Replacing standard RNGs

[Twilkitri]

Let's say we take FF4 and we remove all random elements. Ignoring the battle system, we want to look at the rate of running into enemies. Now I don't know how it's selected when you run into an enemy at the moment, it may not be random for all I know, but if that's the case it only adds to my case anyway.

So how do we select when we're going to next run into an enemy in a non random fashion? We got Mystic Quest Ice Pyramid style which I'm throwing out because it's lame, or we got creating a number of steps until next enemy like BoF2 does? except we won't be generating it randomly like it does, obviously. Presumably more that I'm not thinking of at the moment. So how do we go about this arbitration? Most obvious is to have a factor based on the area you're in. Another factor could be how long it took you to finish the battle; take longer, and the next battle is quicker, which simulates having given nearby enemies more time to come towards you. It also aids in levelling as if you're a lower level, you'll take longer to finish the battle, and consequently you'll get in more than if you were at a higher level and don't need the EXP at that point. You could introduce a factor that decreases time if the party is lower on hp which is perfectly justifiable but is somewhat evil. You have factors based on all sorts of things. And in the end, it results... in a system which is not random, but it LOOKS random. And in this case it is partially under your control, but you won't KNOW that.

[Grefter]

That is simple to answer though, you have viewable enemies on the field along the lines of Lufia 2 in dungeons (still uses random on the world map sadly).

As for why would you want to remove the randomness?  Well for a start as a novelty since everything does actually do random things in the combat systems and like I said, to maximise the strategic elements.

This isn't to say you cannot keep some of the randomness in Twil's suggested system.  Edit - That is the goal here is to minimise the cause and effect being weighted so much on random chance and placing it more based upon the players actions which is EXACTLY what you should be after in a strategy/Tactics game.  Cause and effect directly attributable to player decisions in an intuitive understandable way.

[Talaysen]

There are quite a few games that "look" random but aren't really random, like Twilkitri said.  This leads to there being ways to abuse the "RNG".  I've seen methods for always making certain enemies drop certain items by taking the exact same actions in battle.

Besides, as far as I know, the "standard RNG" isn't random at all.  It's just a series of numbers moving by really quickly.  Crack the pattern and get split-second button timing and you can manipulate it however you want.  FE's system also uses a series of numbers, but there's certainly no time influence in-battle.  In fact, it might be the same series of numbers from the beginning of the game to the end for all I know.

The thing is, the fact that the numbers actually are or are not random may not mean anything.  If you don't know what the numbers are, they're random from your viewpoint, and this is what matters.  A true random number and a fixed number you don't know anything about are the same thing from your viewpoint.

So if you're trying to "remove" randomness, implementing a system that is "not random but looks random" is pointless, because it doesn't really change anything for the player.

(This post is probably horribly structured and I don't really care about fixing it.  Sorry!)

[Grefter]

That would be all old hat stuff.  How often have Twil and I back and forthed about bad documentation and how it kills any worth some things have?  Last I looked like everyone agreed that the better the documentation you have the better it is for a game.  For the encounter thing Twil talks about, all you need is one line in the manual or from one of those dreadful fourth wall breaking NPCs to tell you, the longer you take in battle the more likely other monsters will find you.  BAM! problem solved.  Edit - That is, from that point on whether the player thinks it is random or not or whether it is or not does not matter in the slightest as long as the information provided is accurate.

The current state of RNG systems being non-true random and far more pseudo random and whatnot is of course also old hat, anyone here that didn't understand that about basic computer programming would really shock me.

That said most pseudo random number generations are for all intents and purposes essentially still random unless the player is either emulating or going to truely extreme lengths to abuse it (see Golden Sun item drops and FE8 ruins abuse).  They aren't the kinds of things players stumble accross in game, it comes from working out the mechanics in depth and twisting them to their own benefits, which to be honest I am perfectly fine with.  This again is the case of a player with truely exceptional knowledge of the game getting something more out of it compared to people blindly walking through it.  This is perfectly acceptable.

[Twilkitri]

Well, what I came up with for FF4 there should change things for the player if it's balanced correctly, but they're probably not going to know that.

If you took the ability to see the counters out of the counter system, it would look random and be completely pointless, because it really shouldn't change anything otherwise. The question at hand is: What should the player be able to know?

If you're playing an SRPG, then I see no reason why the player shouldn't be able to see whether they're going to be able to hit or not, as opposed to spanners being thrown into gears, given that they can't alter it without spending units' turns, and given that them knowing what the numbers are does nothing for them over half the time because that time belongs to the enemies, and given that the enemies have the same advantage. In a standard RPG on the other hand the player doesn't have much of a reason to need to know the numbers if that system was implemented, since a lot of them among other things don't let you control at which points your characters attack and such, and there are less units to pass the failure on to even if you do, not to mention missing/etc tending to be relatively less worthfull in them since among other things you don't have to worry about movement.

Similarly, why should they know when they're going to get into the next battle? Aside from games with encounter control/escape mechanisms, there's not going to be anything they can do about it. One argument could be that they'd know to heal themselves before entering the fight, but if they're that hard up they should have healed as soon as they left the last one, so it's on their head, not the lack of counter's head. And what I proposed is debatably better than just a random number, regardless of whether they know that or not.


Say we take attack variance in some game, and have it generated based mostly on increasing the closer the attacker's HP is to full, decreasing the closer the defender's HP is to full, and shifting in either direction due to what sort of weapon is being used compared to what sort of weapons the enemy doesn't like used against it, along with minor factors, then we have a debatably better variance system, and we allude to the player that they do more damage if they're healthier and such. And it still looks random because of the other factors, although it isn't. But it does change things because they can see that they're having an effect on it, assuming that this is a game with big numbers.
On reread, I guess this doesn't really mesh all that well with being a fixed number that you don't know anything about as you said. In that case we can allude to some of the factors in the encounter time situation as well. [EDIT] Beaten by Grefter anyway >_>