DL Playership/Ranking Drive 2009

[DjinnAndTonic]

And if you're allowing room bonuses, then the multi-acting bonus would be figured into the average for all squads... evening out the damage and giving them a massive turn-2 penalty...

IIRC, it was act three times, can't act for three turns or something?  In that case, in a three turn average, their damage is... exactly what one turn would be!  So they're doing 3x their damage on turn 1, and there's 8 of them, and they're all above average damage.  24x average or so is basically killing anyone.  The fact that they can't act the next two turns doesn't matter anyway because the opponent is probably already dead (and if Revya needs them to act again he just doesn't use that room).

Ah..! Huh. Yeah, people scale things that way. She'd be unarguably Bluelike to those people. Argument retracted. Potential Bluelike.

I wouldn't personally scale the squads this way (I would hold them all to the same criteria as DL-legal PCs), so to me she's only a High Godlike, but that's a really nightmare-ish point.

I need to look into that room to see how it works, though.

[Dhyerwolf]

Yes, Dhyer, but you'll probably find a wildly varying response for each person, and those type weaknesses are also far more relevant to their duelling worth than FE WTA (FE WTA is 15% more evade, 15% more accuracy and 1 damage. SN raises/lowers your damage output/durability from 1.5x to 2x. Depending on type weaknesses and how you interpret them, those could actually cause divisional shifts because of the massive type spoiling. Not to mention there's a huge field of variance even by dividing by weapons.

There are? Something like the counters strikes me as something with wildly varying responses (Just via extrapolating with FE), but for the most part, the strength/weakness system should have semi similar views upon people. The wildly varying responses that could potentially come up are on DL fighters that have several prominent features (Billy: Gun for attacking, yet a cleric) or several features with none taking extreme prominence (Flare: Archer whose best damage is magic with healing). So, yes there will be splits, but divisional shifts? SN people who land in Light are there generally because they don't have much damage, and their durability is only averagish (After throwing in generics), and they might often be slow on top of it (Sure, Tricia hating fighters doesn't help, but the flip side of mages hating her is a balance). Most of the other rankables are Middles with some buffing, maybe minor healing, and smash limits (And decent damage beyond that). There is one clear plot Heavy; The only people's whose divisions might be altered are people who are already very close to the divisional line anyways.

Revya being a clusterfuck is a whole separate issue from this though, and I don't see how the heart/skull system when combined with Revya makes the whole cast a problem. Sometimes mains get stupid/Bluelike and the rest of the cast is ranked without him! Quite rare, but we have at least 2 of those in the DL (One of which featuring even more nasty weaknesses and an AI issue to boot!).

[Cmdr_King]

Will lock things down to aid the counting process in about two hours.  I think everyone has voted, but  check to be sure!

[Cmdr_King]

Preliminary Numbers
 
26 responses.  Average unplayed pool size: 6
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn- 7/23 CNPs (30.4%)
Kingdom Hearts- 6/26 DNR (23.1%)

I'm a little boggled.  As things stand, all listed games will be going to the final selection process.  If you do not feel Kingdom Hearts would be something you'd rank, whether you played it or not, please explicitly tag it DNR if you have not done so and post a notice.  Similarly, if you cannot play Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, please explicitly note this fact and post a notice if you have not already done so.

[Cmdr_King]

A note on the magical math: Points were scored in two ways. 
For Willing to Play games, they were given points equal to the inverse of their position on the list.  So, someone who had 2 games listed game 2 points to #1 and 1 to #2, while someone who had 10 games listed gave 10 to #1, 9 to #2, and so on.  This biases towards games rated highly on list of people who haven't played much... which was an intentional decision on my part.  As I figure, people with large lists are busy or rarely play RPGs or any of a host of things, so their tastes are the ones that are most important to cater to and work with.
For played games, an average of the Willing to Play listsize was taken (in this case 6), and all played games were assumed as worth #2 on an average sized list... in other words, for this session, 5 points.  I was worried about the precise value for this, wanting to both give well played games credit (since a head start is valuable) but not have them utterly dominate by default.  In all, looking at the results, I think mean-1 worked pretty well.

Edit: playership counts!  People listing games as partial were counted as having played the game, on the premise they could easily finish with sufficent motivation... like the game being ranked.

Kingdom Hearts- 134 points.  21/29 responses
Pokémon DPP- 136 points  19/29
Xenosaga 3- 93 points.  12/29
Wild ARMs XF- 148 points 20/29
Radiata Stories- 115 points 12/29
Suikoden Tactics- 126 points  16/29
Mana Khemia 2- 148 points  12/29
Phantom Brave- 125 points 16/29
Dragon Quest V- 122 points 10/29
Fire Emblem 10- 127 points 15/29
Soul Nomad- 140 points 17/29
Star Ocean 1- 119 points 16/29
La Pucelle- 128 points 16/29

Yup, a tie.  Now, given logistical issues (ie the issues of getting systemless games spread around), the game I'm going to persue more strongly is Mana Khemia 2.  That said, I feel safe saying WAXF is going to be back, so if you've played MK2 already, bare it in mind.

I'll be crunching some other stats (notably, who's played what) later this evening, but in the interim... those with the means, please pick up a copy of Mana Khemia 2 and play it!  If you've been putting it off, now's the time!  If you don't fall into either, well, that's why I need to figure out who doesn't have it!

[Cmdr_King]

And... preliminary needs lists.  If you're on here, it's because you were listed as not having played the game in question.  If you have a copy and haven't gotten to it, or pick up a copy on your own, post so I can thin the herd.

Unfortunately, I will have to say that non-North Americans are... kinda... SOL I suspect.  Inter-continental shipping is a bit much, for starters.

Needs MK2- super, Meeple, djinn, Tonfa, CT, Sage, OK, Yoshi, Soppy, dude, Monkey, Snowfire, Gate (except not), Nitori, Magetastic, Lance

Needs XF- CT, Yoshi, Bard, Monkey, Andy, Snowfire, Snow, Lance

Otherwise, will try and get hold of people and try to figure out how to get games to them over the next week.

[Sei]

Oh damn, I knew I shouldn't have procrastinated <<

Anyway, just tossing this here even though it's too late for voting.

Played:
La Pucelle: Tactics

Intend to finish:
Wild ARMs XF (Kinda stopped after Chapter 1 when brother took the PSP and finished the rest of the game <<)

Willing to play (In order of willingness):
Pokémon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum (Though will need to buy a DS first)
Suikoden Tactics
Phantom Brave

[DjinnAndTonic]

Well, MK2 was getting in anyway. I guess it's nice that more people will be driven to play it before it happens, though. Yay to more Gust games. I wish I could play a copy sometime before next year... >.>;;

Oh, and the list, in point order for easy reading!

Wild ARMs XF- 148 points 20/29
Mana Khemia 2- 148 points  12/29
Soul Nomad- 140 points 17/29
Pokémon DPP- 136 points  19/29
Kingdom Hearts- 134 points.  21/29 responses
La Pucelle- 128 points 16/29
Fire Emblem 10- 127 points 15/29
Suikoden Tactics- 126 points  16/29
Phantom Brave- 125 points 16/29
Dragon Quest V- 122 points 10/29
Star Ocean 1- 119 points 16/29
Radiata Stories- 115 points 12/29
Xenosaga 3- 93 points.  12/29

Haha, you suck XS3. SN at #3 is cool. FE10 being so low on the list is a little disheartening though. I wish you jerks would have just ranked Ellincia in FE9. She's the only one who -really- feels like she's missing from the FE9 cast. Illyana is cool too, but Ellincia's such a notable plot character.

Even if only MK2 and XF get in this season for games, there's still FW potential (Ellincia~, Prier~)


Bored and thinking about this, so I'm adding the list in descending order of playership.

Kingdom Hearts- 134 points.  21/29 responses
Wild ARMs XF- 148 points 20/29
Pokémon DPP- 136 points  19/29
Soul Nomad- 140 points 17/29
La Pucelle- 128 points 16/29
Suikoden Tactics- 126 points  16/29
Phantom Brave- 125 points 16/29
Star Ocean 1- 119 points 16/29
Fire Emblem 10- 127 points 15/29
Mana Khemia 2- 148 points  12/29
Radiata Stories- 115 points 12/29
Xenosaga 3- 93 points.  12/29
Dragon Quest V- 122 points 10/29

Notable that WAXF is the highest without any DNRs, while MK2 only beats out the failures. To be fair, MK2 and DQ5r are very new compared most things here. PkmnDPP is still a strong ranking idea and SN leads the medium-ish ideas.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Hippopressor~ Vayne's Shaq Fu Fanboyism~

[DjinnAndTonic]

Actually, I'm 100% down with Hippopressor FW. Who's with me?!

[Dark Holy Elf]

Do you really have to ask?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

so fucking in

[Taishyr]

I'm game.

[Lord Ephraim]

I ignored this topic mostly because I've played every game in this topic except Suikoden Tactics.  That game can blow me.  I've beaten all of them except XF, because the beginning of the game is awful and the characters caused me to throw up in my mouth.  No willing to finish either of those games at all unless I get a shiny reward >_>.

If people are interested in games, I own hard copies of every game except XF and Star Ocean 1.  I have PSP hax to allow me to play those games.  I've been wary of loaning games since Otter effectivly stole two of my games, Meeple's copy of MMXCM dissappeared in the mail, and my PSP "hax" battery is lost in limbo.  But I think I can work something out.  I have both PS2 and Wii version of Phantom Brave, though the Wii version is still sealed and only I get to rip those off.

[Bardiche]

Actually, a lot less wordier: I intend to buy WA:XF myself once I have spare money, so no need to send me anything, heh.

[dude789]

I can probably get MK2 soon.

[Cmdr_King]

Having had time to ponder at work, refining my overall conclusions.

Overall, I believe the current voter pool is somewhere between 60 and 65 votes total.  29 of you responded to this topic.  We essentially represent half of the DL, which from the standpoint of this topic is awesome.
With that in mind, I think I feel safe saying that a solid ranking case is pretty much anything above 20 people here; while we are probably the more dedicated half of the DL and the most likely to play games for the purposes of ranking and the like, history has shown that such groupings are often still not unrepresentative of the DL as a whole.  In other words, if 20 of the people here have played a game, the odds that fewer than 10 people who did not respond played the same game are quite bad.  So with 20, there's a definite chance that over half the DL has played a game, which is the general threshhold for rankability.

You can probably see where this is going, but moving on to how this affects our winners.
The will to get Mana Khemia 2 ranked seems pretty good, and I have few doubts the game will get in in the future.  However, given that ranking time is less than two months from now, and the overall logistics of getting copies spread around, I think it's safe to say that acquiring another 8 players in that time frame is probably very optimistic.  Still, considering that Mana Khemia 2 was released in late Summer 2009, even 12/29 is still remarkable, and had I planned out my list here better I may well have left off Mana Khemia 2 for that reason.
Meanwhilst, Wild ARMs XF?  I did not expect that the game would ALREADY have 20 people who have played it.  I knew that the numbers were a bit distorted due to the game being a common one to play partway into then trail off, but still, that's an amazing thing.  Anyway, basically I think I'd be willing to support this game right now, meaning that the logistical issues of getting copies out are reduced; not nearly as many people need them and I'd have thought.  Naturally, making some efforts to get a few more copies out to shore up the ranking case, and encouraging people with partial playthroughs to finish, are very good things, and will hopefully be worked on in time for the next ranking session.

Given XF's state of near-or-maybe-even-complete readiness, my original conclusion of focusing on MK2 is still valid, but for a completely different reason.  While the handful of people that need a shot at XF and, hopefully, can be given one will otherwise be occupied, there's still no shortage of people that can get a jump start on Mana Khemia 2 and get that game ready for the next ranking session, which is very encouraging considering that at the outset of this topic I was openingly contemplating ranking freeze.  It's nice to think that, no, we can really stay ahead of the need for that and keep the DL flowing nicely.

[DjinnAndTonic]

By that logic, Kingdom Hearts or Pokemon DPP should actually be better ranks than MK2 for this session. Of course, KH has a lot of DNRs.

So, WAXF and PkmnDPP would be the big new games to add to the DL. Conveniently, they also represent -both- of the next gen handhelds.

I think my noms for the next ranking period are FW: Hippopressor and PkmnDPP. Because I hate human PCs, obviously... >.>;;

[Cmdr_King]

Nah.  Despite Gen 4 being just one player behind, there's a clear difference in score... even though games people couldn't play due to system were often automatically placed below those they could theoretically play (this, incidentally, is why FE10 ranked so low).  That difference additionally represents... well, how exciting the game is.  People who haven't already done so strongly tend to still really want to play it.  Which is a definite boon to any game up for ranking.

So, aside from being technically stronger, and aside from the fact that, despite system ownership gap, I'm pretty sure I could get more XF players in the next month than Pokémon players, people seem to CARE a lot more about XF.  I mean, shit.  At least one person outright DNRed Gen 4 for being "like a magician reusing all his old tricks" (I did not count it as a DNR, that's not a DNRable offense, but it's a concrete example), and a large discussion broke out, in this topic!, debating the merits of ranking common RBY pokémon over Gen 4.  Even with acceptable-if-not-awesome numbers, I do not expect that to go away.  And while there's nothing wrong with ranking Alakazam (I would certainly vote to rank him in Round 2, and about any other poke commonly brought up), I'd be much happier to rank XF; it's new, it's from an unrepresented system, and while the pokes suggested are good, they aren't nearly as awesome as Levin or Clarissa or the XF boss crew.

So, y'know, that's what I'm going to work on.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm... that's a fair point. I'd definitely prefer to rank a few RBY pokemon instead (like the ones mentioned in this topic... except maybe I'd want Piplup, too).

Would it count as a FW or a full game to nom the 'Common Pokemon Package'?

[Cmdr_King]

Fair point, they're FWs.

[superaielman]

Re: Your system- We're averaging 70 voters a week. A game with 20 voters is a good base to start with, but:

All that shows is the maximum potential of that game. It isn't how a game does against FF7, it's how it does against the MKs or the SoA's of the DL draw wise.  The console could lead to some bad crossover- say if XF draws ToS or another odd console game like that.  I may be a little gunshy here because of the miserable failure of WA5, granted.

B: XF has several partial players. It's also on a system that is going to be hard to get playership for. Casual voters really, really matter even now as we've seen with the failure of WA5. I'm not sure what there is to rush there; yes people like the game but without the right level of playership it's going to fail badly. I'm very, very strongly against an XF push until it can pony up more internal. The console alone means it's going to be notably worse than a PS2 game, and the comparative PS2 games for internal aren't world beaters as it stands.

Would it count as a FW or a full game to nom the 'Common Pokemon Package'?

Would be RBY.  I've suggested/heard some non RBY thrown into there, but it doesn't seem especially likely.

[Shale]

Played:
Kingdom Hearts

Partial:
Phantom Brave
Wild ARMs XF (Will not finish)

Want to play:
Soul Nomad
Dragon Quest V

[Magetastic]

I can most certainly get my hands on a copy of MK2, the problem is the timing. There's one copy floating around on my end, and it's currently with the Elf, so I'd be waiting until he's finished, possibly a little later, depending.

[Yoshiken]

Seeing as the Pokémon are all ranked in the DL under one 'game' (PKMN), could we not just use that to cover both interesting Pokémon and the DPPt ones? >.>  Means we cover whatever interesting ranks there are without having to wait for ages for ranks people want.