Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL

[Taishyr]

Eh, on this one I'm somewhat in agreement with Djinn re: pacing.

If this were a job/SRS BSNS your approach would make sense to me, Snow, but... it's not, we're here to have fun/discuss things for amusement and interest, having to double-check/fact check everything isn't always entertaining and thus we may just go with a cursory feel/assumption (Hi, Ice Queen Avril!). Yes, jumping into "x for Heavy" may need to be retracted, may be flat out wrong. Okay. Amusing hype can still be amusing even if it's proven wrong at a possible later date. Not my mindset to make that jump (hi, taking very few hype assumptions in FFTA2 that didn't prove right! (screw Berserkers)), nor do I think it's yours, Snow, but it's still valid - so long as people are willing to change when they're in error, no matter which view they take.

This being said kinda generally agree with your arguments otherwise and thus cookies for all around. Iunno.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

It only becomes a reason to argue for me when the person starts seriously believing the hype and jumping into the train and then starts looking at people like a puppy dog who fell out of the car while the family is on the move to another town. That and I like arguing. I also know I sound a lot more serious and stern than I actually am regarding those things, but I find I need to be assertive in debate to even be worth responding to.

[Cmdr_King]

Except for Kimahri, because bashing Kim is worth the effort (and I have no idea why the least biased and most logical view of him isn't in the topic...)

Because it's not really necessary.  He can't lose to the handful of people with comperable stats than him (they don't have skillsets ie lose to E&C) and we can safely guarantee he loses all slugging matches.

On topic: I see no compelling reason to really go with this, though it's a neat intellectual exercise and, as seen with Suikoden III, I'm not adverse to running through them as such.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm sort of curious about one thing, Djinn -- what do you mean by giving SaGa Frontier characters scaled up starting skills. Don't a lot of people allow SF characters their weapon skills?

They do. It's partly the basis of why I allow it. I think the only difference between me and other people here is that I would allow higher-level SaGaF magic spells based on starting magic spells even if said character doesn't have the Gift. This only effects Nusakan, Doll, Mei-Ling, Mesarthim, and WhiteRose... and of them, only WhiteRose is ranked. I think I may also allow Monsters to get higher level forms based on their starting skills, but they also aren't ranked.

It only becomes a reason to argue for me when the person starts seriously believing the hype and jumping into the train and then starts looking at people like a puppy dog who fell out of the car while the family is on the move to another town.

You know, there is some precedent to plot claim in the DL, I just looked at that, then decided on a set of criteria I felt counted as generally indicative of decent plot claim. It -is- more generous than most, but it's a serious interpretation and had Aeris' claim to that E.Skill been as strong as it seemed to me at first, I wouldn't have any qualms allowing it.

I don't appreciate being called a puppy when I'm being pretty open-minded about this criticism though. Especially after all the work I have been putting into this view -and- posting for review. I know I joke about how I 'like handing out skillsets', but that's because I'm not unaware that my view is uncommon/unique. But my reasons are rooted in similar desires as yours - to see DL characters reflect their in-game performance and to be fair/consistent when interpreting casts.

As long as I'm following that, I really don't appreciate being called arbitrary or unthoughtful. Especially when I come to you guys for review and help when I realize I need it.

[Luther Lansfeld]

You mean that you would give White Rose Mega Windblast or something? That seems really fair to me.

I agree with Djinn. I think you are being pretty cruel to him for just trying something new out. It's a hard thing to balance and I think he is trying to do it in the most fair way possible.

Cmdr: ALENIA!! But more seriously it affects the rest of the cast too.

[Bardiche]

I'm personally in favour of methods that bring it closer to the actual in-game.

When WA5 was initially ranked, I expressed how absurd I found it to not give anyone (excepting Carol and Greg) any Mediums, based on the criteria that "plot claims" were too vague or too controversial. I pointed out that I found Final Fantasy 8's "non-GF" rankings equally absurd since it did not at all reflect in-game performance of the PCs.

A controversial plot claim, for example, would be Dean/Rebecca mediums. Dean and Rebecca are, together, given two Mediums. However, since neither of the two can be said to be the designated user of one of the two mediums, both are tossed out altogether and not given to the two. Perhaps there is the argument that Avril could use them just as well at that moment. (to which my kneejerk response is, "She literally gets handed the Mountain Medium later, making that her plot medium.")

Another is, I believe, Squall's Quetzalcoatl/Shiva Guardian Forces, who are both stored in his PC but apparently not considered legal Guardian Forces for him to use. I may be wrong there, so kindly correct me if I am. I haven't looked at Final Fantasy 8 controversy in a while, and didn't really bother with Djinn's tournament exploring the cast's improvements aside from a cursory glance.

->

On the other hand, I do agree with views wherein, say, Suikoden mages are restricted to the Runes they begin with. I'm really not too interested in seeing Kinnison Lightning Rune hype. (although Rody hype can't ever possibly hurt, because it's Rody)

I guess my criteria falls more to games that are left out of the loop with PCs whose options are "Attack, Defend, Genuflect" under DL-legal views, whereas the in-game is decidedly more "Attack, Defend, Magic, Skills, Limit Break, Special Action Kawaii Sou Ne Sugoi Desu" than the afore-mentioned three options.

To the point, I don't think it's very good to hand all games all "damaging" moves while neglecting status/buffing. Characters with good damage due to being given a unique, damaging skillset will lose that particular niche, which would make the DL feel less unique and more bland, is my kneejerk reaction. It probably sounds contradicting, and I'm afraid I cannot argue it as not being so... but I think handing PCs their in-game particulars would be better for games that would otherwise leave us with a blank cast.

[Luther Lansfeld]

The problem with FF8 is just that, if you only give Squall GFs, that reflects even less of in-game and makes the entire rest of the cast godawful, which is even worse than just not allowing them at all unless you love Squall and hate everyone else.

What do you mean by in-game particulars?

[Cmdr_King]

The way people react to FFX as is, I don't think inflating them via temp-that-doesn't-leave is the best course of action >.>

[Bardiche]

I understand that, Ciato. That is why I acknowledged it as a controversial plot claim. Much the same as Dean/Rebecca, since arbitrarily handing them the Medium would be unfair if, say, Dean would really like Healing but gets Offense and people can't decide over that. (To me, by the way, Dean gets the Attack Magic Medium, strengthened by how he is offensive and gets a Tim costume, while Rebecca is more "support" (she even gives support fire from afar) and gets a Yulie costume to push her into Healing Medium for me.)

In-game particulars refer to such things as Mediums for the Wild ARMs casts who are deprived, or Guardian Forces for the Final Fantasy 8 casts. I understand that it is easier to just not bother with the intense research required since, as someone pointed out just a few posts earlier, this is a hobby and not a srs bsns job thing that should require a lot of research and everything. For that reason I understand and accept that the casts I mentioned are not reflected as to how they perform in-game, and I also do not typically vote on those things unless I feel reasonably able to do so.

I feel reasonably able to vote on views differing from DL-legal views if I feel that that represents the character better to me, and when I have a clear understanding of just how it would affect them, and what I allow and don't allow.

[Luther Lansfeld]

The problem with FF8 is that who the heck decides who gets what? Do you just pick what you personally did? Do you assign it based off joining order? What the hell even represents an FF8 character, which is simply an avatar for a skillset in-game?

[Bardiche]

Which is why it falls under this clause:

I feel reasonably able to vote on views differing from DL-legal views if I feel that that represents the character better to me, and when I have a clear understanding of just how it would affect them, and what I allow and don't allow.

As there is no way to ascertain what makes a character 'represented' for me (Selphie with Doom Train honestly doesn't differ much from Quetzalcoatl Selphie to me) I feel reasonably confident in just leaving that mess alone and not thinking on it. I'll admit I'm rather lazy in that regard.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Also you would never give Squall both Shiva and Quetz, you would give one to Quistis for the lava cave and then later one to Zell/Selphie for Dollet. Plotclaims that are something you wouldn't do in-game can just bite me.

To a lesser extent this is my problem with, say, Locke/Phoenix hype (and other FF6 plot espers... I am picking on Locke/Phoenix because I consider it the BEST such claim, not the worst). You don't just give Phoenix to one person in-game, so giving it to just one person in the DL rubs me wrong.

(Contrast this to Cleo's Fire Rune - you must give that Fire Rune to one person, and not only is it given to Cleo, she is by far the best choice to receive it.)


Also I support Dean/Mountain, Avril/Sky, and Rebecca/Sea if I gave them mediums which I do not. Dean is the hero talked about in the Mountain Medium shrine, Avril is the girl from the sky, and Rebecca is process-of-elimination'd. (The fact that there are so many different ways to divide these three mediums highlights the problem with doing so, though.)

[Bardiche]

09:30 leads me to give the Mountain Medium to Avril, as well as Old Man Tony explicitly giving the other two Mediums to Dean. Then comes the costume/characterisation things.

Whereas I'm not sure if I want to vote on Dean/Avril as being entitled to the Sea/Sky Mediums, I'm pretty set on Avril==Mountain, because they state, "I believe this is yours" and give it to her.

[Dark Holy Elf]

It's hers the way... all the mediums are? Unless I'm going crazy she made them all. AVRIL WITH ALL SIX MEDIUMS HYPE sure why not.

[Bardiche]

Hey I can get behind that.

All things serious, yes, it is. But it was explicitly given to her, was my point, for her to use. (I... believe the Baskars gave it to her to use anyhow.)

[DjinnAndTonic]

It's hers the way... all the mediums are? Unless I'm going crazy she made them all. AVRIL WITH ALL SIX MEDIUMS HYPE sure why not.

I'm pretty set on Avril==Mountain, because they state, "I believe this is yours" and give it to her.

I'm thinking it's the combination of these two things that makes Avril's plotclaim to it pretty strong.

[DjinnAndTonic]

The problem with FF8 is that who the heck decides who gets what? Do you just pick what you personally did? Do you assign it based off joining order? What the hell even represents an FF8 character, which is simply an avatar for a skillset in-game?

Well, my solution to the problem was to give each character a GF based on their starting compatibility with each GF, which are different and unique. Admittedly, compatibility is very easy to adjust simply by using the GF or magic. However, we allow initial equips, so why not allow something based on initial affinity? This is at least some gameplay-based backing for allowing a feature of FF8's battle system that is far more prevalent than their Limit breaks. I also went out of my way to make a detailed stat topic and unofficial tourney to show how it affects the cast.

So, I entirely understand if you don't want to allow GFs and all things associated with them to the FF8 cast based on initial compatibility, but I'm pointing out that there -is- a way with some gameplay backing.

I definitely prefer to allow skills based on gameplay claims than plotclaims. I've been allowing a lot of skills based more on affinity (GS, LoL, FF8, S2-5, Dis, CC) and scaled starting skills (SaGaF, DDS, FF12, FF8) and situational availability (VP1, FF7/6, FFX, SH2) than plotclaims. (By 'situational availability', I mean that a certain character is required for getting a certain skill/equip, such as the VP1 hometown weapons or the SH2 crests that can only be gotten on certain character sidequests.)

Note that some of these things are already allowed by a lot of people. Notably, Golden Sun characters get Djinni based on their innate affinity, even though it's entirely possible for them to equip -any- Djinni. SaGaF characters have basically nothing if don't allow them skills based on their starting equips. DDS characters get skills based on their starting abilities, which luckily correspond to their elemental affinities. Many allow Disgaea PCs to use weapon skills based on their innate affinities/starting equips. VP1 characters all get their hometown weapons that require a certain Einherjar to be present to obtain, even if nearly anyone can equip it. FFX characters have claim to their starting area of the sphere grid even though technically everyone can learn everything once unlocking spheres become available. WAo characters get handed their respective Guardian summons based on plot claims. And I even think there's a decent number of people who allow Maxim and Selan their respective storeboughts in L2 based on their forms from L1.

So the idea of allowing plotclaims and affinity-based storeboughts is already something that's part of the DL 'system', I just took the idea and expanded my guidelines to include things I felt would be objectively representative of a character and would better reflect the in-game performance.

Out of curiosity, though, if someone adopts this method of handing out 'easily obtainable' damage magic to whole casts, does this include LoD?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I don't appreciate being called a puppy when I'm being pretty open-minded about this criticism though. Especially after all the work I have been putting into this view -and- posting for review. I know I joke about how I 'like handing out skillsets', but that's because I'm not unaware that my view is uncommon/unique. But my reasons are rooted in similar desires as yours - to see DL characters reflect their in-game performance and to be fair/consistent when interpreting casts.

I actually wasn't even referring to you for the puppy comment (although if you want to take the mantle, be my guest).

Now, for the part that actually matters: it's exactly the issue of in-game performance reflection that gets me with the skillset handing you do. When you hand a materia-like skillset to a PC or other, there's no real appreciable reflection of the -character's- performance in the DL by a low-end plot claim. Aeris doesn't use Enemy Skill any appreciably better than, say, Cait Sith or Yuffie, and any FF7 PC with E. Skill would be a Heavy champ-level contender in the DL at the very worst. You don't really have an objective reason to put, say, Leviathan on Yuffie over any other character (for a slightly stronger plot claim). You don't really have a reason to equip Restore on Cloud over another PC from a purely statistics standpoint when you can swap materia from PCs who are and aren't in the current party at any time (otherwise, there would be a minor in-game edge - maybe). No matter what the arrangement you do with FF7 or 8 PCs, or other high-customization, low-uniqueness cast, what you are reflecting isn't the character, or his strengths, or his weakness. What you will reflect is the strength of the customizable skillset given to you in the game rather than the character regardless. Trying to extract character uniqueness by complete skillset distribution is a lost cause - or, in practice, ends up not being the point of this exercise. However, wanting to see a skillset's strength reflected is fine!

Due to that, I'm suggesting you to actually save yourself some work and some grief and consider taking a broader approach - instead of selectively picking plot claims off difficult, often esoteric criteria that tend to reward circumstances even more than starting equipment does - and worse, in a way that has absolutely no reflection or basis in actual gameplay - why not allow all the cast storebought materia, for instance, and then let their stats say where they are better? This is generous, more reflective of the entire cast's in-game performance and actually fair to them, and lets them show off those skillsets that were waiting to flex their muscles.

It's not very unique, no, but you're not actually making a cast more unique by simply playing pick-a-claim either, and in casts where uniqueness is -not- a focus, you really can only go so far. Furthermore, forging false uniqueness creates new problems instead of solving the ones that were there before. I like your sentiment, Djinn, but I'm not sure if your approach -helps- solve the issues that you have. And, sadly, I feel that you sorta can't eat your cake and have it in this case - i.e. create an approach that is fair, reflective of in-game and really unique, because that's just not how some of those games function, and you're going to just stray away further from what you want in this case by forcing it in. Much like you can't, say, make Tin Man the fastest character in the game, or how you can't give Slow Down to Jude either in-game or in the DL, because that's not what the designers had in mind for them, you can't make FF7 or 8 PCs as unique as DQ8 PCs are in the way DQ8 PCs are, for instance - because that was not their focus when designing the game. There's only so much interps can do.

Tangentially, LoD doesn't really benefit much at all - damage item tosses are more an in-game thing. Psych Bomb X spamming would help, say, Meru's consistent magical damage, but it'd hurt her big damage bursts relatively due to higher averages (Miranda/Meru both would bring that up with that item's spammery), and the other items are at best comparable to physicals.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I actually wasn't even referring to you for the puppy comment (although if you want to take the mantle, be my guest).

>.>

Now, for the part that actually matters: it's exactly the issue of in-game performance reflection that gets me with the skillset handing you do.
...
You don't really have a reason to equip Restore on Cloud over another PC from a purely statistics standpoint when you can swap materia from PCs who are and aren't in the current party at any time (otherwise, there would be a minor in-game edge - maybe).
...
Trying to extract character uniqueness by complete skillset distribution is a lost cause - or, in practice, ends up not being the point of this exercise. However, wanting to see a skillset's strength reflected is fine!
...
instead of selectively picking plot claims off difficult, often esoteric criteria that tend to reward circumstances even more than starting equipment does

This pretty much sums up where our differences in this lie. You seem to think that starting equips are so much more unique than my criteria. Honestly, I look at most of the starting equips that we allow in the DL and it's easy to notice that most of them completely generic items/skills handed out to lategame PCs simply because it makes sense for lategame PCs to come with -something-. They often aren't better at using them and it rarely reflects anything about the character itself, so I apart from their 'proximity' to it, there's not that much unique about them. Sure, there are cases where it -is- something tied the character, but in the case of materia, it's really not a big indication of what the character's 'good' at and feels pretty arbitrary. (Well, Yuffie with Throw makes sense at least.)

I feel like my criteria are as good an indication of an ability/equip being 'theirs' as starting equips are. And in the cases of things like elemental affinity and situational availability, there's gameplay backing to complement the 'esoteric' plotclaims.

I know it's generous and sometimes it won't always work, but I never associated Cait Sith with the Transform materia before coming to the DL, but now I'm perfectly okay with seeing that as something that's indicative of his 'uniqueness'. Similarly, I feel materia based on decent plotclaims like Yuffie with Leviathan are pretty indicative of their 'uniqueness' now. Really, you're drawing the line of what constitutes 'uniqueness' pretty arbitrarily yourself by saying 'yes to initial equips, no to elemental affinity'. Sure, it's how the DL has done it for a long time, but that doesn't mean it's the only valid way.

Due to that, I'm suggesting you to actually save yourself some work and some grief and consider taking a broader approach - why not allow all the cast storebought materia, for instance, and then let their stats say where they are better? This is generous, more reflective of the entire cast's in-game performance and actually fair to them, and lets them show off those skillsets that were waiting to flex their muscles.

It's not very unique, no, but you're not actually making a cast more unique by simply playing pick-a-claim either, and in casts where uniqueness is -not- a focus, you really can only go so far. Furthermore, forging false uniqueness creates new problems instead of solving the ones that were there before. I like your sentiment, Djinn, but I'm not sure if your approach -helps- solve the issues that you have. And, sadly, I feel that you sorta can't eat your cake and have it in this case - i.e. create an approach that is fair, reflective of in-game and really unique, because that's just not how some of those games function, and you're going to just stray away further from what you want in this case by forcing it in. There's only so much interps can do.

I have, of course, considered this option too. I -do- like the idea of making casts more like they are in-game, but I feel I have to balance that with the much stronger desire to see PCs have some measure of uniqueness. I don't want to see all high-customization casts become clones. This is another reason why I am against universal storebought damage magic. So instead I follow my own guidelines to allow a slightly larger number of non-unique abilities to reflect -more- of in-game performance without completely straying from the idea of reflecting a character's individual prowess. You can easily argue that Diablos' skillset is no more related to Squall than Quistis, but I personally find his innate compatibility with it to be unique enough to reflect 'Squall'. Similarly, I would argue that the Bolt materia is no more indicative of what makes Cloud 'Cloud' than Vincent 'Vincent', but I find the fact that he starts with one to be unique enough to allow it to him.

Anyway, more on-subject, I wouldn't have a problem with people interpreting casts this way if they so choose... after all, there are people who do the opposite and disallow things like Defend abilities or Starting Equips or Status Blockers. There's tons of interps. I'm personally a little annoyed that this idea is being presented as if everybody is supposed to start viewing things this way, to the point that the ones promoting the idea are requesting that the stat topic-makers update their stat topics. I'm all for more information in the stat topics to reflect more views, but it upset me that Snow basically said 'If you want to have a new view, make your own 80+ stat topics', but for this view, it's the stat topic-makers that are supposed to jump on command.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Snow basically said 'If you want to have a new view, make your own 80+ stat topics', but for this view, it's the stat topic-makers that are supposed to jump on command.

It hardly even goes anywhere as far as that. In theory, to properly implement that view with all the ramifications and average changes this provides, you'd pretty much end up having to basically build up your databases from scratch to actually be able to properly vote that way instead of handwaving (handwaving -does- happen, it's hardly an issue in and out of itself in smaller doses. However, this is a sort of interp that basically seeps through the majority of the games in the DL. It starts getting difficult to even have enough of an intuitive handle on it to even justify), yes. In practice, though, it's more likely that you'll just end up getting yourself mixed up on your own ruleset and more or less lose sight of what you were trying to accomplish with the line of thought you began.

And there's one tangent that bothers me within the plot boundaries you began setting. The same way you're arguing for creating arbitrary uniqueness lines for characters, you argued to -remove- uniqueness lines with inarguable gameplay backing and even strong plot backup – glaringly, the P3-4 main cases, where you tried to find a way to disallow him the vast majority of his persona -and- his unique ability to actually have multiple personas and swap them mid-battle - both of which not only are unique to him gameplay-wise, but are unique to the mains plot-wise and get sufficient hype that way. The plot hype, I honestly could care less about personally, but given how you -do- care about it, yet you went out of your way to twist it into yanking away an ironclad, unique gameplay distinction that makes the character stand out as a PC - one that has an actually sensible plot claim to boot, I have to ask. -Where- do you set your boundaries? -How well- do you keep track of them? I see a lot of your efforts, and some of them (particularly FF8) are fairly thorough. However, on average, it just looks like you're biting more than you can chew and trampling yourself over and having to backpedal constantly over your own interpretation lines even when you have the data. It somewhat reminds me of back when you were arguing giving squads to Soul Nomad PCs. 

I've been noticing hiccups, inconsistencies and holes throughout the way you try to adapt all your tenets - and this is a sign that the very interps you set, at a minimum, overwhelm you. When that happens to a person, at best, this means he/she won't ever really be able to defend those views. At this point, I'm just noticing that you haven't accomplished much other than confusing yourself, and I'm not even sure what kind of reflection are you trying to accomplish. It isn't really of the characters themselves. Due to how many hoops those claims have to go through, it ends up not really being a reflection of the game either. The only thing it reflects is that you want to justify your leniency in some way, which honestly isn't -even necessary-, if you want to give people stuff, just give people stuff - it's even far easier to handwave if you just hand them over indiscriminately and causes much less migraines and interp errors. If you manage to accomplish nothing of what you wanted originally with this and there was no need for it to begin with, then why go through this excruciating labor? This is just some food for thought. Sometimes, the justification can be far worse than the deed itself.

And I honestly don't even feel much in the way of the particular interp that was supposed to be the topic's point. I do like it in a vacuum, but may end up too lazy to think about it, and there are a few things in it I dislike to boot - like the bizarre DL balance shift it clasps into Suikoden games. I'm not even arguing for it. I'm just bluntly pointing out that you made a system basically tailormade to outsmart yourself with in practice. 

[DjinnAndTonic]

It hardly even goes anywhere as far as that. In theory, to properly implement that view with all the ramifications and average changes this provides, you'd pretty much end up having to basically build up your databases from scratch to actually be able to properly vote that way instead of handwaving (handwaving -does- happen, it's hardly an issue in and out of itself in smaller doses. However, this is a sort of interp that basically seeps through the majority of the games in the DL. It starts getting difficult to even have enough of an intuitive handle on it to even justify), yes. In practice, though, it's more likely that you'll just end up getting yourself mixed up on your own ruleset and more or less lose sight of what you were trying to accomplish with the line of thought you began.

Right. I'll just stop thinking for myself and go with everyone else cause it's easier. That really doesn't sit well with me. I appreciate (?) that you want to save me some work, but I like having the opportunity to present another interp that's more in-line with what I would allow.

And there's one tangent that bothers me within the plot boundaries you began setting. The same way you're arguing for creating arbitrary uniqueness lines for characters, you argued to -remove- uniqueness lines with inarguable gameplay backing and even strong plot backup – glaringly, the P3-4 main cases.

Note that this is the only case of this. Note that I don't follow this anymore and at the time I was just being contrary because I didn't like how overpowered Souji and Minato were. I'll try never to make a mistake again.

I have to ask. -Where- do you set your boundaries? -How well- do you keep track of them? I see a lot of your efforts, and some of them (particularly FF8) are fairly thorough. However, on average, it just looks like you're biting more than you can chew and trampling yourself over and having to backpedal constantly over your own interpretation lines even when you have the data. It somewhat reminds me of back when you were arguing giving squads to Soul Nomad PCs. 

I -am- biting off quite a lot. It happens. You're pretty much repeating yourself over and over. I don't really see how this connects to the Soul Nomad thing. If I have to explain that again, I will. Soul Nomad units are pretty limited in what they can do. However, it's a squad game. The squads move as a single entity, attack as a single entity, and gains boosts as a single entity. The Leader is the determining factor of the squad's abilities in every way, with the other units acting solely as stat-boosting entities that also give "MP" to the Leader's skills if they are of a certain type as well... they aren't that different from equipment in this sense. I don't why it's so hard to understand how I could have -possibly- come to such a conclusion. But... before I made the stat topic, I made the choice to discuss on the boards first. The idea was deemed unpopular and frankly I wanted to contribute something that would be useful to the majority of the DL with that stat topic, so I took the suggestions of the posters.

I've been noticing hiccups, inconsistencies and holes throughout the way you try to adapt all your tenets - and this is a sign that the very interps you set, at a minimum, overwhelm you. When that happens to a person, at best, this means he/she won't ever really be able to defend those views. At this point, I'm just noticing that you haven't accomplished much other than confusing yourself, and I'm not even sure what kind of reflection are you trying to accomplish. It isn't really of the characters themselves. Due to how many hoops those claims have to go through, it ends up not really being a reflection of the game either. The only thing it reflects is that you want to justify your leniency in some way, which honestly isn't -even necessary-, if you want to give people stuff, just give people stuff - it's even far easier to handwave if you just hand them over indiscriminately and causes much less migraines and interp errors. If you manage to accomplish nothing of what you wanted originally with this and there was no need for it to begin with, then why go through this excruciating labor? This is just some food for thought. Sometimes, the justification can be far worse than the deed itself.

It's a work-in-progress to be sure, but I'm interpreting things consistently with this methodology. It's a lot of work simply because it's -new- work. The original stat topics were/are a lot of work, too, but they had the benefit of a lot of people working on different ones.

Randomly handing out stuff doesn't accomplish anything of what I wanted, which is to solve the balancing act between 'reflecting in-game performance' and 'reflecting a character's uniqueness'... Having the justification means that what I'm working on might actually be useful to someone else too if they're more lenient with plotclaims than the majority. If I don't have the justification, then you're right, there's no sense in doing any work. I'll just be like OK. Vote based on cuteness.

And I honestly don't even feel much in the way of the particular interp that was supposed to be the topic's point. I do like it in a vacuum, but may end up too lazy to think about it, and there are a few things in it I dislike to boot - like the bizarre DL balance shift it clasps into Suikoden games. I'm not even arguing for it. I'm just bluntly pointing out that you made a system basically tailormade to outsmart yourself with in practice. 

*shrugs* Nobody cares to discuss new views anymore because it's too much work, because nobody's interested unless the work is done for them. . I'm actually taking the time to -do- some of the work and try to discuss alternate ideas, but now I'm just told to stop because I'm not doing -enough- or because it's easier to just not care and give things out randomly... How does this sit well with -any- of you?

[Luther Lansfeld]

About FF8, because I am far too lazy to read the rest at 6 am when I am supposed to be reading a paper for school:

Well, the problem doesn't end at giving the FF8 chars GFs. In fact, I feel like the system I devised was okay (give them all low-level GFs based on starting order, the highest being Pandemona) but I quickly realized that, no, just giving them GFs just lowers the relative damage of their super-attacks. The bigger issue to me, besides distributing GFs based on an affinity stat that anyone would wanted to vote based on would have to FAQ because no one actually knows it, is that even if I allowed GFs, I would have much bigger problem allowing magic because it's non-unique AND kind of a pain in the ass to get AND is completely dependent on a level of Junction twinking that only crazy people do.

I am actually one of FF8's biggest fans in the DL (despite not really loving it) but it's really hard for me to conjure a way that I think is representative of the cast because there isn't one. Allowing magic in FF6, FF7, FF8 just makes them mostly dependent on one stat. (Which is indicative on in-game, which incidentally is one of the reasons I dislike FF6 and FF7...)

I am actually fine with giving CC characters things within their own elements even if it doesn't have gameplay backing (as pointed out by others) because at least it sets a firm line that all players can see to what is allowed and why it is allowed. GS sounds similar, not that I've played that. WA5 sounds like a clusterfuck, haven't played that either.

I think Snow is being closed-minded, I disagree with things being said in the topic but I appreciate the deviation from status quo. That is all I have to say on that side of the debate.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm not going to get into the Djinn interp further - just going to agree to disagree there. I am probably being closed-minded, as Ciato says, but eh.

But I've been actually mulling the storebought magic system over a bit overnight and the more I think about it, the less I like it. The posterboy of my issues with this system is primarily the Suikoden series – it creates a mostly single-stat dependence that, in at least Suikoden 2 and 5, -didn't even exist in practice-. In S1, I guess that everybody wanted to be a mage due to how badly the balance failed, but it nags me that just about every character would see an improvement over what they have now and many of them don't even deserve it because they were awful with magic to begin with (some of them getting bigger relative improvements than a few dedicated mages. I suspect Krin could end up as about as good a mage dueller as S1 Luc in spite of the huge Magic split because one gets access to Lightning Rune and the other doesn't, even though, even with the locked rune limitation, Luc is a better mage in-game, for instance). Then, you get cases like Mizuki, who becomes a primarily attack mage with a physical backup for heal-locking when what really made her great in-game was the fact she could be the second-best physical fighter, with potential free offense that ousted even most high-level magic (I guess she -does- make a competent enough mage, 120 Magic at endgame, but was that an optimal setup for her? It is in the DL now with this). And the vast majority of the entire Suikoden series but maybe 3 and a few people in 5 wants that Lightning Rune.

Cases like FF6 are even fairly good on that balance, because the people with shitty magic don't benefit from it besides getting an alternate damage type, but it starts getting odd with a whole series, say, turning into primarily a bunch of attack mages and ousting the other side of the offense spectrum almost entirely (it's possible even the likes of Valeria would want to be a mage rather than a fighter - and that wasn't true to S2, for instance. S1, Valeria just didn't have a choice, and she'd likely be devalued by this in a DL sense). It ends up meaning that, to me, the stat uniqueness isn't enough to make up for the other splits this creates. Of course, the DL already creates splits on the other way (S2 Rina makes a great physical fighter in-game, notably better than what she does as a mage! Yet, she's a mage in the DL. Miakis is S5's best straight physical fighter in-game! Turns into an unimpressive healer/fighter mezzo in the DL), but the swap in dynamics brought by this seems to create a split that's even bigger, and highlights what I really wished to do at times: simply giving the characters full access to their wealth of twinking options and working from there. But I've yet to find a way to -do- this that satisfies me, because I like uniqueness more than the twinking potential – which is maybe what Djinn is trying to strike here. But I honestly don't see striking that balance to a point I'm satisfied with as possible within the very idea of the duelling conundrum. Maybe I'm just too harsh on that.

[Yoshiken]

And Snow's last point there is why I'm going to be determining whether or not to allow universal magic on a game-by-game basis. In FF7, it makes characters more like their in-game forms! In, say, a Suikoden, it makes everyone rely on magic. In some games, magic is just too powerful to be universal, and I won't be allowing those.

As it goes, I'm on the fence about FF8 GFs, since the claims are still really weak, and FF6 magic... I'll probably be allowing the bare minimum there. S4, no storebought runes. Lightning Rune is too good to be universal.

[Cmdr_King]

Sidenote: in the case of Golden Sun, the working theory wasn't so much "djinn of their element, it is easy and sensible and makes them not suck".  Due to the way GS handles skills and classing, the initial levels in an element for each character combined with piling all their own element Djinn on them leads to each character getting a unique class with... one or two unique skills, is my memory?  But the unique class thing was what stuck with people.  It's possible there's other unique class/skill combos within the system (I don't know really, but it seems likely), but since only a handful of people played the game (and none of them really care about it), the whole "thoroughly explore alternative setups" movement never touched on them.