Season 55, Week 2

[Dark Holy Elf]

Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Only one charge of SL? Well!

I'm just going to WTF at this again. Nergal has to take no fewer than 5 Elaine attacks and live to win this battle. That's not too far shy of 2PCHP. Nergal barely takes that much damage UNSCALED. If you have such ridiculously huge respect for SRPG bosses that you take them that way, then okay, just as long as you treat Altima as a 10x PCHP monstrosity.

Snowfire: For what it's worth, Absorb isn't classified as Demi, and does behave differently: hits mHP instead of cHP.

[ThePiggyman]

On a side note, someone remind me to play Mana Khemia one of these days...

Godlike:

Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN)
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT)
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - Absorb works.

Heavy:

Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8)
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - Ehh... I don't know if that ID is turn 1. Leaning no.

Middle:

Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5)
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Only needs one SL.

Light:

Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8)
Colette Brunell (ToS) vs Dominia (XG)

[OblivionKnight]

Piggy - Play Mana Khemia

[Bardiche]

Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Only one charge of SL? Well!

I'm just going to WTF at this again. Nergal has to take no fewer than 5 Elaine attacks and live to win this battle. That's not too far shy of 2PCHP. Nergal barely takes that much damage UNSCALED. If you have such ridiculously huge respect for SRPG bosses that you take them that way, then okay, just as long as you treat Altima as a 10x PCHP monstrosity.

//EDIT: I realise sarcasm may not translate well. So let me state it clearly here:

I think Nergal's better than what you think of him. I think Elaine's not at all good. When I fight Nergal on my playthroughs, he isn't someone I just breeze past. Maybe I use the wrong characters, or whatever, but I use my ingame experience to determine how much I respect a certain character's attributes.

That you disagree, that's cool. That's completely fine, and I respect that. But I do not respect people who are all "omg WTF @ ur opinion" and "okay if u think that THEN YOU MUST THINK THIS WAY AS WELL BECAUSE I SAY SO".

At that point I say, "Go screw yourself". I'm going to vote based on my ingame experience, and not yours.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

What is egregious to him is more that you gave no previous sign of applying any degree of consistency with that - i.e. giving the same monstrous HP respect towards other SRPG bosses that you've given Nergal (and given how Nergal is one of the frailest SRPG bosses ranked around these parts, he honestly doesn't deserve it either). I know that often there are some pretty fierce kneejerks when it comes to matches, but it's worth nagging at glaring discrepancies now and then.

[Ultradude]

Hrm. I guess the full five rounds of Silent Lake really is too much for Nergal to take under my views, and Elaine is pretty much average against magic so no OHKO hype.

Change that vote.

[Bardiche]

I'm afraid I still feel Nergal is durable, even if you do not. That's simply how he came off to me, Snow. But I see your point, and I'll avoid these threads in the future because I simply do not feel like being lambasted because I see things in a different way than you do. If it truly becomes a problem, I am not even going to vote on any more matches where interpretations are involved if that will soothe the anger that is your keyboard.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm afraid I still feel Nergal is durable, even if you do not. That's simply how he came off to me, Snow. But I see your point, and I'll avoid these threads in the future because I simply do not feel like being lambasted because I see things in a different way than you do. If it truly becomes a problem, I am not even going to vote on any more matches where interpretations are involved if that will soothe the anger that is your keyboard.

There's always a measure of "how much", and you're now just being excessively defensive. I honestly -do- want to know how in detail you come to the conclusion of "yes, Nergal can take 2x PC HP worth of damage even though he's not capable of handling that much damage unscaled against DL-legal-only weaponry, and tinking hype doesn't allow for it either because Nergal doesn't come close to tinking an average hit in-game unless you take him against Iron Swords", because the numbers just don't add up.

I'll clarify once again: I'm not screaming at you for having an opinion that is not the same as mine - nor is Elfboy, and if you're interpreting this as that, I am very sorry and very saddened, because not only you are mistaken, you are being very unfair to both of us. The problem is hardly you seeing things differently. However, using that as an excuse to act hurt and persecuted is both infantile and disrespectful.

You are in a discussion board - if you have a point of view and you put it upfront for scrutiny, you are expected to logically and rationally explain it and defend it if someone notes an inconsistency and asks for a clarification. The same applies to me and any other poster. However, all you're doing is "meh opinion stop picking on meeeeeeeeee" and curl up into a ball. That answers nothing and isn't discussion, and that I have to nag on because it's unfruitful. I'm sorry if you feel offended because that wasn't my intention. However, this may highlight you need to think your approach more thoroughly indeed, and base your argumentation further. That is all I ask of you. I'm sure you can do this much, you are an adult, and clearly capable of speaking and acting like one.

[Bardiche]

I am very sorry and very saddened, because not only you are mistaken, you are being very unfair to both of us

You're right. Whoever's day it is today, it is obviously not mine. I admit I am a bit stressed, and a chagrin as a result, so please accept my earnest apologies. I'm not going to make this too long, because I'm already feeling the urgh, so here's my reasoning:

In my ingame experience, Nergal dodged me quite a bit. Elaine did not hit quite a lot. 1 + 1 add up and I armed myself of the idea that Nergal can realistically avoid getting killed by Elaine before Silent Lake runs out and go on the counter-offensive; he already gets in one hit before Silent Lake, and should get in another after it ends, and that is when it is game.

[Ultradude]

You're right. Whoever's day it is today, it is obviously not mine. I admit I am a bit stressed, and a chagrin as a result, so please accept my earnest apologies. I'm not going to make this too long, because I'm already feeling the urgh, so here's my reasoning:

In my ingame experience, Nergal dodged me quite a bit. Elaine did not hit quite a lot. 1 + 1 add up and I armed myself of the idea that Nergal can realistically avoid getting killed by Elaine before Silent Lake runs out and go on the counter-offensive; he already gets in one hit before Silent Lake, and should get in another after it ends, and that is when it is game.

Thinking going with the Accuracy skill covers this? She just drops Armor Protect which doesn't help here, though I guess it comes down to personal respect - Nergal's no Lloyd but he's got somewhat useful evasion against average.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Oh, I see. I guess that's... fair in a vacuum? But lemme check it out, I'm pretty sure Nergal's evade stat is pretty poor (very bad speed)... yeah, 46, that's not impressive. Average hit in FE7 is about 130 (in-game probably closer to 140 due to supports and stat-boosting items if you're so inclined). That gives him less than 20% effective evasion at the most generous, and while Elaine's skill is averagish, she can sacrifice, say, Armor Protect for Accuracy, which should mitigate the evasion and give her no offense loss - nor durability, because Nergal has no physicals, and now he's unlikely to dodge even once. You probably just had people with poor accuracy and no supports trying to hit him if that was the case, or just got horrendously unlucky (happens, but the RNG shouldn't dictate how good a boss is). Also keep in mind that Elaine doubles him FE-style due to his terrible speed, so she's dealing double her normal damage at him, which is part of why he ends up so frail effectively in the DL (but isn't the only component).

[VySaika]

Snow: That latter is only if you let non-FE characters get FE style doubles. I certainly don't, so it's not a universal viewpoint.

[Pyro]

So you don't considers doubles in the DL either way?

[Dark Holy Elf]

I wasn't even including FE doubles in my analysis, yeah. Actually forgot about them! Do allow them, though.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN): Ray's legendary stats are all in offence, not defence. 1.1x average MDef? That -may- make Beat turn 2, but offhand I don't think so. Not sure it matters, Cristo is tanky enough to survive DD + Hyper... maybe not 2x DD + Hyper, though? But I don't think Ray's quite fast enough for a 3-2 even with two Dragon Dances in there (the second barely touches Ray's speed). It's... there's enough judgement calls there that Ray could win, but I don't think so. Might also consider a vote change if someone tested DQ4DS's Whack.

Wait. Ray's best strategy here isn't to buff, it's just to spam Dragon Claw all day. That can't be stopped by Upper, and he doubles well before it runs out of ammo. So.. yeah Cristo really does need that turn 1 ID. One judgement call = switching to abstain for now.

The heck you guys talking about Turn Splits?  Cristo's from a Turn-Based System, Ray's from a Turn-Based System, so their fight would be a Turn-Based Fight.  If Ray uses Dragon Dance, it would allow him a double against Cristo, but only once, on the turn that his relative agility becomes greater than Cristo's (i.e. after the 1st DD).  DD is still a viable move normally though, as it's not just speed that's buffed, but also physical attack... which makes it fail against Buff/Upper...

So, basically, Dragon Claw just puts Cristo into Healall-Lock, but he has enough charges to resist.  Add 3 turns of Outrage for further Heallall-lock, and a casting of Upper on Turn 1 to prevent Ray from KOing Cristo on a Claw+Extremespeed Combo, and you're looking at 47 MP left for the guy.  Long story short, Whack needs to be Turn 3 or better against Ray or Cristo's dead.  (Alternately, Cristo can try for Dazzle for an extra shot or two, but that assumes that Dazzle is Turn 1 or 2.  Wash.)

So... Yeah.  Abstain until someone can get Whack's rate in the DS form.


Toadstool v Joshua:  Josh has the speed to get the 2nd hit for his turn, if Killing Edge doesn't crit on Hit #2, it definitely does the next chance he gets a turn, Crit = 3x Damage = OHKO, Toadstool's Sleep is removed by any damage per Stat topic, and Toadstool can't OHKO.  (Josh can survive 3 Psych Bombs, albeit barely; Frying Pan does 3HKO, but then she's subject to counters.)

Realistically, though, he just does better at the minigames.

If you allow FE-Style Counters for non SRPG opponents of FE characters, then replace OHKO above with 2HKO.

[Taishyr]

Not everyone forbids doubling of the CT type between two TB people, Sir Donald; multiple people just convert everything to CTB.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Also, it's worth pointing out that Ray is faster than Cristo to begin with, so there's no turn 1 Upper coming out to play if Ray just starts using Dragon Claw from the get-go.

[SageAcrin]

I would like to point out at this juncture that Nergal's defense vs DL average offense, if I'm reading this right(I think the topic assumes 10 Defense?) reduces average damage by around 75%. From 23 to 5 for physicals and 3 for magic. Ignoring of course that the averages for the two could be separate if you want to get picky.

Now, granted. Filia's Might exists. How much you want to credit that's your buisiness. (I...tend to consider it bonus, it was a Desert find, I think? and 15 shots. I can really see crediting it a lot, and Nergal is one of the better targets for it, but it tends to weaken how much I care about it myself.) But still, it doesn't take tooooo much more durability credit than I give him to see his HP taking that, I guess. Mostly requires giving him support credit despite the detatchment of his support, as it is good support, just not really fought at the same time.

So basically, it's not really a large stretch, just requires being generous to him enough to see his HP higher or to take something like Killer Weapons more into in-game averages(As, that lowers the raw might of the average signifigantly enough to matter.). People don't respect Nergal defenses enough, on paper.

(HP, now, his HP sucks. But hey. And of course there's going to be arguments about who you *should* take as average against Nergal.)

[Ultradude]

I think people are pretty much holding Legendary and S-ranked weapons against him, since you get them just for that chapter alone.

At least, that's why I've always figured Limstella's still in heavy and Nergal isn't.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Now, granted. Filia's Might exists. How much you want to credit that's your buisiness. (I...tend to consider it bonus, it was a Desert find, I think? and 15 shots. I can really see crediting it a lot, and Nergal is one of the better targets for it, but it tends to weaken how much I care about it myself.) But still, it doesn't take tooooo much more durability credit than I give him to see his HP taking that, I guess. Mostly requires giving him support credit despite the detatchment of his support, as it is good support, just not really fought at the same time.

The other problem is that S Rank weapons also uniformly exist by Nergal, and you're likely to have one for the vast majority of your army, and those are far better at breaking his defense. Athos also exists, and he not only breaks through Nergal defense easily, he also comes with two S-Rank weapons which you can drop forward. Weapons that have better Might than Silvers that aren't DL-legal, but are fair game for in-game scaling exist, and they're actually plentiful enough to matter. And that's not even getting into supports, which, on average, add at least three more points of strength per character, or possibly even stat boosters (stat boosters get into fund ranking issues, though, so let's not get there). 28 Defense isn't so impressive when your might average quite probably outpaces 40.

So basically, it's not really a large stretch, just requires being generous to him enough to see his HP higher or to take something like Killer Weapons more into in-game averages(As, that lowers the raw might of the average signifigantly enough to matter.). People don't respect Nergal defenses enough, on paper.

In-game, Killer weapons are a downright damage loss. They just get inflated in the DL. I'd avoid taking Killers in-game for averages due to their sub-optimal effect, and even DL-wise, unless you're generous with when crits kick in, they tend to deal less damage long-term than Silvers to boot. Nergal's defenses aren't respected enough because they just don't end up impressive in practice. They don't mitigate how frail he is enough, but when you're being taken against S Rank weapons and a uber PC you can't not have that is more than capable of not only melting through those defenses, but of OHKOing him in spite of those defenses, very little is off that HP. His defense is barely higher than Limstella's in practice (she gets fort/throne bonuses, he doesn't), but he has to face weaponry that is almost uniformly twice as strong as what Limstella has to face, which not only makes his HP even worse, but makes his defense easier to breach through in practice, because the might average is significantly higher.

I understand the impulse to respect Nergal's defense more, but I also need to point out what makes him so different compared to Limstella or slightly earlier bosses durability-wise.

EDIT: Limstella's a Heavy because she's lucky and didn't face a downgrade pool that properly sends her down. She still may be better than Nergal, though.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Godlike:

Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Lugia (PKMN) - Easy
Kurando Inugami (SH2) vs Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - Easy
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs Brahms (VPs) - Easy + Brahms respect anyway.
Yunalesca (FFX) vs Empyrea (DQ8) - Closer, but Yunalesca durability~

Heavy:

Barubary (BoF2) vs Lyon (S5) - Twilight rune damage hype.
Princess Toadstool (SMRPG) vs Joshua (FE8) - Noting that while I still buy Joshua's crit coming out before Toadstool can kill, I'd argue that Sleep pre-empts him from Countering when she wakes him up with Frying Pan.
Yosuke Hanamura (P4) vs Tony Eisler (MK) - Kneejerk, but I'd like to see some arguments on this one. I only know Tony from the stat topics ATM.
Cristo (DQ4) vs Rayquaza (PKMN) - I don't think DS Whack is even 50%.

Middle:

Nanaki (FF7) Vs Sharmista (S5) - Snow math works for me.
Dekar (Lufia 2) vs Landis (S3) - I don't think Landis even should have beaten Serph, so.
Massimo (MMXCM) Vs Tear Grants (TotA) - Tear buffs instead of going for Force Field, staving off OHKOs, heals off any of his normal damage if he saves his WE for the buff to end, and slowly builds up her overlimit bar off of physicals to keep her TP up! YES!!!~ (I love you, Tear, but you desperately need to get to Light so you can earn some wins.)
Elaine (S3) vs Nergal (FE7) - Yeah, SL > Nergal in every way to me.

Light:

Soren (FE9) vs Cinnamon (MMXCM) - Yeah, not buying Cinnamon blocking wind here.
Steena (CC) vs Irvine Kinneas (FF8) - Though if I allow FF8 characters to start in Limit range, he statuses her out. I'm torn about allowing this. It -really- fits with my views about carrying over in-game advantages (and I already have no problems with allowing pre-battle buffing like Vanish - Celes and Shadow love me), but making Irvine into FF8 gamebest dueller just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I should abstain?
Rebecca Streisand (WA5) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6) - Another weird interp call for me. I allow both WA5 and FF6 characters to get plot-based equips, so I give Rebecca the Sky Medium and Relm gets Starlet/Lakshmi magicite/spells. So... Rebecca has damage that actually registers, but Relm is now an awesome healer and I don't think Rebecca even heal-locks. Alternately - Control -> Rebecca shoots herself.
Colette Brunell (ToS) vs Dominia (XG) - Eventually, Tear and Colette will fight it out. The winner will challenge the godly Mint. Yes.

[SageAcrin]

The other problem is that S Rank weapons also uniformly exist by Nergal

Oh, right, I forgot those. They do drag the average up a couple of points(I'd thought of the uniques, but I forgot that the S Rank universals were 20ish on Might.).

Of course, flipside, people could see 20/15 as high for endgame. Depends on how many people you run. (My runs averaged about 20/5 but don't count at all, sensible, non-RNG abusing people won't try to use everyone.)

In-game, Killer weapons are a downright damage loss. They just get inflated in the DL. I'd avoid taking Killers in-game for averages due to their sub-optimal effect, and even DL-wise, unless you're generous with when crits kick in, they tend to deal less damage long-term than Silvers to boot. Nergal's defenses aren't respected enough because they just don't end up impressive in practice. They don't mitigate how frail he is enough, but when you're being taken against S Rank weapons and a uber PC you can't not have that is more than capable of not only melting through those defenses, but of OHKOing him in spite of those defenses, very little is off that HP. His defense is barely higher than Limstella's in practice (she gets fort/throne bonuses, he doesn't), but he has to face weaponry that is almost uniformly twice as strong as what Limstella has to face, which not only makes his HP even worse, but makes his defense easier to breach through in practice, because the might average is significantly higher.

I understand the impulse to respect Nergal's defense more, but I also need to point out what makes him so different compared to Limstella or slightly earlier bosses durability-wise.

EDIT: Limstella's a Heavy because she's lucky and didn't face a downgrade pool that properly sends her down. She still may be better than Nergal, though.

Well, that is true. Overall, Limstella's defense respect should be at the very worst comparable, and really should be better; IIRC, her support is more directly applicable instead of being compartmentalized boss fights that happen before you can touch her, as well, helping durability arguments in her favor somewhat to me. Never mind that she has a throne, as you said, and 2 defense difference probably gets accounted for by pure *levels* between the two(Well, Athos isn't really levels, since those are his base stats. But Athos+the added IIRC high EXP final stage randoms should actually account for most of that just on raw stats...), let alone equipment. Nergal has him some problems.

I tend to forget Limstella exists though. Wonder why.

[Taishyr]

Djinn: My response to the Irvine thing would be that, sure, start him at 25%-33% or so. ...Steena's fast enough to go before him and whack Irvine into oblivion since she's going before him, I think. >_> (Steena is 11 to 10.18, Irvine is 39 to 36.33, this divides out to Steena at 1.08 and Irvine at 1.073). Factoring GFs in if you grant them to the cast lowers any relative speed average Irvine has, I think.

And in no average does Steena fail to OHKO a Limit Range Irvine unless you scale a GF'd Irvine to non-GF'd people (... hope not!) or take my 3xPCHP, in which case the worst average makes Steena fail to hit 33% by... 1%. ...which might meet scaled Irvine defenses.

So yeah, to me no matter what's given to Irvine, it's Steena's match.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Tal - Good point about Steena being faster and OHKO-ing Irvine. I had kneejerked Irvine as faster, so if I allowed starting at Limit Range, he'd have won. Still... I think if I allow this interp, it's going to make Irvine far better than he deserves.

Idly... does anyone have any damage numbers for GF summons?

[SageAcrin]

Which ones? And at what levels?

It really does depend a lot on if you're talking Bahamut/Eden/high level Cactuar/etc or if you mean stuff like lower end, but more easily accessed, GFs like Leviathan. I think one of the FAQs on GFAQs actually lists the base power of a bunch of GF summon attacks, ignoring the GF%+ skills.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197343/50775 Actually, SI's isn't the FAQ I was thinking of when I said that, but it does list GF powers from fairly low levels(20ish for later ones) on up, so. (Those are without Boost/% skills, the Attack values shown.)