Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Monado Mandala Week 9

[Nephrite]

Can Lulu be MP drained:

Which is highly dubious given that SH MP draining doesn't limit the enemy's ability to cast magic at all and is only there to restore Yuri's own MP.

Tentatively saying Andrew doesn't pass. Lots of elements running around+That Suikoden fight is pretty nasty with 3 people who can kill things in one hit in some manner.

Counter-point: Garan's Mind Assault.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

To be fair, Garnet -doesn't- have decent speed

Blatantly not true. Garnet is clearly above average speed, which means she's outspeeding at least half of Andy's party. Also, I'm shocked you can say the Geddoe/Hugo/Luc fight isn't problematic. Hugo's WoS is crazy fast and accurate and is disabling Yuri1 stat (SH can't block Sleep ever). Then Geddoe OHKOs Yuri2 with Hammer of Raijin (it's faster than Yuri2) and the only person to get a turn before Luc drops a Funeral Wind on Yukiko for death shenanigans is... Chie, who is at her very worst right now for damage, and can't OHKO Luc even before the Love-Love damage nerf. Since S3 Sleep doesn't run out until the person afflicted by it is hit, um, the opposition has -all the time in the world, and Ditto's most threatening action would be... copying Hugo to emulate WoS, but Hugo himself is faster than Ditto first turn with WoS, so Wind of Sleep on Ditto again = no more problems.

Man, I didn't realize how goddamned -evil- for a floor 3 team the Suikoden 3 fight was. You might want to tone it down a little, Neph.

Can Lulu be MP drained:

Which is highly dubious given that SH MP draining doesn't limit the enemy's ability to cast magic at all and is only there to restore Yuri's own MP.

Tentatively saying Andrew doesn't pass. Lots of elements running around+That Suikoden fight is pretty nasty with 3 people who can kill things in one hit in some manner.

Counter-point: Garan's Mind Assault.

Ah, but that's only on the enemy side. What I think Dhyer means is that Yuri's -own- Mind Assault doesn't do that against enemies.

[Bardiche]

Pass on Team Magic and Team Taishyr. Kneejerking a few things in Magic's favour, but hey, I like the trainwreck. Guilty pleasures.

Abstain on Andrew.

[Magic Fanatic]

Team Magic vs. Alma, Ramza and Dycedarg- Magic has to have overdrive here for Dycedarg to have a chance. Alma's Mbarrier means Dycedarg gets a turn. His equip breaks do decent damage and ruin valuable gear. He can also go straight damage and have that unpleasant status side effect. Odds are he is silencing at least one PC with Lightning Stab for starters. ouch.

After doing some calculating in chat, Alma wouldn't actually get that MBarrier off.  Assuming it takes her 10 CTs to get her first turn, it's still another 4 CTs to pull off the MBarrier, making the first casting slower than even Dycedarg himself. (Dycedarg is 9 Speed, Alma is effectively 11 to a 10 average, and the 4 extra CTs from MBarrier itself make her wait 14 CTs, or basically throwing her at 71.4% average speed for that turn 1 MBarrier).  TimeLord may not be as fast as his endgame form would have him in comparison, but he's not THAT slow.

[Bardiche]

It was argued that it's "unfair" to hold FFT characters to those charge times, though, especially since you need to spend (a) turn(s) to reach them. Of course, that makes almost all buffs initiative, and makes all physical fighters of the FFT variant absolute slowpokes since they take a few turns to reach your team. >_>;

[074]

Pass on Team Taishyr.  Magic dies a horrible FFT-related death.

Abstain on Andrew.

[ThePiggyman]

Alright, after seeing arguments...

Team Taishyr passes.
Team Magic... probably fails, on second thought. Georg is getting that turn, and he's bringing the pain.

STILL can't vote on Team Andrew, but it looks like a fail from what I know. ;p

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Team Magic vs. Alma, Ramza and Dycedarg- Magic has to have overdrive here for Dycedarg to have a chance. Alma's Mbarrier means Dycedarg gets a turn. His equip breaks do decent damage and ruin valuable gear. He can also go straight damage and have that unpleasant status side effect. Odds are he is silencing at least one PC with Lightning Stab for starters. ouch.

After doing some calculating in chat, Alma wouldn't actually get that MBarrier off.  Assuming it takes her 10 CTs to get her first turn, it's still another 4 CTs to pull off the MBarrier, making the first casting slower than even Dycedarg himself. (Dycedarg is 9 Speed, Alma is effectively 11 to a 10 average, and the 4 extra CTs from MBarrier itself make her wait 14 CTs, or basically throwing her at 71.4% average speed for that turn 1 MBarrier).  TimeLord may not be as fast as his endgame form would have him in comparison, but he's not THAT slow.

That's an entirely fair point! However, this also means that, if you're taking the charge of MBarrier into account, you're also taking the charge of FFT Priest's Shell into account in the Georg/Tengaar match (since your team surviving Tengaar's one turn relies heavily on Shell, and Blue is slower than Tengaar. He needs to get a turn to Psychic Prison)! Since Priest is barely faster than Tengaar (who is faster than Lucia and Blue) and Shell is slower than her, this just means that Tengaar gets a turn to Earthquake and OHKO your entire team. Whoops.

As an aside to this, TL -is- immune to Earthquake thanks to Jetboots.

[Magic Fanatic]

That's an entirely fair point! However, this also means that, if you're taking the charge of MBarrier into account, you're also taking the charge of FFT Priest's Shell into account in the Georg/Tengaar match (since your team surviving Tengaar's one turn relies heavily on Shell, and Blue is slower than Tengaar. He needs to get a turn to Psychic Prison)! Since Priest is barely faster than Tengaar (who is faster than Lucia and Blue) and Shell is slower than her, this just means that Tengaar gets a turn to Earthquake and OHKO your entire team. Whoops.

Actually, this just means I don't have to have two Overdrives on the floor.  That way, I can just Overdrive, TimeLeap the enemy team, TimeTwister my own Team, GlassShield up my team, and then have TimeLord use MagicHeal from an absorbtion, I dunno.  Since Georg and Tengaar are missing that first turn, Lilka gets a double Quick, Lucia sets up an MP/JP recovery Oil, Blue hits the enemy team with PsychicPrison, and I'm really golden until the Full Heal.

EDIT:  Or hell, IF you see TimeLord as faster, all he needs is GlassShield, since both would get cut to ribbons five times, I think.  Or, unless he'd need GlassShield another time this floor (this is the only spot I can really see), TimeEclipse does the job quite well, what with Georg and Tengaar having no petrify immunity.  Georg, on average, has...  116% average speed?  Would that be faster than TimeLord right now?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

That's an entirely fair point! However, this also means that, if you're taking the charge of MBarrier into account, you're also taking the charge of FFT Priest's Shell into account in the Georg/Tengaar match (since your team surviving Tengaar's one turn relies heavily on Shell, and Blue is slower than Tengaar. He needs to get a turn to Psychic Prison)! Since Priest is barely faster than Tengaar (who is faster than Lucia and Blue) and Shell is slower than her, this just means that Tengaar gets a turn to Earthquake and OHKO your entire team. Whoops.

Actually, this just means I don't have to have two Overdrives on the floor.  That way, I can just Overdrive, TimeLeap the enemy team, TimeTwister my own Team, GlassShield up my team, and then have TimeLord use MagicHeal from an absorbtion, I dunno.  Since Georg and Tengaar are missing that first turn, Lilka gets a double Quick, Lucia sets up an MP/JP recovery Oil, Blue hits the enemy team with PsychicPrison, and I'm really golden until the Full Heal.

For starters, you've just described a course of action that requires you -to use OverDrive on the Georg/Tengaar match- AND LETS THEM GET A TURN REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU DO, when we've gone over the fact that getting them let one single turn more or less unhinged gets you killed immediately. If you're saying that doesn't require OD, you're merrily ignoring that the actions you're describing take -multiple turns-, and there's nothing I can logically see that enables you to do that other than your wishful thinking of a magical double-turn or pretending OD doesn't drain your resources -and- gives TL an immediate double-turn. Which, beyond being incredibly dumb, what the hell is he doing with that turn? Using a basic physical that tinks off even below average defense given he can do nothing else without MP? OD depletes your JP and WP whether you used all of it during it or not, and if you petrify Georg/Tengaar, you're not getting the time to heal the MP with Lucia for the next fight. You know, the place where the FFTers either kill you immediately or get your ass statused (i.e. you don't have a lot of leeway. You have to heal TL's JP or opt for status immunity. Not viable to do both at the same time) if you don't TimeLeap the hell out of them (and guess what TL can't do without JP. They ). Finally, you're also ignoring how Tengaar has about 90% PC HPdamage to average durability with Earthquake and gets a turn before Blue even after Quicken (hooray, 50% boost to his Kongol-level speed, now he's uh averagish!? That doesn't let him outpace average to slightly above average speed), and your team awesomely hovers in the 80% PC HP area. Lucia doesn't even have the defensive buffs yet to boot. Also, MagicHeal at floor 3? Try floor 5. And I'd kneejerk against Tengaar giving a flying fuck to GlassShield anyway (which you can't easily reapply!), MT magical damage against something that doesn't even get all ST physical stuff in-game? Also, it also looks like that your course of actI'm not even sure how the hell TimeLeap interacts with OverDrive, but that sounds incredibly stupid and I'd say "no, you don't get to do that shit and get away with it".

EDIT:  Or hell, IF you see TimeLord as faster, all he needs is GlassShield, since both would get cut to ribbons five times, I think.  Or, unless he'd need GlassShield another time this floor (this is the only spot I can really see), TimeEclipse does the job quite well, what with Georg and Tengaar having no petrify immunity.

I already went over how hyping TL as faster than Georg at this juncture is a strike of impressive generosity at best and downright desperate at worst. I sorta stopped caring by the time you started hyping getting triple-turns via magical want of not getting eaten. Your arguments for winning have essentially devolved to "I just want to win, ignore the facts and let me win ;_________________;" ever since your first team got eaten by the FFT mages a few months back. They didn't get any better, and neither did your team design.

[Magic Fanatic]

Alright...  Overdrive is giving TimeLord free turns, TimeLeap is making sure they're not getting their first turn, GlassShield makes Georg cry even IF he gets a turn (which he won't), and I probably don't even need the TimeTwister in there, but it seems to help for Lilka's quick, and since Georg and Tengaar aren't getting their first turn (if you see that), Lilka can cast Quick without fear, and Blue has a free pass for PsychicPrison.

They're getting turns, sure.  Not like they can actually DO anything with them while I heal up.

Also, Georg may feel fast in game, but he really isn't as fast as you're painting him out to be, and Tengaar really isn't above-average speed - stat topic says she's dead-average.  She's just average.  Just how fast is Georg, and how fast is TimeLord, each considering their respective averages?

EDIT:  Also, would Tengaar survive 5 GlassShield hits, all at once?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Tengaar's in the "average to slightly above average" range I mentioned. Dhyer noted that his Tengaar had the speed RNG hurting her a bit, and her growth in the stat is fine. And sure, Georg is just above average - however, he's in the same speed range as Lilka, possibly a bit higher (110-115% speed. And before you start hyping Lilka as godlike speed because of Tim and no Kanon, Tai -did- calc her endgame speed in an average without Kanon and Marivel - it ends up as roughly the same as her DL-legal speed. Since WA2 growths are constant throughout, it's pretty safe to say that this is a poor hyping idea. Not that I -even bother-. I use throughout ratios, accounting for growth and levels instead of "ZOMG JANE IS IN THE TEAM AT THIS POINT EVERYBODY'S A SLUG FOR THE FLOOR~"), and I don't think it's reasonable to see even speed-twinked TL as past the 105% range. I'm not the one overrating Georg's speed, you're the one taking imaginary number shuffles that fit in late midgame parties for TL, trying to pass them as early midgame and hoping nobody notices it.

[superaielman]

In fairness to the above Snow, TL does immune Earthquake with Jet boots. Don't know if that matters at fucking all though.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

In fairness to the above Snow, TL does immune Earthquake with Jet boots. Don't know if that matters at fucking all though.

Jet Boots are even reasonably obtainable at floor 3, though? I only remember obtaining those via high-level Junk Shop abuse (not that it matters much to me, TL is sooooooo capable of handling this floor by himself with a dead party, what with the lack of damage and limited resources and no healing).

[superaielman]

Yes. They're like 600 credits and storebought from the beginning.  Edit: I'll second the call about the nerf of ST floor 3. Some of these fights are really, really cruel. EDIT: FFT Priest should survive Earthquake as well, if it comes to that. Georg physical is something else *KABOOM*, but she does have MDefup working for her.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

She gets the MDef Up skill by floor 3 to you? I figured it wouldn't be floor 3 when she's already beelining for Holy on your breakdown (I'm not sure I'd see her with MDef Up even without that beelining. With... yeah). Her Faith is pretty awful for mdef purposes, and the HP is below average to boot. She needs that to survive. Not to mention there's the issue that the team's unlikely to outheal the first Earthquake (they revive at awful HP, Lilka has 0 FP and can't use her healing after being revived, Blue's healing is shit and Priest's isn't that awesome with Cure 2 either, IIRC). Priest would have to pre-emptively cast Raise to boot in that case if they want to get back up on their feet.

[dude789]

I'm not sure I'd allow glass shield to hit five times. That seems a bit off.

[Magic Fanatic]

I'm not sure I'd allow glass shield to hit five times. That seems a bit off.

Well, it IS five GlassShield counters going off at once.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm not sure if I'd even allow the counters to hit, I tend to think MT physicals ignore range and Glass Shield's counters only work against melee.

[Magic Fanatic]

Georg's physical IS melee.  Now, if it was something like Cathari's physical, yeah, but...  Yeah, Georg's is in the ST-to-all-characters-at-once-physical situation.

[Bardiche]

Isn't Overdrive initiative anyway?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Georg's physical IS melee.  Now, if it was something like Cathari's physical, yeah, but...  Yeah, Georg's is in the ST-to-all-characters-at-once-physical situation.

Yes, but special circumstances make his physical MT. Hell, I don't even know about MT physicals in SaGa that trigger Glass Shield (it's one of the reasons I tend to -mock- the fuck out of Glass Shield hype, way too much shit just lols at it entirely, and if there's an interp call that needs made regarding it, I generally take a stance against GS, because its in-game failure doesn't make me inclined to be generous on it when the game itself wasn't). I'm still quite skeptical of OD+TimeLeap even working properly anyway, and you're still relying on stalling on a fight where you get fried as soon as things get a crack on you. super's analysis honestly was a bit generous to you anyhow.

[superaielman]

Everything physical triggers glass shield IIRC. In the case of this floor, a physical that's normally ST but gets MTed I would see triggering melee style counters.  The damage sucks but it 5xed is decent enough at that point.

Glass shield is largely DL/dungeon useless, though it does have some value against fighters.

[Magic Fanatic]

Yes, but special circumstances make his physical MT. Hell, I don't even know about MT physicals in SaGa that trigger Glass Shield (it's one of the reasons I tend to -mock- the fuck out of Glass Shield hype, way too much shit just lols at it entirely). I'm still quite skeptical of OD+TimeLeap even working properly anyway, and you're still relying on stalling on a fight where you get fried as soon as things get a crack on you. super's analysis honestly was a bit generous to you anyhow.

Fists and Swords set off the counter, Guns don't get countered, Magic doesn't get countered.  In the case of the last two, the damage just gets absorbed by the GlassShield...  And Georg can be considered to be Swords, and even though it's MT, it's still Melee.

All they need is that first turn, since even a single MT'd Quick is going to make TimeLord faster than Georg and Tengaar, and Lucia's getting at least one MP-recovery oil off, so I can stall a LOT longer than you're giving me credit for, even if you don't respect GlassShield.

By the way, Super, is there anything else that's keeping your vote against me that we could address?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Lucia can toss a recovery oil while dead?