Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 17

[ThePiggyman]

Kyogre is also slightly above average effective mdur when being hit by weakness

He's below. 90% or something.

Right, 1.81x PC HP for mdur. It's Lugia who is above average. On  the other hand, this doesn't change the fact that Kyogre gets 3HKOed (I kneejerked Carbuncle's damage right, middling 3HKO, which can get lower depending on how harsh you are on the classes that face him and levels/whatnot), and Garnet can't really close that gap.

Maybe you're running off different numbers, but the elemental spells do about 450 damage to an average HP that's only slightly above 1000. Paired with weakness, that's nearing a OHKO to average. I can understand if you don't respect it, but no amount of disrespect could push that to be less than a 2HKO.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Kyogre is also slightly above average effective mdur when being hit by weakness

He's below. 90% or something.

Right, 1.81x PC HP for mdur. It's Lugia who is above average. On  the other hand, this doesn't change the fact that Kyogre gets 3HKOed (I kneejerked Carbuncle's damage right, middling 3HKO, which can get lower depending on how harsh you are on the classes that face him and levels/whatnot), and Garnet can't really close that gap.

Maybe you're running off different numbers, but the elemental spells do about 450 damage to an average HP that's only slightly above 1000. Paired with weakness, that's nearing a OHKO to average. I can understand if you don't respect it, but no amount of disrespect could push that to be less than a 2HKO.

Dude, Kyogre at base has 1.81x PC HP for magic durability. That spell is dealing close to 90% PC HP, sure... but it's ripping just below half of Kyogre's health in practice.

[ThePiggyman]

Kyogre is also slightly above average effective mdur when being hit by weakness

He's below. 90% or something.

Right, 1.81x PC HP for mdur. It's Lugia who is above average. On  the other hand, this doesn't change the fact that Kyogre gets 3HKOed (I kneejerked Carbuncle's damage right, middling 3HKO, which can get lower depending on how harsh you are on the classes that face him and levels/whatnot), and Garnet can't really close that gap.

Maybe you're running off different numbers, but the elemental spells do about 450 damage to an average HP that's only slightly above 1000. Paired with weakness, that's nearing a OHKO to average. I can understand if you don't respect it, but no amount of disrespect could push that to be less than a 2HKO.

Dude, Kyogre at base has 1.81x PC HP for magic durability. That spell is dealing close to 90% PC HP, sure... but it's ripping just below half of Kyogre's health in practice.

Wow, it's actually just below half. ;o
I guess that just stresses the importance of offing eGarnet before she gets a turn. Although, even if they do, Carbuncle gets another turn, to bring Kyogre to the edge of death, and giving Gilgy another turn to status someone out. Priest has to pitch in to kill Garnet (Gold Staff thwack oughta do it), meaning he can't Esuna.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Well, it depends. I think the real proper measure there would be stalling rather than going blitz, but that means there's little room for offense on both sides - if both sides go blitzblitz, odds are Garnet dies before getting a turn herself and Maya's still available for HP healing and she should be faster than Garnet too (so, she heals Kyogre, eGarnet dies and the other Garnet now gets a turn to Esuna or whatever, although then the thing goes "Gilgy confuses Kyogre, Priest heals Kyogre from confusion, Kyogre/Kyra/Maya boom and Garnet heals Kyogre from damage). There are four healers in the team, and three of them are faster than Garnet, so -that- particular approach is problematic.

EDIT: However, what is more problematic is that Kyogre also needs to Scary Face Gilgamesh, which brings us into another dimension. If Garnet immunes Sleep and absolutely can't get a turn or he loses to you, things suddenly get ugly because Gilgy's gonna 3-2 at least Garnet (I peg him at a bit over 1.5x average speed), and due to his three-turn living gimmick, he's bound to get a double on the whole party, so they have to tank through all the status he can dole out and he can neuter both status healers. Sooooooooooo, yeah. Maybe Gilgy 4 isn't that terrific an idea to fight against with so much support.

[Taishyr]

As one side note, though it's likely irrelevant to most and probably illegal to most anyway, Maya has an argument for being able to switch to a persona for a buff and then switch immediately back with only a slight speed lag as penalty, as switching Personas is a free action in-game anyway (speed lag comes from the fact that the switch doesn't happen immediately after her turn, but immediately before the next person's action). So in theory keeping up complete immunity to nearly everything the enemy side has isn't a problem, and attacker vs. defender arguments come into play if you see Maya's Reflect: Magic as bouncing Garnet's summons back onto her (if Maya's Reflect: Magic takes priority, it bounces; if Garnet's summons being normally unreflectable takes priority, Maya simply takes no damage from it. But I digress.)

I'm mainly just throwing this out since it might matter to some people in getting through fights, allowing her access to some of the buffs without any major stress.

[Clear Tranquil]

Isn't Maya pretty much indestructible if you allow her everything though? >_> *remembers epic Feena vs Maya slap fest in RPGmon* That support is nuts.

Hnnnn. Team Tai probably fries to aeon overdrives but w/o those aeons are ST wonders yeah. I just have to decide whether I allow aeons or at least Yuna to start w/th overdrive! Other that that Pain's ID and Yojimbo's might still be problematic especially since I can't remember whether Yojimbo's ID was ST or MT and whether or not he's slow. Anima wasn't particularly fast though irrc.

[Taishyr]

The enemy should never manage to pull off an overdrive, I think; Maya's buffs include *1.5x Magic and *1.5x Speed, MT (normally it's ST 2x), which should pretty much allow the team to throw out high-powered steamrolling at will.

And... Maya is scary defensively, yes. >_> It's part of her appeal - she gets buffs, good healing, and in this format, revival, and can be a complete defensive monstrosity thanks to everything Reflect: Magic covers in her game.

[Clear Tranquil]

Oh I see. Team Tai passes then.

[Bardiche]

Just noting my votes is pass to all, except for myself.

[Clear Tranquil]

Gwah forgot aeon First Strike >_> So if I allow starting overdrives ... I'm just going on a winger and saying *someone* on Tai's team manages to survive an opening overdrive from Valefor and revives the others, Maya buffs from there and then the team fully recovers themselves before smashing. Probably ridiculous but meh. It's quite ironic the first aeon is non elemental as a lot of teams own Ifrit, Shiva and Ixion w/th elemental walling <_<

Or I could just go w/th not allowing overdrives which seems to be the general concensus?

[Yoshiken]

I think people allow Overdrives, but only if the Overdrive bar is actually filled. Valefor's probably coming closest to getting an Overdrive, since Tai's spending a few turns buffing and, IIRC, their OD bars fill when they attack as well as when they get attacked... But, uhh, after that, it's just getting OHKOed. No chance of OD, and then each Aeon after that is getting destroyed by Kyogre. Tai is lucky that FFX chose Water as the element to not have an Aeon for. >.>

Anyways, having read all of the arguments, I think I'm gonna say that Tai fails. That Gilgi/Garnet/Carbunkl fight is definitely close (I allow Garnet status-blockers if she can get the equipment) but I see Kyra+Kyogre as enough to kill enemy!Garnet. Think that fight is definitely winnable from there, but on seriously low health. Low enough for the next fight to finish him off.

[Taishyr]

... Eh, I won't press it too much, but my team has four different healers. Health isn't my problem coming out of that fight, I don't think.

[Yoshiken]

...Actually, that's a point. Once Gilgi's down, you can just stall against Carb to heal up to near-full. >.>

Yeah, changing that one to a pass then. ^^'

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I also have to note that Aeon overdrives outside the higher-end Aeons (i.e. not Valefor) ram into the 9999 cap pretty fiercely and that's barely a 2HKO off endgame averages.

[Monkeyfinger]

They all have break damage limit, I thought.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

They all have break damage limit, I thought.

Most of them... actually don't, unless Yuna's Nirvana also applies to them, but I remember that not happening. Bahamut, Anima and the Magus Sisters all do (dunno if Yojimbo does), but I'm pretty sure Valefor to Shiva don't.

EDIT:

* Jo'ou Ranbu checks on the stat topic. Huh, according to NEB, they -do- have BDL. Why does their Overdrive damage tank at 9999 for a while, though? I remember Shiva's Overdrive getting stuck at 9999 even after obtaining Bahamut, maybe they get BDL later?

[Tide]

* Jo'ou Ranbu checks on the stat topic. Huh, according to NEB, they -do- have BDL. Why does their Overdrive damage tank at 9999 for a while, though? I remember Shiva's Overdrive getting stuck at 9999 even after obtaining Bahamut, maybe they get BDL later?

If I remember my FFX stuff correct, Aeon BDL is dependent on the Crests/Sigils associated with them. Ie: You have to get the crests/sigils (and purify them) before the Aeons can BDL. DL wise, since all FFX characters have their celestials equipped (which requires both the crest AND the sigil), it should not matter since they would have BDL anyway.

What I don't remember is whether or not the Aeon BDL comes on the Crest or the Sigil. The celestial does not unlock BDL until the Sigil is gotten, so my gut is to say that Aeons likely don't BDL until they get the associated Sigil either. Valefor is associated with the Moon Sigil which is also the easiest to get, so this might be why you kneejerk that other aeons ram into the 9999 damage cap as Ifrit/Shiva/Ixion need their respective Sigils to BDL (Mars/Venus/Jupiter is my kneejerk but NEB can correct me on this). Bahamut cheats and starts with BDL IIRC.

For dungeons purposes, the Crests should always be gotten faster than the Sigil since the Sigil requires you to do some borderline obnoxious things in order to earn.

LATE UPDATE but good to know: (Courtesy of NEB)

Moon/Valefor
Mars/Yojimbo
Venus/Shiva
Jupiter/Ifrit
Saturn/Ixion

Sun and Mercury are not tied to any aeons. In addition, only the crests need to be gotten for Aeon BDL! This also means Valefor should get his BDL before anybody elses.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

That probably explains it, then. I ended up missing a couple Sigils (didn't bother with Wakka/Kimahri Celestials), and I rarely used Aeons by the very endgame, let alone earlier Aeons.