Author Topic: Henchmen Anonymafia - GAME OVER - SCUM WIN  (Read 37790 times)

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #250 on: December 19, 2009, 01:33:19 AM »
For the record, it has occurred to me at this point that (from my point of view) townGumshoe now necessarily implies a scum team of Axem, Gilgamesh and Oddjob, given that everyone else has been offered the scum hammer and declined it.

On the other hand, I'm back to assuming that townAxem implies a scum team of Gilgamesh, Guidenstern and Gumshoe.

You'll note that this has an overlap of Gilgamesh, who I've effectively decided is scum by this rationale. There are two problems here, even when offered such high scum lynching odds. One is that I can't totally justify clearing Whim from the second scenario, so a Dick/Guild/Whim team sail free by this. The second one is that killing Gilgamesh doesn't resolve the stalemate, and no messing around with the night phase can resolve the pairing, so we'd hit tomorrow with (at best) two pairs of people calling for the other's lynch, and no better way of telling which one is right than we can do now. Worse than that, with Gilgamesh lynched I can't envision a scenario where I'm not the night kill. Call me an arrogant twat if you like for that, but it looks like by far the best odds for scum regardless of the team, mostly because any team needs to limit the cop clears there are.

So sure, poor old Smithers getting NKed at some point is hardly worth crying over (and I'm fairly sure is inevitable on the path to victory), but the best I can do is to resolve the showdown here and now before I do die, and lynching Gilgamesh resolves nothing and still has risk of complete loss.

The key question then becomes which of Axem and Gumshoe is to be trusted, and which is to be lynched. There are things that seriously tug at me when I think about trusting Axem, such as just how sparklingly perfect the cop-claim is with regards to what it implies and the problems it resolved and so on, especially when all it needed to work is a role cop to have scanned me vanilla, and that could just have been what Gumshoe saw so far as I know.

You know what? Crap.

I came here to write this post and convince myself that voting Dick was the only sensible course of action and that I'd already made that judgement, and that previous long paragraph was supposed to basically say 'Axem leaves me with some wurgles, but Dick looks much worse,' but here I stand convincing myself of less and less. The more I think about the claims, the less sense Axem's choice of targets make and the more I can see Gumshoe's, and all of the surrounding actions just don't seem to make sense from scum getting cornered (though Dick's latest response has done nothing to persuade me in his favour). It's frustrating as hell when both sides of the argument look incredibly dodgy. The stress is just stupid, because getting this choice wrong now is even worse than it was before.

Looking for the silver lining to me crapping myself here, I should appreciate that I've reduced it to two teams. I'm now in desperate need of sleep and don't trust myself to get it right (I'll probably wake up and regret stumbling now), so I'm going to be an even bigger wuss and postpone the decision until tomorrow, whereupon I'll examine the likelihood of the two teams before making the choice (again).

In the end, I would like to be voting for precisely either Axem or Dick. I will only vote for Gilgamesh if convinced I cannot get my way but have made my exact stance perfectly clear.


Uggh.

Did I mention how much I hate putting myself in a position like this?

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #251 on: December 19, 2009, 01:47:32 AM »
While I think about it and before I go back to regretting my latest move, you're the easiest one for me to convince here, Dick:

If you are town, then you know that three out of {me, Axem, Gilgamesh, Oddjob} are scum, else you would have been hammered by now. Of these, you can be certain that Gilgamesh is scum from your own scan, and that Axem can't be the odd one out as it would imply that both his scans turned up wrong, which I suppose is possible but harsh. Anyway, even without convincing you of Axem's guilt, you know that Gilgamesh scanned me, and just why would scum be visiting one of their own (in a game of this size)? Assuming you accept this as proof that I must be innocent, then I'm pretty sure you have to reach the conclusion that the scum team is {Axem, Gilgamesh, Oddjob}.

While I'm at it, it occurs to me that yes, that information should be enough for everyone to conclude at least that I am town (with the exceptions of townAxem and me godfather, or if there is some simple scum role that would be interested in visiting another of their own), as it doesn't rely on their own perspective - just that at least one of {Axem, Dick} to be town.


But yeah, I'm back to playing the logic game rather than the psychological game. Off to sleep before I do myself any harm.

Tohsaka Rin

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #252 on: December 19, 2009, 03:17:40 AM »
I've read Smithers' concerns and will say what little I can.

I investigated Oddjob Night 1 because his Prinny switch looked even worse than yours. I investigated you Night 2 because you and Tony were starting to put strong doubts in my mind by the very end of the day and I just had to be sure because I didn't want that hanging any longer than it had to. If there's a surrounding air of "Axem wasn't acting like a cop" that would be because I was deliberately not acting like a cop all game because I didn't want to get NKed. DL scum are good at rooting out power roles from looking at townies that are just active enough to be a presence but not active enough to be a first-glance NK target so I figured being loud and brash would be a good way to fly under (over?) that radar. (Plus it fit the character.)

Outside of that, I can only ask you why you think TownGumshoe would have claimed as quickly as he did - I've already provided reasons why it was a ScumShoe play - and if you really think those reasons are so likely that you'd vote me over him for them.

Tohsaka Rin

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #253 on: December 19, 2009, 03:41:14 AM »
##Unvote: Dick Gumshoe

Idea.

Tohsaka Rin

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #254 on: December 19, 2009, 03:52:34 AM »
Okay.

I'd say that it's unlikely Smithers would be NKed in favor of me if we voted Gilgamesh off - in fact, I'm willing to bet it would force scum to solve the Axem/Gumshoe quandary for the rest of you. Someone tell me if I'm missing something here...

The actual decision for Axem vs. Gumshoe is basically identical on Day 4 to Day 3 outside of the two missing people. Both come down to "which claim do you believe?" and, assuming the right choice is made, the townie will get killed the next night. I'm not sure what extra info there would be to be gleaned between now and Day 4 for making that choice. Leaving us alive tonight, however, gives us a shot at solving Guildenstern vs. Whim that making the decision now would not grant us. Scum can shut that opportunity off by killing the innocent party, but doing so hands you the guilty party on a silver platter, alleviating the pressure of making a choice on us.

So, ignoring incorrect choices, one of three things can happen here:

- Choose on Axem/Gumshoe today, survivor is NKed, Gilgamesh is lynched, one of Smithers/Oddjob is NKed (likely Smithers), Oddjob/Guildenstern/Whim endgame with no extra info.
- Lynch Gilgamesh today, Smithers(/Oddjob) is NKed, Axem/Gumshoe bring Whim vs. Guildenstern info to table, Axem/Gumshoe choice is made, survivor is lynched, Oddjob(/Smither)/Guildenstern/Whim endgame with extra role info.
- Lynch Gilgamesh today, innocent of Axem/Gumshoe is NKed, other is lynched, Smithers(/Oddjob) is NKed, Oddjob(/Smithers)/Guildenstern/Whim endgame with no extra info.

Lynching Gilgamesh gets an endgame no worse than the one we'd get from choosing on Axem/Gumshoe today, but each route has benefits not present in the Day 3 Axem/Gumshoe route - either we go into endgame with decisive info on Guildenstern vs. Whim or the Axem/Gumshoe choice is made for the rest of you. I think this might have been what the Prinnies were getting at when they said to lynch the most certain scum.

It sucks that this is being laid out for scum team to read and make a choice on, but so it goes.

##Vote: Gilgamesh

Chiaki

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #255 on: December 19, 2009, 04:00:56 AM »
I still think Gumshoe is scum >.>

Maya Kumashiro

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #256 on: December 19, 2009, 04:49:16 AM »
Right.  Back.

First off let me say that off just personal reads, I definitely feel scum Gilgamesh more than scum Gumshoe.  Gumshoe's claimed investigations make sense and Gilgamesh exemplified what I'd call a "skilled scum lurker."  Skilled enough that I wasn't able to get people to bite on my case against him Day 2, certainly.

So, let's assume Town Gumshoe.  Pretty much inclined to agree with Smithers' assessment then, with the lack of scumhammering the team is either Smithers' proposed Axem, Gilgamesh, Oddjob (and Oddjob was not around to scumhammer him), or else the unlikely triple vote of Axem-Gilgamesh-Smithers.

Scumshoe implies Town Axem (or Scum Excal for having a Scum-slanted setup).  And Gilgamesh feels a pretty safe lynch anyway in this case, the only time where this fails is Gumshoe-Whim-(Oddjob/Smithers is Godfather).

Yeah, definitely talking myself into voting Gilgamesh here.  Overall favor the Axem-Oddjob-Gilgamesh team anyway and Gilgamesh would be a hit in that case.  Will come back tomorrow morning before actually voting, though, going to get to sleep and think about this before taking the plunge.

Chiaki

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #257 on: December 19, 2009, 05:56:45 AM »
Gumshoe's claimed investigations make sense
Huh?


Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #258 on: December 19, 2009, 10:10:58 AM »
Axem: yes, that is exactly the set up I had in mind when I called a Gumshoe vote 'weak' and a Gilgamesh vote 'strong' (#237). I then decided that lynching Gilgamesh would result in case 2), which only allows for useful information assuming that you're town (and there's absolutely no way case 3) happens if you're scum), and has the problem from my point of view that I would be dead and no longer able to make the crucial decision.

But I tell you what.

Let me go back and do my checking on the two possible teams. That way I can have my opinion to at least be there in any potential remaining days, and there'll at least be a minor bonus on offer.


Oddjob: well yes, of course you do. In fact from your point of view if Gumshoe isn't scum then it must be a {Gilgamesh, Axem, Smithers} team.

Oh, and with Axem and Gumshoe on the same train but the game not over, that's confirmation right there that Gilgamesh is definitely scum, so the Guildenstern-Gumshoe-Whim team is no longer a threat, as marginal as it seemed. But yeah, it's not like it's been about being sure about Gilgamesh being scum or not for a while anyway.

Chiaki

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #259 on: December 19, 2009, 10:27:57 AM »
Oh, and with Axem and Gumshoe on the same train but the game not over, that's confirmation right there that Gilgamesh is definitely scum
Can you explain how? Why can't both Axem and Gumshoe be scum?

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #260 on: December 19, 2009, 10:32:48 AM »
Because then we have like no power roles at all in an 8:3 game?

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #261 on: December 19, 2009, 10:34:06 AM »
I mean, I can see us having a watcher instead of a cop, but nothing at all? Just a doctor and a ghost writer?

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #262 on: December 19, 2009, 11:50:54 AM »
I'm just tying myself up in knots here, and conclude that I've mostly wound myself up enough to not be of much use. I think the key thing here is that I've always been convinced (for bad underlying reasons) that Oddjob is town. It's Guildenstern on the other side who's actually caused me the most pondering, as his current actions don't quite fit the profile I want him to fit if he is scum.

The contradiction I'm facing now is in the re-read, in which I'm finding it very hard to believe that Gumshoe and particularly Guildenstern aren't scum, but Gilgamesh's actions strictly favour the {Axem, Gilgamesh, Oddjob} team. Other than the very early day one vote on Axem, he's spent most of his time ripping into Guildenstern and Gumshoe. Obviously sure, that's what bussing's for, but I think the thing that stands out most is his vote for Guildenstern towards the end of day two. #179 is his last of the day, and I don't know, it looks dangerous. Depends just how much I want to weigh the value of bussing on scum's scales, and how much it could be trusted for scumbuddies to direct it elsewhere.

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #263 on: December 19, 2009, 11:57:51 AM »
In fact screw it, I'm re-dedicating myself to the townAxem stance. There are holes in both directions, but I think there are far more holes in the {Axem, Gilgamesh, Oddjob} case and that's it mostly my stupid pride getting in the way from not wanting to feel like a tool from being manipulated quite so thoroughly if I'm wrong in that direction.

I think the tipping factor I should be holding on to here is that scumAxem => scumOddjob, and it's Oddjob who I just can't see as scum here. I just hope I'm right, because I'm still convinced that scum need to kill me tonight.

So sure, let's say I'm happy to put the foot down on the Gilgamesh train now. I won't do so immediately in case anyone has anything left to say, but I suspect that would only be Oddjob given that he's the only non-Gilgamesh player to have not expressed the intent to vote for Gilgamesh.

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #264 on: December 19, 2009, 12:07:22 PM »
Oh, and if it's non-obvious, I'm absolutely sure that it's Axem Vs Gumshoe that decides this game, in that I'm sure that one is town and one is scum.

If they're both scum then town's been handed a terrible game, and if they're both town then Axem's vote for Gumshoe should have ended the game. This is especially obvious to me given that I know that means that two townies would have been voting for another townie, and with only Oddjob not given the chance to drop the scum hammer but two scum out there to do it the theory collapses, but I think this is true regardless, right? I can't see how scum don't get the chance to hammer in the situation of townAxem voting for townGumshoe. Either I'm town and it resolves as before, or I'm scum and... yeah, just refused to let the game end.

No, absolutely sure that we're looking at one townie and one scum of the two.

Margaret Houlihan

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #265 on: December 19, 2009, 01:49:19 PM »
I don't have a whole lot to add here, but I suppose I should post, if only to keep Haruhi from getting bored and molesting me.  For the record, Axem's arguments for Gumshoe as Gilgamesh's scumbuddy look good to me, even keeping in mind that Axem himself is the alternative, and his projections of this game's likely turnouts should give objective reason for a Gilgamesh lynch today over a Gumshoe or an Axem one.  I also don't find any flaws in Smithers's logic, and am now considering him effectively confirmed town.

There's no rush to end the day, I suppose, even if the lynch is already decided.  We're going to have less people working on the case tomorrow than we do today, so any analysis that can be done before that is helpful.

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #266 on: December 19, 2009, 02:01:40 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking that given that it took me long enough to reach a decision that Excal's gone to sleep that there's no harm in leaving the hammer until after he gets back.

Tohsaka Rin

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #267 on: December 19, 2009, 03:49:50 PM »
Back, but not a whole lot to say. I'll be around most of the day, though I have a couple errands to run later and the house needs some picking up.

Stance has not changed from last night.

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #268 on: December 19, 2009, 04:18:38 PM »
Assuming no one else does it in my place, I'm planning on dropping the hammer on Gilgamesh in about two hours.

Recent points reinforcing {Gilgamesh, Gumshoe, Guildenstern (/Whim technically)}: Axem has been reasonable all day and errors made strike me quite strongly as a townie who hasn't thought out the scum perspective fully. On the other side, Gumshoe's 'don't lynch me, you'll lose' and attached attitude is unhelpful at best.

Recent point reinforcing {Axem, Gilgamesh, Oddjob}: Oddjob's basic lack of input this day phase.

But even the latter is kind of balanced by similar errors to Axem that make me think townie. I'm about as sure as I'm going to get, anyhow.

Chiaki

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #269 on: December 19, 2009, 04:49:50 PM »
Oddjob's basic lack of input this day phase.
I'm bad at lylo. It's like a sudoku but with roleclaims. I'll let everyone else do the maths, then decide based on my scumhunting skills (taking the roleclaim logic into account of course).

Anyway, I think that Gilgamesh and Gumshoe are definitely on a scumteam together. So I'm cool with a Gilgamesh lynch.
I'd even vote it if Smither's hadn't announced intention.

Chiaki

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #270 on: December 19, 2009, 04:51:04 PM »
Oh, and if you want reasons why - Gilgamesh came out with his claim unusually strong, dropping a vote and calling Gumshoe a liar. It looks like an intentional sacrifice bus sort of thing. THat's what I think anyway.

Tohsaka Rin

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #271 on: December 19, 2009, 05:00:03 PM »
On the other side, Gumshoe's 'don't lynch me, you'll lose' and attached attitude is unhelpful at best.

To add to this, Gumshoe has made no effort whatsoever to explain why he did not wait for Gilgamesh to claim first as I discussed in 236.

I am also curious as to why Guildenstern thinks Gumshoe watching me Night 2 makes sense. Surely I was not a viable NK target with the way I played Day 2?

Maya Kumashiro

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #272 on: December 19, 2009, 05:35:58 PM »
Okay, here, looking over the arguments.

Axem, that's a decent point, I was fully expecting a Tony kill N2 myself.  Smithers would have been my #1 guess for a NK on Night 1, so at least I agree with Gumshoe there.  I don't think watching you on Night 2 was irrational or anything though, as would, say, watching me have been.  I thought you were town yesterday, at least (even if I'm changed my tune today).

May post more, and probably willing to hammer Gilgamesh myself if needed, mostly making a short post now since Smithers mentioned he was willing to hammer himself.

Bill Hellsnake

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #273 on: December 19, 2009, 05:59:07 PM »
Well, I'll basically leave it in your hands, then. I won't hammer in case you have something to say, in which case you should hammer after saying whatever you have to say or on deciding you don't actually have anything more to say.

Maya Kumashiro

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Re: Henchmen Anonymafia - Day 3 LYLO
« Reply #274 on: December 19, 2009, 06:01:08 PM »
Though of course, Axem, as noted before, for me, Scumshoe means that Gilgamesh is guilty anyway and we can hope for new evidence tomorrow (short of the Gumshoe-Whim-Godfather case). 

Also, Gumshoe should really be the one defending himself on this, but #236's arguments are...  I don't want to say wrong, it's a good point, but there are legitimately towny reasons to post your roleclaim "first" in such a case, too, so it's not a conclusive point.  Or Gumshoe might have just gotten impatient.  If you're around, detective, you probably should respond to this.

Ninja: Noted.  Okay, so anyone else have objections to hammering?  If you are viewing the thread, you have about 20 minutes to post a "hey, wait, stop!  I want to get a word in edgewise!"  (I don't see Excal around so no super big hurry).