Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Monado Mandala Week 15

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

If they don't try to kill Orlandu that turn, actually, Orlandu has to contend with Venusaur Sleep Powder anyway, and given your numbers, your party misses the KO on Ness -period- if he gives up his Bracer for a blocker, and, as said before, your party focusing on Ness means it misses killing Venusaur (Venusaur isn't frail physically and is actually sorta tanky to magic). And Venusaur is also faster than Chemist, and Chemist doesn't immune Sleep and... um yeah.

[ThePiggyman]

If they don't try to kill Orlandu that turn, actually, Orlandu has to contend with Venusaur Sleep Powder anyway, and given your numbers, your party misses the KO on Ness -period- if he gives up his Bracer for a blocker, and, as said before, your party focusing on Ness means it misses killing Venusaur (Venusaur isn't frail physically and is actually sorta tanky to magic). And Venusaur is also faster than Chemist, and Chemist doesn't immune Sleep and... um yeah.

Alright, I get it. It comes down to a few things. If Orlandu (with Excalibur, no Bracer, and an Ice Shield), buffed by Cray's 50% Speed buff (which would bring him from 1.6~ to 2.4~) is enough to double-turn Ness and Blastoise (who are both below average speed), and whether he survives a Lucario/Charizard attack (the latter who has his best damage halved, and needs to use physicals on Orlandu). If Venusaur kills off Orlandu (which he has to, otherwise, a double ensues), that means both Adray and Chemist get their turns, which they can finish off Ness with. It's a biiiig swing of interps in my way, but it's what I need to pass.

I'm well aware that you outright think Orlandu is dead regardless, but it's for others. I don't have much else to add, and I'll leave it at that from here. I know it's still a tough fight afterwards, but it's much more manageable.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

If they don't try to kill Orlandu that turn, actually, Orlandu has to contend with Venusaur Sleep Powder anyway, and given your numbers, your party misses the KO on Ness -period- if he gives up his Bracer for a blocker, and, as said before, your party focusing on Ness means it misses killing Venusaur (Venusaur isn't frail physically and is actually sorta tanky to magic). And Venusaur is also faster than Chemist, and Chemist doesn't immune Sleep and... um yeah.

I'm well aware that you outright think Orlandu is dead regardless, but it's for others. I don't have much else to add, and I'll leave it at that from here. I know it's still a tough fight afterwards, but it's much more manageable.

Oh, I know. I'm also leaving for others that I'm eyeing crucial holes on your strategy, which hurt the general effectiveness of your idea even taking distinct interps into account. Remember, by your own numbers, the only way you manage to kill Ness without an Orlandu double (which I doubt a lot of people will buy due to turn-based speed caps ramming into the whole issue and all, and Orlandu doesn't get it if his speed is boosted to 2x average) is by having your whole party ransack him, which obviously has problems because anyone in your party can be killed by Charizard+Lucario without any way to mitigate that (Garnet and Chemist are particularly vulnerable), not to mention that Charizard has Fire Spin and that is a 70% chance of robbing Chemist/Adray from their turn if they just need to stall from -that one turn-, and Lucario can Me First on Garnet since he's faster and now the party eats a MT 2HKO...

... yeah, just sorta ugly. I wasn't even taking the possible whorage like Me First and Fire Spin into account against you, and I saw the whole thing as hopeless, but their options are actually crazier than I thought. The enemies have no reason to not adapt their own strategies to yours, and given how they have so many ways to counter them... yeah.

[AndrewRogue]

Only saw this in glancing, but I figured I'd make this fact clear.

Me First copies the opponent's move and multiplies the damage by 1.5x if the user of Me First goes before them.

*nods*

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, hence the "Garnet goes hay look suddenly MT 2HKO unless she wastes her turn" (she may miss the 2HKO on average by herself, but that x1.5...).

[SageAcrin]

Yeah, hence the "Garnet goes hay look suddenly MT 2HKO unless she wastes her turn" (she may miss the 2HKO on average by herself, but that x1.5...).

I don't really buy Garnet being faster than Lucario. Lucario *is* 90 speed base, which is 1/8 above average(Possibly a bit less, but I think Gen 4 had an inordinate amount of slower Pokes or something?). 25/27 isn't really comparable, and there's almost no actual in-game impact from FF9's pitiful speed spread either. SDs be damned there.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, hence the "Garnet goes hay look suddenly MT 2HKO unless she wastes her turn" (she may miss the 2HKO on average by herself, but that x1.5...).

I don't really buy Garnet being faster than Lucario. Lucario *is* 90 speed base, which is 1/8 above average. 25/27 isn't really comparable, and there's almost no actual in-game impact from FF9's pitiful speed spread either. SDs be damned there.

Um, exactly. Lucario is faster than Garnet, and you have to be faster than the opponent for Me First to work. <_<

[ThePiggyman]

Yeah, hence the "Garnet goes hay look suddenly MT 2HKO unless she wastes her turn" (she may miss the 2HKO on average by herself, but that x1.5...).

I don't really buy Garnet being faster than Lucario. Lucario *is* 90 speed base, which is 1/8 above average. 25/27 isn't really comparable, and there's almost no actual in-game impact from FF9's pitiful speed spread either. SDs be damned there.

Um, exactly. Lucario is faster than Garnet, and you have to be faster than the opponent for Me First to work. <_<

Retarded, isn't it? ;p

[Magic Fanatic]

Questions:

Cray's Speed vs. Excalibur's Haste - Do people see those two as working with the other, since they do...  What, exactly the same thing in practice?

Orlandu's doubling of Ness - This implies that he's also doubling Lucario and Charizard before he gets 2HKO'd, right?  Besides, if Cray's casting Speed on Orlandu, Ness....  Is now going before three members of the Piggy's Team, Lucario and Charizard can deal with Garnet, so...

Earth Charm - Makes Ness absolutely LAUGH at pitiful attempts to hurt him with Fire, Ice, and especially Electricity, and this is default equipment!  If Garnet wants to contribute to damage in killing Ness, she's forced to use something that he doesn't resist, and, in translation, something that Piggy's team probably doesn't absorb/null/reduce.  No, really.  Jeff had an Earth Charm, Ness had a Crystal Charm, enemy hit my team with Fire Gamma.  Ness took some large amount of damage, Jeff took...  Somewhere around 4 or 6.  Mock anything else, but if EB does ANYTHING right, it's advertising its elemental resisting.

[ThePiggyman]

Questions:

Cray's Speed vs. Excalibur's Haste - Do people see those two as working with the other, since they do...  What, exactly the same thing in practice?

Orlandu's doubling of Ness - This implies that he's also doubling Lucario and Charizard before he gets 2HKO'd, right?  Besides, if Cray's casting Speed on Orlandu, Ness....  Is now going before three members of the Piggy's Team, Lucario and Charizard can deal with Garnet, so...

Earth Charm - Makes Ness absolutely LAUGH at pitiful attempts to hurt him with Fire, Ice, and especially Electricity, and this is default equipment!  If Garnet wants to contribute to damage in killing Ness, she's forced to use something that he doesn't resist, and, in translation, something that Piggy's team probably doesn't absorb/null/reduce.  No, really.  Jeff had an Earth Charm, Ness had a Crystal Charm, enemy hit my team with Fire Gamma.  Ness took some large amount of damage, Jeff took...  Somewhere around 4 or 6.  Mock anything else, but if EB does ANYTHING right, it's advertising its elemental resisting.

Haste is a status that can be removed. Cray's is more of a stat boost, that needs to be dispelled, rather than removed. As far as I remember, Esuna didn't cure stat breaks in FFT. So I do believe they can be used in unison.

Also, Ness is the last person getting a turn. He's below average speed (0.93), and the slowest on my team is Chemist (0.98).

And Ness is going to be -initially- hit by Odin w/ Odin's Sword, assuming Lucario tries to kill Orlandu. If Lucario goes for Me First on Garnet instead, Garnet can just buff someone, and Orlandu is unharmed. If Garnet CAN get off another summon, that's when it'll be of the elemental sort.

EDIT: Well, correction, she won'tt be buffing anyone, she'll be getting killed off by Charizard. But still, that means Orlandu's alive.

[dude789]

What if Charizard smacks Garnet? Garnet ism't getting a summon off if a Me firsted summon kills her. Then Venusaur can kill/put someone to sleep and Ness should be able to get a turn.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

And you have a party harmed enough that if Chemist isn't healing, Ness kills all of them off with Psi Rockin' Omega to boot! It's honestly pretty hopeless.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Just chiming in that my vote on Piggyman is still holding as a pass because I see Speed'd Orlandu as insta-doubling Ness.

This lets the rest of Piggy's team deal with the Pokemon since they aren't wasting their turns bumrushing Ness.

[ThePiggyman]

What if Charizard smacks Garnet? Garnet ism't getting a summon off if a Me firsted summon kills her. Then Venusaur can kill/put someone to sleep and Ness should be able to get a turn.

This is what's really retarded, and making me want to hurt someone. If Lucario uses Me First on Garnet, Garnet hasn't actually gone yet. Instead of summoning, she can choose to heal/buff, or something. It's not like Garnet's decided to summon yet. In fact, Garnet's move is entirely dependant on what LUCARIO does, but Lucario's move depends on what GARNET does.

WHAT THE FUCK

[Yoshiken]

So, Lucario pretty much has to Me First Garnet if the Dungeon team doesn't want to eat Odin, meaning Garnet's now using something like Protect on... Chemist? Adray? Whatever. If Garnet's Protecting, that means Lucario's Me First fails, but it still needs to be done in order to not see Odin killing stuff. This lets Orlandu double and kill Ness, while the other three Pokemon... Probably take out Chemist/Adray (whichever wasn't protected) and Venusaur's possibly Sleep Powder-ing someone (although, seriously, there is no way Sleep Powder is Turn 1 in-game...)
Which leaves us with what? Orlandu, Chemist/Adray, Garnet and Cray. Against 4 Pokemon. And Chemist/Adray still hasn't moved, so can just revive whichever one was killed. Yeah, there's no way I can see Piggy's team losing from here.
Team Piggyman passes.

[Bardiche]

Alright, I'll buy those arguments.

Changing my votes:

Dungeon VS Teams Tal and Yoshi, but
Teams Sage and Piggy VS Dungeon

[dude789]

We discussed this a bit, but if Cray goes for speed then Charizard can Scary Face Orlandu back down so that he doesn't double Ness. Now Garnet will get off a summon, but Orlandu has  taken a damage hit to equip the sleep blocker. Venusaur puts Chemist to sleep so Orlandu, Garnet and Adray all get hits. Piggy pegs Orlandu's damage at about .75 PC HP with sleep blocker instead of Bracer. Garnet does .5 at the most and Adray does about .3. This totals less than 1.6 which is not enough to kill Ness. So even if Cray uses speed the pokemon team has ways to cover itself.

[Taishyr]

By the time Charizard gets his action Orlandu's close enough to that double that I'm not sure Scary Face stops him in time.

This being said, fuck it, I abstain on any matches from here on involving Lucario.

Including this one. Switching my nay on Piggy to an abstain.

[Monkeyfinger]

Lucario doesn't need me first to screw over team piggy, he can just hit people. Team up with charizard to kill garnet or orlandu, or team up with blastoise to kill chemist while char uses scary face, and let venusaur sleep someone else.

Me first is actually pretty much irrelevant. Whoever he'd want to use it on, he should just go for a kill on instead.

[Clear Tranquil]

I was wondering is this had any relevance?

Sleep Powder can't affect a target that already has a major status ailment.

At the very least Charizard can't Scary Face Orlandu?

I was thinking peeps could status themselves but then remembered their statuses were disabled ;o

[Talaysen]

By the time Charizard gets his action Orlandu's close enough to that double that I'm not sure Scary Face stops him in time.

Considering the speed buff is coming after Orlandu's firsrt turn, and then getting wiped out on Charizard's turn, it's not in effect long enough for Orlandu to still double.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I was wondering is this had any relevance?

Sleep Powder can't affect a target that already has a major status ailment.

At the very least Charizard can't Scary Face Orlandu?

Status is not stat debuffing. You -can- lower the stats of a sleeping opponent in Pokémon, and you -can- Sleep someone who has been debuffed. Not to mention that blocking Slow doesn't block straight speed stat busting in FFT (try immuning Speed Break that way, see how well that goes), and I wouldn't give it the benefit of doubt here either.

I was thinking peeps could status themselves but then remembered their statuses were disabled ;o

The fight would be far more leisurely it that was the case.

EDIT: And yeah, I have no idea why suddenly people are going "BUT OH LUCARIO NEEDS ME FIRST TO SCREW THINGS UP". Me First just makes things really impressively simple. The fact that anyone who matters in this fight gets 2HKOed by Lucario and Charizard and all of them besides Orlandu (no, Cray doesn't really matter <_<) get killed -before they get a turn- and any one of them dying before getting turns = Ness ggs, um yeah.

[SageAcrin]

huh, I was thinking Me First was a high priority move that only worked if the enemy went first, for some reason. Oh well.

I'm still not precisely sure how much I respect guessing games like that, as Lucario's damage can be completely sunk by Garnet choosing to not do what he tries to guess at which point he picks someone else at which point Garnet summons, etc.

Also, it's worthy of note that Me First vs an ATB character is allll sorts of spectacular headache, especially as I tend to stay truer to in-game with this stuff than I would in DL(So I wouldn't even *consider* throwing out waiting.). As such it's simpler to my sanity to just ignore this possibility.

[Dhyerwolf]

Not even sure this is highly relevant, but Piggy's gut check of 50% for Garnet should be about right. It's a notable step down from Ark, but the damage average is really notably lower too (5500ish), so Garnet having at least 25% above average damage sounds about right.

[Clear Tranquil]

Eh I think peeps are assuming that if Garnet's tweaked Odin's Sword (dropped all Ores) then Dragon's Crest, Madeen/Holy, Blue Magic etc are tweaked to their various requirements too >_>

*nods @ Snow* Sorry thought Scary Face was just Slow.

*imagines Garnet blinding herself* Snrkks~