exactly speedy... or durable. Blue w/ 2HKO damage speeds up the 'finish off Caignazzo before he wreaks havoc' strategy. Once he's out of the way, most of the pressure is gone.

Kainazzo instadoubles Blue. The rest of the team isn't able to pick up on the slack.

Can't TL just TimeTwister a Double Spark off Lilka for that Lightning weakness?  There's also Lucia and Priest there, who can heal/buff/revive as necessary (and I doubt that Kainazzo doubles them).  Cagnazzo's Big Wave deals less damage the more damage he takes (according to the stat topic), so if he's hit with a lot of damage, I doubt he's dealing a lot of damage. (since his physical does AT BEST 30% PC Average HP.  That's not killing anyone.)

I suspect Kainazzo nearly doubles average speed, which can be problematic. TL can mitigate those issues, yes... but this ignores the fact that Kai can just forfeit the waves instead and focus on Blue for the stalling. Then Milon and Baigan finish the job and you start having to waste time and resources. Your early fights will be all about trying to stall you down so you can't finish the floor.

Booster's probably the biggest threat and takes up the most resources as TL can't really TimeLeap AND has to save Overdrive for the boss...

TL needing to save Overdrive dooms him against Scarmy-Z, you hit a surprising nail right there. If they use magic on Scarm, perfect MT Silence is a gg (they absolutely can't 2HKO him. Priest is the only one who can target Scarm with healing in the entire party, and it's not enough due to horribly shallow resources). If they go with their awful physicals, he starts slowing them, and he starts getting doubles on the party. His only chance against Scarmy Z is spamming Time Leap, which obviously drains him badly, and he also has to do that against Kary, because she incapacitates any PC she wants with her turns due to Hold+durability concerns.

Well, like I said earlier, the team waits for Lucia to throw out a Misty -> Ocean, thereby removing the threat of the Silence.  The threat of Lucia doing that keeps him focused on Lucia, lest he take an incredible magical beat-down.

It's floor 2. Does Lucia get the status immunity oiling this early? She seems to only get Misty and Ocean together at Chapter 6 - which... hmmm. That might be viable (although, from the looks of it, I'd rule as floor 3 myself). However, the status immunity only lasts one turn, so Scarmy can afford to just pound on Blue. And she needs to reapply those oils constantly (and there's the recharge to take into account. Ricardo when using songs usually had a half-speed delay, and SH:C has the same CTB mechanics. If Scarmiglione doubles Lucia, you're in serious trouble) - not to mention the oils don't affect Lucia herself, so if he Gases while the status immunity upkeep is going, she's unable to use the Oils. Past that, your incredible magical beatdown is still very poor damage and Scarmy OHKOs most of your team with his physical. Given the durability on him, odds are that he'll live long enough to Gas twice and clean shop (because your accuracy will suck beyond being unable to cast spells, your physical damage doesn't even register on the curves and he has good defenses). Looks bad.

[Magic Fanatic]

I suspect Kainazzo nearly doubles average speed, which can be problematic. TL can mitigate those issues, yes... but this ignores the fact that Kai can just forfeit the waves instead and focus on Blue for the stalling. Then Milon and Baigan finish the job and you start having to waste time and resources. Your early fights will be all about trying to stall you down so you can't finish the floor.

Stat topic notes he's just above average speed, not that fast.  Stat topic also notes that Cagnazzo has nothing past the physical and Big Wave, he'll be going before Lucia/Priest (who can just heal him back up to speed), and the damage my team is causing to them.  Milon sucks, Cagnazzo is durable (but his damage turns pitiful pretty fast), so Baigan's the only threatening one there again.

It's floor 2. Does Lucia get the status immunity oiling this early? She seems to only get Misty and Ocean together at Chapter 6 - which... hmmm. That might be viable (although, from the looks of it, I'd rule as floor 3 myself). However, the status immunity only lasts one turn, so Scarmy can afford to just pound on Blue. And she needs to reapply those oils constantly (and there's the recharge to take into account. Ricardo when using songs usually had a half-speed delay, and SH:C has the same CTB mechanics. If Scarmiglione doubles Lucia, you're in serious trouble) - not to mention the oils don't affect Lucia herself, so if he Gases while the status immunity upkeep is going, she's unable to use the Oils. Past that, your incredible magical beatdown is still very poor damage and Scarmy OHKOs most of your team with his physical. Given the durability on him, odds are that he'll live long enough to Gas twice and clean shop (because your accuracy will suck beyond being unable to cast spells, your physical damage doesn't even register on the curves and he has good defenses). Looks bad.

Carla gives Lucia the Misty and Ocean Oils as she joins the party in Florence, so you can't have her in your party without at least those two.  Arguable, since she can put out this, Priest can hit up Scabby with a Cure (or aim it a Blue, if necessary)...  TimeLord has TimeTwister'd either Lilka (for Flame) or Blue (for VermillionSand), whichever does more damage.  That should deal enough damage where Scabby does Gas and it only hits Lucia...  And then TimeLord can TimeTwister either Lilka or Blue, probably Lilka, to finish the guy off (since the counter shouldn't go off until the end of her turn).

EDIT:  And while Lucia can do nothing about the sleep except hope for a soft tap from the FFT Priest, Bell Bracelets (storebought in Florence) make her immune to Seal/Silence, making the main scary part of the Gas counter obsolete.  Shell Bracelets make poison not an issue, and...  Uh, who cares about Blind on Lucia?

[Clear Tranquil]

@ Snow with her MP pool Lucia's support isn't all that expensive in general apart from her end game (ultimate - Aurora combinations) and some of the of the Moon X combos (ironically those are her money moves in game though) Oh and oh no I'm not hyping Lucia as having MP Regen yet no (Russia arc is roughly L20+ average to me - at least according to the old file I rummaged the last time this came up - so definite F3 under my dungeon level interps)

**

For future references peeps -

t = Turn -

Ocean + Misty   | Immediate small HP recovery, 20 MP
+ Grass   | Small HP recovery, 1t, 25 MP
        + Night   | Medium HP recovery, 1t, 30 MP
        + Moon    | Small HP recovery, 2t, 30 MP
        + Shining | Medium HP recovery, 2t, 35 MP
        + Sunrise | Immediate medium HP recovery, 25 MP
        + Aurora  | Large HP recovery, 2t, 70 MP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Misty  + Ocean   | Immune to status abnormalities, 1t, 20 MP
        + Grass   | Immune to ring abnormalities, 2t, 25 MP
        + Night   | Immune to status abnormalities, 3t, 30 MP
        + Moon    | Immune to status abnormalities, 2t, 25 MP
        + Shining | Immune to ring abnormalities, 1t, 20 MP
        + Sunrise | Immune to ring abnormalities, 3t, 30 MP
        + Aurora  | Immune to ring&status abnormalities, 3t, 60 MP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grass  + Ocean   | Medium P-DEF increase, 3t, 25 MP
        + Misty   | Medium S-DEF increase, 3t, 25 MP
        + Night   | Small S-DEF increase, 3t, 20 MP
        + Moon    | Small P-DEF increase, 3t, 20 MP
        + Shining | Large P-DEF increase, 3t, 30 MP
        + Sunrise | Large S-DEF increase, 3t, 30 MP
        + Aurora  | Large P-DEF & S-DEF increase, 3t, 60 MP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night  + Ocean   | Small MP recovery, 1t, 25 MP
        + Misty   | Small MP recovery, 2t, 30 MP
        + Grass   | Immediate small MP recovery, 20 MP
        + Moon    | Medium MP recovery, 2t, 35 MP
        + Shining | Immediate medium MP recovery, 25 MP
        + Sunrise | Medium MP recovery, 1t, 30 MP
        + Aurora  | Large MP recovery, 2t, 70 MP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moon+ Ocean   | Strike effect raised by 1,5 times, 1t, 60 MP
        + Misty   | EVA doubled, 1t, 25 MP
        + Grass   | Critical rate raised by 1,5 times, 1t, 30 MP
        + Night   | Critical rate becomes 100%, 1t, 100 MP
        + Shining | Critical rate doubled, 1t, 25 MP
        + Sunrise | EVA raised by 1,5 times, 1t, 20 MP
        + Aurora  | Third Key effect, 1t, 750 MP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shining + Ocean   | Large P-ATK increase, 3t, 30 MP
        + Misty   | Small S-ATK increase, 3t, 20 MP
        + Grass   | Large S-ATK increase, 3t, 30 MP
        + Night   | Small P-ATK increase, 3t, 20 MP
        + Moon    | Medium P-ATK increase, 3t, 25 MP
        + Sunrise | Medium S-ATK increase, 3t, 25 MP
        + Aurora  | Large P-ATK & S-ATK increase, 3t, 60 MP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sunrise + Ocean   | Immediate small SP recovery, 20 MP
        + Misty   | Small SP recovery, 2t, 30 MP
        + Grass   | Medium SP recovery, 2t, 35 MP
        + Night   | Small SP recovery, 1t, 25 MP
        + Moon    | Immediate medium SP recovery, 25 MP
        + Shining | Medium SP recovery, 1t, 30 MP
        + Aurora  | Large SP recovery, 2t, 70 MP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aurora  + Ocean   | Medium HP, small MP&SP recovery, 2t, 70 MP
        + Misty   | Small HP&MP&SP recovery, immune to abnormalities, 2t, 70 MP
        + Grass   | Small HP&MP&SP recovery, med. P-DEF & S-DEF inc. 2t, 70 MP
        + Night   | Medium MP, small HP&SP recovery, 2t, 70 MP
        + Moon    | Small HP&MP&SP recovery, Third Key effect, 2t, 900 MP
        + Shining | Small HP&MP&SP recovery, med. P-ATK & S-ATK inc. 2t, 70 MP
        + Sunrise | Medium SP, small HP&MP recovery, 2t, 70 MP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I know this list is hueg liek X Box but it is more relevant to the dungeon than the DL variant. Might be worth having on hand.

[superaielman]

Team Taishyr | Kyogre, Maya, Garnet, Kyra (MT), FFT Priest
[Floor 2a]
Team Taishyr vs. Milon, Baigan and Kainazzo (FF4 SNES)
Team Taishyr vs. Booster
Team Taishyr vs. Scarmiglione-Z (FF4 DS)
Team Taishyr vs. Kary
Team Taishyr vs. Augus and Nimufu- Kyogre in the early game shatters the universe, period. (I used him there mostly to check for the duengon, and the results are not pretty.) Rest of the team is fairly quick and Tai has several revivers.

Team Magic | Blue, Timelord, Lilka, Lucia, FFT Priest
[Floor 2a]
[Blue: Realm (Mastered) Light (Storebought)]
Team Magic vs. Milon, Baigan and Kainazzo (FF4 SNES)- This fight's a joke. OH NO BAIGAN DAMAGE WE'RE ALL DOOMED *Vermillion sand, the other team -explodes-*. Kainazzo's durability is awful and he has a nasty elemental weakness that Lilka can exploit. Milon is an utter non factor. TL uses a time leap on Baigan to prevent reflect. Lilka can easily control the damage on this floor. Also, Vermillion sand is learned extremely early by Blue, like floor 1 early. Haha to it being a midgame pickup.
Team Magic vs. Booster- Time Eclipse ruins Booster's speed. Booster has evil damage but it's all limit, which this team can easily avoid. Lilka handles healing and they smash past a limit without any problems or serious resource draining.
Team Magic vs. Scarmiglione-Z (FF4 DS)- Scarm can be damaged by healing magic, which doesn't trigger counters. Scarm's ST beatdowns aren't nearly enough without his counters in play.
Team Magic vs. Kary- ST physicals. No.
Team Magic vs. Augus and Nimufu- Overdrive. Nimufu does not live to see a turn and TL busts speed, or failing that dumps his spare damage on Augus. This floor seemed pretty easy in all honesty.


Team Andrew | Yuri1, Yuri2, Chie, Yukiko, Ditto (Love Love)
[Floor 2b]
Team Andrew vs. FFT Knight, FFT Archer, FF1 Black Wizard, FF1 White Wizard- FF1 generics are gender neutral to me in this format. Mages get pasted, fight's easy to manage.
Team Andrew vs. Frog and Crono- Yuris are both physically durable, so no sweat here. Crono has to die but that's easily arranged, Frog can do nothing by himself.
Team Andrew vs. FF9 Freya, FFT Lancer and FF3 Dragoon- Kneejerking Chie/Yuris as faster than Freya. Should be enough.
Team Andrew vs. Gilliam, Oswin and Galleon- Magic doubles+weakness. This is ugly.
Team Andrew vs. FF4 DS Cecil and Nina4- Think they can just beat the other team down in time