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Author Topic: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL  (Read 12120 times)

Meeplelard

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2009, 08:28:30 PM »
Sidenote: in the case of Golden Sun, the working theory wasn't so much "djinn of their element, it is easy and sensible and makes them not suck".  Due to the way GS handles skills and classing, the initial levels in an element for each character combined with piling all their own element Djinn on them leads to each character getting a unique class with... one or two unique skills, is my memory?  But the unique class thing was what stuck with people.  It's possible there's other unique class/skill combos within the system (I don't know really, but it seems likely), but since only a handful of people played the game (and none of them really care about it), the whole "thoroughly explore alternative setups" movement never touched on them.

Yeah, basically.  All classes in the game are shared by 2 PCs at least, IIRC (typically Isaac and Garet share classes, Mia and Ivan share classes), but if you give all Mediums of a single element to that respective character, it gives them a unique class.  Golden Sun 2 was the same way, just with double the Djinns, which means there's an argument over who gets what for characters like Felix vs. Isaac (note that even in GS2, some unique classes exist.  Both Fire and Water Adepts get different classes, IIRC, since they basically swapped roles in GS2, so your Water Adept was the Tank Fighter and your Fire Adept was the Mage, where as Garet and Mia were the other way around), though, there's an easy tie breaker I applied in my stat topic:

GS2 characters get all Djinn before the GS1 cast arrives.  GS1 cast gets all the mediums they come with; technically a transfer data thing, but its more a balance purpose thing, and then gets the next 4 mediums (one for each element) that not only appear til after the GS1 cast appears, but requires map abilities that the GS1 cast brings along with them, so yeah.  Anything after is kind of illegal, but I think they have enough Djinn to access their new ultimate classes, so its just "minor stat boosts" here, and one less unleash.


FF8...is probably the single worst game to give a character one thing but not others.  True, WA5 characters suffer by Carol getting Luck, for example...but that's really no different than Carol just getting an extra awesome accessory; she gets significant stat boosts to 2 stats, and that's it stat wise, and some indirect abilities that help her independent dueling style, while doing little to the cast as a whole (don't think her damage is helped TOO much.  Life Drain may do more, but its not as big a jump as, say, Greg's Hi Crush.)
FF8?  Give Squall GFs only and...oh shit, now his stats sky rocket to hell, and he becomes a OHKO machine with like 3x the durability of everyone else ON HP ALONE.
FF8 played under the assumption that everyone would have at least one GF.  The game hands you two before your first mission, and right before you get your first 3 man party, you get your 3rd GF; from here on in, you're never caught in a scenario where you have PCs without junctions, one exception is the final battle due to the nature of how its structured.

Now, look at FF7.  Cloud getting Lightning/Ice Materia means...nothing other than his damage will never drop below a certain point, and now he can do stuff to people like Kimhari (limits accepted).  Red XIII's Fire is just an extra damage type for him to get, one which hurts his main damage too I should note.  Yuffie's...is almost completely pointless, and Cait Sith gains a status.  It does little to effect the other 5 PCs, just arbitrary advantages that help their dueling style to varying degrees (Cait SIth's is a huge boon, for example, Yuffie's not so much.)

----

Now, FF6plot claims that are remotely reasonable.  I'm not suggesting people allow these, just tossing them out since they were brought up.  Note some of these are incredible stretches, and I am not trying to make any reasonable claim about them.

Terra:
Ramuh (rescued her, watched over her before your team joined, etc.)
Tritoch (The entire early game nonsense)
Maduin (most obvious one)
Fenrir (dropped by Phunbaba, thus related to the Mobliz stuff)
Odin/Raiden (TERRA GETS A UNIQUE LINE OF DIALOG IN THIS DUNGEON IF SHE READS THE QUEEN'S DIARY!!!)

And based off Dissidia, you could argue Phoenix, cause her Crystal is a Red Magicite which has a big bird that resembles a phoenix on it!!!1 Interestingly, Phoenix is one of the Magicite that is most like Terra's current natural magic set, meaning she gains so very little from it, so really, this point is almost completely useless (idly, Terra does naturally learn all spells from Ifrit and Ragnarok!  no, don't know why I brought this up...)

Locke:
Phoenix (self explanatory)
Ragnarok (Required to get the darn thing)

Celes:
Palidoor (on Solitary Island; this is the closest we'll get to a "place of residence" for Celes, unless you count the factory, and by that logic, Terra should have access to all Espers there too...)

Mog:
Ramuh (is the one who taught him how to talk, and told him to join the party, apparently.)
Terrato (Terrato belongs to Umaro, who can't use it, so clearly, Mog deserves the damn thing.)

Cyan:
Alexander (Found in Doma, but only after his Dream sequence...you can actually see the Magicite in the Throne Room after Wrexsoul is defeated oddly; probably has to do with some trigger nonsense or it was the game's way of going "HINT: CHECK THE THRONE ROOM AFTER THIS SCENE!")

Relm:
Starlet (Chardanook nonsense)

Setzer:
Bahamut (HUGE STRETCH.  Doom Gaze is fought on the Airship only.  Airship = Setzer, thereby, Setzer gains this!)

Shadow:
Gilgamesh (FF6a only; he's fought in the Colosseum, thus belongs to Shadow!!1!!)

Like I said, a lot of these are stretches and not really reasonable at all, just tossing them out there.
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2009, 12:39:13 AM »
On the topic at hand, what Snow said was exactly what I was thinking and was too lazy to try and coherently put into words.  For more detail, look at Suikoden games.  Those rune slots that magic runes go in?  Physical fighters can use those SAME RUNE SLOTS to boost their physicals.  If you just allow storebought magic, then only the mages get the benefit of those slots, while fighters just get some magic that doesn't suit them well.  Hell, they may even end up mages in the end because their magic may beat out an untwinked physical.  That's not the only example of this but it is perhaps the biggest and most relevant one.

I mean, I kinda like the idea in theory as well, but in practice it just shifts things way too far to the other end.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2009, 12:41:10 AM »
To be fair, usually the good physical runes aren't storebought (or cost too much to reasonably give to a large number of people) so that's a pretty traditional screwing in the DL right there.

I agree that I don't really like the rule's effect on Suikoden. And given just how many Suikodeners there are (compared to relatively few CC mages and Relms) that's a significant strike against.

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2009, 12:50:18 AM »
I've actually been toying today with the idea of allowing the primary fighters typical physical twinking runes that are reasonably obtainable in a decent amount of numbers with some effort and giving the dedicated mages spellcasting runes (in the case of S2, I'd allow Double-Beats, since they come from a really common earlygame enemy. Dunno if I'd allow Fury Runes, although they're storebought as a rarity in Matilda, but if I allowed Mother Earths and Cyclones, which are storebought in Gregminster the same way, I'd allow those). What I dislike here is, obviously, the typical question when every thing in this spectrum arises: why am I arbitrarily gunning them away from the other side other than what I deem appropriate as a mage setup or a fighter setup? Which goes back to the same vicious circle.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2009, 12:54:36 AM »
I really don't think even Double-Beats are remotely comparable with, say, a Fire Rune. It is a legit advantage of mages over fighters that the latter is about 100x easier to get.

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2009, 01:07:35 AM »
That's -yet- another strike against the idea, yes. Not to mention that Double-Beats don't even beat Fire Rune L4s at C affinity, but that's to be expected given the sharp split towards magic present in the first two Suikos. Even with physical twinking allowed, the physical fighters would largely want to be mages instead. Except in Suikoden 5 maybe.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 01:22:05 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Clear Tranquil

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2009, 11:33:26 AM »
Thanks Snow~

That's just it Djinn. That's the point. Aeris' claim to that material is just as serious/substantial as any one of those claims that you use for anyone else and that I believe is one of the things that Snow was trying to point out to you.

Aeris - It's in her tank, you're fighting the boss to rescue/take her to safety, you're in the Shinra building to rescue/rerecruit her, she has a high magic stat to go with it
Relm - She's painting the picture/she's in front of the picture, you're in that dude's house to rerecruit her

Counter points? People have already done it for Aeris (but you know what I'd still allow it with all the stuff other you allow because Aeris has much right to use them as the rest of them do "it's significantly related to X character" etc so i.e what you believe in or none) Relm? She isn't even in that dude's house if you don't wait for Shadow (and really is every newb going to have the foresight to know what will happen to Shadow if you don't wait?) - and it's not just Relm. It could be anyone. NEB touched on Locke, etc. Snow pretty much covered everything I was trying to say.

Disclaimer - Please do not take this post personally/to heart. I'm just trying to explain where people are coming from~
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 12:58:42 PM by Clear Tranquil »
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2009, 01:00:56 PM »
Well, the only reason to go to Owzer's house is to recruit Relm, so it's -her- sidequest. Rescuing Aeris is just part of the plot. It's non-optional.

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2009, 01:27:54 PM »
Well, the only reason to go to Owzer's house is to recruit Relm, so it's -her- sidequest. Rescuing Aeris is just part of the plot. It's non-optional.

I sorta can't see how the fact that Aeris' rescue being obligatory makes the plot claim weaker, which you seem to be implying. If nothing else, being non-optional tends to give plot claims a bit more clout rather than the opposite.
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Yoshiken

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2009, 01:48:40 PM »
No, I'm with Djinn on this one. You only get that for Relm - if you don't want Relm in your party, you don't get that Esper, simple as that. As for Aeris, even if you don't intend to use her, you have to go through that area.
Put simply, Relm's is optional and solely for Relm, while Aeris' is plot-induced and so not solely about Aeris.

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2009, 02:13:00 PM »
Like I said it's not just Relm, it's any character. One half could argue all day on why X character shouldn't be allowed X while the other vehemently defends their reasons until the end of time. I could continue to nitpick at why Aerith's reason shouldn't be less than Relm's or vice verca but that's not the point. You cannot justify this.

I am willing to swing with the masses on this and will ditch Enemy Skills in favour of storebought magics though. However if that falls through I am willing to fall back on Enemy Skills for Cloud, Red and Aerith regardless if it makes sense or not. It makes sense to me just as any much as character allowed whatever on that list >_> (and no offence Djinn it was the Enemy Skills materia being in Aerith's tank that made me think of your kind of stuff <_<)

Well I've said my piece (and said my piece again <_<) and I'm not going to say anymore on it!~
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 02:46:14 PM by Clear Tranquil »
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2009, 03:14:02 PM »
It's not just Relm, no, but Relm is a good example of the difference. One is a character-specific quest, the other is part of the plot. If it's part of the plot, I see it needing more of a link to the character than if it's part of a specific quest, which Enemy Skill doesn't have.
I'm still mostly undecided on plotclaims, but I'm leaning to a case-by-case basis for allowing shopbought spells. At the moment, it's yes to FF7, no to S4, and... I'll consider the others when the next come up. >.>

Meeplelard

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2009, 04:48:41 PM »
The plot claim with Relm is basically this...

Relm was taken to Owzer's House cause Owzer found Starlet and he wanted a painting of it specifically cause he felt she deserved a work of art.  Relm was the only artist he found that could draw her well enough to do her justice, and so she did; Chardanook possesses the painting of Starlet and yeah; its kind of vague as to why Relm doesn't help out in fighting Chardanook, unless we're just to assume that Relm painting is the only thing that can allow Chadarnook to reveal his true colors from time to time, rather than hide in the painting.

He does hand your team Starlet, though, your team getting Starlet is the exact trigger than recruits Relm as well (as soon as you take it, Relm says "I have to go, but I'll return!")

Basically, you can't get Relm w/out getting Starlet.  Its flat out impossible.  And the two are linked in plot for their recruitment other than "Happen to be in the same arc."  Relm's scenario was directly caused by Owser finding Starlet to begin with, and that's why she was there.

That's a stronger plot claim than "Happens to be in the same tank as another PC" if you ask me.  It being optional has little to do with anything...actually, I think that makes the claim stronger in THIS case, cause it means you can't get one without the other, so if you want Relm to appear in the game's ending, you need Starlet in your inventory.
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2009, 05:57:44 PM »
I am willing to swing with the masses on this and will ditch Enemy Skills in favour of storebought magics though. However if that falls through I am willing to fall back on Enemy Skills for Cloud, Red and Aerith regardless if it makes sense or not. It makes sense to me just as any much as character allowed whatever on that list >_> (and no offence Djinn it was the Enemy Skills materia being in Aerith's tank that made me think of your kind of stuff <_<)

So in other words, you are going to adopt a view that benefits a character you like, regardless of how much sense it makes?

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2009, 07:20:18 PM »
Exactly. These things cannot be justified~

Relm is one of my favourite characters too =-)

Edit: I can try to justify it "character X gets X because of" and because if I do allow the character it I believe the reasoning, in this case people came up for reasoning both for allowing and disallowing Aerith the materia. The entire point is that a bunch of reasons can be brought up for and against every character when it comes to "plot claims"/we. What I was and am trying to say is that I believe those reasons are as valid as those for the other characters, Relm, Locke, FF8 PCs with GFs, what have you. Like I already said I don't have a problem with the way Djinn votes or his ideas - it makes sense and it makes the character more interesting/unique as a dueller for all the characters he's ever mentioned in the past, the present and even to come although of course nothing's set in stone. I believe this applies as much to Aerith too *shrugs* but at the end of the day what does that come down to? It makes the character more interesting/unique as a dueller? Of course someone who likes the character is also going to like this (and even if they don't *and* like the idea of a dueller being more interesting they may come to) I see no point in denying this >.>
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 08:08:31 PM by Clear Tranquil »
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Meeplelard

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2009, 07:27:15 PM »
and yet, I'm able to take a rational stance on my fan favorites <_< >_>
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2009, 07:36:40 PM »
I think to CT, her stance is rational and logical as well. 'Correct' is something unique for every individual, right? So if CT feels it is sensible to grant those three E. Skill and remarks she doesn't care if it makes sense to anyone else, I think it'd be unfair to say that that is 'wrong'.

As well, I have difficulty seeing you have any rational stance, Meeplelogic.

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2009, 07:56:59 PM »
Thank you Bard~

Edited my post and explained that more. Or tried too >_>
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2009, 08:15:53 PM »
My own thoughts on this:


Games affected by what Djinn's talking about:

CC
FF1 (Arguble for other reasons, bit of a headache and this one I'm putting to the side for the moment)
FF6
FF7
FF8 (Has other legality problems even if you see refined spells as legal)
G1 (Kind of)
Pokemon- Don't know well enough to comment.
Suikoden 1-5
Saga Frontier
SO3 (I think)
VP1

I am ignoring FF1/8 for this. SO3 I can't vote on.

Does it increase uniqueness? Does it match in game? Does it make consistent sense? Is it easy to vote on and makes logical sense with the rest of the rules?


CC- Fighters get relatively worse, mages get relatively better. Limited grid does hurt some here. I tried to vote on this a while, and was not impressed. It doesn't reward good magic, it rewards being the right DL element. Blah. CC is not really a DL friendly game regardless, no elemental/status blocking being legal and severe resource issues do that.

FF1- Makes Red Wizard better, makes Knight/Ninja a little worse (Ninja has a fair claim to Fast anyway, BW doesn't need it)? It's pretty minor either way.
FF6- Relm better, Sabin worse. I'm sure I'm forgetting somet hings, but I don't think the changes are massive besides for Relm. FF6 translates fairly well on the whole DL wise, since equips/skillsets come through more than anything else.
FF7- Aeris gets better, a few PC's get worse (Cloud/Yuffie/Cid/Red take a major damage hit relatively).
G1- Justin gets a little better, the rest get a little more damage in a three turn average.
Suikoden 1-5- A mess due to the runes work.
Lufia 2- Lexis gets better, Maxim gets a little better, Artea/Dekar get a little worse. Not major changes overall.
Saga Frontier- No gifts are really DL legal, so doesn't matter. Humans is not unique.
VP1- Doesn't matter to me, minor changes.


This is a pretty minor changes.  I don't think doing this will increase either uniqueness or  suddenly 'unscrew' characters. It does however create headaches- what about suikoden characters who have high scores in water magic, do they just get BoI spam?!?!

I don't think you can accurately reflect the changes that would need to be made for this to make sense without allowing a freer hand with storebought/easily gettable magic, and all that does is overpower several casts without solving the problem or sticking to rules/any feeling of uniqueness.  Any idea that creates a massive headache for one seventh of the DL (Roughly how much Suikoden we have ranked) is blah to start with.

Yeah, I definitely don't like this particular idea.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 08:28:25 PM by superaielman »
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2009, 11:50:42 PM »
CC- Fighters get relatively worse, mages get relatively better. Limited grid does hurt some here. I tried to vote on this a while, and was not impressed. It doesn't reward good magic, it rewards being the right DL element. Blah. CC is not really a DL friendly game regardless, no elemental/status blocking being legal and severe resource issues do that.

You mean...it rewards being the right DL element because of elemental resistances the other fighters have? Magic spells are evenly spaced damage wise except for Black, and the status side effects...well, the best status side is borderline turn 4 (And that's assuming you don't throw it out). And...well, see the change that Riddel gets. That's definetely rewarding a good magic score, given that her relative DL damage over doubles.
...into the nightfall.

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2009, 11:57:28 PM »
Red got a 100% confusion and black got 50/50 ID. There's also the Negates.
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2009, 12:06:14 AM »
Hmm, I may have underrated the effect of CC confuse in the DL, but at the same time, it's about the worst confusion effect you are going to see. Black's ID I'd throw out for being a pure status spell (And I could certainly see ignoring the status side effects of the elements). The Negates similarly are not damage spells, and would get tossed. So basically the issues are negated by just looking at damage purely.
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2009, 12:49:08 AM »
My own thoughts on this:


Games affected by what Djinn's talking about:

Yeah, I definitely don't like this particular idea.

I don't see how what you're talking about has to do with my views at all? Are you talking about how I allow storebought magic only to the correct affinity? It's pretty inconsistent.

Exactly. These things cannot be justified~

I can try to justify it "character X gets X because of" and because if I do allow the character it I believe the reasoning, in this case people came up for reasoning both for allowing and disallowing Aerith the materia. The entire point is that a bunch of reasons can be brought up for and against every character when it comes to "plot claims"/we. What I was and am trying to say is that I believe those reasons are as valid as those for the other characters, Relm, Locke, FF8 PCs with GFs, what have you. Like I already said I don't have a problem with the way Djinn votes or his ideas - it makes sense and it makes the character more interesting/unique as a dueller for all the characters he's ever mentioned in the past, the present and even to come although of course nothing's set in stone. I believe this applies as much to Aerith too *shrugs* but at the end of the day what does that come down to? It makes the character more interesting/unique as a dueller? Of course someone who likes the character is also going to like this (and even if they don't *and* like the idea of a dueller being more interesting they may come to) I see no point in denying this >.>

I try to be generous about what I give out, especially in cases like FF8/WA5 where they don't get even their most basic skillset without their equips. However, I value consistency in my interps. It's why I have a set of guidelines. Aeris/E.Skill does not follow that set of guidelines. That's all there is to it. It's because I feel that these sorts of things -can- be justified that I follow this interp that incorporates my generosity. Sometimes it works well for people, and sometimes Aeris doesn't get an E.Skill materia.

I -do- agree that you can hold your own views. If you wish to make a set of guidelines that says 'being next to the materia in a plot scene' qualifies as a strong plot claim, that's fine. Stick to it. I'll support you. I won't vote that way because I don't agree on such a tenuous claim, but I'll do what I can to help.

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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2009, 01:38:50 AM »
There has been some serious discussion recently about allowing storebought (or easily given to any PC) damage magic for casts in the DL. This applies only to damage magic, not healing, status-infliction, buffing, or other such effect spells.  The reasons behind this are multifold but mostly it represents the in-game damage scales better and allows good mages to properly shine. Some other benefits include single elemental resists coming up less often due to more damage variety and less arbitrary inflation for some casts.

I figured we could use a topic to discuss some of the points of this and what casts it effects. A listing of the casts potentially effected would be...

Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy 6, Final Fantasy 7,  Final Fantasy 8 (?), Grandia 1, Lufia 2, Mana Khemia, Pokemon, Every single last Suikoden, Saga Frontier, Valkyrie Profile, and Wild Arms 5.

Some of the biggest winners of this interp are runeless suikoden mages, Aeris, Tia, some (unranked) water type Pokemon, Relm, and others. As a result of this a lot of damage averages go up slightly so that would hurt a lot of fighters and mages with non-storebought/initial magic a little bit. It would be a good idea to collect numbers for in the future.

So feel free to post thoughts on this system and what the effects are. For example what magic should be allowed and who it makes better and by how much. This is NOT a discussion for what you think is allowed under some kind of plot claim/gameplay claim system (ala the recent GF posts or various specific materia/esper setups and so on). Please limit this to the relevant storebought/easily obtainable for all users damage magic. Note again that this is only damage magic, not status.

I second the damage bought magic, as long as the final attack + knights of the round and similar spells are banned that is.
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Re: Allowing storebought damage magic in the DL
« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2009, 01:57:31 PM »
Thanks Djinn.

I'm still with Pyro, NEB, etc on this and am willing to support with stat topics. I have a suitable LoD file to work with so I can whip something up with that. Though Snow's covered why it doesn't make much difference for LoD I'm still interested in exact numbers and a list of figures for comparisions between the characters. It'll be interesting to see just how much difference there really is between Miranda/Meru's Psyche Bomb X and Kongol's >.>
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