Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Monado Mandala Week 9

[Yoshiken]

Hmm... I just realised something with that post. I was thinking the girls could defend to null the One More, and thus Lulu would only get one turn... But P4 Defend goes after one hit, doesn't it? Well, that kinda sucks for that team, seeing as I saw that as the main method for them getting through that fight. Changing vote~

[Unoriginal]

Tai passes, Magic fails.  Abstain on Andy.

[Magic Fanatic]

Team Magic vs. Georg (S5) and Tengaar - TimeLord is faster than George, and throws up GlassShield.  Georg attacks, and there's a GlassShield counter x5, killing Tengaar in the process.  Lilka casts quick, and now no one on the team has to fear Georg.

You... do understand how saga mechanics work, right? Glass shield only breaks on the target who attacks it. If you want to say that the MT floor makes it trigger the counter five times, cool. But you're out of your  mind if you are going to say that it triggers said counters on everyone. Glass shield doesn't -ever- hit anyone who isn't at short range (One of the many reasons it sucks and sucks bad) and Tengaar's a long ranged fighter to boot. No to Glass shield's awful damage killing, even 5xed. It's pretty bad early on, and it's damage is suffering here since TL's stats aren't as good as they are endgame.

I had just assumed that since it was an ST'd counter, the rules of the floor would MT it, and the entire enemy team would suffer because of it.

If TL -is- faster he is using time leap regardless, so I don't know what you're arguing here. But he's not.  Mystic stats aren't as good relatively in the early/mid game as they are late game, absorbs aren't as strong overall.

Point, I dunno why I said GlassShield now.  I was probably still tired.

Your best bet for the boss fight is Delayorder. This isn't as strong as Time Eclipse's speed down since it hits MDef (So largely useless) but it does have first strike.  It just doesn't do enough, as Mbarrier offsets the slowdown effect and Alma's turn is right on the heels of TL's at worst. Once Mbarrier goes up it probably won't have any kind of impact thanks to the innate defenses of Alma/Dycedarg plus shell.  Delay order sucks, etc.

Well, if TimeLord is still faster, he uses Fascination, not DelayOrder.  I know that Charm is a nasty status, and that'd result in me getting that MBarrier, and possibly Yell.  If she goes for the Ribbon to block that, I don't see how she has an argument to be as fast as TimeLord, and I can just have the rest of my characters buff speed first round to make sure that TimeLord remains faster.

[superaielman]

Well, if TimeLord is still faster, he uses Fascination, not DelayOrder.  I know that Charm is a nasty status, and that'd result in me getting that MBarrier, and possibly Yell.  If she goes for the Ribbon to block that, I don't see how she has an argument to be as fast as TimeLord, and I can just have the rest of my characters buff speed first round to make sure that TimeLord remains faster.

Fascination sucks and has massive issues hitting Alma or Ramza thanks to magic evasion. And Alma at 11 speed is pretty much faster than TL to me right now, without a ribbon it's not at all questionable.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Um, doesn't Alma -immune- Fascination with her default setup anyway? Not to mention Fascination is really fucking inaccurate anyway.

Also, checking out FFT speed mechanics, I don't think Blue even goes before MBarrier -after- Quicken -anyway-, he needs Gale too. Alma is at 110 CT when she gets a turn. At that point, Blue is roughly at 67 clockticks (kneejerking his speed as 67% average feels solid here. He just picked Fists, he's not getting the stat boosts from it yet - this I talked to Neph about, and he agreed to it as well - and both his base and his growth on it as a mage is beyond awful. He gets like not much over 30 at -endgame-? I think Laggy had a Blue at 26 speed lategame or something, it's horrible).

It takes 4CT for MBarrier to resolve, Lilka goes at roughly the same time as Alma (both are around 110% average speed, and both would have roughly 11 FFT speed. I think Lilka might actually be a bit below 110%, but doubt it). Quicken raises Blue to average at best (probably not even that much), so now he gets 9 clockticks - or 10, if you take Auto-Haste into the averages, which I don't like honestly.  Since charge-time CTs resolve -before- clocktick gains for characters, MBarrier's fourth clocktick resolves before Blue's fourth clocktick for a turn, and it goes off more or less regardless of what you see going on unless you're hyping Blue as a speed god, and that's pretty bad form. Lowering Alma's speed won't cut it, speed-busting doesn't affect CTs. TimeLeap on someone faster won't work. It'll reset her turn-getting CT, sure, but saying it cancels her spell when she -already had her turn- is uh. Charges and turns are entirely separate deals, and you can get turns -before a charge resolves- to boot if you wanted to divorce them any further. Psychic Prison first turn won't cut it there, and if Ramza used Scream, odds are Dycedarg is going before Blue anyway due to the headway he had on Blue (hence the absolute need for TimeLeap). Without that, equipment breaking kicks in and now the party is in deep. Um yeah. I don't like the idea of Gale and Quicken stacking either. Where is the headway going here? The minute TL fails a TimeLeap, the team is dead.

[Magic Fanatic]

Well, if TimeLord is still faster, he uses Fascination, not DelayOrder.  I know that Charm is a nasty status, and that'd result in me getting that MBarrier, and possibly Yell.  If she goes for the Ribbon to block that, I don't see how she has an argument to be as fast as TimeLord, and I can just have the rest of my characters buff speed first round to make sure that TimeLord remains faster.

Fascination sucks and has massive issues hitting Alma or Ramza thanks to magic evasion. And Alma at 11 speed is pretty much faster than TL to me right now, without a ribbon it's not at all questionable.

Really now?  I would've thought that an 80% Hit Rate that checks a different stat apart from other status would be pretty good.

Um, doesn't Alma -immune- Fascination with her default setup anyway? Not to mention Fascination is really fucking inaccurate anyway.

She doesn't with her default set-up, and see above about the accuracy.

[superaielman]

Really now?  I would've thought that an 80% Hit Rate that checks a different stat apart from other status would be pretty good.

Alma and Dycedarg immune it outright, all three also have heavy MEvasion setups.

She doesn't with her default set-up, and see above about the accuracy.

Ribbon.

[Magic Fanatic]

Really now?  I would've thought that an 80% Hit Rate that checks a different stat apart from other status would be pretty good.

Alma and Dycedarg immune it outright, all three also have heavy MEvasion setups.

Dycedarg...  Yeah, I'll not argue against that.  Ramza's makes me consider throwing it down to turn 2/turn 3, but Alma's can still be considered turn 1, at the very least.

She doesn't with her default set-up, and see above about the accuracy.

Ribbon.

That's not the default.  The Thief Hat was stated as her Default, and there's even this note attached:

Equip note:
Alma has access to the Ribbon. This offers only 10 HP (90 less than Thief Hat, and 2 less Speed), but makes Alma completely immune to all status, including Instant Death.

That means her 11 Speed has 2 coming from said Thief Hat, so if she opts for the Ribbon, she loses the speed argument.

[superaielman]

Dycedarg...  Yeah, I'll not argue against that.  Ramza's makes me consider throwing it down to turn 2/turn 3, but Alma's can still be considered turn 1, at the very least.

She has magic defense up and a feather mantle. The odds of landing a status through that on the first turn are pretty low.  TL is using time leap and hitting everyone or losing; nothing else is worth the time.

That means her 11 Speed has 2 coming from said Thief Hat, so if she opts for the Ribbon, she loses the speed argument.

Thief Hat Alma is almost certainly faster than endgame TimeLord. Not endgame TimeLord is slower and is struggling to try and outspeed 11 speed Alma and Ramza.  I've said this more than once already.

[Magic Fanatic]

Dycedarg...  Yeah, I'll not argue against that.  Ramza's makes me consider throwing it down to turn 2/turn 3, but Alma's can still be considered turn 1, at the very least.

She has magic defense up and a feather mantle. The odds of landing a status through that on the first turn are pretty low.  TL is using time leap and hitting everyone or losing; nothing else is worth the time.

Does Magic Defense Up matter if the status in question doesn't technically target the standard Magic Defense?  I'd also say that lacking the actual stat that would defend against SaGa Charm, I'd take it as 100% minus the MEvade value, since that's technically what it could be taken against.

That means her 11 Speed has 2 coming from said Thief Hat, so if she opts for the Ribbon, she loses the speed argument.

Thief Hat Alma is almost certainly faster than endgame TimeLord. Not endgame TimeLord is slower and is struggling to try and outspeed 11 speed Alma and Ramza.  I've said this more than once already.

You brought up Alma having the Ribbon as her default equipment and basically still having 11 Speed.  I was just setting the facts straight - if she doesn't go for the Ribbon, she's getting Charmed, and I'll eventually have MBarrier.  If she DOES go for the Ribbon, Ramza's the only one faster than TimeLord at first, and it's a losing battle from there for team FFT.

Also, I may not even need OD on the Team vs. Georg + Tengaar fight if Georg doesn't OHKO TimeLord and at least two other people first (remember, his crit rate is only 49%, and he needs to get past TimeLord and Blue shields - he needs to crit turn 1 AND get by those).

[Random Consonant]

Thief Hat Alma is 12 Speed.  Alma's default setup involves the Flash Hat, I'm assuming, and is 11 Speed.

[Magic Fanatic]

Thief Hat Alma is 12 Speed.  Alma's default setup involves the Flash Hat, I'm assuming, and is 11 Speed.

If THAT'S the case, someone needs to fix the stat topic, since the numbers at that point are pretty darn confusing for non-main PCs.

I know Alma's a guest, but does she join long enough to change her equipment in-game, anyway?  It's a pertinent question to my interpretations...


EDIT:  Wait, wait, wait...  I just thought...  This floor relies a lot on if Georg can OHKO TimeLord.  If he can't, then TimeLord uses Fascination on Georg and Tengaar, getting those two to kill each other.  Then, for the next floor, the FFTers can only block Charm OR Petrify.  That goes just as smoothly.  From there, I'd still have Overdrive left over for the last fight on the team.

TimeLord can also get MagicHeal from the (Rank 3) Whip Jellies.  Yaay.

[Clear Tranquil]

Hmm... I just realised something with that post. I was thinking the girls could defend to null the One More, and thus Lulu would only get one turn...

Fair enough. Yeah doesn't happen though. I think.

But P4 Defend goes after one hit, doesn't it? Well, that kinda sucks for that team, seeing as I saw that as the main method for them getting through that fight.

*doesn't remember* =D

 

Changing vote~

*nods*

Final votes-

Team Tai vs dungeon
Dungeon vs Andrew, Magic - Sorry guys but your teams really are under a lot of pressure and there is a lot of valid arguments here against them. Definitely interesting picks though (yay Lucia!) and Love Love Ditto was an interesting concept (+yay Chie!) ^_^ Lucia respect was enough for me to give Magic the first two floors but here it just boils down to lol Lucia solos (because she's the only character on the team that I really know) No. Seriously isn't happening.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Dycedarg...  Yeah, I'll not argue against that.  Ramza's makes me consider throwing it down to turn 2/turn 3, but Alma's can still be considered turn 1, at the very least.

She has magic defense up and a feather mantle. The odds of landing a status through that on the first turn are pretty low.  TL is using time leap and hitting everyone or losing; nothing else is worth the time.

Does Magic Defense Up matter if the status in question doesn't technically target the standard Magic Defense?  I'd also say that lacking the actual stat that would defend against SaGa Charm, I'd take it as 100% minus the MEvade value, since that's technically what it could be taken against.

You mean you take a SaGa status as 100% when it struggles to hit 50% against enemies in-game and you ignore a perfectly valid - and very clearly so in-game - status-checking stat for the sake of having a straw to grasp? You convinced me, totally changing my vote now.

Also, I may not even need OD on the Team vs. Georg + Tengaar fight if Georg doesn't OHKO TimeLord and at least two other people first (remember, his crit rate is only 49%, and he needs to get past TimeLord and Blue shields - he needs to crit turn 1 AND get by those).

He only needs one of a crit or a glowing strike, for starters. His average damage per turn hovers in the 80% PC HP area, and on average he's hitting that threshold. And if you're going to hype random low-end chances, then on the reverse token, since both SaGa speed and Suikoden speed have random variance, the RNG could dislike your team and Tengaar could manage to get the drop on TL after Georg fails the crit and finish it off with a physical too, bringing your already low chances back down.

La la la no flaming.

[Random Consonant]

If THAT'S the case, someone needs to fix the stat topic, since the numbers at that point are pretty darn confusing for non-main PCs.

I know Alma's a guest, but does she join long enough to change her equipment in-game, anyway?  It's a pertinent question to my interpretations...

Or you could've simply read further into the stat topic to see where those numbers are coming from.  And if you don't allow Alma (or temps in general) to change her equips, that's perfectly fine.

[Magic Fanatic]

You mean you take a SaGa status as 100% when it struggles to hit 50% against enemies in-game and you ignore a perfectly valid - and very clearly so in-game - status-checking stat for the sake of having a straw to grasp? You convinced me, totally changing my vote now.

The stat topic said that it was 80%.  Also, I was merely arguing that in reference to the fact that it doesn't check the stat that pretty much all the other status checked (PSY, where Fascination checks CHA).  If it's going somewhere else, I merely thought that a different stat it checks requires a slightly different method of checking it.

He only needs one of a crit or a glowing strike, for starters. His average damage per turn hovers in the 80% PC HP area, and on average he's hitting that threshold. And if you're going to hype random low-end chances, then on the reverse token, since both SaGa speed and Suikoden speed have random variance, the RNG could dislike your team and Tengaar could manage to get the drop on TL after Georg fails the crit and finish it off with a physical too, bringing your already low chances back down.

La la la no flaming.

Both the crit and the glowing strike each happen on their own check, less than 50%.  I could try hyping the ExcelShield, but...  Eh, probably only allowed a ShellShield.  That could at least throw a kink into some of the plans, at least.  Maybe WA2 defend, as well?

Also, what is Tengaar's damage with her physical?  The stat topic really has nothing to say about it.


[/quote]

If THAT'S the case, someone needs to fix the stat topic, since the numbers at that point are pretty darn confusing for non-main PCs.

I know Alma's a guest, but does she join long enough to change her equipment in-game, anyway?  It's a pertinent question to my interpretations...

Or you could've simply read further into the stat topic to see where those numbers are coming from.  And if you don't allow Alma (or temps in general) to change her equips, that's perfectly fine.

Well, I do allow temps that are in one's party long enough to have their equipment modified to be able to have that done - this mostly means I don't allow Delita to change equips, unless he wants a selection of C1 stuff in his Squire form, and Gaff can, though I'm not sure if I limit his equipment options or not - probably to early C2 stuff...  However, I am inquisitive as to what other characters would have this allowance/restriction in the game, not having played it the full way myself.

EDIT:  I might like to ask what changed so drastically between floors 2 and 3 to make TimeLord so extremely slower compared to the last floor.

EDIT2:

Can Lulu be MP drained:

Which is highly dubious given that SH MP draining doesn't limit the enemy's ability to cast magic at all and is only there to restore Yuri's own MP.

Tentatively saying Andrew doesn't pass. Lots of elements running around+That Suikoden fight is pretty nasty with 3 people who can kill things in one hit in some manner.

Counter-point: Garan's Mind Assault.

Ah, but that's only on the enemy side. What I think Dhyer means is that Yuri's -own- Mind Assault doesn't do that against enemies.

This compared to the fact that even if an enemy casts a spell, their MP doesn't go down?  I'd seriously like to consider that Yuri's Mind Assault is less "doesn't really effect enemy/target MP" and more "enemies in SH2 (and SH3, by extension) have 0 MP cost for their own spells."  SH3 proved that the same spell can cost different things for different characters (Stellars, Shania's MP-reducing fetishes), so what's to say that all enemies don't have a skill or whatever that is MP Cost = 0?