FE9 Ranking Discussion

[Meeplelard]

Ok, first off, if you want to see discussion from the old topic...

http://www.rpgdl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8252

Go there.

Anyway, since the ranking of FE9 can conceivably happen in the next ranking period (whenever that is...think its not for another few months or so), it'd be best to help get a good idea of what to rank, and since a bunch of people have played/are playing the game now, it'd be nice to get input from them about what they think should be ranked.

From what I remember, the general agreement on who to rank looked like this:
-Greil Mercenaries, excluding Shinon and possibly Gatrie (main team you use for most of the early game, tend to represent a bunch of classes, etc.)
-Elincia (One of the biggest plot characters)
*-Marcia, Jill, Mia, Nephenee, Astrid (generally often used, popular characters, who each represent a different class, barring Astrid, whose still just used a lot)
-At least one Lethe, Mordecai or Ranulf (Laguz representatives, Lethe and Mordecai you have for the longest time, Ranulf's the most important offhand...this one is the ranking area that'd need most discussion, I'd say, since agreement on it isn't much.)
-Petrine and Ena (boss representatives, both have a fair amount of plot.  Do note that Ena has a PC form, but its a split path while her boss form is forced.)
-Volke (More plot than you'd think, unique mastery skill, and pretty much used by everyone since its him or an under leveled, unpromote-able Thief in Sothe)
-*NO* to ranking Black Knight (Fight is plottish + Goddess Protect nonsense)
-*NO* to Ashnard (Goddess Protect nonsense and the Hard Mode interp issues that some might allow, etc.)
-General agreement on Laguz Royals was Yes to Tibarn (most plot, forced as an Ally in 2 fights, one of which is the second to last map in the game, so scaling arguments aren't even a factor), maybe to Naesala (fair amount of plot, split path PC is the only thing holding him back along with a Super Bossesque form mid game), and a flat out No to Giffca (has practically zilch for plot, and no battle forms barring a split path PC.)

I'm probably missing someone down the line, but yeah, figured it couldn't hurt to bring this back for some of the new players to add input, and just general helping gauge what should be ranked should the game get that far (which is not that farfetched at this point, near as I can tell, though far from definite.)

*There has been some discussion to use Haar alongside/instead of Jill due to general popularity for him.  Similarly, some discussion for using Tanith over Marcia since she has a bit more plot, and the Reinforce quirk to make her more interesting, IIRC.

[Dark Holy Elf]

-Greil Mercenaries, excluding Shinon and possibly Gatrie (main team you use for most of the early game, tend to represent a bunch of classes, etc.)[/quote]

I'm a bit iffy on Rolf as well, because you only have to use him for one battle, he's not especially plot-heavy, etc. He's also generally considered a pretty bad unit but he's in an odd position because a lot of people use him ANYWAY, likely because he's your first archer. All the other GMs sound good. Oscar/Boyd are like the two most-used PCs in the game, Soren/Titania/Mist are also up there with lots of plot, Rhys is... uh, unique!

Most of the secondary picks I am fine with, popularity can decide here.

Replaying the game, Ranulf has even more plot than I remembered. He'd definitely be my laguz pick now.

I wouldn't really consider Petrine a slamdunk ranking idea. Wouldn't oppose, etc. I guess it feels... odd to rank Petrine and not Ashnard, even if I understand why (and support it! ASHNARD CAN BURN). Ena I'll just abstain on, I'm biased. OLIVER is a boss I'd also give serious ranking hype to. He has a lot of plot and is certainly the most talked-about villain in the game from what I've seen (besides BK, and... no).

No Tanith, Reinforce just seems like an argument waiting to happen. Jill is more popular than Haar in FE9, so either both or just Jill or neither.

Overall I am pretty cool with a light ranking for the game, even down to as little as 10ish people. No real strong opinions besides a NO BLACK KNIGHT OR ASHNARD policy, and a "yes, it deserves more than a single FW Ike". Whatever people want.

[Meeplelard]

I wanted to put Oliver up there for bosses alongside Petrine/Ena, but I don't remember many people talking about him.  Probably deserves, if nothing else, a nod as a reasonable ranking idea, since he's certainly one of the more memorable bosses in game, and has a few chapters dedicated to him, etc.

I mostly brought up Haar since I think it was Eph that suggested using him over Jill? Then again, considering who said that, this could be a completely biased statement so yeah, should be taken with a grain of salt.  I tossed Tanith up there since felt like she was worth noting.

I also didn't mean to make it sound like Petrine was a "RANK NOW!" idea.  These were things that people were generally agreeing with, from what I remember, be it strongly for (people like Ike, Soren, etc.  Those you'd rank without question) to people who seemed like decent ideas but could live without (Rhys comes to mind.)  Either way, she's one of the best boss rank ideas, even if its unintuitive compared to someone like Ashnard, for whatever that's worth.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Petrine was a bit more memorable than Oliver, in my opinion, though I'd vote to rank neither.

Ike/Mist/Soren/Titania/Ellincia are definites for me.

Oscar, Boyd, and Rolf from the Greil Mercenaries work.

Between Marcia and Tanith, I'd vote Tanith. I don't think Reinforce would cause as much debate as people seem to be worrying about.

Jill over Haar, though I'd vote for both.

Nephenee, Mia, and Astrid are okay, though Tanith, Jill, and Haar all have more plot than them.

Ranulf, due to plot, if we only pick one Laguz. I'd rank Lethe and Mordecai as well. Mordecai would make a fun Light, and Lethe could probably hold her own in Middle since she transforms first-turn. Just look out when her transformation's up. Also, all three of these guys have more plot than Neph, Mia, and Astrid.

Tibarn and Naesala are both a yes. Even if Naesala has a superboss-esque form, it's still not so amazing that he would dominate Godlike or anything. I thought we were leaning towards a 'rank more Godlikes' policy anyway. With Naesala, FE gets its first Godlike (or maybe he's just a high heavy, not having a skillset kind of hurts him). Both have more plot than all of the above characters barring the mains.

Ena makes a good candidate for both a Laguz entry and a boss entry, so I'd vote yes.

Definite NO to BlackKnight, Ashnard, Giffca, Shinon, Gatrie, Rhys. Too many issues or not enough substance.

Summary:
Yes: Ike, Mist, Ellincia, Titania, Soren, Tibarn, Naesala, Ranulf, Lethe, Mordecai, Ena
Probably Yes: Oscar, Boyd, Rolf, Jill
Iffy: Haar, Tanith, Marcia, Neph, Mia, Astrid, Marcia, Petrine
No: BlackKnight, Ashnard, Giffca, Shinon, Gatrie, Rhys, Illyana, everyone else.

[Ultradude]

Go go Greil Mercenaries. I don't have a problem with Gatrie myself, since you get him back earlier and a bit more easily than Shinon, and he's a lot more useful. On the other hand, I don't care too much about Rolf, though I'll give him a yes if he makes it to the ranking topic.

Elincia is a definite yes, despite possible level discrepancies due to her late joining time.

Tanith and Marcia both have a bit of plot thrown in, though certainly not much. Guess I'll support Marcia to avoid people making a fuss about Reinforce; I can imagine a few of the arguments myself.

Jill is a definite good rank; she's got some minor plot here and there, and is a very popular character. I'd actually support ranking Haar as well for the same reason, and the Brave Axe I'll let him have along with stat differences mean that they won't be carbon copies of one another.

Mia is... um, technically a GM I guess? Plus we need a swordmaster. Nephenee, Brom, and Kieran are all in the same boat basically, except that Brom isn't used quite as much as the other two, and Kieran shares his class with oodles of other characters, so Nephenee gets to represent Halberdiers. Astrid can show up, fine.

Ranulf seems like the best Laguz rank, and I wouldn't mind throwing in Lethe and Mordecai as well. I could be convinced of Janaff and Ulki, though no one seems to like them much.

Tibarn and Naesala both have lots of plot. Both have potential FE Godlike hype, which is awesome, lots of plot, and forced appearances.

As for bosses, Petrine, Oliver, and Ena are the most significant bosses that don't have major issues. They all have plenty of plot, non-controversial abilities, and I like FE bosses more than a lot of the PCs. Black Knight is an obvious no regardless of any goddesses (superbossy duel), but I... think that Ashnard might be doable? I'm not convinced that people in general would let him null most of the attacks in the DL, and hard mode interpretations can theoretically affect most bosses (Mithos getting Indignation Judgment for example).

As for anything missed... A straight no to Illyana, Zihark, Sothe, Makalov, Tormod, Muarim, Stefan, Devdan, Reyson (yeah...), Callil (T_T), Tauroneo, Largo, Nasir, and Giffca. Bastian, Lucia, and Geoffrey all have some marginal end game plot to go on, though none of them are unique to their class, so I'm on the fence with them.

To summarize:

YES: Ike, Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Soren, Mist, Volke, Ranulf, Elincia, Ena, Petrine, Oliver, Tibarn, Naesala

Maybe: Rhys, Shinon, Gatrie, Rolf, Mia, Marcia, Lethe, Mordecai, Nephenee, Kieran, Brom, Jill, Astrid, Tanith, Janaff, Ulki, Haar, Bastian, Lucia, Geoffrey, Ashnard

NO: Illyana (T_T), Zihark, Sothe, Makalov, Tormod, Muarim, Stefan, Devdan, Resyon, Callil (T_T), Tauroneo, Largo, Nasir, Giffca, Black Knight, and anyone else I missed, unless someone wants to start hyping Seeker, Bertram, or Homasa >_>

[Dark Holy Elf]

Ranulf, due to plot, if we only pick one Laguz. I'd rank Lethe and Mordecai as well. Mordecai would make a fun Light, and Lethe could probably hold her own in Middle since she transforms first-turn. Just look out when her transformation's up. Also, all three of these guys have more plot than Neph, Mia, and Astrid.

Neph/Mia/Astrid aren't getting arguments to get in for plot, but because they're commonly used units who represent classes.

Neph, in particular, I'll defend as one of the best ranks, because not only is she widely-used, but she has Wrath, making her one of the most interesting duellers in the cast.

Mia/Astrid I don't care about as much, though they are the two speedsters up for ranking (besides Naesala, Tibarn kinda); one with Vantage, and one with... a melee/bows combination or something? Eh.

Naesala/Tibarn aren't making Godlike from this game unless Naesala gets a lot more hype for that boss form than I expect. Naesala is only a point above average damage (even if doubling everything helps), so he's really just an Eirika variant with less evade/damage but more concrete durability and Vortex; Tibarn does indeed barely one-round average (barring the kill point being raised due to counters or skills?) but he's very easy to drop out of both doubling range and 2HKOing range, and totally one-dimensional, albeit with great durability. I don't see him as Godlike without the boons he gets in FE10 (a 40+% crit rate with Tear to own healers, much more reliable doubling, and way more effective evade through both higher stats + better Pavise).


EDIT: Oh hell, we forgot Volke entirely! Anyway, he's got a lot of plot, a unique class, and a unique mastery skill since we seem to be allowing those. I'd probably support him.

[alanna82]

Do FE 10 forms count for this too?

Yes to Ike, Mist, Soren, Titania, Rolf, Oscar and Gatrie
Yes to Mia, Nephenee, Jill and Marcia or Tanith (either one of the Pegs works)
yes to Elincia
Yes to Lethe and Ranulf (Lethe transforms at the beginning of battle, so she is easier to interpret)
Yes to Volke
Yes to Naesala and Tibarn
Yes to Ena

Maybe for everyone else except Black Knight and Ashnard. A big NO to Black Knight and Ashnard. If FE 10 is combined with rankings then add Sothe, Geoffrey and Lucia to yes.

[superaielman]

FE10 will almost certainly be ranked separately.

[Meeplelard]

EDIT: Oh hell, we forgot Volke entirely! Anyway, he's got a lot of plot, a unique class, and a unique mastery skill since we seem to be allowing those. I'd probably support him.

...yeah, knew I was forgetting someone from that list.  Volke definitely deserves a nod to ranking.  He even has a rather important scene dedicated to him, unique class in practice (yay Sothe for not promoting?), generally memorable, and is probably used by like everyone who plays FE9 cause you definitly want to use a Thief, and its either him, or the underleveled character who can't promote in Sothe.

Maybe for everyone else except Black Knight and Ashnard. A big NO to Black Knight and Ashnard. If FE 10 is combined with rankings then add Sothe, Geoffrey and Lucia to yes.

Characters who would get added in through FE10 worth?
Like you said, Geoffrey, Sothe, and Lucia are obvious ones; Sothe's a major PC who is forced into lots of chapters. Geoffrey and Lucia are important figures in Part 2 and play some roles in Part 4.
Tibarn and Naesala gain an even stronger case to be ranked (Tibarn even acts as a Lord for part of Part 4, Naesala is now a forced PC instead of a split path one.)
Ena gets a stronger case to be ranked, being a forced PC, though she really doesn't want that FE10 form since Laguz Issues in the DL in FE10 are far worse than FE9 (barring those with Formshift obviously.)

The rest who'd get a stronger case are either just not strong enough, or already were probably getting ranked anyway, so don't really matter.  Well, and there's the completely new original PCs (be it completely original like Micaiah or former NPCs given battle forms like Sanaki), but that's obviously not being factored into an FE9 ranking period.

All in all, though, if a character needs FE10 to be worth ranking, I'd rather rank them when FE10 gets ranked.  This mostly applies to Geoffrey, Lucia and Sothe though, and MAYBE Naesala and Tibarn (though those two are probably decent enough ranks without FE10's help anyway)

EDIT: Regarding Mia and Astrid rank?

Well, we don't have any FE9 Swordmaster reps, so if nothing else, Mia works for that.  She's probably the most popular used one, and frankly, fits in with the "Rank Greil Mercenaries" as she's sort of an honorary one (proven in FE10!)  She also joins really early too.  Vantage works as a neat quirk; feels like someone who'd work for that.

Astrid...yeah, she's pretty much purely a popularity thing in the DL.  She doesn't really add much (after all, Greil Mercs ALONE add in Titania and Oscar for Paladins) though Paragon making her a level 20/20 PC in the DL does have its niches...eh, she's not exactly top of the line ranking material, but still feels like someone worth noting due to internal popularity.

[DjinnAndTonic]

If Mia's got more plot in FE10, then I'd definitely support her as an FE10 rank or as a FE9/10 rank. But on her FE9 merits alone, I'm leaning No.

I figure if we keep the FE9 ranking small, there's a much higher chance we won't be scared to rank FE10. And FE10's ranking will probably be kept small as a result, due to precedent and already having a large number of the cast ranked.

That said, I'd probably drop Mordecai from my 'definite' list, and bump Neph up in his place. Astrid stills feels extraneous. Her unique skill doesn't quite translate into the DL in a way that would make her more interesting. And she has less plot than Gatrie. If she's a bigger player in FE10, then I could see her getting in with that ranking.

But, keeping it smaller is better for now.

As far as ranking Astrid goes, in reality, don't care if she gets ranked or not.  Same applies to Kieran; again, one thing that's a strike against them is both are Paladins, something it seems most people agree we're already ranking 2 of (Oscar and Titania.) Astrid does have the 27 speed thing as a niche, and Kieran has...uhh...GAMBLE!  Yeah, either way, strikes me as something that doesn't really matter what we decide, even if its "Rank neither" since its not a huge gain/loss in either direction.

Regarding Mia? She doesn't really gain much plot in FE10 at all (though she is one of the few PCs with a line of voice acting! Something like only 10 other characters get, PCs and NPCs alike!)  Ranking her is mostly on gameplay merits; Vantage is a memorable skill (if nothing else, its half of the Vantage + Wrath/Resolve combo), she joins early game, and represents a class that's not covered in the DL by FE9 (that could be a reason to keep Gatrie in too, for that matter; rejoins at a reasonable point unlike Shinon, and represents an otherwise unranked class)...eh, feels like a decent enough idea to me.

Though, looking at what we have for ranking ideas purely from a gameplay standpoint as far as uniqueness...
Ike, Elincia, Mist, Rhys, and Boyd are all unique classes by PC standards, so yeah, no redundancy there.
Jill (or Haar, for that matter) = Wyvern Lord
Titania = Paladin
Oscar = Paladin
Marcia (or Tanith for that matter) = Falcon Knight
Mia = Swordmaster
Nephenee = Halberdier
Rolf = Sniper
Soren = Sage
Ranulf (or Lethe/Mordecai for that matter) = Cat (or Laguz in general; Tiger in Mordecai's case, naturally)
Tibarn = Hawk (with a Laguz Band, so that alone makes him stand out, if the stats alone didn't <_<)
Naesala = Raven (with a Laguz band, so see above)
Volke = Assassin (Could be argued being a unique class, but shares the same base class with Sothe so eh...)
Gatrie = General

Edit: Agreeing with Meeple's logic on this. This is only 21 characters (still double what I'd like, but it means less FE10 characters will need to be added when/if that ranking comes around). Only 18 if there's just one PegKnight, WyvernLord, and Cat Laguz each is ranked.

Still would push for Ena to represent Bosses/Dragon Laguz.

i

[Ultradude]

Characters who get more stuff in FE10 should be ranked with FE10. Heck, I'm almost thinking that we should rank Sothe as just FE10, given his issues with not promoting.

On another note, would we rank the Black Knight as his spoiler true identity when we rank FE10? Using that name shoots down a lot of the complaints about him, since it implies that he's only using the one, much more legal form he gets under that name. It feels like it would be a shame to rank both games and not let one of the most important characters get something.

Astrid is kinda odd now that I think about it... her popularity is much more of an internal thing, since if GameFAQs is any indication, Kieran is much more widely used. Also, he's a better deuller than she is, probably the strongest of the paladins. He can take bows as a second weapon if he really needs the ranged attack option with accuracy. Of course, this will end up coming down to Astrid's DL popularity so my point may be moot, though Kieran would also be more fun for writeups.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm all for ranking the Black Knight (under whatever name... guess I'd prefer his real name since we usually rank under real names, see Albert Simon, etc.) when we rank FE10. You're entirely correct that he's way too important to not rank, and yeah, perfectly legal in FE10 one way or another. Not sure how people will end up taking him, granted. That's a discussion for another time.

I agree that Kieran is more popular outside the DL than Astrid overall, though Astrid does seem more popular here. Don't really mind how we break on that. DL-wise, Astrid is a better dueller, she gets 27 speed and doubles average, so she's probably in that Middle/Heavy area where Kieran, despite a bit more damage and HP (EDIT: but less Def and much less Res! Wow), is someone I don't see winning a Middle title ever despite in-game awesome. You can argue both/neither/whichever for ranking, I don't feel strongly.

[VySaika]

Keeping this short.

Yes to Ranking: Ike, Soren, Titania, Boyd, Oscar, Mist, Rolf, Rhys, Mia, Volke, Gatrie, Nepheene, Jill, Elincia, Ranulf, Tibarn, Oliver, Ena

Maybe to Ranking: Marcia, Tanith, Lethe, Mordecai, Kieran, Astrid, Naesala, Petrine

NO to Ranking: Everything else, ESPECIALLY Black Knight and Ashnard.

[Meeplelard]

Black Knight getting ranked based on FE10 is fine, yeah, in whatever fashion; at that point, it comes down to personal interps which its hard to get everyone to agree with, but he's got at least SOME legal form in the mix in FE10, and given his combined role in both games beats out most characters, hard to justify NOT ranking him at that point.

Just the FE9 form has lots of issues (plotty fight, Goddess Protection BS, what have you.)

Agree to ranking him under his real name; if nothing else, it helps promote the fact that its "This is his FE10 form!", alongside him being ranked as though he's from FE10, and not FEs (similar to Hrist, really.)

As far as ranking Astrid goes, in reality, don't care if she gets ranked or not.  Same applies to Kieran; again, one thing that's a strike against them is both are Paladins, something it seems most people agree we're already ranking 2 of (Oscar and Titania.) Astrid does have the 27 speed thing as a niche, and Kieran has...uhh...GAMBLE!  Yeah, either way, strikes me as something that doesn't really matter what we decide, even if its "Rank neither" since its not a huge gain/loss in either direction.

Regarding Mia? She doesn't really gain much plot in FE10 at all (though she is one of the few PCs with a line of voice acting! Something like only 10 other characters get, PCs and NPCs alike!)  Ranking her is mostly on gameplay merits; Vantage is a memorable skill (if nothing else, its half of the Vantage + Wrath/Resolve combo), she joins early game, and represents a class that's not covered in the DL by FE9 (that could be a reason to keep Gatrie in too, for that matter; rejoins at a reasonable point unlike Shinon, and represents an otherwise unranked class)...eh, feels like a decent enough idea to me.

Though, looking at what we have for ranking ideas purely from a gameplay standpoint as far as uniqueness...
Ike, Elincia, Mist, Rhys, and Boyd are all unique classes by PC standards, so yeah, no redundancy there.
Jill (or Haar, for that matter) = Wyvern Lord
Titania = Paladin
Oscar = Paladin
Marcia (or Tanith for that matter) = Falcon Knight
Mia = Swordmaster
Nephenee = Halberdier
Rolf = Sniper
Soren = Sage
Ranulf (or Lethe/Mordecai for that matter) = Cat (or Laguz in general; Tiger in Mordecai's case, naturally)
Tibarn = Hawk (with a Laguz Band, so that alone makes him stand out, if the stats alone didn't <_<)
Naesala = Raven (with a Laguz band, so see above)
Volke = Assassin (Could be argued being a unique class, but shares the same base class with Sothe so eh...)
Gatrie = General

Astrid and Kieran are just more Paladins (and then, that'd mean we have all but Makalov and Geoffrey ranked!)  Its worth noting, however, that Oscar can be made somewhat unique compared to Titania by giving him a Bow, at least (Bow would give him a far better ranged attack if nothing else), and we have most classes actually represented by someone in this matter.  Really, all we don't have represented is Berserker, which belongs to all of Largo, who is late joining PC with no plot.
If nothing else, the above looks like a fine list as far as PCs go, since there's little redundancy to complain about, generally represents a good amount of the game, and isn't getting too much of an oversized rank.

[Pyro]

Mostly Echoing other people's comments by this point, I guess.

Greil Mercenaries: Ike/Titania/Boyd/Mist/Soren/Oscar/Rolf/Rhys... Big Yes. Don't have to explain this. Rhys is the most arguable and even he is pretty reasonable. Otherwise all of them have significant plot.

Gatrie: Sure. I don't see a major problem here. He is significant enough early and comes back at a reasonable time.

Shinon: Maybe. He's a significant character early on, but a bit of a pain to recruit permanently. I don't know how I'd see this if pressed. I honestly want to say no based on the recruitment requirement.

Mia: Yes. She's handed to you early in the game, is the first swordsmaster, has a memorable skill, is cute, etc...

Marcia: Maybe. She doesn't have much plot and is optional, but first peg knight and only one for a good while.

Elincia: Yes. Major player, Mission Critical in the last few missions... the only problem is that she joins so late and underlevelled, which could inflate her some. She's not that good on this form anyway. Plot alone dictates a rank.

Ranulf: Yes with some reservation. He certainly has enough plot for it, though his actual joining comes late.

Volke: Yes. Has plot significance, unique class, practically forced for a stage, and so on.

Lethe and Mordecai: Maybe. These two are your first Laguz and are novelties for the time as such. Not that bad of ranks at all at the end of the day.

Jill: Sure. She has some plot significance, is a pretty good PC, comes with a neat accessory (Not a boon perse but helps with memorability), and should be pretty recognizable.

Astrid: As much as I like her, I'll say no. The only real reason for ranking her would be usage, which apparently isn't that widespread outside the DL. Geoffery has significantly more plot along with the same skill even if he does come later, so I can't really see ranking her and not him offhand. Some of her value is also from an item you can just yank off of her, which is always a minus. And with a hidden trait of that item too. You could even argue that all the paladins/Knights ought to get a boost from it with the Bonus Exp system making it so easy to abuse.


Tibarn and Naesala: I... am a little divided on this. Tibarn has a stronger case than Naesala, whose boss form is EPIC FAILURE who can go hang with plot fight Gades (the game tells you how to properly handle it without fighting. It might be a nuisance, but its not a legit fight at all). The endgame split makes this a bit touchy and voids Gifca entirely. In short, I would say yes to Tibarn and probably Naesala. With the caveat that I will personally rip out the spleen of the person who hypes aforementioned boss form.

Bosses:

Oliver: Honestly, I want to say no. The game will automatically rip him apart for you via the hawks if you let it, and I can't say that is a legit fight because of it. I might nod him as a puny for hilarity's sake, but if it seems that people actually have any form of respect for him as a Light I'm out.

Petrine: Sure. She's plot important and is notable for being soloed by Mist.

Black Knight: Hell no. Plot fight you don't have to win.

Ashnard: I say yes. Honestly the Goddess Protect thing is only as bad as people make it out to be. I think the common decision will just be to scale him to the things that can hurt him for durability (Which is 3-4 things, probably less not far from what most people seem to scale other endgame non-moving FE bosses to). This makes him better than the likes of Lyon (Which. He. Is.) and might even make for a decentish Godlike. I can't speak to the Hard Mode stuff but that hasn't bothered other FE bosses/ToS/TotA/etc... Come to think of it, he may be a lot like Van in terms of interp issues. Ashnard just feels too core to the plot to pass up even if he is a RAR I EAT BABIEZ freak of a villain. The battle form is legitimate enough. Theoretically the likes of Zeromus and the SO2 wiseman could have this sort of thing come up.

[Lance]

I'll keep this short and sweet.

Yes: Ike, Titania, Boyd, Oscar, Rhys, Soren, Mia, Rolf, Mist, Marcia, Volke, Nephenee, Elincia, Ena, Tibarn, Naesala, Petrine

Maybe, leaning yes: Shinon, Gatrie, Ilyana, Brom, Zihark, Jill, Astrid, Makalov, Tanith, Calill, Ranulf, Haar, Bastian

Maybe, leaning no: Lethe, Mordecai, Keiran, Tormod, Muarim, Nasir, Largo

No: Sothe, Stefan, Devdan, Ulki, Janaff, Tauroneo, Lucia, Geoffrey, Giffca, Reyson, Oliver, Black Knight, Ashnard

The only character who isn't a lock for ranking who I would actually be willing to fight for is Nephenee.  Sure, she has zero plot, but she's one of the best units in the game and definitely one of the most interesting duelers of the cast.  As long as she gets ranked, I will be happy. 

[OblivionKnight]

Ok, my thoughts.  I'm sure you're all thrilled to hear them.

Rank everything.  This makes things a lot easier!

Granted, since people are very unlikely to swing that way...

I am all for waiting and just doing FE10 and FE9 at the same time (granted, that'd be another year), but I'm not adverse to doing a small rank now with FE9, and then finishing it with FE10.  As long as we don't get the same thing that happened with FE8 (WHERE IS MY PRECIOUS KYLE!?), this should be ok.

If we're doing a bare minimum ranking...

Greil Mercenaries (including Mia - she's explicitly part of the Mercs in FE10, and even mentions this in FE9, as she's coming to aid you, and directly joins you, as well as Gatrie and Shinon and Rolf), Elincia, Volke (plot, joins, etc.), Ranulf, Tanith, Tauroneo, Bastian, Lucia, Geoffrey, Ena, Royals.  Just...bleh, that seems very small and not really representative of the game.

If you really want the basest of rankings, you'd end up with like 8 people ranked.

For bosses, rank the Riders, Oliver, Black Knight, Ashnard.  And Greil, since we love our Punies >_> 

I really don't see a huge issue with Ashy/Blacky - see Zio and all the other bosses with barriers.  People take them fine, and there are still plenty of ways to take them.  Granted, waiting on Blacky until FE10 is fine, but Ashy...should be ranked.  Too important to the game.  I think people would be ok with them.  Seems way, way too important not to rank. 

I'd also suggest, for Laguz, that Muarim be ranked - he is a boss and is at least memorable for the Demi-band.  Ena too, for the same reasons. 

Naesala's boss form...it's at least presentation of it.  You have an idea of what he can do, he's present way before end-game, and has plenty of plot.  It's strong, but beatable - there are plenty of other bosses viewed in a similar way.  Yes, he has another way to win, but I don't see people taking the Dragon Heart against Zog/Sara or anyone in BoF as a reason to ignore them (not the best example, but it's all I could think of at the moment).  I can fully understand not voting on the form, but it's a representation of him, period, and enough to get people thinking about what he can do, and even give them consideration for him at the end.  It's a good presentation of who he is. 

Mmm...anything else?  Eh, maybe I'll note later.  Must finish other stuff.

[Shale]

Haven't played the game, but would like to chime in anyway based on FE in the DL to date.

Yes: Anybody with overriding plot importance or legal claim to a skill that changes how they fight in some way.
No: Anybody else. We've already got about ten times the FE generics we need, no more please.

Note: by "overriding plot importance" I mean at least equal to Lyn in FE7.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Okay, first of all. Obvious yes to: Ike, Mist, Boyd, Oscar, Elinicia, Titania, Soren. Plot important PCs, yay and stuff. Volke is also plot-important (although not to the degree of the ones above) but he has a unique class and can assassinate things. Yay! So yes. I strongly approve of Mia, Marcia, and Nephanee as well because they are fun duellers. I also approve of Astrid, because this is a fan-orienated site and she has fans, so she should be ranked. She's also gets level 20/20 in the DL!! Or something. Jill and Haar are also plot-important, well-liked characters who are really memorable, so I'd say rank them too. Tibarn I say yes to, Naesala is a little iffier to me but people like him and he's fun, so why not? Ena is the only boss I want to rank. She has a PC form that you will most likely get unless you are a crazy person anyway (sorry Meeple).

So basically, my yes list is: Ike, Mist, Boyd, Oscar, Elincia, Titania, Soren, Volke, Mia, Marcia, Nephanee, Astrid, Jill, Haar, Tibarn, Naesala, and Ena. It's enough that the fans of the game are appeased, but not too much.

I don't care about the Laguz at all, but if we are going to rank one, I'd say Lethe because she won't be grossly incompetent in the DL due to transformation, since she does it on Turn 1. So I'm kind of apathetic on her unless I see a really good reason to rank her. Geoffrey is someone I'd kind of like to rank but we have paladins already. Same with Kieran. Tanith... well, whatever, the group decides there. Also fairly apathetic about Rhys and Rolf.

NO to everything else, including Petrine who is a boring, unmemorable boss fight, and Ashnard, who is a headache waiting to happen.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Petrine: Sure. She's plot important and is notable for being soloed by Mist.

Given that Petrine is actually a decent dueller (for starters, she... probably doubles average at the time), I'd say that's a point against her if anything. <_<

[Meeplelard]

It is worth noting that Pyro had some sort of...abnormal Mist.

Apparently, she capped Strength and after promoting, her Strength was always higher than her Magic, or something crazy like that.

I'm not sure what this says <_<

Though, Petrine does stand out as being an FE Paladin Boss who is walled by Mages (especially Fire resistance)!  That's not something you see every day.

Then again, Lloyd/Linus had a similar situation being a Swordmaster/Hero with the same quirk, GRANTED, they have form split issues that vary based on path splits and then Hector Mode screws with them more and blech, not entirely the same situation.
Not to mention they both have less plot than her <_<

[Ultradude]

"Memorable" seems to be a very person by person thing around these parts. Ciato cited Petrine as being unmemorable, while I found her to be one of the few bosses whose fight I can help someone beat off the top of my head. She's certainly got more plot than a lot of FE bosses out there, which is... more than a lot of the well-hyped PCs have.

I'll continue to echo OK's opinion on Ashnard here. There are so many bosses here with some sort of barrier or another, and while Ashnard is sorta unique in that his barrier doesn't go away after using an item or something, I still don't see there being much of a problem. The armor... well, most FE fans have little respect for FE9 bosses in general outside of the Burger King, so I can't see the casual vote ever hyping a FE boss very much. The differences in what stats you take against him isn't so big as the difference between a puny and a godlike, simply whether he's a good heavy or a borderline godlike. He's more plot relevant than Petrine, Ena, and Oliver, and he's the final boss.

BK, on the other hand, has other things about the nature of the fight that make him much iffier, and he's gonna get ranked as his true identity with FE10 anyways.

OK is... the only other person to support Elincia's retainers so far, I think? They can probably wait till FE10 so they can pick up the extra plot needed for otherwise mediocre characters; the only things that make Geoffrey stand out from other paladins are a possible level advantage and a Brave Lance, which isn't a whole lot.

He also mentioned Tauroneo which... thinking on it, isn't bad. He's got plenty of backstory involving the main plot, and Resolve makes him more interesting than ranking another version of Oswin/Gatrie/etc. He's even got a Silver Blade and the weapon level to use it! Never mind actually trying to land a hit with the thing.

[Meeplelard]

Tauroneo's a pretty bad rank from FE9, honestly.  He pops out from nowhere, just suddenly joins Ike cause he has relations with Greil and what not, and...then doesn't have much, barring a few Boss quotes. He's near plotless, not used by many people, not exactly memorable...yeah.

Now, in FE10, that's a different story; Tauroneo gains some plot there (forgot about him from before.)  He gains Part 1 in his favor (and even stands out for being a bit of a Super PC given the Overleveled Tier 2 thing when you're facing mid level Tier 1's.  It stands out how much stronger he is than Zihark, Sothe and Volug, the only other (effectively) Tier 2 PCs at the time, if only cause of how much higher Leveled he is.), followed by having some plot in Part 3, with the big scene with Pelleas and all that.  Ranking him based off FE10 isn't such a bad idea, but...FE9 ranking in and of itself? Not a good idea.

In fairness, yes, Resolve is a neat trick in the DL, but eh, its not enough to make him rankable to me.  Silver Blade is store bought though, so its nothing in his favor at all, frankly (he does come with a Spear, I think, which is actually kind of unique, I guess.)  I dunno, Tauroneo just doesn't seem up to snuff regarding rankings.  All he has going for him is Resolve.  Come FE10, however, he'll probably be considered to some extent.

Elincia's trio though? They exist for a few scenes, than mean rather little...pretty text book by FE standards for plot, which is to say, not much.  Geoffrey's the only interesting one though with Paragon and arguable Brave Lance which...isn't enough.  Lucia stands outs for being really damned bad I guess, ditto Bastian, but that's not a reason to rank either <_<.  Again, come FE10, Lucia and Geoffrey will have good cases to be ranked, Bastian I'd still be wary of (Though, while he isn't in the game much, they do refer to him plenty throughout Part 2.)

Regarding Ashnard? There's a bit of a difference between him and other plot barriers...
Zio's case, the barrier is something the game OPENLY GIVES YOU TIME TO REMOVE.  He actively casts it on a free turn, the following turn, he uses Nightmare 100% of the time; it was the game's way of giving you a free turn to hurt him and remove the 100% Instant Death.  Its also worth nothing that his Barrier goes away, its gone for good, and its not a passive effect.

The only other case offhand I can think of is Lezard, and...well, in his case, he has other forms to work with.  I personally vote on his PC form since its has the least issues, and the way I scale him, its overall superior.  Ashnard lacks that aspect too.

Call it shaky arguments, but the fact remains that we've come to this plot barrier argument before, and some people actually allow it.  Zio's the one exception since in his case, the Plot Barrier is flat out invincibility and its actually removed (he has 255 Agility so he always goes first, Instant Death that can't fail, and perfect evasion and defenses...this is not something you can take with a straight face), so yeah.  Ashnard lacks that; its just 3 PCs per game who can even HURT HIM, and that's that.

[Nephrite]

I'm not sure if this is at all relevant, but assuming one doesn't allow Goddess Protect for Ashnard, who in the game could theoretically hurt him? 35 Defense and 26 Resistance seems really tanky to me.

I'm basically curious to see how he'd fare against averages.

I think I personally would be in favor of ranking him... it seems like he only has the one plot-related protection going against him and so many other things for him, it would be a shame to deny him just because one or two people might try and vote on him and say "Oh he takes no damage ha ha!" I just can't foresee that being much of a problem. (Has it come up in the past?)

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm not sure if this is at all relevant, but assuming one doesn't allow Goddess Protect for Ashnard, who in the game could theoretically hurt him? 35 Defense and 26 Resistance seems really tanky to me.

Ike can hurt him, and Ike is only a bit above average damage, so it stands to reason that the vast majority of the PC cast could hurt him too, although for most it would be single-digit damage. I believe the only exceptions are Mist, Elincia, Sothe, Volke, and some of the laguz.

The fact that you have to ask this question, though, is a pretty bad sign as to his rankability if you ask me. Heck, even Ashnard vs. mage in general is just silly - that Res of his could be 0 or 50 for all the difference it makes in-game.