DL Playership/Ranking Drive 2009

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

As for Revya, well, he's Godlike whether you allow summoning or not, it's just a question of -how- Godlike. So not as bad as Marona. Even if you allow summoning though, he's still only Yuna-level Godlike since his squads don't stop him from being attacked and they don't get to act immediately. His best strategy is still to try for OHKO damage with Demon Blast.

I'll just note that, within those you divided, there's still plenty of room for arguments. Also, the tiers - you're not only arguing if they're weak or not to a certain class, you also have to argue -how- weak, and those vary from class interaction to class interaction. It's big enough to be a trainwreck regardless.

And, as for Revya, there are still those ridiculous stat boosts she gets from possessing people, which not only make her near-impossible to kill, they make her also slaughter averages (I think my Revya had at least 5x the stat spread of the rest of the cast, for instance. Haaaaaaaaave fun OHKOing that crap, not even Lady can do it - not that it'd matter, since Revya squads are actually faster than Lady and kill her dead) - and you'll get people arguing over those all day. Not to mention that her summons are an initiative thing: she can simply summon fast squads (only the leader needs to be fast to boot) and watch the bumrush slaughter. When you have a dueller who has multiple claims to being so stupid good that she might as well be Bluelike -and- you have a bunch of interp issues that also affect the rest of the cast in her case, she's just not worth the trouble ranking. Not to mention that I find somewhat egregious to disallow the summoning from a gameplay standpoint: it's a unique ability directly tied to her, both plot-wise and gameplay-wise, much like it is with Marona, and the only reason to ban it from her would be to make her more rankable. I disagree very strongly with that kind of approach, as it creates artificial splits and is untrue to the character in a forced DL sense, punishing him/her due to... being unique? If a character has a strong case to be too good, nerfing him/her just to accomodate in the league is unnatural, not particularly agreeable and still leaves seasons liable to be ruined. Souji managed to stay because he's still below Bluelike even with the most generous interp possible. Revya needs you to be far harsher than that to accomodate into rankability. Same thing happened to Minato.

[Monkeyfinger]

Don't forget that one blue room... los banditos? Which lets squads act right when summoned.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yes, you could argue that further. I'm still out on the jury for rooms, but that's just adding fuel to the fire for Revya's case at Bluelike.

[Luther Lansfeld]

 

I DETECT ANTI-PIPLUP SENTIMENT!!! I WILL CRUSH YOU ALL!!!!

Oh, and SN is a godawful rank and anyone who tells you otherwise is on the drugs.

[074]

Better than more Suikoscrubs of the generic variety.  Or other characters who literally have nothing more than a basic physical.

[Cmdr_King]

Soul Nomad doesn't strike me as truly DNR bait, but it does require several assumptions to get there.
A) Revya, specifically, is unrankable.
B) As duellers, the cast must be put through strange contortions that would never exist in game but that generally follow existing guidelines established throughout the DL's history.  It's sorta like FFVIII, but with a better product at the end.

Actually, only those two are truly necessary.  Personally I'd toss rooms on basis of their being so godawfully random, but otherwise seem to be the game's answer to equipment.  Although it could be argued that, due to the way you get rooms, they aren't really storebought or infinitely available, so getting people specific rooms is unreasonable.

Anyway, it's not really so bad as it could be, however, it does involve significant fiddling and, as has been noted in times past, it's possible that a game requiring this much work to rank is not something that would happen in the modern DL.

[Dhyerwolf]

I think rooms are only coming up for the Revya summoning arguments anyways.

I just go by weapon types for strengths/weaknesses generally. Far easier to figure out their average weakness to say swords than to try and pigeonhole every one they face into a specific category.

I actually find that Djinn's topic makes everything pretty straightforward myself (Just needs generics for comparison).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yes, Dhyer, but you'll probably find a wildly varying response for each person, and those type weaknesses are also far more relevant to their duelling worth than FE WTA (FE WTA is 15% more evade, 15% more accuracy and 1 damage. SN raises/lowers your damage output/durability from 1.5x to 2x. Depending on type weaknesses and how you interpret them, those could actually cause divisional shifts because of the massive type spoiling. Not to mention there's a huge field of variance even by dividing by weapons.

And to me, it's less "whether it's straightforward or not" (Djinn managed to make the basics of it rather straightforward, yes, but only due to a significant stripping down of the system as it stands. Feels like it's the closest thing to interpretable the system gets regardless, so at least he deserves credit for that) than "it's still massive, massive fiddling and tossing around - and a specific, huge issue that just can't be circumvent into rankability (Revya) - for a rank that's neither very DL-friendly nor attractive externally". One or another makes it bad, but manageable. When both merge together, though? That's just a godlike DL rankability combo - in the sense that it screams "get the fuck out and don't let the door hit your ass on the way" like very little else. It's basically a less extreme PB, but that's not a flattering comparison when PB manages to have rankability comparable to a Genesis platformer.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I throw out rooms because even though it's pretty easy to get 4 of any room for a PC, your max number of rooms is 9, so there's almost no way to get one room type for an entire team. You can lock up to 5 rooms, and throwing out Revya's Home room (since it -can- be purchased), that still leaves three rooms that you have to scroll through on random over and over again to get a full set of 9 Los Banditos rooms, for example. And the random generator is loaded against getting multiple copies of the same rooms -and- against getting the better rooms w/ high numbers of formation squares. The chances of getting 9 of any room are something in the thousands to 1 ratio...

As for Revya getting squad summoning, I don't see why she would get to summon full squads of 9 units on Los Banditos when the PCs themselves aren't even getting room decors or support units... It would make more sense to hold her summoned units to DL-legal rules, too... So... 8 squads of a single unit on a null room would be pretty fair. Revya may have the unique ability to summon squads, but rooms and support generics aren't unique to her OR her summoned squads.

Assuming you -do- allow Revya to summon full squads of 9, due to the range of summoning, Revya can never get more than 60 units total out in one turn due to how summoning placement works. And I would compare their damage against other full squads instead of comparing it to the single-PC damage average. This would probably give you about 7x average damage all together, assuming you have them all on the (nearly impossible to get 9 of, in-game) Los Banditos room. Pretty awesome, but our highest Godlikes can survive it.

As for Fusing with townspeople, I actually already have the numbers for that in the stat topic, assuming that Revya has Fused with every NPC possible in the game. Aaaand... she -does- get signicantly stronger, but it's only about double where she was before, and the damage increase isn't actually very notable. She -does- become a lot more durable against magic, though. Still status-bait and very ID-able, though.

Adding in Initiative for her Demon Blast skill along with Full 60-unit Los Banditos Squad Summoning AND 100% NPC Fusion -does- make her pretty Bluelike, though. Zophar, Ghaleon, Souji, and Myria could probably play with her, but that's probably about it? Other high-durability types like PD, Jade, Fou-Lu might be possible.

Still, that's a lot of favorable calls to make. Getting 100% of the NPCs in Fusion is reasonably difficult on its own, but at least FAQ-able. 9x Los Banditos Rooms is ridiculous. Not holding summoned squads to the same criteria as the PCs is also pretty suspect. But even still, Revya could be beaten by the High Godlikes.

On the flip side, allowing -none- of that, Revya's still got fast OHKO potential, and makes Godlike. So it's not even a division change.

I understand the kneejerk against ranking someone with potential interp problems, but I think the problems are being exaggerated.

Ignoring Revya, though... if you'd like, I could go through the match bonuses in the stat topic and add a guideline for typing instead of relying on people remembering the class names. It's really not as much of an interp headache as you're indicating.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Adding in Initiative for her Demon Blast skill along with Full 60-unit Los Banditos Squad Summoning AND 100% NPC Fusion -does- make her pretty Bluelike, though. Zophar, Ghaleon, Souji, and Myria could probably play with her, but that's probably about it? Other high-durability types like PD, Jade, Fou-Lu might be possible.

Actually, nobody can. A five-people squad of, say, a fast whatever+Pyremages, is bound to be like OHKO-level damage (the damage average isn't even in the 200s house, anything that deals average damagex5 is crushing a normal person under its heel. Now multiply this by five or six. I'm not even making the high-room assumption, just some whatever shit with five slots, which is borderline default), and those are piling up really fast. Fou-Lu is blowing up to like three pyremage squads before he goes, for instance. Myria lasts a bit longer, but she fails at OHKOing Revya and utterly fails at MT. Souji just gets overwhelmed by his second turn. Zophar, Ghaleon et al also get overwhelmed (Fate Storm is slower than almost any squad Revya can put out, his MT isn't OHKO-level good and his status isn't literally fatal, just effectively, which isn't enough) because nobody ever can survive the level of offense a bevy of SN squads can put out. It doesn't even -have- to be a room with Los Banditos - it's just unnecessary gravy to the duelling nightmare pile. If you allow Revya to summon, she's instantly bluelike. Period. Only Lady theoretically has the MT might to kill every single squad Revya is able to summon via damage, and she doesn't have the speed+durability to outpace the squad rush. Other methods... how many people have perfect, full MT instantly fatal status who can both survive Revya's initiative strike (remember, she -can- summon and attack in the same turn) and outspeed the squads before they zergrush? And that's not even getting into how Revya could arrange generic units to keep her healed, to buff her, to make -whatever- she wants. It's not any less legal than Chongara summoning his many monsters to litter the field (and I find the legality arguments -against- Chongara's summons shaky. If his summoning is illegal, so is Yuna's. That's getting into that "magical spirit of duels" bullshit that Sage already nailed down ages ago as being dumb on the last Yuna wahbulance we had), and given Revya's circumstantial claims to fame beyond summoning, it's an impossible deal to overcome in a duel environment.

On the flip side, allowing -none- of that, Revya's still got fast OHKO potential, and makes Godlike. So it's not even a division change.

It's the difference between being rankable and unrankable. A divisional difference doesn't matter.

As for the weakness system... it's still enough of a problem that it's a significant strike against the game's ranking that only adds up to the even worse problems it has. A rock-paper-scissor system that has the potential to cause full divisional shifts either way to characters depending on how inclusive - or non-inclusive - you see it = no.

[superaielman]

I think you're overrating SN's rankability problems, the system isn't that hard to figure out. Revya not really being rankable and the not great potential are far bigger strikes against it to me. I wouldn't mind ranking it in theory, but blah in practice.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

To me, the issues add up to "enough that it shouldn't be ranked". The issues I tend to highlight are just the ones that annoy me more rather than being the biggest ones. SN is both a game that doesn't really have much potential in the DL and one that is openly obnoxious as a DL game in many respects. But it's the sum of all the issues combined that makes SN a terrible enough DL idea to the point it's worth arguing for it to stay the hell away. I'm of the firm belief that a game being rankable in theory doesn't make it any better an idea if it already has multiple, serious issues anyway. If a game is a bad idea to rank, it shouldn't be ranked.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Actually, nobody can. A five-people squad of, say, a fast whatever+Pyremages, is bound to be like OHKO-level damage (the damage average isn't even in the 200s house, anything that deals average damagex5 is crushing a normal person under its heel. Now multiply this by five or six. I'm not even making the high-room assumption, just some whatever shit with five slots, which is borderline default), and those are piling up really fast.

I understand what you're saying, but it seems pretty suspect to allow a squad of 6~ Pyremages to be compared against a single-PC squad in the averages.

If you're going to allow Revya's summoned squads to be summoned without any of the DL restrictions that the SN PCs have (forced to single-unit squad, no room bonuses), then it doesn't make sense to view those summoned squads against an average of restricted PCs. Instead, you would compare a squad of 6 against the averages of all possible combinations of 6-unit squads (and if you allow room bonuses, then factor those into the averages as well).

I suspect that will make the summoned squads each deal average damage on their own, effectively giving Revya's summoned squads, at -best-, 8 turns of average damage in a row if they all attack at once off of the Los Banditos room.

Surely we have Godlikes that can survive 8 shots of average damage + Revya's Demon Blast.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

It actually makes sense from both an intuitive and logical standpoint: Revya can summon those full squads in-game off her own power, just like a boss that is capable of summoning support can summon multiple monsters for support at once in the DL (none of the examples I have are ranked, sadly, but... Dr. Psyche, from MMXCM, is an example. Tetri from MK2 is another). Or like Yuna can summon all three Magus Sisters at once. It's different from a PC being a squad.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I don't really see how being summoned by Revya makes the DL restrictions not apply to the generic squads? All of the PCs are summoned into battle by Revya and they are still interpreted in the simplified/restricted manner that OB PCs have.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Summoning characters into battle =/= coming into battle straight with them. The PCs/generics aren't squads by themselves. Revya specifically summons squads, however, like Guv specifically summons entire monster teams to fight for him. This isn't to say you can't restrict the summoning to single PCs (it's possible in-game too), just saying that summoning squads isn't necessarily not kosher.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Summoning characters into battle =/= coming into battle straight with them. The PCs/generics aren't squads by themselves. Revya specifically summons squads, however, like Guv specifically summons entire monster teams to fight for him. This isn't to say you can't restrict the summoning to single PCs (it's possible in-game too), just saying that summoning squads isn't necessarily not kosher.

Well, I suppose if you can make an argument for it, then -someone- in the DL will interpret it that way... >.>;;

I still think Revya's pretty rankable as a high Godlike and doesn't quite hit Bluelike... It's really too bad about the interp split. Plenty of DL games have issues (FF8 and VP1 come to mind), but I guess SN doesn't have the draw to let us overlook those. I'm done arguing for it, if people think it could be ranked, they'll say so. Until then, there are other things here worth ranking more, though SN at least has a notable number of writers. I'm surprised how many people here -have- played it.

[Cmdr_King]

Blame super for that one.  There was a 4 month period or so where he made it something of a pet project.

[SageAcrin]

In all fairness, that was less about people ranking it and more about people playing it.

super whips for many reasons!

[Cmdr_King]

Oh, indeed, indeed.  Still, he did cause the playership.  I think it was also part of a long term plan to bolster Ogre Battle's numbers, but I could be wrong.

[Talaysen]

What, people can play and hype games without the intent to rank them?

LIES

If you're going to allow Revya's summoned squads to be summoned without any of the DL restrictions that the SN PCs have (forced to single-unit squad, no room bonuses), then it doesn't make sense to view those summoned squads against an average of restricted PCs. Instead, you would compare a squad of 6 against the averages of all possible combinations of 6-unit squads (and if you allow room bonuses, then factor those into the averages as well).

I suspect that will make the summoned squads each deal average damage on their own, effectively giving Revya's summoned squads, at -best-, 8 turns of average damage in a row if they all attack at once off of the Los Banditos room.

Wait no.  Putting aside the fact that I don't really agree with this scaling, this is still not correct.  If you average the squads of six generics, then Revya can choose to summon the squads that do the most damage (or if he needs the speed, the best damage with the speed he needs, etc.).  The damage will NOT necessarily be average or below.  In fact it is likely that it will be higher.  If you allow Los Banditos then he just uses THE best damage period and that will definitely be above average damage.

Also, I believe there was a room that let squads act multiple times in a row on their first turn (but couldn't for awhile after that or something?).  Increases that first turn damage output quite a bit.

[DjinnAndTonic]

If you allow Los Banditos then he just uses THE best damage period and that will definitely be above average damage.

Also, I believe there was a room that let squads act multiple times in a row on their first turn (but couldn't for awhile after that or something?).  Increases that first turn damage output quite a bit.

It is quite possible that since he's using the -best- damage period that he's getting slightly above average damage out of each of his squads, but the damage spread isn't really that huge without decors/room bonuses.

And if you're allowing room bonuses, then the multi-acting bonus would be figured into the average for all squads... evening out the damage and giving them a massive turn-2 penalty...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

And by factoring the summoning done by the separate squads into the averages straight off, you just turned the entire non-Revya cast cast into horrible, horrible Lights to boot. Revya and Minato are quite parallel in that sense as well (hi, we both make our cast suck forever and ever if we're factored in without nip-tuck).

Also, saying the damage spread isn't huge is a lie - just look at the damage difference between, say, Dracosages and Archers. If Odie deals far more damage than Tricia (just keeping with the example), obviously the same would hold true for the generic equivalents, although the difference would be lower from an absolute sense. Although, honestly, if you're allowing -that- level of stuff for Revya's squads, I doubt a turn-two penalty would ever be a problem - even if they all manage, say, just 10x average damage+Revya's first strike (which is really a very low-end estimate), the amount of ranked people who can survive a 5x PC HP salvo in the DL are reduced to... Myria1, really, and -she- is going to have to endure multiple turns of that (because, if the squads are eating turn penalties, Revya obviously isn't going to make them all kamikaze rooms. The amount of strategy leeway that summoning allows is quite vast, you just tend to not notice it when just bumrushing everything into death already works its magic). Soooooooo, yeah.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Having form buffers helps, too. PD, Jenna, Souji, hell, maybe even Naoto can beat him. Endure + Mamudoon gets ID-bait pretty easily. Also, maybe Belial? SN's only true MT abilities are aftergame summon spells.

Also, due to the amount of basically average-damage generic classes in SN, the spread really -does- get watered down. Multiplying it out by increasing the number of people in a squad doesn't really make the differences more noticeable either.

[Talaysen]

And if you're allowing room bonuses, then the multi-acting bonus would be figured into the average for all squads... evening out the damage and giving them a massive turn-2 penalty...

IIRC, it was act three times, can't act for three turns or something?  In that case, in a three turn average, their damage is... exactly what one turn would be!  So they're doing 3x their damage on turn 1, and there's 8 of them, and they're all above average damage.  24x average or so is basically killing anyone.  The fact that they can't act the next two turns doesn't matter anyway because the opponent is probably already dead (and if Revya needs them to act again he just doesn't use that room).

Having form buffers helps, too. PD, Jenna, Souji, hell, maybe even Naoto can beat him. Endure + Mamudoon gets ID-bait pretty easily. Also, maybe Belial? SN's only true MT abilities are aftergame summon spells.

PD loses because formshift resets the turn order each time, and I'm sure Revya is faster (not to mention she doesn't OHKO and Revya can summon healers).  Jenna only wins if Bharaiva or whatever OHKOs which may not happen because Revya's stats are insane.  Souji easily loses because Revya can just kill him three times before he even gets a turn just fine.  Naoto is the same except twice as easy.  Belial gets beat because Revya has CTB initiative and just blitzes her before she can put up Distortion.

Also, due to the amount of basically average-damage generic classes in SN, the spread really -does- get watered down. Multiplying it out by increasing the number of people in a squad doesn't really make the differences more noticeable either.

If a cast has 100, 200, and 300, then the highest is 300/200 =1.5.  If you add in a bunch of average damage people (200), then the average is still 200 and the highest is still 300/200=1.5.  Adding in a bunch of average damage scrubs changes nothing but the standard deviation, which is irrelevant here.  There only needs to be ONE generic with notably above average damage and Revya can just summon a bunch of those for maximal damage.