Author Topic: DL Playership/Ranking Drive 2009 (Read 21235 times)

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #125 on:** December 04, 2009, 09:32:04 AM »

Pokemon wise, I really wouldn't look at anything past Gen 1. Gens 2 and 3 are going to lose too much of gen 1's strength, especially since the gen 1 Pokemon are sometimes even in the later gens. Because of that, I wouldn't be completely against going the Onix/Chancey route (Although in terms of legit Lights, I'd much rather go for Pidgeot/Butterfly, who I feel like it was more likely that people used). Although, Golem>>>Onix as a rank. Eevee...may be one of the worse ideas from Pokemon I can think of.

I'm going to working on trying to cull SN generic stats soon, so hopefully they'd be up by ranking.

Sir Donald 3.2 · « **Reply #126 on:** December 04, 2009, 04:44:03 PM »

Quick points before I dive back into my Exam Studies/Projects:

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Would it count as a FW or a full game to nom the 'Common Pokemon Package'?

According to the ranking rules, only Single Forgotten Warriors would not count as a "same slot". The CPP, being more than 1, would take a full slot in Phase 2.

Also, move to split the Pokemon Discussion post Results to its own topic; the Poke-Build team will have to hash out a lot in the next 6 weeks, and it would be nice to not clutter up a general topic.

I'm not sure that assigning all "Played" games a #2 on a "Willing to Play" list is a good rubric for DL suitability. The debate on the Pokemon series in this thread is a good example of how whether people have played a game is in no way an indicator on whether they would want to rank that game. I say redo the survey and ask that respondents list in order of preference (both personal and DL suitability, or a combination) games you have already played/have played significantly enough to be able to comment on ranking. (We can take the current "Willing to Play" list on its face value.)

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #127 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:04:32 PM »

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According to the ranking rules, only Single Forgotten Warriors would not count as a "same slot". The CPP, being more than 1, would take a full slot in Phase 2.

Where is that written?

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Also, move to split the Pokemon Discussion post Results to its own topic; the Poke-Build team will have to hash out a lot in the next 6 weeks, and it would be nice to not clutter up a general topic.

Since the counting phase is done at this time (and that's why I spoke up earlier, to make counting easier), the only real reason to split the topic would be to ensure I saw people's notes on getting copies of the game. Since I intend to talk to people individually about this, and because I'm a pretty attentive reader, I don't mind (though yes, if people wanted to get working on making a formal list, it probably SHOULD go to it's own topic just to keep it coherent and organized).

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I'm not sure that assigning all "Played" games a #2 on a "Willing to Play" list is a good rubric for DL suitability.

By DL suitability you mean... would people rank it? *shrug* DNR exists for this very reason. There's a few reasons overall, though, why I took that assumption.
1) To make the math work. I wanted a game with middling or even low players to stand a chance to win, but not do so easily.
2) If someone has ALREADY played a game, then at some point they in fact wanted to play it. Ranking it highly on an averaged list reflects this.
3) This list is not meant to reflect what people want to rank the most, but what games I could easily get enough players to rank something for. In other words, the most important aspect of this topic was the lists of people who have not played many games, because being able to get their support is the greatest challenge to ranking right now. Games that people have already played serve as a baseline. Now! That said, once the most viable ideas are determined, then yes, choosing among them is when getting feedback from all players of the game about which would be most exciting is valuable, but that's not what I'm doing at this stage.
4) On the whole, as long as a game is mechanically sound and has a rankable draw level, people will support it, or at least not oppose it, during an actual ranking session. If they feel it's boring, they will lobby for less people from the game rather than not ranking the game at all. At least, historically.

Meeplelard · « **Reply #128 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:32:34 PM »

To verify the Single FW rule thing...

Its only for ranked games. If we ranked, say, Onix alone this time, he would not conflict with the other options, cause RBY is "Ranked", and he's a lone FW from a ranked game. However, if we ranked Empoleon, he'd count since he's a new game.

The FW from Already Ranked Game mostly applies to the first stage only. They still count as a Nom Slot, HOWEVER, they do not count towards the "2 highest move on"; if an FW from a Ranked Game is >= to the #2 game on the list, it moves on along with them. Again, this is for RANKED games only and its SINGLE FWs; a group of FWs would probably count as a whole game slot.

That said...

Nitpicking, but Elfboy, did you mean HYdro Pump when you said Surf? Granted, for DL purposes, they're very similar, and only really matters when Starmie faces other healers but still (Granted, Confuse Ray can futz up Healers, and it can try stall tactics...its almost like Starmie has *gasp* OPTIONS DL legally!)

Anyway, Gen 1 Gyarados was utterly generic Water Type; good SpA, but it didn't stand out at it, IIRC, and just had unique typing; Starmie was generally considered one of the best of the original 150 PERIOD. Being the best Water type is nothing to scoff at considering how many quality Water types tehre are *AND* its a pretty big typage. While Starmie no longer has that "Best Water Type EVAR!" thing, its still a contender and worthwhile put on teams, both in game and competitive, so yeah, I won't go into detail about him in later gens.
Gen 2, Gyarados is so horribly useless its not even funny, Gen 3, he got a little better...cause of TMs and Intimidate. He's still not exactly a good option, just doesn't embarrass himself the way he did in Gen 2; its really only in Gen 4 that he lives up to its Plot/Anime Hype, when all those fun physical options come into play.

Oh, with regards to Anime, Gyarados can't even really bank on that; Misty's best Pokemon were Starmie and Staryu (Starmie left after a point, but I believe she always had Staryu after that still, and it was generally her best due to lack of Starmie?), Gyarados just popped up arbitrarily when they wanted MENACING WATER TYPE in the show. Basically, while the anime is a bad thing to go off of, I'm just indicating that even using the anime as a trump card, perse, it doesn't help Gyarados' case, cause Starmie counters appropriately.

OblivionKnight · « **Reply #129 on:** December 04, 2009, 05:49:46 PM »

Where's the reference for that?

We've ranked FW packages before, I'm fairly certain (will check later). As long as they get enough support to be ranked in either stage, the next best game for support will be done.

So if game 1 and 3 are new, and 2 is a FW package, if 1 and 3 get more support than 2, they will get in (to the third stage which is the actual rankings). If 1 and 2 are the highest vote getters, and 3 is supported (i.e., 2/3+ support), then they all get in. That's how I thought it was done, at least - might be a good idea to look in to that.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #130 on:** December 04, 2009, 06:32:09 PM »

A single FW needs to beat (or tie) the #2, not the #3 game on the list. This prevents weak FW ideas from sneaking through in a situation where the rankings look like:

Wild Arms 4: 30 supporters
Dragon Quest 8: 29 supporters
FFT FW Kletian's 13 Speed Ninja: 3 supporters
Hoshigami: 2 supporters

in this situation only WA4 and DQ8 would move on to the rankings . Kletian's 13 Speed Ninja would need 29 votes to also go on.

superaielman · « **Reply #131 on:** December 04, 2009, 07:50:03 PM »

SN: Danette, Juno, Vitali, Galahad, Grunzford, Tricia, Odie. Abstain leaning no on Agrippa/Pinot, no to Layna. No to Levin, who is a bit of a headache. No to Endorph sadly. I'd love to see him in, but... no. Hell no to bosses or anything demon path related.

Also what Elfboy said. Got to beat the second game on the list.

Talaysen · « **Reply #132 on:** December 04, 2009, 07:56:10 PM »

The issue is whether or not multiple FWs from the same game count as a slot or not, not what they have to beat.

superaielman · « **Reply #133 on:** December 04, 2009, 08:04:10 PM »

They count as a slot. Only thing that doesn't take a slot is a single, solitary character from a already specifically ranked game.

Meeplelard · « **Reply #134 on:** December 04, 2009, 08:06:13 PM »

I'm pretty sure Multiple FWs count; we've had a few FW packages in the past, IIRC (usually going rank 1 character -> rank entire cast if they are good style), and it counted.

Now, a different question could be "where do we put the bar?" I can see a package of 2 FWs not counting as taking up a slot (especially if they were voted on separately, like we get FW#1 and FW#2, and both just HAPPEN to beat out the #2 game being voted alone. If it was FW#1+2 package, it'd be a little more confusing), since its still small and can be said to feel wrong that an entire game got gipped cause the package was a total of two people, but...again, that begs the question: Where do we put the bar? I suppose you could say "an FW package must be x amount, otherwise, you must nom the character separately" to avoid scenarios like that.

superaielman · « **Reply #135 on:** December 04, 2009, 08:13:19 PM »

Two characters take up a slot. If we're to the point that two random FWs from the same game beat the second game, it's time to shut down voting and freeze for several months.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #136 on:** December 04, 2009, 08:26:58 PM »

Obviously 2 characters take up a slot now, and equally obviously, if people blow all their suggestions on two separate people rather than joining them into one package, that's a bad sign.

At the same time, I don't think there's a significant difference between 1 legit FW and two or three from the same game, as a DL thing. Put another way, while "Pokémon- Alakazam, Gengar, Golem, Starmie, Magikarp, Butterfree, Snorelax" is a full cast worth of characters and rightly would take up a nom slot despite technically being from a ranked game, I don't think there's a notable difference between "MMXCM FW- Hippopressor" and "MMXCM FWs- Hippopressor and Epsilon", and consequently having the range on non-slot consuming FWs reflect that strikes me as reasonable.

Mind, I think the upper range for this would be 3 characters, maybe 4. While still arbitrary, above that range you start being as large or larger than some fully ranked games, which feels like the right cutoff for this sort of thing (What is the smallest fully ranked cast in the DL, once you discount games where the majority is ranked as something else (ie XS2, ACF)? SoM maybe? it's 3 I think. So yeah, that feels like a good cutoff.)

superaielman · « **Reply #137 on:** December 04, 2009, 08:32:27 PM »

It's always been one character.A FW is just that, a single character who was left behind for whatever reason. They are slightly easier to get ranked since they are so minor for the most part.

OblivionKnight · « **Reply #138 on:** December 04, 2009, 09:41:23 PM »

The smallest ranked cast is FFX-2.

As for SN...would support ranking all the plot PCs and major plot bosses. Probably abstain on the Demon Path. Would support Endorph and Levin. Drazil's a plot fusion, so no there. Layna is a yes.

Monkeyfinger · « **Reply #139 on:** December 05, 2009, 12:16:15 AM »

Aside from including Levin that list looks good.

Monkeyfinger · « **Reply #140 on:** December 05, 2009, 12:23:10 AM »

Wait, I just remembered a problem with SN bosses: The whole interp call regarding whether you take durability against hits taken or rounds taken. The more PCs a boss faces the more it matters, and SN bosses tend to face around 50, when most tend to only have to worry about like 6 tops.

Not sure how I'd feel about them now.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #141 on:** December 05, 2009, 02:45:38 AM »

Stat topic has Boss durability vs. an average -squad-, not units.

Up to you to determine how many squads you want to take against the bosses (and how much you factor in the boss support), but they probably have a pretty stable durability.

SN: Danette, Juno, Vitali, Galahad, Grunzford, Tricia, Odie, Layna. Thuris, Raksha, Drazil. Abstain on Pinot, Agrippa, Revya, Levin, Endorph. No to Feinne, Gestahl, non-World-Eater bosses.

Super, why to no Layna?

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #142 on:** December 05, 2009, 02:55:48 AM »

Layna is a PC who you get like two battles from the end, and is effectively a temp. You don't even get to use her for the final fight, so little to no exposition as a PC.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #143 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:04:58 AM »

She -is- a lategame PC, but you most certainly can use her for the final battle. I'm staring at her in my party against Drazil right at this second.

And I can't remember exactly how many battles are left when she arrives, but she joins at around your level (higher if you did no inspections), so there's no reason not to use her.

She's also got more plot than any character outside of the main, Danette, and Levin...

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #144 on:** December 05, 2009, 09:34:08 AM »

Djinn, you mean Layna auto-scales?

Also, the Layna you see at endgame is not the version of Layna that has the whole mess of plot anyway.

I'd be down for Thuris, but Thuris 1 was super memorable to me. World Eater 3 has plot issues, all other bosses are OHKO bait.

Fudozukushi · « **Reply #145 on:** December 05, 2009, 09:56:27 AM »

Layna has five battles she can fight in. Generic fight 1, Generic Fight 2, Plot Battle vs Drazil WR, Battle against Gesthal, Final battle against Drazil WR.

I'd rank Thuris because he'd be so goddamn weird as a dueller. Raksha, sad as I'm to say, would be a DNR due to the helper squads that inflate his levels when he smashes them. Feinne is no. Most of the humanoid bosses can't even really due anything, so screw them. Dio and Gesthal are the only ones that can even attack I think.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #146 on:** December 05, 2009, 06:23:54 PM »

I'd be pretty against all the SN bosses. Thuris, if I remember him correctly, is all about summoning meatshields which gets headachy as a DL thing. Feinne has about 7 different fights, the majority of which involve her levels exceeding 1000 and um yeah. Raksha I don't even remember what he does aside from have a plot sequence in which you have to break his defense. The final boss is explicitly 3 different people... although it is the only form for each of them. Geshtal... eehhh.

Layna is the same Layna the Firebrand, just stuffed into another body since Virtuous needed hers to seal away Gig. Unlike like every other reincarnated person in the game, Layna retained all her memories, and despite most of her more famous backstory stuff being Virtuous in her body, she still figures pretty heavily into things (her absorbing souls on the Drazil side is the only thing keeping Hapheness from completely dying off). So yeah, I don't see where she's insignificant or out of nowhere or anything.

Monkeyfinger · « **Reply #147 on:** December 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PM »

Thuris has high 2HKO damage off of like 2x average speed (I don't know if SN speed is linear and the ~2.5x figure in the topic is for real, I'm just going off ingame memory here.) The summons are slow and weakish and REALLY frail (about 10% of Thuris's HP) and only good for slowing people who can't do MT damage. It's GOOD slow, so the summons are a neat trick, but they're not Thuris's main game.

Raksha is physically tanky with good speed and damage, and 20% regen. Extremely wide views on how much HP SN bosses actually have is more of a snag than normal because of the regen and defense, which can range him from "pretty good physical spoiler" to "so tough that the likes of Myria1 could never make any headway against him." (I fall into the second camp.) Interesting dueller but even if SN comes up for ranking I dunno how good his chances would be.

Unless I'm forgetting a more standard form, Feinne's a light because when you beat her you do it with a horribly overpowered Reyva squad.

Fudozukushi · « **Reply #148 on:** December 05, 2009, 07:09:35 PM »

The final Feinne fight for Normal Path gives you a one-shot item that can be used on any squad. Revya, due to matching, probably won't 1hko but can't do shit against Revya anyway.

Thuris also has his decor that boosts his stats if he has more guys on the field then the enemy. The summons are also a tad faster than average PC speed, and one of their abilities is a speed down.

Monkeyfinger · « **Reply #149 on:** December 05, 2009, 07:12:23 PM »

Yeah, forget ranking Feinne.

Dog Pile could be neat I guess. Probably deserves a small stat topic revision to note what it actually does in practice.

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Author Topic: DL Playership/Ranking Drive 2009 (Read 21235 times)