Season 54, Week 4

[OblivionKnight]

To be fair, I don't think it would be right to have ranked her in Heavy (Alys isn't there...right?  And Alys deals with non-PCs a lot better)

The big thing with the cast is the brutal equipment options, and I don't think we realized just how brutal they could be, even after we knew what they did >_>  

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

super: he borders on enough that he's a safer bet being on Heavy than Middle, honestly. I generally go with the "overrank a little when in doubt" mindset, which makes insanity strings like FE finalist floods and the current Kanji rampage a bit less likely. I'm honestly thinking I undersold Yukiko as well, though.

EDIT:

To be fair, I don't think it would be right to have ranked her in Heavy (Alys isn't there...right?  And Alys deals with non-PCs a lot better)

Alys deals with non-ID vulnerables about as well as Naoto does (i.e. not, but she has -some- weirdass tricks that makes some matches worth thinking about), and Alys was the person who began the whole "for the love of god don't undersell instant death" thing by champing Middle way back and upgrading to Heavy. Both are at least 4.0 material to me, if that says anything.

[OblivionKnight]

I do go by the opposite myself - let them win their way up!

Mmm...Kanji can correct a lot of his issues, and he's...freakishly durable.  Moreso than Ness.  No healing, but he does have excellent, boostable damage.  Still generally slow, and if he corrects for that, he loses some durability.  Still.  Might really be more of a Heavy than Middle...but he is arguable enough.

Yukiko and Teddie are clearly Middles, even if on the high end.  Yukiko's equip draw...might let her eke out Heavy with the evasion, but...eh, high accuracy ice ruins her badly.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Alys is Heavy, and has generally done decently when tested in board tournaments and the like. I remember a rant by Fenrir about how Alys was not only obviously in the division, but good there, because "win if you get a turn against ID vulnerable (which is most)" + "goes before most people" is a pretty hard combination to beat, certainly worthy of the second highest division. He's entirely correct and I don't know why people kneejerk otherwise. People like Jean can go on a good run in Middle, and Jean lacks the speed to make the package truly dangerous.

Alys may be better against bosses than Naoto, but I don't think either wins Heavy matches against the ID immune so it's moot? And Naoto is better against the ID vulnerable (Geno beats Alys).

Not really a big deal, despite some stupidity, she did end up in her proper division. The complaints are more due to the fact that I really, really hate Endure. I don't expect any sympathy for this since it's pretty arbitrary, but just sayin'. ^_^


EDIT:

I do go by the opposite myself - let them win their way up!

That just creates annoying floods. We saw it with FE, we are seeing it now. We're likely about to have 3 of the 8 finalists from one game (one with a below average vote draw at that). Even despite my distaste for Endure, I think this is pretty obviously not a good thing.

[Clear Tranquil]

I don't think I allow said brutal equips. Not sure how that changes things in general or not though.

(for example it took me like around ten battles for those darn Cloud Pots and their rare drops)

[superaielman]

I'll just say that Kanji really was a borderline Snow and I ranked him as such.

That just creates annoying floods. We saw it with FE, we are seeing it now. We're likely about to have 3 of the 8 finalists from one game (one with a below average vote draw at that). Even despite my distaste for Endure, I think this is pretty obviously not a good thing.

Naoto and Yukiko aren't really champ level fighters. Yukiko lucked into facing not a single good fighter who can damage her thanks to Adell, Naoto's been covered.

[OblivionKnight]

To be fair, I never expected you to go for the Endure effect, Elf >_>  Granted, now you need to play the game!  That way you can have a full opinion on it!  YES!  HOW CAN YOU HATE IT SO!??!

Also, with regards to winning their way up...eh.  If they are very borderline, I tend to assume they're not good enough for the higher division, and should win their way up.  How I've always done it.  Remind me if I'm wrong, but in wrestling, if you're close to the next weight level, you still go in the lower one, correct?  (I know, not the perfect example, but it's the way I think of it).

*shrugs*  Winning a championship and proving yourself is much more activating than getting stuck in a division and getting mauled.  If you make it up there and get mauled after winning in a lower division, at least you know you can do it.  It's less depressing that way.  I'm sure Lyndis felt infinitely more confident in herself after the Middle championship.  I'm all for decreasing the amount of antidepressants RPG characters use.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm sure Lyndis felt infinitely more confident in herself after the Middle championship.  I'm all for decreasing the amount of antidepressants RPG characters use.

What about the Middles she mauled, then? Don't you think they got depressed when they found out they were getting into battles they couldn't win!? For every underranked dueller that avoids the clinical treatment, there are four others who will be bludgeoned into it!

(That logic really makes me smile, by the way. The logic treatment from wrestling you apply makes sense, by the way. The DL functions differently enough that it's best to follow the reverse, though.)

[OblivionKnight]

Less so them getting depressed than them just getting pissed off that "The Man" rigged their fights.  We like to keep conspiracy theories going strong, here.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Aren't conspiracy theorists highly mentally unstable anyway?

(Sorry for the derailment!)

[OblivionKnight]

True, but not always on the depressive phase.  It's more of a bipolar thing...or like quintapolar, but whatever.

[Dhyerwolf]

Letting someone win their way up if they don't deserve the division in the first place is a horrible, horrible idea. This of course doesn't apply to Yukiko and Naoto (especially), who got draws that suited them very well (Well, I would have had Yukiko going out round 2, and not sure she deals with Kanji anyways), but it does apply to underranking.

[Scar]

Correction:

In wrestling, lets say you weigh 110 pounds. You do not go down to the lower weight class, you have to fight in the 112-115 weight class. That's why they have weigh ins to make sure both wrestlers actually made weight. If one of the wrestlers is overweight, he better start spitting and running or else he won't fight and the match is forfeit.

[James_xeno]

Godlike:

Piastol (SoA) vs Loki (VP1)
Ryu (BoF3) vs  Kefka (FF6) - Close, but Ryu takes this one I think.


Heavy:

Fei Wong Fong (XG) vs Renee Kearse (MK)
Naoto Shirogane(P4) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC) - A lot less close.. Goes first > TS = SPLAT!
Well not really close at all actually.


Middle:

Vormav Tingel (FFT) vs Kanji Tatsumi (P4)
Adell (Disgaea 2) vs Yukiko Amagi (P4)


Light:

Landis (S3) vs Beecham (S3)
Vinsfeld  (WA2) vs Serph (DDS)

[Starphoenix das Helpoemer]

Naoto Shirogane(P4) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC) - A lot less close.. Goes first > TS = SPLAT!
Well not really close at all actually.

Actually it is close. Hiro may or may not go first, and even if he does, Endure goes off. Naoto then pulls off Mudoon or Hamaonn and insta-deaths Hiro. If people see Naoto going first, that's two shots of insta-death for Hiro to contend with. Not as one sided as you make it out to be.

[James_xeno]

Naoto Shirogane(P4) vs Hiro (Lunar:EBC) - A lot less close.. Goes first > TS = SPLAT!
Well not really close at all actually.

Actually it is close. Hiro may or may not go first, and even if he does, Endure goes off. Naoto then pulls off Mudoon or Hamaonn and insta-deaths Hiro. If people see Naoto going first, that's two shots of insta-death for Hiro to contend with. Not as one sided as you make it out to be.

Hero's about 115% average speed, Naoto's only around 106%. So I don't think there's any ambiguity over who goes first here.

Endure? You're generally not going to find many people who are open to allowing generic castwide abilities, obtained optionally through nearly completely maxing out what basically amounts to a massive side quest/activity. Especially an ability so... intrusive and battle altering. Besides, if she got that, then Hero would get access to a few items which probably lets him get past her anyway... just a big mess.

Personally, I tend to be a little more permissive than most. But it can only go so far, as long as others are not. Endure is just one big can of worms. If we allow something like this, then let the FFIX Auto-Life hype begin. (and by extension, all the other autos, generics, etc.)

Naoto's going to need something other than endure if she hopes to win this.

[Ultradude]

I'll add, James, that most people appear to be allowing Endure up to this point.

Auto-Life is attached to equipment, while Endure is something that the entire cast - at the least the characters that you plan to bring into the last dungeons - will have, unless you're simply doing it wrong. It's simply something that happens as a matter of course, just as most allow everyone's second Persona.

And most people are assuming that Naoto is going for Algernon as her weapon, and Snow's post makes clear where he sees the speed coming in at based on that.

Er, and is TS evadable? I really wouldn't know at all.

[Bardiche]

LUNAR skills never miss as far as I know.

//Edit: To clarify that, while physical attacks are sometimes evaded by enemies, in my playthroughs I have never witnessed any enemy ever dodging any of the skills launched at them, excepting status ailments.

[Yoshiken]

Endure is also a key aspect of gameplay at a number of points, and if nobody has Endure throughout P4, you're really not getting through the game at a normal level. That's the main reason it's generally accepted - trying to keep the cast acting as close as possible to in-game.

And, uhh, FFIX Auto-Life generally is allowed, I thought. Unless I'm forgetting something and there's some non-Blue Magic Auto-Life or an Auto-Life that doesn't bring the character back on single-digit HP with an empty ATB bar.

[Ultradude]

Well... yeah, actually the only reason people don't hype it is because it's not useful at all, whereas Endure is.

I'm certain it's come up as possibly useful before, but it's not a match winner because... yeah, what you just said.

[hinode]

FFT is the only version of Auto-Life I can think of that people generally don't allow, for the very simple reason that it doesn't work in-game unless you have a teammate alive.