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Author Topic: FF8 GF compatibility talk  (Read 10792 times)

DjinnAndTonic

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FF8 GF compatibility talk
« on: November 10, 2009, 07:01:01 AM »
For those of you that don't know, FF8 characters rely on GFs to get stuff done. However, there's practically no fair way to decide who gets which GF, except for some very shaky plot claims.

Well, as it turns out, PCs have a unique innate compatibility with each of the GFs from the beginning of the game. This compatibility effects the speed at which a GF is summoned in battle with the GF command. Compatibility is increased/decreased by the following methods: Summoning the GF itself (huuuuge compatibility boost), summoning the GF's opposite (like, summoning Ifrit makes Shiva hate you, big compatibility drop), using elemental magic (small boost/drop), using a compatibility item (small boost/drop, or large boost to all GFs with certain items).

These actions effect compatibility even if a GF hasn't been collected yet, so it's hard to know what base compatibility is if you -ever- use magic or GFs in a game.

However, through the magic of hacking, we now know these values thanks to Gwendal at Gamefaqs. He even took screenshots. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=197343&topic=51902276&page=2
Part one pictures:
http://img692.imageshack.us/g/queza.jpg/
Part two pictures:
http://img690.imageshack.us/g/cerberus.jpg/

These numbers provide some solid gameplay backing for giving FF8 characters skillsets, so they don't have to be boring limit fighters anymore. Especially if you allow the characters to junction common magic to whichever junction slots their GFs innately allow them.

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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2009, 07:02:23 AM »
Copied the lists, and thanks to the magic of Spreadsheets, here are the base compatibility charts, in order of greatest to least. (Includes Edea and Seifer)

Quezacotl
Edea 760
Irvine 640
Rinoa 640
Quistis 620
Zell 600
Squall 580
Selphie 580
Seifer 500

Shiva
Edea 750
Rinoa 650
Quistis 640
Irvine 580
Squall 570
Zell 540
Selphie 530
Seifer 480

Ifrit
Edea 740
Zell 630
Rinoa 620
Squall 600
Selphie 600
Irvine 570
Quistis 570
Seifer 460

Siren
Edea 660
Selphie 640
Rinoa 630
Irvine 620
Quistis 584
Zell 580
Squall 560
Seifer 440

Diablos
Squall 660
Edea 630
Rinoa 620
Irvine 610
Selphie 610
Quistis 600
Zell 580
Seifer 380

Brothers
Edea 730
Zell 610
Rinoa 610
Quistis 580
Squall 576
Irvine 540
Selphie 530
Seifer 400

Carbuncle
Selphie 720
Rinoa 680
Quistis 640
Edea 620
Zell 600
Squall 580
Irvine 530
Seifer 360

Leviathan
Edea 730
Rinoa 660
Selphie 640
Squall 620
Zell 580
Quistis 570
Irvine 560
Seifer 340

Pandemona
Edea 723
Rinoa 640
Selphie 620
Squall 570
Zell 570
Quistis 560
Irvine 540
Seifer 320

Cerberus
Selphie 740
Edea 728
Rinoa 700
Squall 640
Quistis 620
Zell 600
Irvine 550
Seifer 300

Alexander
Edea 700
Selphie 640
Rinoa 620
Squall 580
Zell 560
Quistis 540
Irvine 530
Seifer 280

Doomtrain
Edea 720
Rinoa 600
Selphie 580
Squall 540
Zell 520
Quistis 520
Irvine 510
Seifer 260

Bahamut
Edea 700
Rinoa 580
Selphie 560
Squall 520
Irvine 520
Quistis 510
Zell 500
Seifer 240

Cactuar
Selphie 700
Edea 680
Rinoa 640
Squall 580
Irvine 560
Quistis 550
Zell 540
Seifer 220

Tonberry
Selphie 660
Edea 660
Squall 540
Rinoa 540
Irvine 530
Quistis 520
Zell 500
Seifer 200

Eden
Rinoa 560
Edea 540
Selphie 520
Squall 480
Quistis 440
Zell 400
Irvine 380
Seifer 180

Trends: Edea dominates the charts, with a few exceptions where Rinoa or Selphie (and for Diablos, Squall) has a slight advantage. Seifer bottoms the charts uniformly. Everyone has crappy base compatibility with Eden. Rinoa and Selphie are better with GFs than all of the main PCs. Quistis and Irvine get the short straws when it comes to compatibility. Weird since Irvine joins later than most. Rinoa's high compatibility with the earlier GFs makes sense because she joins later while the others have had time to train with them. (But again, Irvine doesn't, so sucks to be him.)


Compatibility lists which only include the available characters at the -earliest- chance for getting the GF, which is the only time that base compatibility matters anyway. (Actually, I'm not 100% sure on which PCs were available for some of the midgame GFs, and just going off my memory. If something's wrong with my lists, please tell me!)

Quezacotl
Quistis 620
Squall 580

Shiva
Quistis 640
Squall 570

Ifrit
Zell 630
Squall 600
Quistis 570

Siren
Selphie 640
Quistis 584
Zell 580
Squall 560

Diablos
Squall 660
Selphie 610
Quistis 600
Zell 580

Brothers
Zell 610
Rinoa 610
Quistis 580
Squall 576
Irvine 540
Selphie 530

Carbuncle
Selphie 720
Rinoa 680
Quistis 640
Zell 600
Squall 580
Irvine 530

Leviathan
Rinoa 660
Squall 620
Zell 580
Quistis 570
Irvine 560

Pandemona
Rinoa 640
Selphie 620
Squall 570
Zell 570
Quistis 560
Irvine 540

Cerberus
Selphie 740
Rinoa 700
Squall 640
Quistis 620
Zell 600
Irvine 550

Alexander
Selphie 640
Rinoa 620
Squall 580
Zell 560
Quistis 540
Irvine 530

Doomtrain
Selphie 580
Squall 540
Zell 520
Quistis 520
Irvine 510

Bahamut
Rinoa 580
Selphie 560
Squall 520
Irvine 520
Quistis 510
Zell 500

Cactuar
Selphie 700
Rinoa 640
Squall 580
Irvine 560
Quistis 550
Zell 540

Tonberry
Selphie 660
Squall 540
Rinoa 540
Irvine 530
Quistis 520
Zell 500

Eden
Rinoa 560
Selphie 520
Squall 480
Quistis 440
Zell 400
Irvine 380


Note that by this method, Irvine gets NO GFs. Squall gets one (Diablos!). Quistis and Zell get two each, while Rinoa and Selphie get all the rest. Balance!! Starting from when he's available, Irvine's highest compatibility is with Cactuar (560 points, #4 of the 6 PCs), if you want to throw him a bone.

Squall gets Diablos
Quistis gets Quezacotl and Shiva
Zell gets Ifrit and Brothers
Selphie gets Siren, Carbuncle, Cerberus, Alexander, Cactuar, and Tonberry (Six!)
Rinoa gets Leviathan, Pandemona, Doomtrain*, Bahamut, and Eden (Holy crap, all the good ones!)
*Rinoa may not be able to get Doomtrain after all. In which case, another one for Selphie. Good God.

Another way of looking at the same information. Everyone's top compatibility in order from greatest to least. Squall is a master of Diablos! Seifer and Edea included for posterity.

Squall
Diablos 660
Cerberus 640
Leviathan 620
Ifrit 600
Quezacotl 580
Carbuncle 580
Alexander 580
Cactuar 580
Brothers 576
Shiva 570
Pandemona 570
Siren 560
Doomtrain 540
Tonberry 540
Bahamut 520
Eden 480

Zell
Ifrit 630
Brothers 610
Quezacotl 600
Carbuncle 600
Cerberus 600
Siren 580
Diablos 580
Leviathan 580
Pandemona 570
Alexander 560
Shiva 540
Cactuar 540
Doomtrain 520
Bahamut 500
Tonberry 500
Eden 400

Irvine
Quezacotl 640
Siren 620
Diablos 610
Shiva 580
Ifrit 570
Leviathan 560
Cactuar 560
Cerberus 550
Brothers 540
Pandemona 540
Carbuncle 530
Alexander 530
Tonberry 530
Bahamut 520
Doomtrain 510
Eden 380

Quistis
Shiva 640
Carbuncle 640
Quezacotl 620
Cerberus 620
Diablos 600
Siren 584
Brothers 580
Ifrit 570
Leviathan 570
Pandemona 560
Cactuar 550
Alexander 540
Doomtrain 520
Tonberry 520
Bahamut 510
Eden 440

Rinoa
Cerberus 700
Carbuncle 680
Leviathan 660
Shiva 650
Quezacotl 640
Pandemona 640
Cactuar 640
Siren 630
Ifrit 620
Diablos 620
Alexander 620
Brothers 610
Doomtrain 600
Bahamut 580
Eden 560
Tonberry 540

Selphie
Cerberus 740
Carbuncle 720
Cactuar 700
Tonberry 660
Siren 640
Leviathan 640
Alexander 640
Pandemona 620
Diablos 610
Ifrit 600
Quezacotl 580
Doomtrain 580
Bahamut 560
Shiva 530
Brothers 530
Eden 520

Seifer
Quezacotl 500
Shiva 480
Ifrit 460
Siren 440
Brothers 400
Diablos 380
Carbuncle 360
Leviathan 340
Pandemona 320
Cerberus 300
Alexander 280
Doomtrain 260
Bahamut 240
Cactuar 220
Tonberry 200
Eden 180

Edea
Quezacotl 760
Shiva 750
Ifrit 740
Brothers 730
Leviathan 730
Cerberus 728
Pandemona 723
Doomtrain 720
Alexander 700
Bahamut 700
Cactuar 680
Siren 660
Tonberry 660
Diablos 630
Carbuncle 620
Eden 540

So Squall gets Diablos (emo, of course), Zell gets Ifrit (firey, makes sense), Irvine gets Quezacotl (whatever), and Quistis gets Shiva (ice queen, I can believe that). Rinoa and Selphie -both- have top compatibility with Cerberus (dog-lovers!), and then Carbuncle (they like cute things!). But since Selphie has the higher compatibility (with both), I'd give her Cerberus (and maybe Carbuncle too, cause it fits), and then Rinoa would default to Leviathan (with whom she has a higher base compatibility compared to Selphie). Rinoa also started with Leviathan in the demo, so it works!

This last one is the method I would use.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 03:15:19 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2009, 07:12:00 AM »
It's interesting to note that by the last method, each of the characters (except Selphie) gets a menu command to Refine magic from common items. If Selphie wanted one of these commands (to have a solid claim to getting junction-able spells), she could opt for Siren, with whom she has a higher starting compatibility than the other characters.

Diablos - Time magic Refine, Status magic Refine
Ifrit - Fire magic Refine
Quezacotl - Thunder magic Refine, Mid-level magic Refine
Shiva - Ice magic Refine
Leviathan - Support magic Refine
Siren - Life/Recovery magic Refine
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 07:13:51 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2009, 08:27:26 AM »
So basically, some characters start off slightly better with some GFs than other GFs. While them having more of a skillset would be a cool thing, these still aren't very unique. While I'm somewhat more lenient on magic than most (Well, I allow innate CC attack elements), this just isn't clear cut enough for me. Hardly the first situation where someone is generally better at something in game, but won't get it DL wise because everyone wants it (See: Well, see basically every runeless Suiko mage!).
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superaielman

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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2009, 12:58:33 PM »
Compatibility is not a fixed stat either.  Those are pretty minor differences in terms of effectiveness as well. Oh no Squall does a bit more damage with a summon than Irvine!! Dhyer's pretty much correct. There is less uniqueness there than there is with Suikoden runes being handed out to the cast.
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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2009, 03:57:59 PM »
Just for some clarifications: 
You usually get to the Ancient Tomb after going to Galbadia Garden (it's a significant diversion around even if you can break sequence), so Irvine is legit for Brothers.
Likewise, you get Leviathan from NORG, during the party split.  Since Selphie is locked into the Missile base, she can't fight NORG, and therefore can't get Leviathan initially.
Actually, aren't you required to get Doomtrain before launching for the moon?  If so, then Rinoa can't get it initially either.
Lastly, Seifer is ineligible for Siren as you draw her after he leaves the party.  However, the time between you get him and you get Ifrit is short enough for him to be considered in that count (you get Zell at about the same time).

And now for some analysis:
First off, remove Edea from the master list.  She's a Disc 3 Temp; the rest are Mains or Disc 1.  Her initial compatibility numbers can't be taken directly against the others, but must be taken against a Disc 3 start average... which would be impossible to determine due to the fluctuations over the course of the game.
Of course, in that respect, we should also remove Alexander and Pandemonia from the list of available GFs since these are drawn from Edea and Fujin respectively.  (Granted, Fujin is never a PC, but...)  Incidentally, this means Alexander is Edea's regardless of aught else.  Too bad she also has a Boss Form.
Incidentally, I think that a plot claim can be made for all Balamb educated SeeDs to have Quezacotl and Shiva, as they're in the Class Tutorial.  (The case can also be made for Ifrit, but an equal claim could be that Ifrit was Squall's trial alone, so that only he and Quistis would have a claim; which, again, is 1 PC too many...)
Conversely, Irvine could have a plot claim for Cerberus of all GFs as that's the GF of Galbadia Garden.  A bit more solid than Squall's claim on Diablos.  (Was he given Diablos as Squall or as the Leader of his Task Force?)

Finally, a little note, which I may or may not have mentioned elsewhere:  While I was programming some checks for a FF8 Character, likely for the Dungeon, I gathered and sorted a list of GF abilities to see what if any can be applied to the entire party.  Basically, a Generic GF.  Mostly it was just basic commands, Percentage Boosters (which means that the relative averages don't change), Junctions (no unique spells, so doesn't matter), Abilityx3, Expendx2-1 (again, no spells), and two items:
1.  Auto-Potion:  Potions are storebought but not usually allowed because they are common items.  So this probably isn't useful
2.  Initiative:  First Strike
Both of the above have 3 GFs able to learn this ability.  Enough for a standard party.

As the above note, here is what the above listed GFs would give each respective member:
Diablos:  HP+80% (as opposed to the +40% common), Darkside, Time&Status Magic Refine, Mug.
Cerberus:  Speed+40% (only 2 have), Auto-Haste, StDefJx4 (only has 2, StDefJx2 has 3)
Alexander:  Revive, High-Magic Refine, Medicine Upgrade, Medicine Data, Elem-DefJx4 (only has 2, Elem-DefJx2 has 6)

Actually, given the above, with StDefJx2 being naturally learned by 3 GFs, (includes Cerberus,) perhaps an allowance could also be made to have FF8 Characters junction 2 Status Spells for Status-Protection Use ONLY.  Even if you limit it to M-Stone line refinables, that still means protection against Silence(meh), Slow, Berserk, Poison, and Stop.  (Not sure how Dispel's 50% Drain protection works, and Esuna's 20% against most commons only helps if the Status Spell is only slightly accurate anyway.   Poison, Stone, Blind, Slow, Silence, Berserk, Sleep, Stop, Curse, and Confusion if you want to know...)

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2009, 12:14:13 AM »
What the cast looks like with the above GFs:

Squall:
Diablos
HP: 3000
Summon: Dark Messenger - Gravity-based percentage damage, MT Percentage based on level (50% mHP damage at L50, 100% mHP damage at L100) Damage cannot exceed 9999 cap.
Mug: Physical + Steal
Darkside : 3x Physical damage, costs 10% mHP

Innate boosts: (Can only equip 3, stackable)
Mag+20%,40%   
HP+20%,40%,80%   
GFHP+10%,20%,30%   
Ability x3 – can equip up to 3 innate boosts.

Menu abilities:
Time Magic Refine -Slow, Haste, Stop, Quake, Demi, Double, Triple
Status Magic Refine - Silence, Berserk, Bio, Blind, Confuse, Sleep, Break, Pain, Meltdown
Junctions: Mag, HP, Hit

Squall's stats [with Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 4187 [9999] (PainX100) (HP+80%, HP+40%)
STR - 47
VIT - 41
MAG - 45 [115] (TripleX100)
SPR - 36
SPD - 37
LUK - 22
Hit - 255 [255] (DoubleX100 for a +40 boost! Yes!)

Squall can increase his Hit, too, but his weapon is already a 255 (max) Hit weapon. With Diablo, Squall gets access to a summoning meatshield that deals cHP damage against anything that doesn't resist Gravity. He also gets Darkside to deal 3x his normal (already game-best) physical for the minor cost of 10% mHP. Oh, and he hits the HP cap easily with HP+80% and +40%, which stack. He even has room left over for another innate boost thanks to Ability x3. If you allow the PCs to actually -cast- their refined spells and not simply equip them (I don't), then Squall is also a nasty status whore.


Rinoa:
Leviathan   
HP: 3550
Summon: Tsunami – 2185 MT Water magic damage
Recover - Heals at no MP cost!

Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Spr+20%,40%   
SumMag+10%,20%,30%   
GFHP+10%,20%,30%   
Boost 230%

Menu commands:
Support Magic Refine - Esuna, Dispel, Protect, Shell, Reflect, Drain, Aura

Junctions: Spr, Mag, Elem DefX2, Elem Atk

Rinoa's stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 4181
STR - 67
VIT - 31
MAG - 63 [87] (AuraX100)
SPR - 39 [111 (177 w/ Spr+40%,20%)] (ReflectX100)
SPD - 36
LUK – 22

Fire, Ice, Thunder Def: 40% (ProtectX100, ShellX100)
All other Elem Def: 20% (ShellX100)

Rinoa gets a big boost to her magic durability if you allow Junctioning. She also picks up the hardest-hitting GF of the PCs, so she'll be using that primarily for offense. More importantly, she gets the Recover commad, which is nearly-full free healing that she can spam every turn. So she basically becomes a staller who you must OHKO or outspeed.


Quistis:
Shiva   
HP: 2750
Summon: Diamond Dust – 1897 MT Ice magic damage
Doom – 100% ID when Timer reaches 0.

Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Spr+20%,40%   
Vit+20%,40%   
SumMag+10%,20%,30%   
GFHP+10%,20%   
Boost 180%

Menu commands:
Ice Magic Refine - Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga, Water

Junctions: Spr, Str, Vit, Elem Atk, Elem DefX2

Quistis' stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilties)
HP - 3883
STR - 46 [76] (BlizzagaX100)
VIT - 30 [44 (62 w/ Vit+40%) (70 w/ Vit+40,20%)] (WaterX100)
MAG - 42
SPR - 34 [42 (59 w/ Spr+40%) (72 w/ Spr+40,20%)] (BlizzaraX100)
SPD - 34
LUK - 21

Ice Def: 50% (BlizzardX100)
*Ice Def: 150% (Absorbs damage as HP) (BlizzagaX100)
*Ice Atk: 100% (Physical becomes Ice-elemental) (BlizzagaX100)

*Quistis can drop her STR boost to opt for an Ice-elemental attack for whatever reason, she probably prefers to just summon Shiva in this case. But she can also drop her STR boost for the ability to absorb Ice-elemental attacks.

Quistis gets a nice STR boost, but at the moment, I'm not sure what kind of effect this has on her physical damage output besides 'it increases'. She also picks up some fun Ice-elemental tricks and Doom, which might allow her to stall until ID hits against slower opponents. The defense boosts are a nice addition, too. Water is sucky spell for Junctioning compared to the other elemental magic refine sets.


Zell:
Ifrit   
HP: 3100
Summon: Hell Fire - 1980 MT Fire magic damage
Mad Rush: Grants Berserk, Protect, Haste to party

Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Str+20%,40%   
Str Bonus (+1 Str per level up)
SumMag+10%,20%,30%   
GFHP+10%,20%30%   
Boost   180%

Menu commands:
Fire Magic Refine    - Fire, Fira, Firaga, Flare
Ammo Refine
Junctions: Str, HP, Elem-DefX2, Elem-Atk

Zell's stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 4018 [5418] (FiragaX100)
STR - 47 [153 (214 w/ Str+40%) (245 w/ Str+40%,20%)] (FlareX100) (Str Bonus)
VIT - 33
MAG - 42
SPR - 27
SPD - 35
LUK - 20

Fire Def: 130% (Absorbs Fire as HP) (FiraX100, FireX100 to both Elem-Defs)
*Fire Atk: 50% (Physical gets Fire-element attributes) (FireX100)

*Zell can lose some Fire resistance (down to 80%) and Junction his Fire spells to Elem-Atk to get a Fire elemental physical for whatever reason. He probably wants to use Ifrit in this case, but then again, his STR stat is awesome.

Yikes. Ifrit's skills are well-tailored for dueling. STR Bonus grants a point of STR at every level up. This would mean that if Zell had Ifrit from level 1, he'd get a +98 STR increase because FF8 characters' stats are taken at L99 in the DL for some reason. I'm capping this at STR+50 for a more conservative estimate, but just be aware that it could be higher. Additionally, Ifrit also allows STR junctioning AND STR percent boosts, so Zell can almost hit the STR cap. Not sure how much damage this translates to in his physical, but needless to say, it's a lot. To top it off, he can use Mad Rush, which Berserks him (no Limit hype then), but it also boosts his damage further AND he gets Haste and Protect out of the deal to become a speedy physical powers who absorbs Fire for good measure. If he needs magic damage for whatever reason, he'll drop the Str boosts and go for Summon Magic boosting to get some mileage out of Ifrit's not-too-shabby summon, too.


Selphie:
Siren   
HP: 2700
Summon: Silent Voice - 1356 and high chance of Silence
Treatment: Cures all status effects

Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Mag+20%,40%   
Mag Bonus   
SumMag+10%,20%,30%   
GFHP+10%,20%   
Boost   200

Menu commands:
Life Magic Refine    - Cure, Cura, Curaga, Regen, Life, Full-Life, Holy, Zombie, Death
Status Medicine Refine   
Tool Refine   
Junctions: Mag, St-DefX2, St-Atk

Selphie's stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 3680
STR - 45
VIT - 28
MAG - 49 [119 (167 w/ Mag+40%) (190 w/ Mag+40,20%)] (CuragaX100) (Mag Bonus)
SPR - 38
SPD - 37
LUK - 26

Status Attack: 100% ID attached to physical (DeathX100)
*Status Attack: 100% Zombie status attached to physical (ZombieX100) I believe Zombie ends a match if all remaining opponents are Zombies.
Status Def(x2 slots): 80% ID resist, 40% resist against Poison, Berserk, Zombie, Sleep, Curse, Confuse, Drain (HolyX100, Full-LifeX100)
*Stat Def(x2 slots): 100% ID resist (DeathX100), 100% Zombie resist (ZombieX100)

Well, Siren works really well with Selphie's weapon. She's able to get two flavors of 100% ID attached to her ITE physical. Yikes. She can also opt to junction these to her status defense for 100% ID protection if necessary. Her Magic stat got a nice boost too, which is useful if you allow her to cast Holy from the menu, or if not, STILL useful thanks to how it effects the power of her Limits. She also has Silence by summoning Siren should she be facing an ID-immune mage. Regen and Curaga are nice too if you allow them to cast their menu-refined spells (I don't).


Irvine:
Quezacotl   
HP: 2850
Summon: Thunder Storm – 1892 MT Thunder magic damage
Card - ID. Sucess percentage increases as enemy's HP decreases, turns enemy into a card. Godly.

Innate boosts: (Can only equip two, stackable)
Mag+20%, 40%   
SumMag+10%,20%,30%   
Boost 180%
GFHP+10%,20%   

Menu commands:
Thunder Magic Refine - Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga, Aero, Tornado
Mid Magic Refine   
Card Mod   

Junctions: HP, Vit, Elem DefX2, Elem Atk

Irvine's stats [w/ Junctions] (Junctioned spells/abilities)
HP - 3880 [6880] (TornadoX100)
STR - 45
VIT - 31 [47] (ThundagaX100)
MAG - 42 [42 (59 w/ Mag+40%) (67 w/ Mag+40,20%)]
SPR - 28
SPD - 39
LUK - 21

Thunder Def (x2 slots): 130% (Absorbs Thunder as HP) (ThundaraX100, ThunderX100)
*Wind Def (+Thun Def in slot2): 80% (AeroX100, ThundaraX100)
*Thunder/Wind Atk (1 slot only): 80% Thunder or Wind-elemental physical (ThundaraX100 OR AeroX100)

Irvine picked up some increased durability and Thunder/Wind elemental tricks. Nothing particularly exciting, but the increased HP means that his Limit range is little broader and he's more likely to survive being knocked into range so he can unleash the big damage or status whoring. Also spoils Thunder/Wind reliant characters and picks up a summoning meatshield with magic damage. He probably doesn't care about the Magic stat boost and will opt for the SumMag boost instead to increased Quezacotl's summoning effectiveness.



Personally, I find the cast to be extremely interesting this way, and there's -just- enough gameplay backing for me to take the cast like this. So uh... yeah, Selphie for Heavy.

But... if nothing else, these numbers might be useful for coming up with an average to take Junctioned FF8 PCs against.

Tide

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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2009, 04:15:06 AM »
Just my 2 cents after some thinking regarding this proposed method of GF distribution. Hopefully, I don't come off sounding too negative.

GF compatability as noted is not a fixed stat. In fact, I hardly ever consider it when junctioning GFs because it is usually not a good way to determine stat/ability coverage. Seeing as how unimportant it is in-game but suddenly using it as a determining factor for something this big (everyone and their mother wants Cerberus/Carbuncle) irks me. It's not intuitive at all because you are hardly ever likely going to use those base compatability stats for anything. Yeah, they are a starting benchmark, but the differences in compatability is like 100 points at most. And not 100 points within a range when it will be most likely noticable.

I also noticed some ties in compatability, which I'm not sure how you want to handle. For example, giving Irvine no GFs because he has no "best" compatability (as it is tied with Rinoa) seems like it is favouritism at best. I guess you can outright disallow any "tied" compatability GFs, but giving one PC several GFs based off of a finnicky stat doesn't sit awfully well with me. This doesn't avoid the problem of course that you will still get large imbalances because some GFs are just so much better than others.

Magic distribution is also tricky. Yeah, the simple way is giving them magic corresponding to what Refines they have. This doesn't get into the question of ease though. For example? 100 Tornadoes are easily gotten and I can easily agree to give this to whoever has W/L Mag Refine. But 100 Ultimas? Refining -THAT- is a pain in the rear. I certainly wouldn't consider that legal for example. Of course, Card-Mod makes everything even more stupid. Hey look, 100 Triples before Disc 2 AND you can get the Quistis Card back. You basically need to draw a line where the line is not easily defined. Technically Card Mod makes everything easy. But the Card Mod trick is not something I expect people to utilize normally. Aside from that, you are ignoring Draw existing, which for all intent purposes, DOES allow you to gather magic outside of Refines, even if not a very good way at it.

Another thing, summoning a GF causes all other GF compatabilities to go DOWN. Opposing elements cause the corresponding GF to lose double the compatabitality. This further applies to spells IIRC. So someone casting Thunder will get boosted comptability with Quezt. The sole exception is Eden. Basically, I would be strongly opposed to junctioning more than one GF at a time if you go by compatability scores. It fluctuates greatly and is very difficult for example for Selphie to maintain 6 GFs with 600+ compatability with her unless she stops using summons and magic period - which kinda contradicts the whole point of using compatability as a base as anyway.

Quote
Oh no Squall does a bit more damage with a summon than Irvine!

Not even. Compatability effects GF summoning time. At 0 Compatability, summoning time is 16 seconds (around 3 turns at 40 speed; gets worse if you're faster). At 1000, GF summoning time is around half a second. This would matter if the compatability differences were actually larger (more than +/-100 at 500-600 range), but they aren't.
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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2009, 04:38:50 AM »
GF compatability as noted is not a fixed stat. In fact, I hardly ever consider it when junctioning GFs because it is usually not a good way to determine stat/ability coverage. Seeing as how unimportant it is in-game but suddenly using it as a determining factor for something this big (everyone and their mother wants Cerberus/Carbuncle) irks me. It's not intuitive at all because you are hardly ever likely going to use those base compatability stats for anything. Yeah, they are a starting benchmark, but the differences in compatability is like 100 points at most. And not 100 points within a range when it will be most likely noticable.

I understand that. I used starting GF compatibility as the benchmark because there's -no- other difference between the characters for who gets what GF.

Quote
I also noticed some ties in compatability, which I'm not sure how you want to handle. For example, giving Irvine no GFs because he has no "best" compatability (as it is tied with Rinoa) seems like it is favouritism at best. I guess you can outright disallow any "tied" compatability GFs, but giving one PC several GFs based off of a finnicky stat doesn't sit awfully well with me. This doesn't avoid the problem of course that you will still get large imbalances because some GFs are just so much better than others.

Problem averted as I went with everyone's best Spell-Refining GF (conveniently their number-1 compatibility match in most cases, too).

Quote
Magic distribution is also tricky. Yeah, the simple way is giving them magic corresponding to what Refines they have. This doesn't get into the question of ease though. For example? 100 Tornadoes are easily gotten and I can easily agree to give this to whoever has W/L Mag Refine. But 100 Ultimas? Refining -THAT- is a pain in the rear. I certainly wouldn't consider that legal for example. Of course, Card-Mod makes everything even more stupid. Hey look, 100 Triples before Disc 2 AND you can get the Quistis Card back. You basically need to draw a line where the line is not easily defined. Technically Card Mod makes everything easy. But the Card Mod trick is not something I expect people to utilize normally. Aside from that, you are ignoring Draw existing, which for all intent purposes, DOES allow you to gather magic outside of Refines, even if not a very good way at it.

Well, I chose the Spell-Refine GFs specifically so that this wouldn't be a problem.

Quote
Another thing, summoning a GF causes all other GF compatabilities to go DOWN. Opposing elements cause the corresponding GF to lose double the compatabitality. This further applies to spells IIRC. So someone casting Thunder will get boosted comptability with Quezt. The sole exception is Eden. Basically, I would be strongly opposed to junctioning more than one GF at a time if you go by compatability scores. It fluctuates greatly and is very difficult for example for Selphie to maintain 6 GFs with 600+ compatability with her unless she stops using summons and magic period - which kinda contradicts the whole point of using compatability as a base as anyway.

Well, I'm certainly only allowing one GF per character in this interp, which is still a lot closer to in-game than zero GFs.

Tide

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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2009, 07:11:12 AM »
Quote
I understand that. I used starting GF compatibility as the benchmark because there's -no- other difference between the characters for who gets what GF.


Fair enough. My point is though, that as a difference, it is not only a small difference, but one that is unlikely to matter. I for one don't feel comfortable with this method of assigning GFs. You're better off arguing plot claims to me rather than compatability differences.

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Problem averted as I went with everyone's best Spell-Refining GF (conveniently their number-1 compatibility match in most cases, too).

Seems kinda unintuitive. Best spell refining doesn't prevent the problem of some GFs being much better than others (and thus everyone would kill to get that one GF). In some cases GF passives may matter more (Carbuncle comes to mind due to Auto Reflect). Are you planning on locking characters to that specific GF? Or is there a choice for them? Also, how would High Mag RF work there? Or Card Mod?

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Well, I chose the Spell-Refine GFs specifically so that this wouldn't be a problem.

That's not addressing the root of the problem though. Someone who gets Doomtrain gets access to 100 Ultimas, which is hard to get - certainly not a very feasable idea through refining. 100 Ultimas is also a ridiculous stat boost to anything. It's basically handing a free pass to certain magics that you are unlikely to have a large hold of. I have problems with giving the same character who gets access to Doomtrain a free pass to such a powerful junction when in game they are not only unlikely to get this statistical advantage, but that it is being handed out via such a finnicky changing stat troubles me personally. Again, this is just my view of things.
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Re: FF8 GF compatibility talk
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2009, 07:14:59 AM »
Are you planning on locking characters to that specific GF?

Yes. Problem solved.