Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL

[Pyro]

There has been some serious discussion recently about allowing storebought (or easily given to any PC) damage magic for casts in the DL. This applies only to damage magic, not healing, status-infliction, buffing, or other such effect spells.  The reasons behind this are multifold but mostly it represents the in-game damage scales better and allows good mages to properly shine. Some other benefits include single elemental resists coming up less often due to more damage variety and less arbitrary inflation for some casts.

I figured we could use a topic to discuss some of the points of this and what casts it effects. A listing of the casts potentially effected would be...

Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy 6, Final Fantasy 7,  Final Fantasy 8 (?), Grandia 1, Lufia 2, Mana Khemia, Pokemon, Every single last Suikoden, Saga Frontier, Valkyrie Profile, and Wild Arms 5.

Some of the biggest winners of this interp are runeless suikoden mages, Aeris, Tia, some (unranked) water type Pokemon, Relm, and others. As a result of this a lot of damage averages go up slightly so that would hurt a lot of fighters and mages with non-storebought/initial magic a little bit. It would be a good idea to collect numbers for in the future.

So feel free to post thoughts on this system and what the effects are. For example what magic should be allowed and who it makes better and by how much. This is NOT a discussion for what you think is allowed under some kind of plot claim/gameplay claim system (ala the recent GF posts or various specific materia/esper setups and so on). Please limit this to the relevant storebought/easily obtainable for all users damage magic. Note again that this is only damage magic, not status.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Personally, I'm not a fan of this. I understand the logic, but for all of the listed casts (Note that G3 and LoL could also fall under this), it just makes the cast more boring, not less. Yes, a few spell-less mages get to show off their gamebest magic stat. I'm personally of the opinion that if -that- is the intent, then just come to the conclusion that whoever has the gamebest magic stat can have access to a damage spell. Giving it to the whole cast tends to just inflate casts with elemental walling and -really- penalize casts with elemental weakness. It's bad enough that elemental weakness is such a harsh penalty in the DL.

To explain why I think this is different from my usual view of 'give them everything with even the most tenuous claim!'... I'm very lenient about handing out skillsets, but that's because these are skillSETS, not just another flavor of damage. Just another flavor of damage is frankly, boring... and there's enough boring casts in the DL as is. It's why I've tended toward plotclaim skills/storeboughts and affinity-based skill assignment. This gives duelists something -interesting- to work with. More importantly, it reflects in-game setups more closely, and is still representative of the character (at least to a slight degree or I wouldn't call it a 'claim'/'affinity').

Handing out damage spells to everyone -also- reflects in-game setups more closely (than not allowing anything, obviously), but I feel that damage spells only isn't close enough to an in-game setup to warrant this change just to water down the averages and make a handful of spell-less mages feel better and allow whole casts to own people with elemental weakness.

Conceivably, if the point of this is to help those spell-less mages, I would just make the claim that whoever ends up with the highest natural magic stat has access to a storebought damage spell of their choice... think of the stat as an 'affinity' for damage magic.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm pretty much the diametric opposite of Djinn.


One thing about rules is that they need to be as general as possible. Djinn, your interps to help out duellers are, to my mind, incredibly arbitrary - there's no consistent way to predict which set of stuff you'll dole out to each cast. It's a mix or arbitrary cutoffs and arbitrary plot claims many of which I personally find perplexing (the recent Aeris Enemy Skill hype was particularly indicative of this). If someone else were to adopt your views they would have to learn an incredibly long list of things. (I know I'd find it confusing to learn and keep track of the facts that Squall has Diablos and Rinoa has Leviathan or... whatever you gave them.) It is far more preferable, to my mind, to have general, flexible rules for who gets what, so that multiple people can take those rules and apply them to a new cast, and hopefully come to at least reconcilable conclusions. Additionally, this reduces the potential for favouritism which is a good thing.


Now, I'm still not sure about the idea that is the subject of this topic. However, it's been tossed around enough that it is worth a look. The DL rewards uniqueness. What is unique about CC mages, or Relm, or Aeris? Their magic stat. The DL gives these casts nothing to use their magic stat with, though, and this is bad. By giving the cast "damage magic", we actually reward uniquness. Think of "damage magic" as equivalent to the attack command. It's a way for a character to use his or her core stat to do damage. While you could ban attack commands (they are universal; many ban Defend and Item for that reason), doing so would remove the unique advantage that, say, Raquel has over Yulie or Gryz has over Rune. (It would also leave many duellers unable to do damage which of course is why you would never do this and why damage magic isn't fully comparable.)

Giving it to the whole cast tends to just inflate casts with elemental walling

I actually feel the opposite. No longer will Cleo be walled by fire protection because she has access to Wind, Earth, and Lightning damage. Granted, elemental defences do still matter (Suikoden mages take a hit when forced off of Lightning, in most cases) but less so. Additionally, with more elements at their disposal, mages have the ability to hit more weaknesses... which unlike you, I consider a good thing, because mages are usually good at hitting weaknesses in-game. Too bad for DDS and to a lesser extent CC/SH duellers that they bear the brunt of this, but you know what? Being weak to elements often sucked in those games, too. If no DDS PCs had elemental weaknesses the game would be much easier!


That said, while in some cases I think this clearly increases uniqueness (FF6, FF7, Mana Khemia 2 apparently) in other cases I am less sure, particularly VP and Suikoden. I was musing about leaving VP in particular exempt but Yakko observed in chat that yeah, I really shouldn't pick and choose. So... the ups and downs have to be weighed against each other. I'm pretty sure overall uniqueness -does- increase (along with stronger in-game reflection as a bonus), but this has to be weighed against the mechanical concerns of gathering stat topic info and generally rocking the boat, for instance.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm pretty much the diametric opposite of Djinn.

Well, that's a given.

(the recent Aeris Enemy Skill hype was particularly indicative of this).

Please note that I was mistaken about Aeris' claim to that particular materia. I was working off of hearsay. I have since rescinded that view.

Giving it to the whole cast tends to just inflate casts with elemental walling

I should note that I was thinking of full elemental walling, or casts that block almost all elements.

That said, while in some cases I think this clearly increases uniqueness (FF6, FF7, Mana Khemia 2 apparently) in other cases I am less sure, particularly VP and Suikoden. I was musing about leaving VP in particular exempt but Yakko observed in chat that yeah, I really shouldn't pick and choose. So... the ups and downs have to be weighed against each other. I'm pretty sure overall uniqueness -does- increase (along with stronger in-game reflection as a bonus), but this has to be weighed against the mechanical concerns of gathering stat topic info and generally rocking the boat, for instance.

DDS is another storebought skill game now that I think of it. Does this mean that all DDS PCs get their scaled starting skills + all elemental damage options?

I understand if you want to throw out plotclaims, I can see how you'd consider them arbitrary (though please note that I -do- have list of everything I consider a valid plotclaim in the DL Interps topic, so it's definitely not random or favoritism). But there's enough decent precedent for allowing affinity-based skills (GS, Dis certainly, but also FFX, CC, WA, and LoL to a lesser degree) and scaled-up starting skills (SaGa, DDS) that I prefer these methods to universal 'storebought magic casts get every element!' view. This still leaves Relm, Tia, Dahna, and Aeris crying, though, so I understand.

[Magic Fanatic]

I'm...  For the most part...  Against this.

The DL, in a sense, has its own rules, and while the rules are fairly strict in terms of what is allowed for any given situation, they are there for a reason - to exemplify what a character has/is given without too much tweaking in the game systems.  While I am almost Djinn-level bad for plot claims and extra allowances...  These are typically to one or two characters at a time.

Now, I am all for SPECIFIC storeboughts...  Like giving Cloud multiple copies of Bolt Materia for...  No adequately explained reason (turning him into a magical glass cannon?), if he wants stuff like Heal or Quake, I'm gonna have to go for a no.  Allowing all casts to have full storeboughts in any case makes them basically no less than carbon copies of each other.

Example?  Koyu vs. Kinnison.

Except for Koyu having a higher Tech rating than Kinnison and having an extra armor class to have access to (Lucky Rings, Sun Badges, and Fish Badges...  Joy), these two characters are basically the same.  The only reason that Koyu beats Kinnison now is because he has that Gale Rune and then they can each fail it up with physicals until Koyu outspeeds Kinnison greatly for the win.  With this?  It basically becomes a race on who can fry the other with their Lightning Rune first.  Before anyone asks, they both have Ds in everything, except Kinnison's C in Wind would would be disallowed simply for having Sleep and ID under these rules.

S1 fighter characters will now go straight for the runes that let them resist the opponent's more threatening damage.

Cyan will pretty much forsake any idea of using his unique (failure in the DL) skillset simply for any magic granted to him.

Saga Frontier?  Endgame magic damage in that fails anyway (according to my dungeon experience), the one one that'd consider caring is Rouge and the full Mystics (except TimeLord, he's just fine with Overdrive+TimeEclipse).



It starts weighing down on how many people will start just being copies of each other after this.  I'm all for uniqueness and options in the DL, but this is getting far and away from what I think is the right way to do it.

Chrono Cross?  Storebought elemental spells (and maybe not-tearing-my-hair-out-trapped-spells) that are the same as the actual character's element.  FF6?  Uh...  Nevermind on that.

Hell, even Disgaea loves you, since with enough Mana, you can buy skillsets off other characters, increasing their elemental viability.  Adell doesn't like Yukiko?  No problem, he casts Mega Ice.

Hi, FFXII!  Welcome to the DL, where we now have six copies of the same character!

In any case, having this go through would basically also require SERIOUS cast culling.

[DjinnAndTonic]

In any case, having this go through would basically also require SERIOUS cast culling.

Oh, actually if we did this, I'd be all for it. Cut all the 'basically no uniqueness thanks to storebought skills' casts down to one person and let them have everything. *nods*

[Dhyerwolf]

I may be alone, but I actually like elemental walling. Gives duellers another way to interact. If anyone, I'd say rank more people with weaknesses so that the other aspect of elements in game gets utilized! For that general reason (and because I don't think massive elemental weaknesses need to be overemphasized more; they already get hit enough in the DL). Not to mention that a few Suiko fighters are some of the few that actually make particular elemental resistances worthwhile at all (Earth for example).

That's why I'd lean towards being restrictive with magic and runes. This would also fit well into not throwing any extra magic spells on VP mages, since they already have something of a starting skillset.

Koyu vs Kinnison doesn't change much. Instead of bashing each other's heads in, they fry each other with Lightning.

On something like S2-S5, I'd go by a combo of affinity and magic. After all, having that affinity without having a solid stat to run off still leads to failure. Would at least be easy to whip up numbers for S4 if I was so inclined.

I'll also note that for me, it's not really about even up averages since I tend to go somewhat by in-game effects (Which is to say that if someone gets screwed by the DL format, I don't have a problem taking the overly blessed people a bit worse off. Example would be higher averages for Suiko Rune holders, comparing the damage for the PS 2 dragooner spell that he always uses at endgame to others in the damage average, etc...).

I like the overall idea, but its not horribly viable as an idea. I'll probably stick with a case-by-case basis.

[Clear Tranquil]

Uhh ... Djinn you're not "mistaken" Allow Aerith the Enemy Skill if you want. It felt right to you when you first did so and you shouldn't have to change it just because a bunch of people told you it was wrong (as people do for the majority of things you personally allow like GFs or Relm with Starlet or whatever - I'm sure anyone could go through them and provide a bunch of what but reasons for any one of them not to be allowed the stuff you've came up with just because and a lot of it's already been discussed before but yeah.

Stick to your guns muchacho!

**

As for this idea I'm half and half. I always find Djinn's method and ideas fascinating and interesting he often touches on things that I've also considered so that I have no problem with it when he votes that way. However I do recognise this is not as friendly for the for the casual player/voter (though the stat topic does help)

Personally I am more inclined to allow Aerith the Enemy Skill materia from the tank she was in because who do I actually stick it on? Aerith. Why - because Aerith has the best magic power (I think for a while - at least early on) so who does more damage with Matra Magic/Flamethrower/Beta/Aqualung? Aerith. Though Matra Magic may just be an HP demi spell I dun remember >_> I think I remember Aerith doing more damage with it than others <_< I use her Matra Magic/Flamethrower early on to build up the rest her limits depending on what I did with Cloud/Aerith and/or Cloud/Aerith/Tifa earlier. So yeah *I* know that a) the Enemy Skills gets magics and that Aerith will do the mosts with those magics and that b) Aerith will also do the most with Fire/Bolt/Ice materia or the All + Element combo at that stage but that c) green magic and red summon materia will lower stats while yellow and thus Enemy Skills magics won't but I also know that d) I can't possibly expect every new player to know/get that especially if they've never played a Final Fantasy game before. They might however if they have a medium of intelligence and registered that chick with a staff = mage have still stuck on some basic attack magic on Aerith. Magic is more powerful than physicals early on in FF7 too I believe.

On the other hand my penultimate disc one set up of Aerith with Umbrella + Champion's Belt + armour - w/th- Enemy Skill, Speed/HP/MP plus only is firmly within tweak/twink terrain and Aerith with Princess Guard + Champion's Belt + two allies down + multiple mastered counter materias definitely is! >_>

I suppose my main concern is that yeah magic materia might actually hinder rather than help the FF7 cast with the stat down thing. On the other hand I don't think that overall it makes casts less interesting. For example stat downs aside magic Aerith might arise to Middle! This is definitely not noninteresting to me! <_< On the other hand Kongol's magic damage still sucks so no everyone definitely does not become Godlikes/clones/immediately better with this.


Magic - Cloud wouldn't have Heal (that ... cures statuses?) - the idea is damage only. Cloud''s a Godlike anyway irrc? So it probably wouldn't change him that much especially since yeah he already has magic damage anyway >_>

Like Dhyer I usually like elemental walling (though only to an extent - I have been getting a bit fed up of it lately) but I also like the idea of having more ways to counter it >_>

[Yoshiken]

I'm.. thinking it'll be good to allow things -in moderation-. For example, FFVII Fire/Ice/Bolt is storebought from the very start of the game, so sure, allow that. Poison? Quake? HP/MP Plus? Not quite as easy to find.
As for things like DDS (2, at least), just no. I give them any other mantra on the way to the final one for their starting paths, but that's it.
Pokemon, I think I'll only allow them for the same-type Pokémon, which might not change too much, but might help out Onix/Gastly for the dungeon, at least. (Earthquake hype for Steelix. Yeah.)
FF6... FFVI doesn't have storebought magic, does it? And the only Espers that are storebought are one-time only, so there's no real argument there. FFVIII doesn't have any storeboughts either, right?

Suikoden. This is the problematic one. I'd go with the rune affinities or something, I guess, although anyone who gets Wind suddenly gets 2-3 new tricks, and that's just a ridiculous jump in divisions for such a minor change. :/


Oh, and I'd definitely not give Aeris Enemy Skill using CT's logic. By saying "But she's got the highest magic stat, you WOULD give her the magic!", you're just giving her free reign over all magic in-game, because she'll get the most use out of it. (Although, reminds me, Cloud has a claim to one of the Enemy Skills...)

[Pyro]

For the record: I am for this and have been for some time. NEB pointed out the reasons rather well. (and while VP mages become more generic copies of each other, to be honest it changes zilch for their dueling worth or style, they were boring copies to begin with).

Storebought damage magic is a perfect analog for storebought weapons. Both sometimes have elements (and I don't hear much BAN ELEMENTAL WEAPONS hype). The only difference is that Magic tends to take MP/TP/whatever while physicals do not. Both allow a character to make use of a stat to do damage using commonly available means. The addendum that the attacks in question must be commonly available ensures there isn't some arbitrary twinking system going on.

This isn't giving the entire FF8 cast Haste/healing or something. Reiterated for those who seem to have missed it: This is for DAMAGE MAGIC ONLY. Not healing/status spells like on the Suiko wind runes.

As far as "eliminating uniqueness!" goes... it does this about as much as allowing storebought weaponry that multiple people can use does. The aforementioned Koyu vs. Kinnison matchup has them both failing it up with weak physicals until the fact that Koyu is actually fast as hell makes him win it cleanly. That isn't so different from both of them failing it up with weak lighting/fire magic until the fact that Koyu is fast as hell makes him win cleanly.

And this is a far, far better way to handle it then some completely arbitrary varies-from-person-to-person plot claim stuff that leaves little to no common ground for discussion or debate. Seriously, making Aeris and only Aeris a Godlike via Enemy Skill based off some farfetched plot claim? I like Aeris quite a bit, and I think that allowance is untenable.

Anyways. I was hoping to get some specific discussions of duelers who are effected by this. It would be very nice if Dhyer weighed in on Chrono Cross and Suikoden, Super weighed in on Lufia 2, Tal on MK, and so on. I realize that this would indeed be "rocking the boat", but it is a completely reasonable take and can reward uniqueness while making things truer to in-game performance. I think that could be a good thing if the logistics of getting numbers can be dealt with.

[Magic Fanatic]

As far as "eliminating uniqueness!" goes... it does this about as much as allowing storebought weaponry that multiple people can use does. The aforementioned Koyu vs. Kinnison matchup has them both failing it up with weak physicals until the fact that Koyu is actually fast as hell makes him win it cleanly. That isn't so different from both of them failing it up with weak lighting/fire magic until the fact that Koyu is fast as hell makes him win cleanly.

It should be noted that Koyu is only "Fast as Hell" as long as he has that Gale Rune on his ONLY (as in he only has the one) Rune Slot.  If he doesn't have that Gale Rune?  He's only as fast as Kinnison...  And considering that the only game with actually GOOD physical rates in the series is S1, to which magic makes physicals pale in comparison for the rest of the series...  Do I need to continue this thought?

Also to note, here:

100 mag: 7/4/2/1
115 mag: 8/4/2/1

Up to and at level 60, Kinnison and Koyu have the EXACT same magic stat, ending up at ~117 at level 60.  If you want to penalize them those five levels for the low end of the spectrum of levels, they instead have ~108 MAG.  So, one shot of an L4 and two L3s off a Lightning Rune, yes?

An L4 off a Lightning Rune...  Is much similar to a turn 1 S1 critical'd physical.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hi, FFXII!  Welcome to the DL, where we now have six copies of the same character!

It's almost like FFXII does indeed have six copies of the same character. There is a reason we aren't ranking it. <_<

Cyan will pretty much forsake any idea of using his unique (failure in the DL) skillset simply for any magic granted to him.

Nope! His game-worst Magic stat will hold his Fire 3 to about 2000 damage, which is also where his Dispatch is.

S1 fighter characters will now go straight for the runes that let them resist the opponent's more threatening damage.

Added effects of magic are not allowed, S1 gets no elemental resistance hype from me. YMMV on this one, of course, it's not too important.

[Meeplelard]

Just want to make a comment about the "AERITH HAS GAME BEST MAGIC HYPE!"

This is practically unnoticeable in game for most of the time she's around.  The difference between her and other PCs is rather small.  FF7 is a game where stat differences get MORE noticeable as the game goes on, not less (Damage cap issues aside), due to how equipment bonuses work.  Tifa's best Magic Boosting equip is +34, and only 4 Materia Slots to boot (thus she can at best gain only 4 Materia slots worth of (minor) boosts.)  Contrast this to Vincent who, not only having a higher base in a game where growths only show off more later more so than earlier, has a +48 or so weapon on an 8 Materia Slot weapon, and that's not even his best.  This is why Magic Power differences are more noticeable later than earlier...and Aeris doesn't exist later.

Or as an alternative...
Look at the 2 Triple Growth weapons, Apocalypse and Scimitar.  if you've cast magic with them, you may have noticed Cloud does A LOT more than Cid with them, assuming one isn't cheating with Magic PLus or MP Turbo or something...
Is this cause Cloud's basic magic is so much better!?
No, its cause Apocalypse gives a nice healthy +43 Magic Power (one of the highest in the game, especially for a Non-Ultimate), whiile Scimitar gives a piddling +20~. 

Aeris has a significant Magic Boost for like 5 minutes in Train Graveyard when Striking Staff appears; by the time she rejoins, Cloud has gotten Hard Edge, and in a short period of time, Barret can get Atomic Scissors and Tifa the Grand Glove.  IF we ignore these hard to get Steals, she gets nothing.

After that, her Magic edge is pretty dang minor until Temple of Ancients, when she's using a 22 Magic Weapon contrast to the +14~ other characters are using (its only a 7 Materia slot weapon too.)

All Storebought Magic does for the FF7 cast is raise Tifa, Vincent and Barret's damage, frankly.  It raises them to be about 3000~ damage when every else is doing over 4000 with their physicals. 

Honestly, Aeris has game best magic, that's not in dispute...but its honestly not much of an edge to be wholey significant.  What are significant advantages of her are her unique Limits (entirely support oriented), and the existence of the Fairy Tail, an early game 7 Materia Slot weapon when best at the time is 4.   These factors are more likely reasons to use Aeris than her game best magic.

Oh yeah!  This also doesn't account that, in my current playthrough, Aeris is generally underleveled for a good while.  No, not hideously so, but she's at least a level or two below what others are, cause she:
A. Joins with a level penalty initially
B. Requires more EXP than most to get her level up

So her Magic Edge is even less than it should be, cause lower level = lower magic *AND* FF7 factors levels directly into damage, so she's doing less damage too.  Her offensive advantage on Magic is really quite meaningless in game, and all this does in the DL is polarize FF7 characters to have a damage floor, which...I dunno, doesn't sound like its necessarily a good thing, nor does it necessarily up uniquess, more just polarizes the cast in a different way, and her game best magic is more an academic thing and not really an "in game use thing."

Contrast this to, say, Relm, whose Magic Power allows her do a lot more than the likes of Cyan.  For simple contrast, Celes does 4000 damage in the DL with her Flare; Cyan does a little over half that.  These Magic Power differences are applicable fairly early too, unlike FF7 where the differences are only significant later on.  So it is reflective more of overall in game performance, not just "last section of the game!" performance.  Granted, FF6 has issues that make things not reflected in game to the DL, but then, every game has something like that; few games have perfect transitiion into the DL.

TO branch from that, FF6 lacks storebought magic anyway.  Even if you allowed everyone Level 2's, though, nothing really changes; even Relm has problems outdamaging her basic physical end game with level 2's!

[James_xeno]

If you mean "storebought" magic skills, like in Grandia, then hell yes, why not. (as in part of a unique set skillset for each character) For games like Chrono Cross, with a free/open skill grid, yeah but. Only if it's of a character's innate element, then yes, it really shouldn't be an issue. But again, only if there's a good reason. (innate element, etc.)

Games like Suikoden, Final Fantasy VII or others like them. I'm not so sure. It would have to be case by case at least.

[Nephrite]

I'm all for something that lets me vote on Milich Oppenheimer with a Lightning Rune with less concern for feeling guilty.

[Dark Holy Elf]

TO branch from that, FF6 lacks storebought magic anyway.  Even if you allowed everyone Level 2's, though, nothing really changes; even Relm has problems outdamaging her basic physical end game with level 2's!

I was thinking Fire 3 was easily accessible enough to the entire cast to be legal; you need to gain 300 AP after acquiring Phoenix and Tritoch (you can gain 4% per AP, 25 AP to learn x 12 PCs = 300), which seems reasonably doable (especially since final dungeon fights give out 5ish apiece). For Flare and Pearl this number is 600, which seems less reasonable. I guess for Quake it's 408 but I'm leery about Quake for a few reasons anyway, so drawing the line between Fire 3 and Quake is cool by me.

The operative question for me is "can this ability be reasonably obtained in-game for every single PC who can use it, without resorting to grinding" and I think Fire 3 passes.


Aeris is still helped by this view because her damage no longer sucks, which is fine because her damage didn't suck in-game due to magic (though yeah I remember Cloud having more, probably due to levels!). That said, she is possibly still Light even (Seal Evil is her only useful Limit against anyone with more damage than Palmer), though might swing low Middle.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Uhh ... Djinn you're not "mistaken" Allow Aerith the Enemy Skill if you want. It felt right to you when you first did so and you shouldn't have to change it just because a bunch of people told you it was wrong (as people do for the majority of things you personally allow like GFs or Relm with Starlet or whatever - I'm sure anyone could go through them and provide a bunch of what but reasons for any one of them not to be allowed the stuff you've came up with just because and a lot of it's already been discussed before but yeah.

Stick to your guns muchacho!

I didn't rescind that position because people told me it was 'wrong'. However, because of their suggestions, I took the time to go back and look at the scene in question in the game (on youtube). The E.Skill materia in question really -doesn't- have anything to do with Aeris. So I'm not allowing it for her.

And this is a far, far better way to handle it then some completely arbitrary varies-from-person-to-person plot claim stuff that leaves little to no common ground for discussion or debate. Seriously, making Aeris and only Aeris a Godlike via Enemy Skill based off some farfetched plot claim? I like Aeris quite a bit, and I think that allowance is untenable.

Alright, I'm pointing this out again because I don't like being used as some kind of example of 'arbitrary' to make your idea of giving magic to -everybody- sound so much more reasonable. My views are not arbitrary. Yes, I allow a generous number of plotclaim equips/skills, but there are reasons for them. The Aeris/E.Skill thing was a mistake I made based on misinformation. When CT originally pointed out when the E.Skill materia was gained, it sounded like it was something directly tied to Aeris, whereupon actually watching the scene again, I quickly discovered that it did -not- fit my set criteria for plotclaim.

[Dhyerwolf]

Anyways. I was hoping to get some specific discussions of duelers who are effected by this. It would be very nice if Dhyer weighed in on Chrono Cross and Suikoden, Super weighed in on Lufia 2, Tal on MK, and so on. I realize that this would indeed be "rocking the boat", but it is a completely reasonable take and can reward uniqueness while making things truer to in-game performance. I think that could be a good thing if the logistics of getting numbers can be dealt with.

The CC numbers are all found in the topic! But sure, let's take the effect it has on Riddel (the person who gains the most from it). Note that I'm assuming my own views on this to play these numbers, although all the averages are in the topic.

The three turn average with no recharge (Which I throw out as I assume in game, you're 2 other PCs attacking will get you back to full and such) is 499. The average with elements thrown is is 535. Measly 7% increase, so it's not a drastic change on the averages at least. With no elements, Riddel's average damage is a piddly 204 or 16% to average. Using my view of limited slots and storebought damage magic, Riddel is now unleashing various levels of Meteorshowers upon the enemies at the end of her attacks. She now does 464 on average those first three turns or about 35% to average. She's still not good, but having her damage double is certainly helpful! Note that this damage holds if you allow her all elements or just white (Although the average should rise a little if you allow them all all elements solely because the black storebought elements lack an Level 4 damage spell. The rise will be pretty insignificant). So mages still aren't great (since high level is still off the table), but the increase for the bottom of the chain is pretty notable and no one loses out too badly.

I'll also play with a few PCs from S4, just for the idea. Depending on how you take averages now for S4, they should vary from about 1050-1150. Let's look at oh...Chiepoo and Viki.

Chiepoo- 2 in Fire and Lightning, 3 in Earth. He'll have about a single shot of 800 EQ (Which is definetely still a major step up given that his current damage is around 250. Of course, unless CC, my gut is that the damage average is probably getting a major rise. For the sake of ease, let's just assume it doesn't for comparison's sake). Lightning...I'll admit that I don't have good numbers for a 2 affinity around 115 magic (There wasn't any DL reason to test that line up). I'd estimate...850 for the L4, 560 for the L3 (Affinities sometimes just weren't that potent). So notably better than the Earth rune.

Viki- 3s in everything at her level of magic=basically doing the max damage with no ITD spillover. 1350 Lightning magic! (Barely scrapes up 2 shots at endgame) 1200 Earthquake! Similarly, Wendel, a far less relevant person with worse affinities gets the 1350 Lightning magic, but EQ and the best fire spell are more around 950 and 600 respectively.

If you aren't getting an L4, you still at least gain magic damage, given you a nice option against physical walls (Damage will still improve though, if not always by much). Yukari now shudders from almost the whole of all Suikoscrubs in Light.

VP isn't too big a deal (but that's the nature of VP mages), although it certainly takes some of the luster of VP:DS mages. But I guess that falls in line with my view of being more limited with what I'd hand out under these views. For that I realize it creates niches that people could break out of in game, the DL somewhat does it anyways! So I don't mind too much.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Alright, I'm pointing this out again because I don't like being used as some kind of example of 'arbitrary' to make your idea of giving magic to -everybody- sound so much more reasonable. My views are not arbitrary. Yes, I allow a generous number of plotclaim equips/skills, but there are reasons for them. The Aeris/E.Skill thing was a mistake I made based on misinformation. When CT originally pointed out when the E.Skill materia was gained, it sounded like it was something directly tied to Aeris, whereupon actually watching the scene again, I quickly discovered that it did -not- fit my set criteria for plotclaim.

Djinn, if you really do want to not be used as a posterboy for inconsistent plot claim reasoning, you'll have to set your plot claim rules in stone a lot more firmly than you've given evidence to. No offense, but you seem to scramble for some reason to give someone something before actually looking at why would it make sense for the person to get that claim or not (using that very example still, you got all excited over the idea of a E. Skill materia being near Aeris at some point to give it to her before actually looking into why the claim was questionable for your standards). It's one thing trying to work in plot claims for things, but I think you approach this from the wrong angle.

Just about -everything- has some sort of flimsy plot claim for stuff. However, you seem rather enamored with the idea of making the plot connections and allowing the skillset, leaving the actual analytic reasoning as an afterthought - and that's poor form for consistent interpretation. The very way you described how you concocted the plot claim shows -where- the train of thoughts are going wrong. You thought it sounded like something that could be directly tied to Aeris. Instead of actually taking the time to check up whether it was the case or not, you jumped straight into ZOMG E.SKILL AERIS HYPE. Backpedalling faster bitch doesn't undo a primary mistake made - and I'll point out that you tend to be quick to jump into a mad generosity hype train before actually looking into it further.

Even further, even if this was within your bounds of allowed plot claims, what about other characters who get similarly weak plot claims? Would you allow Fiery Rage to Virginia because she's holding that medium in a single scene, then never looks at it again? Would you allow S1 Pesmerga that Rage Rune you find in the same room as he is recruited (because that's more or less the level of plot connection between Aeris and the E. Skill materia – or Red and the E. Skill materia, for that matter!)? Unfortunately, when dealing with plot claims, you -really- need a fairly strongly constructed methodology to back up your reasoning, otherwise it'll just look like you're indulging in favoritism, whether you intend to or not. Also notice you didn't even touch upon the idea of Red XIII getting that materia instead, which subtly points to the problem here (I'm sure this was out of honest excitement - but that doesn't mitigate the problem. It's a consistent problem with your approach, getting more interested in having a reason to give someone something than actually mulling the reason itself and its pros and cons out). This is why I dislike ethereal plot claims - if "zomg he spent five minutes near that materia it's totally his" or "zomg it's hidden in a basement in her house that she never bothered to check" is a good enough plot claim, then you're just rationalizing unnecessarily. Basically, if all it takes is existing near those things, then why not just allow everybody something like storebought materia, for instance? It's frankly far more elegant than scrambling for plot claims and far -fairer- to the casts. Creating entirely arbitrary uniqueness splits in casts due to esoteric excuses masquerading as plot claims that have no gameplay backing at all (starting equips are a form of gameplay backing before you grab into that line of thought: starting equipments or runes are very often conscious design choices and serve various gameplay purposes - to give you some extra clout that you may not have on a certain character before that point, to highlight a strength of the character in affinities, to give him a reason to be recruited, etc.) is more of a disservice to game casts than them getting screwed over by uniqueness problems is, because it shifts balance in a way that is entirely untrue to the character dynamics in-game -and- gives leeway for favoritism to come into the forefront.

I'm not saying you -do- engage in favoritism, but I -am- saying the approach you take is highly liable to that problem, and you should not approach it with as little forethought and as much recklessness as you have repeatedly done. You take approaches that require immense effort to keep track of sanely and beg for tons of research, but you often hand the candy before doing the homework. That's just very poor form. You might want to analyze the possibilities laid out in front of you at least a bit more carefully before you engage in hype, as you already noticed that sticking your foot into your mouth isn't a comfortable position to be in. I highly respect interp positions that have strong internal consistency and clearly shown effort, even if I don't agree with them (Tal's various interpretation oddities strike me as particularly exemplary here). But being demonstrably unable to even keep track of a basic interpretative boundary shows the interp's sailing otherwise pretty fast.

[DjinnAndTonic]

For that I realize it creates niches that people could break out of in game, the DL somewhat does it anyways! So I don't mind too much.

Huh. I think this gets at the issue I have with the view more than anything else. It may not be a good reason, but I think I like the fact that the DL creates niches, and this particular view destroys more of those niches than anything else I've really seen, so I dislike it. I'm not saying somebody shouldn't take up this view, but it's the reason I don't think I'll be taking it up.

I'll have to point out that...
It's one thing trying to work in plot claims for things, but I think you approach this from the wrong angle.

Ouch. Truth hurts. I -do- like the idea of giving characters skills, even characters I don't like such as Aeris.

Unfortunately, when dealing with plot claims, you -really- need a fairly strongly constructed methodology to back up your reasoning, otherwise it'll just look like you're indulging in favoritism, whether you intend to or not.

Alright, well, these are my guidelines, and I generally try to avoid straying outside of these.
Plot Claim guidelines:
- If a character is ever directly handed an item/equip/ability in a plot scene, it is legal. If said item was stated as being directly for another character instead, this item is only legal for that character.
- If an item/equip/ability is found in a specific character's belongings (their home, backpack, ship, etc.), that character has legal claim to it. (This is what I thought was happening in the Aeris/E.Skill scenario, but you're right, I should have checked it before I did anything stupid like voting on it... oh wait.)
- If an item/equip/ability requires a certain character to obtain, the item is legal for that character. This discludes the main in many cases as s/he will be the onscreen character. If the main is alone, then they have claim to it.
- If a character is ever shown holding or using the item/equip/ability in a plot scene, then the item is legal for that character.
- If a character is ever shown using abilities or effects of an item/equip, it is assumed that they have access to all abilities/effects granted by an item/equip.
- If only one character is capable of using an item/equip/ability when it is found, it is legal for that character.
- If another game in a series indicates that a character has claim to an item/equip/ability, it is legal for that character.
- Innate or high-level affinity for an item/equip/ability may be considered as supplementary plot claim, but on its own is insufficient.
- Initial equipment may be extrapolated to determine endgame equipment in certain cases (tentative).

Plot claims for items/equips/skills are generally allowed, even weak claims. However, this is decided on a case-by-case basis.
e.g. (these examples are ones that I'm considering allowing, but want to hear arguments for/against) FF7 materia (Yuffie's Leviathan, Cloud's Destruct), WA3/WA5 Mediums, GS Djinn, SaGaF weapons/skills, VP1 hometown equips (Arngrim/DragonSlayer, Belenus/Pressed Flower, etc), G3 guardian orbs, WAo Guardians, FF6 summons/equips (Locke/Phoenix Cave stuff, Terra/Maduin, Celes/Palidor, Cyan/Alexander, there might be others?), S1 Cleo Fire rune, FF8 (GFs), Lufias (L2 magic based on L1 prologue forms)


I feel that these are reasonable criteria, and yes, I suppose they could take a lot of research to keep track of, but even keeping track of starting equipment is troublesome. I'm not saying everyone should adopt my views, but since I have these views, I tend to profess them when voting and discussing characters. More importantly, if I -don't- mention how these views effect a character before voting comes along, then if I have made a mistake, no one will point it out to me until it's too late. Seriously, I hyped Aeris/E.Skill, people were like 'Uhh... no.' - with their input, it was very easy to look it up, and I discovered the problem. And all before it ever came up in a voting situation. I kind of thought this was the point of discussing views in the first place?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Certainly. But you said you don't like being seen as someone who hands things arbitrarily. I just went out of my way to show -why- you are seen that way via basic rethreading of past actions. What makes me uncomfortable with your approach is that you seem to skimp the heavy homework the view itself requires – I don't even blame you for it, but if you look at a view and realize you won't be able to keep up with its demands, then not adopting it is probably a better idea instead of adopting it and handwaving it entirely with reckless abandon. KISS is usually a good tenet to adopt in many situations, and you might want to apply that a bit more often, because it's obvious you sorta drown in the many caveats you generate yourself.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Certainly. But you said you don't like being seen as someone who hands things arbitrarily. I just went out of my way to show -why- you are seen that way via basic rethreading of past actions. What makes me uncomfortable with your approach is that you seem to skimp the heavy homework the view itself requires – I don't even blame you for it, but if you look at a view and realize you won't be able to keep up with its demands, then not adopting it is probably a better idea instead of adopting it and handwaving it entirely with reckless abandon. KISS is usually a good tenet to adopt in many situations, and you might want to apply that a bit more often, because it's obvious you sorta drown in the many caveats you generate yourself.

It's not that I'm skimping the heavy homework, it's a pacing process. I can't be expected to redo 80+ stat topics all at once, can I? This is something that I have been doing steadily for a long time now, checking for these things as I play new games, and reading FAQs for old games as the subject comes up. When a particularly difficult claim comes up (such as E.Skill), I generally start by asking the DL rather than replaying an entire game. It's a time issue, but I enjoy doing the homework and I -have- been working on posting how my views effect duelists. I have lists of Grandia, SH, Lunar, Lufia, FF8, FF7, and SaGa already circulating around the forums. Still working on the SaGa one in particular, and I just recently posted a series of lists for 4 Suikoden games... I don't think I'm skimping at all!

[Luther Lansfeld]

I'm sort of curious about one thing, Djinn -- what do you mean by giving SaGa Frontier characters scaled up starting skills. Don't a lot of people allow SF characters their weapon skills?

Uhh ... Djinn you're not "mistaken" Allow Aerith the Enemy Skill if you want. It felt right to you when you first did so and you shouldn't have to change it just because a bunch of people told you it was wrong (as people do for the majority of things you personally allow like GFs or Relm with Starlet or whatever - I'm sure anyone could go through them and provide a bunch of what but reasons for any one of them not to be allowed the stuff you've came up with just because and a lot of it's already been discussed before but yeah.

Stick to your guns muchacho!

I didn't rescind that position because people told me it was 'wrong'. However, because of their suggestions, I took the time to go back and look at the scene in question in the game (on youtube). The E.Skill materia in question really -doesn't- have anything to do with Aeris. So I'm not allowing it for her.

A person is allowed to rescind their views if someone argues them down. If you are completely unwilling to change your views, then discourse on the DL is completely pointless. It takes someone who is really trying to do the right thing to be willing to change a view like that with ample evidence.

Go Djinn.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Certainly. But you said you don't like being seen as someone who hands things arbitrarily. I just went out of my way to show -why- you are seen that way via basic rethreading of past actions. What makes me uncomfortable with your approach is that you seem to skimp the heavy homework the view itself requires – I don't even blame you for it, but if you look at a view and realize you won't be able to keep up with its demands, then not adopting it is probably a better idea instead of adopting it and handwaving it entirely with reckless abandon. KISS is usually a good tenet to adopt in many situations, and you might want to apply that a bit more often, because it's obvious you sorta drown in the many caveats you generate yourself.

It's not that I'm skimping the heavy homework, it's a pacing process. I can't be expected to redo 80+ stat topics all at once, can I?

If you're going to take a view that does require that? I'd expect you to -do the whole work- before actually adopting the view so you don't just handwave things, or to, at the very least, cursorily analyze the new info that crops in before jumping into conclusions. And there's where your recklessness kicks in. It's glaring when you see "possible plot claim for something" and you go straight to "X dueller for Heavy! hype" mode instead of "wait a minute, let me double-check this and see if it's viable, and if it -is- viable, how it affects this character" – the latter stage is often an afterthough, and it shouldn't be. Your enthusiasm is cute, but you often outsmart yourself this way. Just keep that in mind. Also, Ciato speaks truth.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I feel the opposite of Snow -- I think that conceptually feeling out the views and trying to see what other people think about the way they work and stuff is not a particularly bad thing. To be fair, the only reason I don't deviate my own views is because I am far too lazy to make my own stat topics. Except for Kimahri, because bashing Kim is worth the effort (and I have no idea why the least biased and most logical view of him isn't in the topic...)