Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Monado Mandala Week 15

[DjinnAndTonic]

Does SSL cover Stat Busts too? If it does, then I'd have no trouble with allowing it to stop Knockdown.

Also... looking over Piggyman's breakdown, I'm convinced that he can outspeed and take out Valeria before she starts destroying worlds. This is just enough to swing my vote closer to Yes.

Team Piggyman passes.

[Yoshiken]

Yeah. SSL covers stat downs, ID and status.

[Dhyerwolf]

Djinn, the fight Piggyman is having real problems with the final. Valeria isn't that hard to take out.

[ThePiggyman]

Wait a minute! CT!!! YOU'VE GIVEN ME A GLIMMER OF HOPE! <3

What if Cray used Speed on Garnet? That'd tentatively allow her a turn before Lucario, and she can get off a summon without Me First crippling me. Orlandu would slam Venusaur and Garnet would get off an Odin, thus killing off Venusaur. Lucario and Charizard can kill either Adray or Chemist;

A) If Adray is killed off, Chemist has time to use a Dragon Kiss on Garnet, and grant her status immunity (Orlandu can already immune ID (Judo Outfit) AND Sleep (Defence Ring), at the same time). This way, even when Ness does get off his Flash, Orlandu and Garnet are still going to be in good shape to take the rest on (not to mention both ridiculously faster). Orlandu can use his next turn to use a Holy Explosion on Ness, and have him hit by another Odin (which Garnet can get off in time thanks to the speed boost), and THAT should be enough to take him out. It's now Lucario, Charizard and Blastoise against Orlandu and a ridiculously fast Garnet (and this is assuming Ness' Flash knocked EVERYONE off). 'zard and Blast being elementally reliant makes them weep, and already with two Odins (which might have been enough to off Lucario, honestly), any of them are dying with just one hit. Orlandu's got Night Sword, too, so he doesn't need to worry about damage piling on.

B) If Chemist is killed off, that's giving Adray a turn, which he'll spend reviving Chemist, which lets him get off the Dragon Kiss. From there, scenario A happens. ;p

My god... I PASS! But I understand if you disagree utterly with this. This is my last hope to get me through this floor. Here's to hoping you guys see this as valid. ^^

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Wait a minute! CT!!! YOU'VE GIVEN ME A GLIMMER OF HOPE! <3

What if Cray used Speed on Garnet? That'd tentatively allow her a turn before Lucario, and she can get off a summon without Me First crippling me. Orlandu would slam Venusaur and Garnet would get off an Odin, thus killing off Venusaur. Lucario and Charizard can kill either Adray or Chemist;

Problem with Cray using Speed on Garnet is that um how are you handling Ness, given how Orlandu/Garnet alone don't do it (barely, but they fail it by enough that Cray is absolutely necessary to finish him off)? Remember, in this fight, ID/status/debuffing/MP damage don't work, which toss the Odin strategy down the toilet. It's this caveat that makes your struggle here so difficult, because otherwise, Speed'd Garnet = lol half the team is dead and now you could make your recovery.

[ThePiggyman]

Wait a minute! CT!!! YOU'VE GIVEN ME A GLIMMER OF HOPE! <3

What if Cray used Speed on Garnet? That'd tentatively allow her a turn before Lucario, and she can get off a summon without Me First crippling me. Orlandu would slam Venusaur and Garnet would get off an Odin, thus killing off Venusaur. Lucario and Charizard can kill either Adray or Chemist;

Problem with Cray using Speed on Garnet is that um how are you handling Ness, given how Orlandu/Garnet alone don't do it (barely, but they fail it by enough that Cray is absolutely necessary to finish him off)? Remember, in this fight, ID/status/debuffing/MP damage don't work, which toss the Odin strategy down the toilet. It's this caveat that makes your struggle here so difficult, because otherwise, Speed'd Garnet = lol half the team is dead and now you could make your recovery.

With TWO Odins (with Odin's Sword) and a Holy Explosion. Chemist AND Orlandu are both living through his Flash, thanks to immunities. Ness DOES get off his Flash, but that's covered.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

With TWO Odins and a Holy Explosion. Chemist AND Orlandu are both living through his Flash, thanks to immunities. Ness DOES get off his Flash, but that's covered.

Flash just makes the fight faster once the other PCs are handled. Problem there is that Ness is MT full healing the rest of his party instead of using status, which negates any headway you make. If you target other people, he full-revives them. And he has an egregious amount of PP with which to keep them up as the rest of the high-offense, high-whoring party bombs you down. While the status immunities on a PC are nice, the Pokés can just bomb you down with their across-the-board 2HKOs if you go that route.

[ThePiggyman]

With TWO Odins and a Holy Explosion. Chemist AND Orlandu are both living through his Flash, thanks to immunities. Ness DOES get off his Flash, but that's covered.

Flash just makes the fight faster once the other PCs are handled. Problem there is that Ness is MT full healing the rest of his party instead of using status, which negates any headway you make. If you target other people, he full-revives them. And he has an egregious amount of PP with which to keep them up as the rest of the high-offense, high-whoring party bombs you down. While the status immunities on a PC are nice, the Pokés can just bomb you down with their across-the-board 2HKOs if you go that route.

I was actually told Ness doesn't have revival, that POO was the one with it.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Healing Gamma
    Level Learned: 36 (Poo)
                   53 (Ness)
    PP: 20
    Description: Cures all the effects that Beta can, as well as paralysis,
                 being diamondized, and brings back an ally from being
                 unconscious, although it doesn't restore their HP.

You're right in that only Poo has the full revival, I guess, but Ness does have revival still. Also, I just noticed that Flash Omega (and Flash Gamma) is -fully MT-. Even if Orlandu immunes the ID, he still has to deal with the other statuses, and the same applies to Chemist. If Chemist tries to use a blessing on Garnet, assuming she's even alive - and she probably -won't- be, because Lucario+Char still go before Chemist, or they could just kill Chemist instead if Garnet went first, and Orlandu can OHKO nobody in this fight if he's going for status immunities - which he will unless he wants to get killed by Flash, so one of them -at best- will be dead. Too much leeway to get them screwed there. So uh you're still boiling down to Orlandu essentially soloing this fight. That's a lot to ask.

EDIT:

And... um, man, this team is a lot to handle with this caveat and MT status. I'll have to poke Neph about that fight, and apologize beforehand for not realizing Ness' status is not only deadly, but also MT.

[ThePiggyman]

You're right in that only Poo has the full revival, I guess, but Ness does have revival still. Also, I just noticed that Flash Omega (and Flash Gamma) is -fully MT-. Even if Orlandu immunes the ID, he still has to deal with the other statuses, and the same applies to Chemist. If Chemist tries to use a blessing on Garnet, assuming she's even alive - and she probably -won't- be, because Lucario+Char still go before Chemist, or they could just kill Chemist instead if Garnet went first, and Orlandu can OHKO nobody in this fight if he's going for status immunities - which he will unless he wants to get killed by Flash, so one of them -at best- will be dead. Too much leeway to get them screwed there. So uh you're still boiling down to Orlandu essentially soloing this fight. That's a lot to ask.

All other statuses, ID excluded, on his Flash only have a 50% chance of going off, if I'm not mistaken. That's not Turn 1, and Orlandu immunes the two that disable him that ARE Turn 1. If they kill off Chemist, Adray can revive him. And after the initial Odin, Orlandu's job gets that much easier. He can also afford to equip an Ice Shield, to half Charizard's damage. He also has Night Sword, and speed on his side, to make sure the damage doesn't accumulate TOO quickly. And this is all assuming that Ness' Flash DOES disable everyone.

[dude789]

We discussed it a bit in chat a bit, but the fight really gets torn apart by good elemental blitzing and that's it's main weakness. It is a hard fight, but there are ways to beat it without much trouble.  

Edit: Orlandu can block sleep and ID, but that still leaves paralyze. Also I'm not sure that the other status effects on flash are inaccurate it may just have such a high chance of causing ID that the others aren't seen very often. Finally, if Orlandu blocks sleep, Night Sword and as a result his healing are going to be doing a lot less.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You're right in that only Poo has the full revival, I guess, but Ness does have revival still. Also, I just noticed that Flash Omega (and Flash Gamma) is -fully MT-. Even if Orlandu immunes the ID, he still has to deal with the other statuses, and the same applies to Chemist. If Chemist tries to use a blessing on Garnet, assuming she's even alive - and she probably -won't- be, because Lucario+Char still go before Chemist, or they could just kill Chemist instead if Garnet went first, and Orlandu can OHKO nobody in this fight if he's going for status immunities - which he will unless he wants to get killed by Flash, so one of them -at best- will be dead. Too much leeway to get them screwed there. So uh you're still boiling down to Orlandu essentially soloing this fight. That's a lot to ask.

All other statuses, ID excluded, on his Flash only have a 50% chance of going off, if I'm not mistaken.

However, they're hitting multiple people, and I think the statuses actually check -differently- than that: if one check fails, it goes to the next and so on once the spell hits and so on, instead of all checks being made separately (EB is dumb). 50% odds on a five-character party = about half the party is screwed over by something, and you're also ignoring that Ness could simply Rockin' Omega and the Pokés faster than Chemist simply spread their efforts and whoops both revivers that could go next turn just died. And hey look Venusaur is free to sleep Garnet/Orlandu unless you focused on him (in which case the other Pokés can pick up the slack just fine) and now you're in for the time of your life because Cray sucks ass outside the turn one buff.

And keep in mind that Ness' Flash isn't disabling everyone necessarily, but it puts odds against you further, which, in a race against dice, tends to go against the team instead of for. For you to win, -everything has to go in your favor- and -nothing can go wrong-. Any dice-rolling that goes against your favor puts you in deep doo-doo. I know that, the way you're viewing, you may even be able to pull it off with a dose of leniency, but I'm not willing to give that drop of leeway when you're coming fresh off a battle that I'm not sure you could have won to begin with and there are so many disfavorable factors playing against you.

[ThePiggyman]

You're right in that only Poo has the full revival, I guess, but Ness does have revival still. Also, I just noticed that Flash Omega (and Flash Gamma) is -fully MT-. Even if Orlandu immunes the ID, he still has to deal with the other statuses, and the same applies to Chemist. If Chemist tries to use a blessing on Garnet, assuming she's even alive - and she probably -won't- be, because Lucario+Char still go before Chemist, or they could just kill Chemist instead if Garnet went first, and Orlandu can OHKO nobody in this fight if he's going for status immunities - which he will unless he wants to get killed by Flash, so one of them -at best- will be dead. Too much leeway to get them screwed there. So uh you're still boiling down to Orlandu essentially soloing this fight. That's a lot to ask.

All other statuses, ID excluded, on his Flash only have a 50% chance of going off, if I'm not mistaken.

However, they're hitting multiple people, and I think the statuses actually check -differently- than that: if one check fails, it goes to the next and so on once the spell hits and so on, instead of all checks being made separately (EB is dumb). 50% odds on a five-character party = about half the party is screwed over by something, and you're also ignoring that Ness could simply Rockin' Omega and the Pokés faster than Chemist simply spread their efforts and whoops both revivers that could go next turn just died. And hey look Venusaur is free to sleep Garnet/Orlandu unless you focused on him (in which case the other Pokés can pick up the slack just fine) and now you're in for the time of your life because Cray sucks ass outside the turn one buff.

And keep in mind that Ness' Flash isn't disabling everyone necessarily, but it puts odds against you further, which, in a race against dice, tends to go against the team instead of for. For you to win, -everything has to go in your favor- and -nothing can go wrong-. Any dice-rolling that goes against your favor puts you in deep doo-doo. I know that, the way you're viewing, you may even be able to pull it off with a dose of leniency, but I'm not willing to give that drop of leeway when you're coming fresh off a battle that I'm not sure you could have won to begin with and there are so many disfavorable factors playing against you.

Firstly, Venusaur, as mentioned earlier, IS my first target, no debate there. Orlandu and Garnet most certainly CAN kill him off, and after Garnet's turn, EVERYONE'S hurt. Adray can likely even kill off Lucario, if you don't buy Chemist getting a turn after he's revived.

Next, Orlandu can immune Paralysis, ID AND Sleep all at once. Amazing, I know. Yes, the Flash is still going to hit someone, but the fact remains that, even if it hits the check on some, it's still only a 50% chance of hitting Orlandu for whatever status, AND he's already immuned 3 of the most dangerous ones.

I'm very aware that I'm pulling for as much as I can, but I would rather die trying than give up. However, do keep in mind that I CAN heal up fully from the fight before. Using Mini or Blind (both destroy an FE character's offense) gives me more than enough time to heal up, both HP and MP.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Thief Hats are floor 6? I sorta kneejerked them as floor 7 myself, midway through C4 and all. Second, there' still the issue that... um... Chemist -doesn't- immune ID unless there's some equip I'm sorely missing here (FF5 Chemist isn't FFT Chemist for equipment, and FFT Chemist is hopelessly lost here anyhow), and I wouldn't kneejerk Adray's ID immunity accessory as anything below floor 7, given how they're so reliant on the weirdass commercial IC system in SO3. So, your only ID-immune person is... Orlandu, and Ness is faster than Chemist too. Odds are at least two of your revivers are going down in flames after Ness gets a turn with your remaining reviver an easy target, and given Orlandu has to go entirely for statusblocking here, hurting his offense and durability, and the only viable idea here is... um... Orlandu -soloing- this fight from that point on, you're in really deep. This is not viable for so many reasons it's not funny. Not to mention that the only person who goes -after- Chemist and Adray in this fight is likely Blastoise, and even Garnet isn't guaranteed to go before Lucario/Charizard even after Speed because of FF9 speed and how at least Lucario isn't much slower than Speed? Cray. That's just a bit too much.

EDIT: Also, Garnet trying statuses on almost any FE-er there is asking her to kill your party. Her statuses aren't turn one either, they're getting hurt further by evade and they're also being countered. Dangerous idea there, you probably need Chemist's Blind to be MT, which is why I decided to not think about that fight one way or another.

[ThePiggyman]

Thief Hats are floor 6? I sorta kneejerked them as floor 7 myself, midway through C4 and all. Second, there' still the issue that... um... Chemist -doesn't- immune ID unless there's some equip I'm sorely missing here (FF5 Chemist isn't FFT Chemist for equipment, and FFT Chemist is hopelessly lost here anyhow), and I wouldn't kneejerk Adray's ID immunity accessory as anything below floor 7, given how they're so reliant on the weirdass commercial IC system in SO3. So, your only ID-immune person is... Orlandu, and Ness is faster than Chemist too. Odds are at least two of your revivers are going down in flames after Ness gets a turn with your remaining reviver an easy target, and given Orlandu has to go entirely for statusblocking here, hurting his offense and durability, and the only viable idea here is... um... Orlandu -soloing- this fight from that point on, you're in really deep. This is not viable for so many reasons it's not funny. Not to mention that the only person who goes -after- Chemist and Adray in this fight is likely Blastoise, and even Garnet isn't guaranteed to go before Lucario/Charizard even after Speed because of FF9 speed and how at least Lucario isn't much slower than Speed? Cray. That's just a bit too much.

EDIT: Also, Garnet trying statuses on almost any FE-er there is asking her to kill your party. Her statuses aren't turn one either, they're getting hurt further by evade and they're also being countered. Dangerous idea there, you probably need Chemist's Blind to be MT, which is why I decided to not think about that fight one way or another.

Ness is NOT faster than Chemist. Ness is about 0.93x speed, Chemist is 0.98x. Lucario is about 1.1x speed, while Cray w/Speed? goes up to 1.44x or so. The difference is noticeable enough.

Also, Garnet can be countered, but she won't be doubled. And as I said before, they all only 3HKO, Marth excluded (who gets his weapon nuked regardless). They only one with a reliably dangerous critical is Lyn. If she goes for the status on someone, it'll be Roy. I have two other healers that are doing nothing but so.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Actually, Garnet is 2HKOed by average physical damage, so yes most of them 2HKO her. <_< Although you're right, Chemist is not as slow as I thought. However, the only thing this does is making Lucario/Charizard attack Chemist (who is still frail) instead, and nothing else is changed - any two of the -three- Pokémon that go before Chemist 2HKO him and you can only kill one out of three. Goobye revivers still applies in full effect, and now Ness even has -more- leeway to choose what to do, although he'll probably just opt for the ID anyway because MT ID is hax like that, and Adray is still slower than him. That's game. The underlying issue with your strategy is essentially that it, deep down, begs us to buy the idea of Orlandu soloing the fight, and that's just too much suspension of disbelief for my tastes. Way too much.

[ThePiggyman]

Actually, Garnet is 2HKOed by average damage, so yes most of them 2HKO her. <_< Although you're right, Chemist is not as slow as I thought. However, the only thing this does is making Lucario/Charizard attack Chemist (who is still frail) instead, and nothing else is changed - any two of the -three- Pokémon that go before Chemist 2HKO him and you can only kill one out of three. Goobye revivers still applies in full effect, and now Ness even has -more- leeway to choose what to do, although he'll probably just opt for the ID anyway because MT ID is hax like that, and Adray is still slower than him. That's game. The underlying issue with your strategy that it, deep down, begs us to buy the idea of Orlandu soloing the fight, and that's just too much suspension of disbelief for my tastes. Way too much.

Adray can now kill off Lucario now, though, with Titan Fist (which is an Earthquake-esque attack, so it IS ground, not Rock). That's just one less target for Orlandu to worry about taking out. It's Ness, 'zard and Blast against Orlandu now, so that's that much pressure off him. He probably CAN kill off either 'zard or Blast, thanks to the initial summon, and he still has a speed advantage. Ness is slow, and if you do grant Orlandu the Thief Hat (which I'm thinking you already have, otherwise, I would have been dead to you long before), that just gives him even MORE speed. I know he's dropping damage for it all, but Odin's done a fair deal of damage. He still has the Ice Shield, too, and immunes the status effects that would disable him that Ness can pull off anyways. He's lapping them with time, and if he can keep up with Night Swords (which he can, only Blast and Ness can effectively hurt him, thanks the Ice Shield), and both of them are below average speed. Ness is gonna try to be reviving people anyways.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Actually, Garnet is 2HKOed by average damage, so yes most of them 2HKO her. <_< Although you're right, Chemist is not as slow as I thought. However, the only thing this does is making Lucario/Charizard attack Chemist (who is still frail) instead, and nothing else is changed - any two of the -three- Pokémon that go before Chemist 2HKO him and you can only kill one out of three. Goobye revivers still applies in full effect, and now Ness even has -more- leeway to choose what to do, although he'll probably just opt for the ID anyway because MT ID is hax like that, and Adray is still slower than him. That's game. The underlying issue with your strategy that it, deep down, begs us to buy the idea of Orlandu soloing the fight, and that's just too much suspension of disbelief for my tastes. Way too much.

Adray can now kill off Lucario now, though, with Titan Fist (which is an Earthquake-esque attack, so it IS ground, not Rock).

What makes you assume Adray will be -alive- to kill Lucario? Adray is sluggish (the walking speed in the topic is long-term, so his first turn should definitely lag, and there's the speed issues that come with SO3 magic even in chains), definitely slower than Ness to me, and is ID-bait at this point like every non-Orlandu PC. Also, what is the chain you're proposing that will get Lucario killed? SO3 magic damage only registers on the curve via combos and the combo has to be viable - and given how Adray's best damage is not far from game-worst to begin with, it's entirely possible that Adray fails to kill Lucario even with weakness.

That's just one less target for Orlandu to worry about taking out. It's Ness, 'zard and Blast against Orlandu now, so that's that much pressure off him.

It's still four against one, and he's still getting 2HKOed. Remember, Orlandu is sorta frail off the setup he has to go for if he wants to get a second turn, and he's also gimped on damage because he can't equip for damage in any way with the amount of status he has to block, not to mention that Orlandu's mdur is shit when he's not walling elements - none of which he is except maybe Fire, which isn't saving him here. Also, Garnet's damage with Odin is probably average at best, and I'd kneejerk it getting resisted by Lucario to begin with. FF9 curve applies, so the amount of people Orlandu can kill in the immediate next blow is reduced to Charizard, because Lucario resists his offense and Blastoise is actually tanky. Problems abound. He could kill Ness next, but he's still having to deal with three Pokés then, all of which 2HKO him. So um yeah. Whoever he tries to aim for leaves him open anyway, and that's assuming absolutely no status gets Orlandu at all, which obviously has its own share of generosity.

[dude789]

Titan Fist and Odin do not kill Lucario. Sure Lucario's weak to Titan Fist, but he halves Odin and even doubled Titan Fist is not that dangerous.  Additionally Charizard has scary face to counter Speed, and if he  uses it on Chemist, Ness becomes faster.

[ThePiggyman]

Actually, Garnet is 2HKOed by average damage, so yes most of them 2HKO her. <_< Although you're right, Chemist is not as slow as I thought. However, the only thing this does is making Lucario/Charizard attack Chemist (who is still frail) instead, and nothing else is changed - any two of the -three- Pokémon that go before Chemist 2HKO him and you can only kill one out of three. Goobye revivers still applies in full effect, and now Ness even has -more- leeway to choose what to do, although he'll probably just opt for the ID anyway because MT ID is hax like that, and Adray is still slower than him. That's game. The underlying issue with your strategy that it, deep down, begs us to buy the idea of Orlandu soloing the fight, and that's just too much suspension of disbelief for my tastes. Way too much.

Adray can now kill off Lucario now, though, with Titan Fist (which is an Earthquake-esque attack, so it IS ground, not Rock).

What makes you assume Adray will be -alive- to kill Lucario? Adray is sluggish (the walking speed in the topic is long-term, so his first turn should definitely lag, and there's the speed issues that come with SO3 magic even in chains), definitely slower than Ness to me, and is ID-bait at this point like every non-Orlandu PC. Also, what is the chain you're proposing that will get Lucario killed? SO3 magic damage only registers on the curve via combos and the combo has to be viable - and given how Adray's best damage is not far from game-worst to begin with, it's entirely possible that Adray fails to kill Lucario even with weakness.

That's just one less target for Orlandu to worry about taking out. It's Ness, 'zard and Blast against Orlandu now, so that's that much pressure off him.

It's still four against one, and he's still getting 2HKOed. Remember, Orlandu is sorta frail off the setup he has to go for if he wants to get a second turn, and he's also gimped on damage because he can't equip for damage in any way with the amount of status he has to block, not to mention that Orlandu's mdur is shit when he's not walling elements - none of which he is except maybe Fire, which isn't saving him here. Also, Garnet's damage with Odin is probably average at best, and I'd kneejerk it getting resisted by Lucario to begin with. FF9 curve applies, so the amount of people Orlandu can kill in the immediate next blow is reduced to Charizard, because Lucario resists his offense and Blastoise is actually tanky. Problems abound. He could kill Ness next, but he's still having to deal with three Pokés then, all of which 2HKO him. So um yeah. Whoever he tries to aim for leaves him open anyway, and that's assuming absolutely no status gets Orlandu at all, which obviously has its own share of generosity.

Adray's from an ARPG, I would figure that most people place him at average speed, at the very least on his first turn. Lucario's being hit by an Odin, which registers as a fair deal of damage, and Titan Fist is hitting a 2x weakness. Lucario, I'll add, has below average Defense AND Special Defense AND HP, so it's very possible that, even WITH near-game-worst damage, that he DOES kill Lucario.

And for that reason, I'm saying it's three against one. Even without his great equips, and missing the Bracer, he still does enough damage (not nearly close to PCHP, like he originally was, but I can see it doing 0.5~). And Charizard, keep in mind, has his damage halved, so he isn't 2HKO-ing. Once he kills off Ness, the biggest worry becomes Blastoise, and he's still recovering his own HP. Blastoise's best damage isn't even that spectacular anyways, and add that Charizard's damage is dropping heavily, there's chance that he DOES live through both of them. In fact, there's a chance he LAPS them, and secures a kill on one of them.

Titan Fist and Odin do not kill Lucario. Sure Lucario's weak to Titan Fist, but he halves Odin and even doubled Titan Fist is not that dangerous.  Additionally Charizard has scary face to counter Speed, and if he  uses it on Chemist, Ness becomes faster.

EDIT: To be honest, I don't see why Lucario would half Odin. Odin is non-elemental magic. I would translate Normal as a physical of sorts. But fine, we'll assume he does. I've still got Ifrit, who actually does slightly MORE than Odin, thanks to weakness, and it still kills off Venusaur just fine. Plans remain intact.

[dude789]

You're ignoring that Odin runs into Lucario's steel typing. Also Orlandu does not beat Charizard, Ness and Blastoise if it comes down to it. Charizard and Blastoise both have stat buffs and Ness is great a keeping a team alive. Blaistoise can tail whip and Charizard can scary face Orlandu down till he's really slow and taking a ton of damage. Add the fact that Ness can reduce Orlandu's healing by throwing up shields and Orlandu can not handle all three.

[ThePiggyman]

You're ignoring that Odin runs into Lucario's steel typing. Also Orlandu does not beat Charizard, Ness and Blastoise if it comes down to it. Charizard and Blastoise both have stat buffs and Ness is great a keeping a team alive. Blaistoise can tail whip and Charizard can scary face Orlandu down till he's really slow and taking a ton of damage. Add the fact that Ness can reduce Orlandu's healing by throwing up shields and Orlandu can not handle all three.

Firstly, I don't actually think Odin does run into Lucario's steel typing. But that's just my preference, feel free to disagree. In the case that you do, like I said, Ifrit is a suitable replacement. The initial Scary Face is useless, Chemist likely won't be getting off the Dragon Kiss anyways, so Adray can still kill off Lucario. And if uses it on Adray instead, then Chemist DOES get off Dragon Kiss, and Garnet gets off a second summon, which wreaks havoc.

Orlandu is probably only taking one debuff from Blastoise, seeing as he'll be taken down ASAP. If Charizard debuffs too, that means Orlandu doesn't have to Night Sword. He can kill off Blastoise with a Holy Explosion. And even with a Scary Face, Orlandu's still faster than average, which is STILL faster than Ness. Remember, Orlandu's got that Ice Shield, so Charizard's damage is suddenly pretty poor.

Ness' revival also isn't full, so, in all likelyhood, Orlandu can just take them down again with one blow.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Adray's from an ARPG, I would figure that most people place him at average speed, at the very least on his first turn.

The average speed for all interp on ARPGs is getting more and more atypical, and it's honestly pretty difficult to take seriously in ARPGs where there are very pronounced differences in speed (SO3 being one of these). It's reasonable enough to take on, say, Tales of Phantasia or Tales of Destiny, where speed differences are very trivial for running and recovery, but SO3 certainly has very, -very- pronounced quickness differences, and Adray is near the bottom of the mobility and recovery curve.

Lucario's being hit by an Odin, which registers as a fair deal of damage, and Titan Fist is hitting a 2x weakness.

That's the thing, it's not that much damage. Odin averages like 6k-7, and the FF9 averages by this point are quite likely -above- that by then (could even be at the nearly 8k that they are DL-legally), it's near-endgame, and it arguably  hits into Lucario's Steel typing. Then, you haven't defined how much damage Titan Fist is dealing to begin with either, nor if it's chainable. If it's not a Battle Skill, Titan Fist outright fails at everything because SO3 Menu Magic is low-mid 2-4k for damage, and SO3's damage average hovers around 45k by this point. If it is, you still have to show us a viable combo involving it that lets a Lucario at around 70-80% HP be killed by it, and odds are he can't use it by itself on the chain over and over and still get an appropriate combo. Hitting a weakness doesn't spell instadeath - I mean, CRAY hits a weakness on Lucario, but the half-average damage it deals -after- weakness is so scaring him. Same applies to Adray to that degree: if you can't show why Titan Fist is viable and how besides "butbutbut weakness", I'm sorry.

And Charizard, keep in mind, has his damage halved, so he isn't 2HKO-ing.

Damage-halving with -what-? If you equip a White Robe, you're giving up the ID immunity or the Confusion immunity, -and- getting yourself open to get 2HKOed by Slash because robes suck for HP. If Orlandu's walling an element, he's either doing it with the Flame Shield (which gets him OHKOed by Blastoise due to giving him a Water weakness and not only Blastoise 2HKOs average with his water damage, Orlandu's mdur sucks! Yay) or not at all.

[dude789]

The problem with that is that assement is that it requires that Odin does not run into Lucario's typing because if she goes for Ifrit then Orlandu can't kill off Blastoise or Charizard. Also Scary face halves speed, haste multiplies speed by 1.5. He's not above average after a Scary Face.

[ThePiggyman]

Adray's from an ARPG, I would figure that most people place him at average speed, at the very least on his first turn.

The average speed for all interp on ARPGs is getting more and more atypical, and it's honestly pretty difficult to take seriously in ARPGs where there are very pronounced differences in speed (SO3 being one of these). It's reasonable enough to take on, say, Tales of Phantasia or Tales of Destiny, where speed differences are very trivial for running and recovery, but SO3 certainly has very, -very- pronounced quickness differences, and Adray is near the bottom of the mobility and recovery curve.

Lucario's being hit by an Odin, which registers as a fair deal of damage, and Titan Fist is hitting a 2x weakness.

That's the thing, it's not that much damage. Odin averages like 6k-7, and the FF9 averages by this point are quite likely -above- that by then (could even be at the nearly 8k that they are DL-legally), it's near-endgame, and it arguably  hits into Lucario's Steel typing. Then, you haven't defined how much damage Titan Fist is dealing to begin with either, nor if it's chainable. If it's not a Battle Skill, Titan Fist outright fails at everything because SO3 Menu Magic is low-mid 2-4k for damage, and SO3's damage average hovers around 45k by this point. If it is, you still have to show us a viable combo involving it that lets a Lucario at around 70-80% HP be killed by it, and odds are he can't use it by itself on the chain over and over and still get an appropriate combo. Hitting a weakness doesn't spell instadeath - I mean, CRAY hits a weakness on Lucario, but the half-average damage it deals -after- weakness is so scaring him. Same applies to Adray to that degree: if you can't show why Titan Fist is viable and how besides "butbutbut weakness", I'm sorry.

And Charizard, keep in mind, has his damage halved, so he isn't 2HKO-ing.

Damage-halving with -what-? If you equip a White Robe, you're giving up the ID immunity or the Confusion immunity, -and- getting yourself open to get 2HKOed by Slash because robes suck for HP. If Orlandu's walling an element, he's either doing it with the Flame Shield (which gets him OHKOed by Blastoise! Yay) or not at all.

What you think of that is up to your intepretation. I save myself the headache, and give ARPG characters average speed, and only use movement speed as a tiebreak for other characters with average speed. Although I completely understand if you think otherwise, and just have to hope you still see him as faster than Ness.

Titan Fist: All I have is a video to show it for it, but he seemed to be using it fairly quickly, and it was an attack with a pretty wide AoE, so it gives him time to pull it off, seeing as he doesn't have to close in his enemy. The damage was about 10k.

Also, the ICE Shield halves Fire, and has no effect on Water. THAT'S what I'm halving with, at no status immunity costs.

EDIT: And dude, my apologies, I thought Scary Face was only a third decrease, like most other Pokemon debuffs. Keep in mind, he still arguably has the Thief Hat, so his speed's still not completely destroyed. I think it would put him slightly below average, but those debuffs fade, don't they? And every turn he debuffs, he's letting Orlandu let rip on him.