Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Monado Mandala Week 15

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

So, with the Ice Shield you... still get 2HKOed? Don't see how it makes a difference, Char's physical damage isn't much below his magical damage and, as said before, Orlandu's magical durability against elements he doesn't wall is trash.

EDIT: Also, 20k (the damage -after- weakness) is around half-average damage. That's not cutting it. I'll have to check the topic to see what Adray can do with Titan Fist, but it so sounds not enough, 20% after weakness is applied is just terrible.

EDIT 2:

* Jo'ou Ranbu checks Titan Fist.

Okay, so it's a Battle Skill, but it's also a notable drop from Emotion Torrent, which already stands at 25k damage. At best, I could see it dealing slightly above 40k -after- weakness, which is very questionable whether it kills Lucario or not, and definitely doesn't kill him if you see Odin ramming into Steel typing. Even if you do see Adray getting in his offense, there's a good chance he doesn't manage to handle Lucario with it, and seeing that happen is already giving him a judgment call he may not deserve. Yeah, this looks really bad.   

[ThePiggyman]

So, with the Ice Shield you... still get 2HKOed? Don't see how it makes a difference, Char's physical damage isn't much below his magical damage and, as said before, Orlandu's magical durability against elements he doesn't wall is trash.

EDIT: Also, 20k (the damage -after- weakness) is around half-average damage. That's not cutting it. I'll have to check the topic to see what Adray can do with Titan Fist, but it so sounds not enough, 20% after weakness is applied is just terrible.

The damage average hovers closer to 30,000, actually. His damage isn't going to be THAT dreadful. And Char's best damage is going to be Wing Attack, which is about a 3HKO of some sorts. I'm going off FRLG.

EDIT: But honestly, I believe I've said all that I can. Adding any more at this point would just be whining. I just have to cross my fingers, and hope you guys swing the interps in my favour on this one. I've voted myself a pass, but I can very, very much understand why you would disagree so easily. It's been fun. ;p

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

So, with the Ice Shield you... still get 2HKOed? Don't see how it makes a difference, Char's physical damage isn't much below his magical damage and, as said before, Orlandu's magical durability against elements he doesn't wall is trash.

EDIT: Also, 20k (the damage -after- weakness) is around half-average damage. That's not cutting it. I'll have to check the topic to see what Adray can do with Titan Fist, but it so sounds not enough, 20% after weakness is applied is just terrible.

The damage average hovers closer to 30,000, actually. His damage isn't going to be THAT dreadful. And Char's best damage is going to be Wing Attack, which is about a 3HKO of some sorts. I'm going off FRLG.

A 3HKO+Blastoise 2HKO is enough running off Orlandu Faith. And yeah, I'm doing some adaptation, but that's also an average that doesn't factor Berserk (which I use), and I remember Adray looking worse on -that-. But I just use it hand-wavily nowadays due to not having that topic anymore.

[Clear Tranquil]

I have my doubts as to whether Adray's damage is as completely unsalvagable as that (10k) with Berserk + Biter applying. Titan Fist is one of those moves (Aerial Assault, Flying Torpedo, Palm of Destruction, etc) that easily reaches the 99'999 cap w/th ATK boosting and/or weakness hitting. I've had Adray as explosive offence w/th Titan Fist vs earth weak enemies in the main game. Of course I was also using Peppita so yeah.

Denying an Anti-Incapacitation Amulet is a bit harsh Snow. The best PC inventors (Peppita, Roger, Sophia) are able to create them (well Peppita is the creator, they add to the talent levels to increase the chance of success) So a crafting team of Peppita, Adray, Roger/Sophia would also work. Stanice is also able to create and patent Anti-Incapacitation Amulet for stores. She's an NPC but she's the earliest NPC crafter irrc, round the Peterny arc. YMMV though yeah.

Edit: Wow Titan Fist is more brutal vs earth weak than I remembered even w/o Power Dance -

X - 6'000+ Base
O - 20'000+ 175%
X - 20'000+ 200%
O - 30'000+ 250%

Fun fact: The enemies kept dying before I could have Adray reach 300% during testing! He does have the fury for another X though so estimate another 20'000+ or so. Also I have rounded the figures to the nearest zero, the values do flutuate in game.

Potential (Titan Fist > Titan Fist to 300%) - 96'000+ vs earth weak

Adray L61 w/th Biter.

However I also checked menu stuffs after this shocking revelation and discovered Titan Fist was on L5 >_> Even so Titan Fist vs Earth is 400% on X and 800% on O compared to the non elemental Faerie Friend (1000% on X, 1500% on O)

Hope this is making sense to peeps >_>

And yeah, I'm doing some adaptation, but that's also an average that doesn't factor Berserk (which I use), and I remember Adray looking worse on -that-. But I just use it hand-wavily nowadays due to not having that topic anymore.

Those averages didn't even factor in the offence increase from cancel bonuses either irrc just from Berserk.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I have my doubts as to whether Adray's damage is as completely unsalvagable as that (10k) with Berserk + Biter applying.

You have to keep in mind that the averages also skyrocket when you apply Berserk, since -everybody- gets it. The damage should end up about as hopeless relatively, particularly given how Adray doesn't get attack-boosting the way he does in-game and it's facing higher figures in general.

Tangentially, I'm harsh on invented stuff in the dungeon because the goddamned system is an obtuse failure that you basically have to tinker with SO3's soulcrushing IC in multiple layers to deal with, and you can't get those equips anywhere else. They're fair game in the DL to me, but I delay their access as much as I can in the dungeon because of how oblique the goddamn thing is. I never even got more than the Poison blocker in-game to boot. I guess I'm just being bitter, but bleh to that.

[Mad Fnorder]

Irrelevant to everything discussed, I never saw the word obliquitous before. It's awesome, I'm stealing it. Now, carry on.

[Clear Tranquil]

Snow is awesme like that yes.

You have to keep in mind that the averages also skyrocket when you apply Berserk, since -everybody- gets it. The damage should end up about as hopeless relatively, particularly given how Adray doesn't get attack-boosting the way he does in-game and it's facing higher figures in general.

*nods* Eh I just don't know yeah. Peppita's averaging 300'000 w/th Berserk but that's with Power Dance factoring. The majority doesn't have the combination of Power Dance w/th Faerie Friend's ridiculously high modifiers to go w/th Berserk so yeah. Not to mention Maria is nerfed DL/dungeon wise with Scatter Beam forced to turn based.

Tangentially, I'm harsh on invented stuff in the dungeon because the goddamned system is an obtuse failure that you basically have to tinker with SO3's soulcrushing IC in multiple layers to deal with, and you can't get those equips anywhere else. They're fair game in the DL to me, but I delay their access as much as I can in the dungeon because of how obliquous the goddamn thing is. I never even got more than the Poison blocker in-game to boot. I guess I'm just being bitter, but bleh to that.

*nods* Well I know the Poison blocker is accessable from a chest as are the Paralysis, Stone and Freeze blockers, which you can patent to the stores without having to deal with hands on creation but yeah doesn't apply to the ID blocker irrc. Clone Generators are store bought! *shot*!

Heheh well I'll allow Adray the amulet if only because I've never found crafting particularly frustrating myself (except for orichalcums/boots of prowess dear god) at least w/th regards to basic accessories (admittably I use this handy FAQ/IC calculator thingy) and because Piggy is sooooo close to F7 (final trial of F6) but yeah I completely understand your frustration on/the failureness of SO3's system overall. I used to debate with someone who ranted on the uselessness of Peppita because IC existed. Yeah.

Teams vs dungeon

[OblivionKnight]

Pffffftt obliquitous.  Big words no make smart. 

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

* Jo'ou Ranbu retcons. I actually meant oblique. I hate the fact that English isn't my first language sometimes.

[DjinnAndTonic]

oblique + ubiquitous = olbliquitous

It's only logical.

[ThePiggyman]

Alright, this is my last try to convince you guys. I tried my best, and have tried to stay realistic enough. ;p

Now, what if we took a Speed-twinked Orlandu (no status blockers), and Cray speed boosted him? This would put him at over 2.5x speed, easily enough to lap Ness' below average speed. Orlandu would let off an initial Holy Explosion (I mathed out at about 0.92 PCHP, with speed-twinked equips, surprisingly). Now, much to my bewilderment, Me First goes into effect even before the attack is executed, which is retarded, it assumes that Lucario can predict whatever attack Orlandu's going to pull off. I mean, does anyone share my bafflement about this? If Lucario uses Me First, it has to be used on someone before they act, but they haven't actually chosen what they're going to do until after Lucario's acted. I mean, if he used Me First, and executed the attack only AT THE POINT where the person he used it on proceeded to act, I'd comprehend that, but... <.<

Alas, I'll roll with it. So, instead of unleashing a second Holy Explosion, what about a Night Sword? It's much weaker than a Holy Explosion, and has parasitic healing attached to it anyways (Orlandu -arguably- survives, and if he does, it's just barely. He could even lower a few points in PA, to ensure he survives his own Night Sword. In advance, I'm aware that Me First is 1.5x damage). However, either way, going for Me First on Orlandu means that Garnet's open to summon (her most powerful of which hovers around ~0.5 PCHP, and if she goes for an elemental one, the Pokemon are gonna be hurting, too). With that kind of damage on him, either Chemist or Adray can potentially kill Ness off. Charizard's still got an attack, but he's either finishing off Orlandu (who may have very well lapped him, Orlandu's speed is MONSTROUS at this point), or hurting Chemist/Adray. Not both. We'll say Chemist gets put to sleep (and those odds aren't even 100%, I'll remind you), and Adray finishes the job with a combo. The other way around, Chemist can use a Succubus Kiss (its damage is actually not that horrible, it's around 0.3 PCHP, not to mention, he can heal himself from some of the damage that Blastoise/Charizard may have caused). Ness is almost exactly equal to 1.7 PCHP. Those three blows oughta be enough to take Ness out!

It's now the four Pokemons against my team, 'cept Orlandu might be dead, but even so, I have three revivers on the job, two of which have either not been touched, or remain in healthy condition. I can manage! I'm in no way saying I win this fight easily, but I can pull through it alive.

EDIT: Keep in mind, Ness has below average defense, despite that insane HP score. Holy Explosion, the summon and Adray's Combo may well do a little more than I put them as.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Alright, this is my last try to convince you guys. I tried my best, and have tried to stay realistic enough. ;p

Now, what if we took a Speed-twinked Orlandu (no status blockers), and Cray speed boosted him? This would put him at over 2.5x speed, easily enough to lap Ness' below average speed. Orlandu would let off an initial Holy Explosion (I mathed out at about 0.92 PCHP, with speed-twinked equips, surprisingly). Now, much to my bewilderment, Me First goes into effect even before the attack is executed, which is retarded, it assumes that Lucario can predict whatever attack Orlandu's going to pull off. I mean, does anyone share my bafflement about this? If Lucario uses Me First, it has to be used on someone before they act, but they haven't actually chosen what they're going to do until after Lucario's acted. I mean, if he used Me First, and executed the attack only AT THE POINT where the person he used it on proceeded to act, I'd comprehend that, but... <.<

Initiative attacks are funny that way, but if you're going to deny him that, are you going to deny Nina1 her initiative healing? TL's initiative Overdrive? That's a problem common to all TB-initiative. I haven't seen you even pointing out ever about these things being problems either. It's part of the game, and even given the way I take initiative (TB cap hit, so 200% average speed), he'd outpace Orlandu that way, who is 1.6x average speed and would be incapable of overturning even Lucario that way (I also force TB speed boosters to hit the cap, so Orlandu would cap out at 2x average speed to me) off my interps. Complicated business there.

[ThePiggyman]

Alright, this is my last try to convince you guys. I tried my best, and have tried to stay realistic enough. ;p

Now, what if we took a Speed-twinked Orlandu (no status blockers), and Cray speed boosted him? This would put him at over 2.5x speed, easily enough to lap Ness' below average speed. Orlandu would let off an initial Holy Explosion (I mathed out at about 0.92 PCHP, with speed-twinked equips, surprisingly). Now, much to my bewilderment, Me First goes into effect even before the attack is executed, which is retarded, it assumes that Lucario can predict whatever attack Orlandu's going to pull off. I mean, does anyone share my bafflement about this? If Lucario uses Me First, it has to be used on someone before they act, but they haven't actually chosen what they're going to do until after Lucario's acted. I mean, if he used Me First, and executed the attack only AT THE POINT where the person he used it on proceeded to act, I'd comprehend that, but... <.<

Initiative attacks are funny that way, but if you're going to deny him that, are you going to deny Nina4 her initiative healing? TL's initiative Overdrive? That's a problem common to all TB-initiative. I haven't seen you even pointing out ever about these things being problems either. It's part of the game, and even given the way I take initiative (TB cap hit, so 200% average speed), he'd outpace Orlandu that way, who is 1.6x average speed and would be incapable of overturning even Lucario that way (I also force TB speed boosters to hit the cap, so Orlandu would cap out at 2x average speed to me) off my interps. Complicated business there.

Point taken, it's just something I felt the need to point out. But it's a little more complex than Nina4's healing, or TL's Overdrive, because it's based on a move that hasn't actually happened, which just seems bizzare. But yes, some TB shenanigans don't exactly tanslate well into a CTB system. Either way, I'll allow it, seeing as it is how it works. Even still, a 2x speed advantage over someone like Ness, who's about 0.93x speed is pretty big.

[Bardiche]

Me First copies any damaging dealing move that the target is about to use and increases the power by 50%, if the foe has not made the first move.

Despite some confusion from the in-game description, Me First will only work if the user is faster than the foe or moves first due to an effect from a Custap Berry or a Quick Claw. If the foe is faster than the user, Me First will fail to copy the attack. If the foe uses a non-damaging move, Me First will fail.

That's Me First's description as of Bulbapedia right now. It does not have initiative, but it actually copies whereas I thought it was just mimicking the damage. Take that as you will.

[Clear Tranquil]

... I am just bloody confused.

User - Lucario?
Foe - Orlandu?

... so Me First fails because the foe (Orlandu) is faster than the user (Lucario?)

[Bardiche]

Fairly willing to respect that inclination.

The question is, can Orlandu switch equipment before the fight, and if not, can he last through the floor with the speed setup?

[Nephrite]

He can change his accessory only.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

* Jo'ou Ranbu also checks.

Ah, right, why relying on Speed'd Orlandu works poorly: it just means the fast Pokés bumrush him as soon as they get turns, and due to his shit MDef, Aura Sphere Lucario (Aura Sphere is above average NE, unevadable magical damage)+Slash Charizard off a sub-optimal for HP setup (which he needs in order to immune Confuse and ID) sould 2HKO him, and he doesn't double them off the bat either. "But then Garnet revives!", you say? Doesn't matter: he revives at a really low HP threshold (she doesn't get Full-Life) and now she didn't deal damage on her turn, so hey look Venusaur isn't dead and statuses Adray/kills Orlandu again, and Ness getting a turn, once again, means your party is in fucking dire straits. Yeah, don't see this panning out. 

[ThePiggyman]

* Jo'ou Ranbu also checks.

Ah, right, why relying on Speed'd Orlandu works poorly: it just means the fast Pokés bumrush him as soon as they get turns, and due to his shit MDef, Aura Sphere Lucario (Aura Sphere is above average NE, unevadable magical damage)+Slash Charizard off a sub-optimal for HP setup (which he needs in order to immune Confuse and ID) sould 2HKO him, and he doesn't double them off the bat either. "But then Garnet revives!", you say? Doesn't matter: he revives at a really low HP threshold (she doesn't get Full-Life) and now she didn't deal damage on her turn, so hey look Venusaur isn't dead and statuses Adray/kills Orlandu again, and Ness getting a turn, once again, means your party is in fucking dire straits. Yeah, don't see this panning out.  

He won't need those status blockers, though, seeing as MY plan is to bumrush Ness. Orlandu's getting a blow, Garnet's getting a summon, and either Adray is getting a combo (which I understand you don't respect much anyways, but it doesn't need to much damage, it only needs to be about 0.3~ PCHP to kill off Ness at that point), or Chemist is using a Succubus Kiss (which is enough). And at THAT point, it's the Pokemon vs. my team. I personally don't see Lucario and Charizard as killing Orlandu, especially if Lucario can't use Me First. Charizard's best damage becomes Slash (which is physical), and the speed-twinks don't lower his HP THAT much. Venusaur has to sleep either Adray or Chemist (if they both get a turn, then one of them can heal after the other kills off Orlandu). Blastoise can finish off Orlandu at this point (or hurt someone else, if you think Orlandu's already dead). All the Pokemons have already been hurt by a summon, and I've only got Orlandu down. Adray/Chemist are potentially not even asleep, seeing as the hit rate on Sleep Powder isn't perfect anyways. Cray's speed might suck now, but he, too, is getting another turn soon, which he can either finish off a Pokemon with, or buff one of the revivers.

EDIT:

Fairly willing to respect that inclination.

The question is, can Orlandu switch equipment before the fight, and if not, can he last through the floor with the speed setup?

Orlandu doesn't need to switch equipment. Speed-twinked, with Excalibur, his damage is still extremely good (0.92 PCHP), so the previous fights aren't affected by this.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

That's the problem. You -can't- bumrush Ness if Orlandu dies even once. Ness is going to get a turn -regardless of what you do-, which doesn't seem to enter your head. Orlandu isn't going to insta-lap him even after Speed, which he absolutely needs for that to work, and speed-twinking does less for his speed than you'd think. A Succubus Kiss is going to stop one PC from dying, and... so what? They still are vulnerable to the 2HKO madness of the party. And given how even HP-twinked Orlandu is like 1.06x PC HP, I'd honestly bet money that any setup that doesn't involve Orlandu fully twinking for durability gets him Lucario'd and Charizard'd (and if you're not taking twinked setups against twinked averages, I'm thwapping you in the head with a rolled-up newspaper >_>) because the Faith is pretty bad. And if you're bumrushing Ness, you're not getting rid of Venusaur, etc. You can't kill Ness before he gets a turn period, which means the plan is doomed to fail. It just doesn't make any difference. If you try to cover one hole, you're leaving another one unattended, and any gap = death there. Killing anybody in your turn before Ness gets a turn completely screws over your strategy, and Speed'ing just means that they shuffle who they kill based on who presents the bigger theoretical threat.   

[ThePiggyman]

You can't kill Ness before he gets a turn period, which means the plan is doomed to fail. It just doesn't make any difference.    

Ness' HP = 1.7 PCHP.

Holy Explosion from Orlandu = 0.92 PCHP
Summon from Garnet = 0.5~ PCHP
Succubus Kiss from Chemist = 0.3~ PCHP
Adray combo = 0.32 PCHP

Totalling, at the very least, 1.72 PCHP. Killing off Ness. I'm not even factoring the fact that Ness' defense is BELOW AVERAGE.
Am I missing something?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Garnet doesn't have Ark to me yet (that's floor 7 as far as I'm concerned), so lower that figure a peg for her. I also take Adray's damage as lower due to looking worse on Berserk averages (I think he only beat Albel or something pathetic like that on offense), so yet another peg. So yeah, you're missing a little bit. I'd also have to look Orlandu's damage up off the setup you're assuming (and do keep in mind that EB defense is irrelevant, it has essentially no effect on Ness' durability).

[ThePiggyman]

Garnet doesn't have Ark yet, so lower that figure a peg for her. I also take Adray's damage as lower due to looking worse on Berserk averages (I think he only beat Albel or something pathetic like that on offense). So yeah, you're missing a little bit. I'd also have to look Orlandu's damage up off the setup you're assuming (and do keep in mind that EB defense is irrelevant, it has essentially no effect on Ness' durability).

0.92 IS the set-up I'm assuming. Garnet doesn't have Ark, but she has Odin w/ Odin's Sword, which is still pretty close, seeing as Ark hits the cap, and Odin only misses it slightly. This is F6, not end-game, so not -everyone- is hitting insane damage yet.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Odin misses the cap by 1-2k from my recollection. Garnet is also one of the last to hit their final damage spikes due to Ark being so late (Eiko hits it with Madeen, which is earlier, you could argue Freya already hit it due to Dragon's Crest - which I personally buy - Wing Edges for Amarant should be available by floor 6, etc, Quina hits its curve long ago, Steiner probably has it as well, which leaves Vivi, Zidane - who always fails - and uh Garnet. Yeah, not that far).

And, given your own calculations and how Ness -barely dies- by four people attacking him, um. If Orlandu's been Speed'd, wouldn't it be in their best interests to kill -someone else- (can be either Garnet or Chemist, any of them dying screws you up there) before he goes, and now that Orlandu is entirely vulnerable to status and running off his shitty MDef, wouldn't that just make it entirely pointless (i.e. Ness tosses Flash, and now -your entire party dies-, including Orlandu because he forfeited his ID-immunity equips)? Orlandu isn't above 1.6x~ speed even twinked for it due to everybody wearing Thief Hats being factored in, and Orlandu juuuuust misses the insta-double Ness mark anyway off that setup anyway. That doesn't work. Orlandu needs to block status there if he doesn't want to be incapacitated, and if he does that, he's sacrificing either damage or durability, both of which prove instantly fatal.

EDIT:

* Jo'ou Ranbu checks a bit further.

Okay, default setup (with Bracer) Orlandu deals 364 damage with Holy Explosion to an average of 181. That's 80% PC HP. From what I see, his damage off the setup you suggested is only 92% PC HP if you take it against the default average, which is obviously out for me (twinked setups should face twinked averages to me, etc.). So no, odds are Orlandu still misses 2HKOing Ness by himself, and anyone falling in that attempt to bumrush means you're defeated. Yeah, poor form.

[ThePiggyman]

Odin misses the cap by 1-2k from my recollection. Garnet is also one of the last to hit their final damage spikes due to Ark being so late (Eiko hits it with Madeen, which is earlier, you could argue Freya already hit it due to Dragon's Crest - which I personally buy - Wing Edges for Amarant should be available by floor 6, etc, Quina hits its curve long ago, Steiner probably has it as well, which leaves Vivi, Zidane - who always fails - and uh Garnet. Yeah, not that far).

Well, anything else from that point is more or less irrelevant. If you don't see Ness as dying to that rush (which I find pretty harsh, but it's your call), it's like you say, if Ness gets a turn, I'm more or less done for. But, hopefully someone else buys the rush.

(You can ignore this next part, Snow, it only assumes that Ness got killed, which isn't happening for you)
Now, I know that, even if Ness DOES die, it'll still be a close fight, but if Lucario and Charizard don't try to kill off Orlandu with their turn, he's going again without a doubt (he's been Speed'd by Cray, which puts him OVER 2x speed, or exactly at 2x, if you guys cap it). When Ness is down, they lose what makes that fight so difficult. They lose healing, they lose revival, and the only status they have left is Venusaur's not-perfect Sleep Powder. Hell, Garnet can summon (assuming she's alive, but if she's dead, that means Orlandu isn't). With an Ifrit (which Orlandu still halves, and Garnet can afford to ATLEAST halve, if not outright immune), I can likely take out Venusaur and Lucario (the latter which has below average MDEF). Me First isn't THAT threatening, since Ifrit isn't that strong anyways. The only thing that makes it effective against those two is their weakness to it.