DL Playership/Ranking Drive 2009

[Dark Holy Elf]

The issue with Pokemon is that you can't just throw together a haphazard ranking package (see: FE8) and get people to support that. Pokemon has enough people who don't want to see it in the DL that you need to have a pretty well-reasoned, justifiable package to get it through. And I doubt a combination of DPP and RBY will fly, particularly since there are well-founded reasons for opposing DPP on draw alone.

[Meeplelard]

I believe we discussed a "Common RBY Pokemon" ranking idea once before.  The list came out to something like...

Alakazam (almost everyone has used a Kadabra, and Alakazam is just an extension of that; its also lack of necessary TMing means the trained ones you fight are good representations of them as a whole.)

Gengar (generally popular.)

Golem (see Alakazam, for the most part)

Magikarp (Gyarados wasn't a good idea since while you fight many, they're just memorable for "lol OHKOed by Thundershock"; Magikarp, meanwhile, is legendary for its fail...)

There may have been others, but these 4 seem decent; Gengar's the only skeptical one.  Machamp is NOT really a good idea cause seriously, very few people have used one.  Eevees would be interesting, but split path and less popular than starters.
Dragonite was a big "no" cause its DL worth is nowhere near its in game worth, not so much for effectiveness, but cause its a huge horizontal shift; Dragonite relies on tactics in the DL that are incredibly effective here but meager in game; flipside, in game its worth comes from its good TM draw complimenting its stats, sometihjng it can't really take advantage of here.  Its also one of the more annoying Pokemon to actually GET, and the ones you fight are mostly memorable for "One shotted by Ice Beam", and Dragonair  isn't very good representation of Dragonite contrast to Graveler and Kadabra being decent examples of what Alakazam and Golem can do (as in the latter are just stronger variants of the former; they're good for the same things.)

Stuff like Pidgeot and Raticate?  Raticate = no; ok, everyone uses a Rattata cause its available before options are varied...but in my experience its also one of the first ditched, you don't get to see much more of what it can do besides a few weak normal attacks.  Pidgeot is just bland and boring.  Most early game Pokemon suffer from this...

...except Butterfree.  This is one I might support, on grounds that its pretty popular, and it translates to the DL pretty much perfectly relative to its in game worth (In game, its a status whore, DL its...a status whore!)

Unsure where I stand on Crobat; Zubats aren't well known for what they can do beyond confusion, for the casual player I mean, more just "ARGH TOO GOD DAMN MANY OF THEM AND THEY GIVE SHIT EXP" nuisance factor.  Psyduck/Golduck I believe I stated is a bad idea on grounds that the only people that use one use it for HM Slaving.

[Yoshiken]

See, this is why I'd involve newer gen games with this part, at least. Things like Heracross, Machamp, Blissey... From a range of games and have each found duelling worth at some point throughout the series - probably not enough to establish a major change in division, but enough for them to be interesting (e.g. No Guard Machamp w/Dynamic Punch)
Essentially, what I'm suggesting is more than just RBY, but not necessarily DPPt - just interesting Pokémon from all currently-ranked games.

[Hunter Sopko]

A Magikarp rank would be worth it for the inevitable Magikarp v Jogurt fight.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Meeple's list looks good to me, though I'd argue for Eevee on the grounds of being popular, unique in RBY, and relatively interesting because of formchoice (for all that it would probably only use two of its forms).

Machamp would be cool just to get a fighting-type in.

And of course, Piplup just needs to be ranked, it is teh steel penguin.

So...
Alakazam, Gengar, Golem, Machamp, Butterfree, Eevee, Magikarp, (Empoleon)

This... gets all the unused typings of pokemon into the DL, too, I believe? Ghost, Rock, Fighting, Insect, Dark (from Umbreon), (Steel from Empoleon...  cause Piplup's special and deserves to be in on sheer awesome).

[dude789]

Seeing as the Pokémon are all ranked in the DL under one 'game' (PKMN), could we not just use that to cover both interesting Pokémon and the DPPt ones? >.>  Means we cover whatever interesting ranks there are without having to wait for ages for ranks people want.

This could work very well. Honestly, the DL needs to rank a new system soon, that's part of the reason that it's been difficult to find new ranking ideas is because we've been trying to stick to the ever decreasing amount of new PS2 games. This is why I think Pokemon DP is a better rank than WA XF. While WA XF is a really cool game with neat duelers, pokemon DP has much better external and the DS is currently the better rpg system.

Truthfully, I just want to stop putting off ranking a new system. We've been discussing it for for quite a while and I think the DS and PSP are finally emerging as systems that are decently to well played amonst the internal members of the DL.

[Meeplelard]

Meeple's list looks good to me, though I'd argue for Eevee on the grounds of being popular, unique in RBY, and relatively interesting because of formchoice (for all that it would probably only use two of its forms).

And that's just it.  "Unique in RBY" is a BAD thing; there's only ONE OF IT.  This wouldn't be so bad...if it wasn't a clear form choice.  This kind of slams into Eevee harshly.

So why do Starters get the pass?  People are more aware what Starters do, and they're gotten right at the beginning of the game.  Furthermore, since we're talking RBY, the Gen 1 starters were all available in Yellow in one playthrough.

and honestly, they're not that interesting.  Flareon is just Typhlosion whose frailer and less durable...and Typhlosion is already kind of redundant with Charizard.
Jolteon is just a Pikachu variant, better stats, but he honestly doesn't do THAT much special to stand out in the deal.
Vaporeon is a bulky Water type...we have 3 of those in the DL between Blastoise, Suicune and Swampert.

Other Eevees...Glaceon and Leafeon are Gen 4, bad for obvious reasons.  Espeon doesn't really add anything that Alakazam brings, and there's really no contest in whose more recognizable and/or used more.
Umbreon has this major issue that what he is in the DL is NOTHING like his general worth.  In game, he thrives on Pokemon's battle system and how tanks can be made useful through a bunch of neat gimmicks, and generally runs off Breeding Moves, TMs, Tutors etc...he's really a competitive Pokemon, while being overall a poor choice in game.  Its Dragonite all over again, except less used and with Form Split issues.

Granted, Eevee is a starter in XD, which goes up to Gen 3, and Espeon/Umbreon are even your first 2 in Colosseum...the issue is, of course, that these are easily the LEAST PLAYED POKEMON GAMES, so they do little to help the cause.

[superaielman]

Common list, at least from back in the day:


Chansey, Onix, Alakazam, Golem, Gengar, Butterfree, Magikarp, Snorlax,  Heracross, Gardenvoir, Sheninja, Aggron

The second/third gen stuff I have no idea value wise. Aggron is the only one I know thanks to the uber defense.  First gen... Onix has a ton of group history, ame with chansey. They're also interesting lights, which are good to have. Rest are fairly common ones.  There's a good argument for Starmie, but meh to another water pokemon.


Gen 4 needs to be ranked on it's own merits regardless, so it'd be separate.

[VySaika]

Common list, at least from back in the day:


Chansey, Onix, Alakazam, Golem, Gengar, Butterfree, Magikarp, Snorlax,  Heracross, Gardenvoir, Sheninja, Aggron

The second/third gen stuff I have no idea value wise. Aggron is the only one I know thanks to the uber defense.  First gen... Onix has a ton of group history, ame with chansey. They're also interesting lights, which are good to have. Rest are fairly common ones.  There's a good argument for Starmie, but meh to another water pokemon.


Gen 4 needs to be ranked on it's own merits regardless, so it'd be separate.

I'd agree to this list off-hand. They're all well known and (mostly)fairly interesting. Don't think we need Gardevoir and 'Zam though, and 'Zam is clearly the better rank.

And also agree to the Gen 4 needs to be ranked on it's own line. For all that I support it, yeah, it's not the same game as "Common Poke Package", despite them being in Gen 4 as well.

[Meeplelard]

Chansey, Onix, Alakazam, Golem, Gengar, Butterfree, Magikarp, Snorlax,  Heracross, Gardenvoir, Sheninja, Aggron

Chansey and Onix are oddballs, though yeah, true that they have history in NR and board tourneys, and they are pretty well known for what they can do (Chansey laughs at magic, vaguely mocks ITD, dies to physicals, Onix laughs at physicals that don't hit weakness, dies to anything else)

Covered Zam/Golem/Gengar/Butterfree/Magikarp.

Snorlax...could go either way.  On one hand, he's pretty straightfoward; slow as hell, buffs, wins fights of attrition, has Rest, etc.  You fight 2 of them and you see plenty of what he's capable of just trying to catch him.  On the other hand...meh, something just feels off with him.

Heracross my one issue is that he's very much a competitive thing; yeah, he translates to some degree in the DL (Physical Slugger), but a lot of his DL worth is not seen in game since most of his good stuff is either TM or High LEvel (Mega Horn comes to mind.)  Though, just seeing "Heracross" would make people think "Big physical damage dealing Bug" so I guess he's straight forward enough, and he DOES have one of his trademark competitive attacks (Reversal) in the DL so yeah, probably about as good as you'll get out of a generic Gen 2er.

Sheddy = No.  He's an OB Ghost; there's really no place he can be ranked.  he performs equally good in Godlike as he does in Light.  Again, its a Pokemon who UNQUETSONABLY defeats Orlandu and UNQUESTIONABLY loses to Malak.  The only thing that made him stand out is how unique he is.  I dunno; don't feel he should be ranked cause there are other Gen 3er's who I feel deserve to be in over him.

Garde...on one hand, yeah, commonly used and interesting (Calm Mind and what not), but...eh, does feel a tad redundant when we are ranking Zam alongside it.  Garde really was just a gen 3 alternative to Zam in game, who had the niche of "No Trade evo required", though, offset by how Kadabra >>> Kirlia.

Aggron...feels like the Garde scenario, but compared to Golem.  Yeah, he's got differences enough to stand out, but don't feel he's quite justified enough if that makes sense?

[dude789]

I think the list is pretty good. I'd say keep Gardevoir, but drop Shedinja. Gardevoir's different enough from Alakazam to work (Alakazam is all about the fast damage while Gardevoir prefers to status, buff and smash) and he has plot significance as Wally's signature pokemon. Shedinja is just a nightmare of a rank who would honestly do about the same regardless of the division he's in. Maybe add Starmie since Misty's Starmie is such a memorable fight.

As for ranking it with D/P, I'm for ranking them together. It makes it a pretty significant rank, but I would still prefer to rank a game from a new system as soon as possible.  

Edit: A bit more detail on my thought of the other pokemon. The RBY are all decent, but I feel that the other games should have at least one representative of a commonly used pokemon. Heracross is really one of the few interesting pokemon from G/S/C so he works. Aggron and Gardevoir are similar to Golem and Alakazam respectively, but the differences are pronounced enough to work. They also seem to be the best representatives of the cast as noteworthy pokemon and both have somebody who uses them.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I would add Starmie because he is available in almost all games (everything except Fire Red specifically, and Leaf Green is the more popular of that duo in my experience), and is a competent, notable pokemon both in-game and in-competitive, and has drawn well and had positive reactions when he was in Not Ranked.

(Not that I am a fan or anything.)

I'm also a big fan of ranking Raichu because he is an evolved Pikachu, super recognisable as such, and gives the Pikachu skillset (one of the more varied/interesting of a DL pokemon) a chance to show off at endgame stats.

Also chiming in for it being a non-Gen4 package only, if my previous posts didn't make it clear. I like Pokemon in the DL and Staraptor is better than you, but there is just no call to rank Pokemon, which has some problems as a ranking idea, when it isn't backed by strong draw, and DPP doesn't seem there yet for whatever reason (DS still lagging a bit + poorer reception than past games, I guess).

[Meeplelard]

I would not object to ranking Starmie myself; it has been a consistently good In Game Pokemon since Gen 1, widely available, and translates pretty accurately.  Also a decently varied skill set and one that isn't overused (yes, we have several Water Types ranked, but all minus Kyogre are more towards defensive builds...Starmie's a sweeper, that has Recover, and a few other tricks that make a nice rounded skillset.)

[Cmdr_King]

Chancey and Onix being on there makes it feel out of date.  While there's the NR history I guess, that doesn't feel like a compelling reason to rank them as opposed to the fully evolved forms, and I don't really think they stand out enough to merit that.  I mean, heck, I don't think Blissey is even a notably better dueller, and for folks that vote on more recent gens, Onix's fail isn't quite so hilarious as once it was; it's certainly no longer at the Magikarp level.

Snorelax is a neat choice; like the trade evos, he's available in every gen and, while not a great dueller (slow tank is hard to run right in the DL), is quirky and competitive.

Heracross... is really obscure in-game.  FLIPSIDE.  He's also remembered as like the only non-legendary Gen 2 pokemon to be worth a damn except like Tyrantiar, both in-game and competitively.  Also, as Meeple noted, if you wanted a token bug type, he's probably the best choice, although Butterfree's not bad either (I tend to think it's pretty common to have raised a caterpie just to see what happened)

Sheddy is hilarious but a terrible idea I think.  Immunes damage not of its five weaknesses, some of which may or may not translate to the DL.  I suppose he is weak to Fire though.

Gardevoir rules face. I like her better than 'zam in-game, but if I remember her level up list she loses her niches over 'zam in every catagory, so may be redundant.  Pity.

Aggron's a case of being more interesting as a DL entity (r4 to Normal) than anything else.  Feels somewhat arbitrary.

I'd also argue in Gyarados' favor.  While, yes, they're common enemies and it makes them look bad, I know I've used one in every gen in at least one playthrough, and I feel confident saying that using Gyar is pretty common.  Granted, may suffer somewhat due to getting notably better with the physical/special split?  But that oddly doesn't feel like a change in his game so much as getting better tools to run it with (sorta like Gen 4 Rayquaza, rather than post-Gen 1 Dragonite).  'sides, it reinforces that, yes, we just want Magikarp in for puny awesomeness.

Edit: Starmie's a neat option too, although... hm.  I dunno, for some reason I keep thinking of him as a "more of a competitive thing" and somewhat TM reliant, but maybe that's just me since I've never really used one.

[dude789]

I just thought of this, but what are the thoughts on ranking the other 2 legendary dogs? We have Suicune and I can see why we originally ranked only him (crystal plot) , but now it seems kind of awkward.

[Cmdr_King]

Runners are still a strong fuck.dat for me.  'sides, Latis are much cooler if we ever lose our minds and rank runners.

[Meeplelard]

Suicunes also somewhat more popular and recognizable than Entei or Raikou.  I know I remember being able to at least say "hey, he looks familiar!" when I saw Suicune, where as Entei I ONLY knew cause of a brief shot of him in the trailer for the 3rd Pokemon movie, while Raikou I didn't even know what he looked like til I saw him in game. 

yeah, as CK said, Runners are just a bad idea; Suicune has the Crystal aspect at least, and is generally the most popular of the 3 anyway.  He's also got more plot in the anime <_< >_>

[Dark Holy Elf]

Edit: Starmie's a neat option too, although... hm.  I dunno, for some reason I keep thinking of him as a "more of a competitive thing" and somewhat TM reliant, but maybe that's just me since I've never really used one.

Starmie destroys Gyar as an in-game option in the first two gens and probably FRLG as well. Oddly I think the reverse, Starmie works very well without TMs (Recover + Surf + defensive buffs + Confuse Ray) and Gyarados needs Earthquake so that his massive ATK stat has meaning (except in Gen 4 where there is Waterfall, Aqua Tail, Ice Fang, and other physical options).

If it's not clear I don't think much of Gyar as an idea; tends to vary notably between gens and his best showing both in-game, in-competitive, and likely as a dueller is DPP which, as we know, is the weakest draw by far.

[OblivionKnight]

Eh...

I'd support (of RBY), Snorlax, Psyduck, Kadabra, Graveller, Chancey, Onix, Meowth, Starmie, Haunter, Butterfree, Magikarp, Evee, Farfetch'd, Ditto.  I'd also support Raioku and Entei and all the other legendaries (wasn't a fan of just ranking Suicune, still would like them all ranked).

I'm, while not against the above, not hugely interested in adding more Pokemon at this time.  Would be preferable, as my opinion is currently going to state, to do a new game if possible, then do other stuff next time.

Besides, rank WA4 bosses!  Fiore, Asia, Hugo, BALGAINE, ENIL, HAUSER!!!

[Cmdr_King]

Starmie destroys Gyar as an in-game option in the first two gens and probably FRLG as well. Oddly I think the reverse, Starmie works very well without TMs (Recover + Surf + defensive buffs + Confuse Ray) and Gyarados needs Earthquake so that his massive ATK stat has meaning (except in Gen 4 where there is Waterfall, Aqua Tail, Ice Fang, and other physical options).

*shrug* Just an impression I always had; that Starmie doesn't work at all without T-bolt.
Otherwise, I always feel like Staryus come after that point in the game at which the player just stops caring about raising new things, and consequently isn't going to be as memorable or well used as Gyar.  It may be however that this feeling is the minority of players, I dunno.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Wow, I've never run Starmie with T-Bolt once. Psychic is the TM I'd be more likely to give him if anything, for the STAB. I wouldn't give Starmie T-Bolt unless I was also giving him Ice Beam, and Boltbeam is more of a competitive thing than anything else anyway.

*shrug* Different playstyles, beyond that. I do know, personally, that I have met plenty of Starmie players (IRL, Board 8, what-have-you) and he did score very highly in Meeple's topic (easily beat Gyar, but it was pure RBY), so... yeah, not worried about his in-game status.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Starmie has that whole Water/Psychic thing going on to make it more useful than Gyarados to me, and I remember planning my RBY team around Starmie for some reason.

Meeple's list looks good to me, though I'd argue for Eevee on the grounds of being popular, unique in RBY, and relatively interesting because of formchoice (for all that it would probably only use two of its forms).

and honestly, they're not that interesting.  Flareon is just Typhlosion whose frailer and less durable...and Typhlosion is already kind of redundant with Charizard.
Jolteon is just a Pikachu variant, better stats, but he honestly doesn't do THAT much special to stand out in the deal.
Vaporeon is a bulky Water type...we have 3 of those in the DL between Blastoise, Suicune and Swampert.

Other Eevees...Glaceon and Leafeon are Gen 4, bad for obvious reasons.  Espeon doesn't really add anything that Alakazam brings, and there's really no contest in whose more recognizable and/or used more.
Umbreon has this major issue that what he is in the DL is NOTHING like his general worth.  In game, he thrives on Pokemon's battle system and how tanks can be made useful through a bunch of neat gimmicks, and generally runs off Breeding Moves, TMs, Tutors etc...he's really a competitive Pokemon, while being overall a poor choice in game.  Its Dragonite all over again, except less used and with Form Split issues.

Granted, Eevee is a starter in XD, which goes up to Gen 3, and Espeon/Umbreon are even your first 2 in Colosseum...the issue is, of course, that these are easily the LEAST PLAYED POKEMON GAMES, so they do little to help the cause.

I'm pretty sure if Brig can justify its existence in the DL, Eevee's forms are all well-known enough to draw. I understand that each of its forms aren't the most unique of pokemon, but it's the option of formchoice that makes Eevee appealing in-game, and it would translate damn well in the DL. Just seems like a strong choice to me. We would probably just rank it based off its form with the best utility (Espeon, I'd guess? Heavy, maybe?) and allow it to use a different form if it needs it during a season.

Easy to interpret and definitely one of the most recognizable ones being talked about here. Specifically interesting for Yellow's rival having an Eevee, and GSC's Red battle featuring an Espeon.

On Raikou and Entei... Well, they -are- Legendaries, so I wouldn't vote against them... but they aren't particularly more interesting than the Legendary birds... and the Starters tend to do a lot of the same things they do, too.

Chansey and Onix - No problems with them, except that Onix and Golem are a bit too similar for me. I guess the existence of Blissey and Steelix makes them more interesting. Steelix in particular gets a lot of exposure, and then we'd finally have our Steel-type. I'd probably put them in a lower tier of rankability than the first ones Meeple mentioned, along with Starmie.

Besides, rank WA4 bosses!  Fiore, Asia, Hugo, BALGAINE, ENIL, HAUSER!!!

Don't forget GAWN! and FARMEL!

[Cmdr_King]

Given that the eeveelutions are permanents, ranking Eevee specifically is a poor, poor idea.  I'd not object to ranking Vaporeon, Jolteon, Flareon, Espeon, and Umbreon mind.  But Eevee == no.

[VySaika]

Yeah, I somehow glazed over shedinja on that list, which is indeed a huge NO. Derp.

Jenna will of course shoot me for saying this, but also opposed to the Eeveelutions. Just...not really enough of a point, as meeple pointed out.

Starmie I could definately get behind as well. And yeah, o_O to it needing Tbolt. I ran mine with just Surf and Psychic and it did just FINE.

[superaielman]

I'm pretty sure if Brig can justify its existence in the DL, Eevee's forms are all well-known enough to draw. I understand that each of its forms aren't the most unique of pokemon, but it's the option of formchoice that makes Eevee appealing in-game, and it would translate damn well in the DL. Just seems like a strong choice to me. We would probably just rank it based off its form with the best utility (Espeon, I'd guess? Heavy, maybe?) and allow it to use a different form if it needs it during a season.

Bad ideas from a game are still bad ideas, regardless of draw. You just get more flexability  for ideas the stronger the game's draw is.

Chancey and Onix being on there makes it feel out of date.  While there's the NR history I guess, that doesn't feel like a compelling reason to rank them as opposed to the fully evolved forms, and I don't really think they stand out enough to merit that.  I mean, heck, I don't think Blissey is even a notably better dueller, and for folks that vote on more recent gens, Onix's fail isn't quite so hilarious as once it was; it's certainly no longer at the Magikarp level.

I'm pretty strongly biased towards earlier ranks. Chancey and Onix are both highly memorable fighters based on RBY for a division that trends towards bland fighters. The group history just gives them a reasonable case for ranking, whereas Steelix and Blissey don't really have anything that stands out.  Pikachu is a superior ranking to Raichu, those two are superior to the evolved forms.

For that matter I am fine with completely skipping gen 2/3 with this package.


For next time, I would consider SN if the internal/writers improves some. Skip Revya and redo the stat topic a little (Generics should be in an SN average, see the OB topic for why.) and it'd be okay. Of course getting an atlus title with some rankability issues ready for on site is a challenge.  Mmm.  I could definitely be argued for it as my second idea next time, for all that I have absolutely no problem shooting it down. It is a small enough ranking at least. Suiko Tactics.. blah. I'd like to see some actual fan interest in that. It feels like WA5 mark II there.

SO1/DQ5 are options down the line. DQ5 just needs a solid internal push and it'll be okay. MK2 is in the same boat once it gets some more time, as it is still newish. XF needs more players since it's off console, pokemon DS/RS/XS3 can burn.