Author Topic: DLC 5 tournament  (Read 23588 times)

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2009, 10:21:29 PM »
Smash is easier to understand than Dissidia.  I remember it took me all of one match to get the hang of the original game.  Its just understand that instead of "Reduce enemy health to 0", its "Knock person off the stage; more damage they take, easier this is" as the goal.

The other thing is with Smash, every character is exactly the same for beginners as it is for vets.  By which I mean, if you pick Mario, he will always have the same moves, physics, etc.  The existence of the moves never change, just how well someone can make use of them and knowledge about them, but they're still always there. 

Dissidia?  Not the case.  Quick example:

Lets take an easy to understand character like Terra.  They'll see her level 1 stuff, which is all pretty straightforward; a few projectiles, a melee move (which I believe is ground only at first), a defensive Aerial HP Attack and a sniping ground HP Attack.  Ok, that's fine...

Then we come into High level play.  I don't mean High Level in the sense of Experienced vs. Inexperienced, I mean literal High Level Dissidia characters, cause the game literally has levels.  Suddenly Terra adds moves like Holy (COmbo), aerial/ground variations of a few attacks she didn't have before, and Meteor, and some big killer strategies she didn't have before.  She'll also be facing characters with totally different moves that you can't really see, like say, low level Firion doesn't have Shield Bash, so you can attack him blindly, but higher level one will have that so yeah.

Arcade mode doesn't necessarily offset this problem either...and it hurts experienced players too.  I have some character set up a specific way, but whenever I go into arcade mode, I need to double check their skill lists to know exactly what THAT one can do and where.

That's another thing that may cause things to take longer.  While newbees will just go "Ok, I'll use Cecil cause I like him!", those who've played the game will actually check the characters and see just HOW Cecil is set up.  This mindset applies to Smash, but again, the only difference will be the person knowing that Link is capable of x, y, and z, while someone else will only know of x and y, though they'd always have access to z, just not know about it.

IOWs, Smash, like all fighting games, is just "Choose character, you get what you picked"; Ike is Ike is always Ike is never Marth.  Dissidia, a level 1 Squall is not the same as a level 50 Squall is not the same as a level 100 Squall (chose these 3 levels cause those are the 3 used for Arcade Mode purposes.)

Like I said, Dissidia just isn't tourney friendly unless everyone has a decent amount of experience at it.  Game is a lot less "Pick up and play" friendly than Smash.  I know at DLC4, I let a few people play the game on LOW difficulty, and they still had problems winning fights.  Its not that the game is hard, its that the game has an obvious learning curve; this curve is easy to overcome if you actually spend time with the game due to concise yet descriptive tutorials, but...yeah...

I think the best comparison I can make is that Dissidia is like SO3 Versus Mode, which you may remember was a pretty train wreck experience; no one, even people who played the game, had no real clue what they were doing.  Granted, you can at least check what characters HAVE in Dissidia, so its not quite as bad as going in blind ala SO3 Versus, but flipside, SO3 Versus was still "hit things, they die."  Dissidia, there's the "hit things, they get weaker, you get stronger!" attacks, and the "hit things, they die" attacks.  Someone might not grasp the Brave/HP system as well <_<
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Xeroma

  • SARDINES.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 924
  • Vampire
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2009, 10:31:20 PM »
4P Smash would spice things up considerably. I'd support it.

I also must stress that just because an FG isn't in the tourney doesn't mean it won't be at the con. If Djinn/Niu/Sop/Andy/whomever wanna play me in BB I'd be all for it, for instance.


<@SageAcrin> Where you realize that, when you think about everything that's said about this person...
<@SageAcrin> It adds up to one thing.
<+Ranmilia> MEGA MAN PLOT

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2009, 11:09:01 PM »
However, I am sick an tired of whiny shitheads on the internet bitching that Brawl isn't Melee.  It isn't, fucking get over it.

...Neither is Brawl+.  (In fact, arguably Melee is the Smash game that Brawl+ resembles the least).

If you really are worried about bad physics changes in B+, I can at least provide anecdotal evidence to the contrary.  A bunch of people noticed recently that level 9 CPUs are harder to beat in B+ than they are in Brawl.  (Which matches my experience--I actually lose to L9s in B+, pretty regularly).  Yet the AI hasn't been modified at all.  If the physics or moves had been screwed with in bad ways, I would expect the AI to get seriously confused.

Quote
changing characters' movesets, etc., in the name of making it more like Melee is fucking stupid and a waste of time.

And for the most part they don't.  For instance, Mario's Down-B is still the Fludd, and there were lots of idiot whiners who wanted that changed back to the Melee/64 move.  The one visible example I can think of that did change to be more like Melee/64 is that Jigglypuff's Rest hits like the old Rest (kills things, and doesn't add a flower).  But...the move is still Rest.  It's not like they gave Jigglypuff a different down-B.  It's still "hurt things, short range, put caster to sleep".



I dunno, I just get the vibe that your actual objection is "I AM GOING TO WHINE ABOUT THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE IN MY OPINION THEY ARE WHINERS."  This is a perfectly acceptable objection (Excal pointed out that anger towards the developers, deserved or not, could keep him from enjoying the hack).  I'm perfectly fine with people objecting to the hack for this reason.  What I'm not okay with is when people whine about what they assume a hack contains when that's...not actually what's in the hack.  I've seen this way too much with LFT.  Hell, I've seen it with FFT 1.3 in cases where 1.3 didn't deserve it.

Basically, I don't really care if we use B+ or not (I'm not even playing, and there are good objections like accessibility).  However I am kinda troubled by the misinformation that's getting thrown its way at it in this topic.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2009, 11:25:11 PM »
But I like the idea of 4 player Smash if we have to have it.
4P Smash would spice things up considerably. I'd support it.

4P smash has serious issues.  Like the following scenario: "everyone gang up on Zenthor or he's going to win".  4P stock is a particularly bad idea if only for time reasons because it encourages stalling tactics (the blatantly best strategy is to run away until there's only one person left--Alex demonstrated this nicely at DLC1 by dominating with a taunting Pichu).  4P time matches at least encourage you to fight, so those would be preferable.  (They put a high value on killstealing, but killstealing is a legitimate skill).  In a real tournament setting time matches still have serious abuse potential (your friend runs off the edge every time you hit him, giving you crazy points)--but this isn't a strategy I'd expect at a DL tournament, so that could work.

It is also worth noting that 2v2 teams is a functional and popular tourmament format in Smash.  This would involve pairing people off in teams, though--how would people feel about that?

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2009, 11:29:36 PM »
2v2 has one issue of that if every other Tourney is based around 1v1, it makes for some oddities.

It would be a nice alternative to the usual 1v1 setting.  I figured the idea of instituting time in some manner to 4P Smash was a given since that way, people not only are forced to fight (unlike 1v1 time, someone can't realistically camp so easily, since he's not trying to stay away from one person, but 3, a lot harder to do, and they WILL get caught), but the matches will always be x amount of time regardless, Sudden Death aside (which doesn't add too much.)  

Generally, the point is that just cause Tourneys are played in a specific way typically doesn't mean we have to do it that way, and we should adhere to whatever most people want.  For example, if most people want items on, we could turn them on (to whatever frequency); note I'm not saying "lets play with items!", its just an example of how to make things different.

Different scenarios like this make for keeping a game fresh.

Oh, yeah, I think its worth noting this:

At school, about 2 semesters ago, in our usual semesterly Smash Tourney, we did things differently. We did 4 way free for all, 3-4 stock (forget how much offhand), most stages on (a few were taken off, including all custom stages) and items on (I think they were set to Low), and the general consensus was outside of the elitist serious people who research tiers and are near "You Can't Have Fun" Guys level, most considered ti the most fun they've had at a Brawl Tournament ever. 

There were some items removed, like anything that'd make the match longer cause this was a huge tourney, so healing items, Invincibility stars, etc. were removed, but stuff like Ba-bombs, Smash Balls, Pokeballs, Assist Trophys, what have you, were kept on.  I know I had a blast at this tourney, and like I said, most of the people I talked to said it was the most fun they've had at a tourney.  So yeah, I'm thinking that this is a great example of how Tourney Style Play really is the worst way to approach Smash, from a "Have Fun" stand point; changing things up, even if just a little, would make people have more fun, which should be a factor in this FG Tournament.  After all, if having fun wasn't part of this, why would we:

A. Do it in the first place.
B. Rule out some atrocious game ideas like SNK vs. Capcom Chaos <_<?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 11:36:38 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Xeroma

  • SARDINES.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 924
  • Vampire
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2009, 11:34:07 PM »
2vs2 teams would be okay I think. How to handle pairing, I think we should ask about that first.


<@SageAcrin> Where you realize that, when you think about everything that's said about this person...
<@SageAcrin> It adds up to one thing.
<+Ranmilia> MEGA MAN PLOT

Cotigo

  • Jerkface
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4176
  • Yoo-hoo, Mr. Tentacle Guy...
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2009, 11:35:32 PM »
I dunno, I just get the vibe that your actual objection is "I AM GOING TO WHINE ABOUT THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE IN MY OPINION THEY ARE WHINERS."

Well, yeah, that was kind of the jist of it.

Hell, I'm not even planning on going to DLC5.  But, you know. 

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2009, 01:08:46 AM »
At school, about 2 semesters ago, in our usual semesterly Smash Tourney, we did things differently. We did 4 way free for all, 3-4 stock (forget how much offhand), most stages on (a few were taken off, including all custom stages) and items on (I think they were set to Low), and the general consensus was outside of the elitist serious people who research tiers and are near "You Can't Have Fun" Guys level, most considered ti the most fun they've had at a Brawl Tournament ever.  

Oh, I can definitely see why "items on, 4-way" would be fun for a change of pace.  There's a bit of a caveat, though: we tend to do that already for a good 10-20 hours every DL Con.  It's actually a change of pace to use a different format.

One other caveat, however, is that...no: the tournament is not 100% about fun for the players, but also focused on entertainment for the spectators.  The average tournament participant will be playing ~14% of the time even with two TVs (and there are always some non-participants).  So...this begs the question (and I don't know the answer)--is it more exciting to watch a 4-way item chaos than a clean 1v1 game?

I really, really don't know the answer to that.  I would hazard a guess at 1v1 (as I find it impossible to follow everything going on in a 4-way).  Items...might actually depend on the item.  Like, I think healing and invincibility items are pretty boring.  Explosives...well the big reason people don't like them is that you get the "I punched right as a bomb spawned" scenario; that's frustrating for the player...but potentially hilarious for an audience.  Well...either hilarious or confusing.  Guns...most of the guns are lock-down, which is just plain dull to watch.  Turtle Shells...okay, I can definitely see the argument for the occasional Turtle Shell making things more interesting to watch.

2vs2 teams would be okay I think. How to handle pairing, I think we should ask about that first.

Well...here's my big concern about teams: whenever we're coercing people into signing up for the tournament, we always get answers of "oh, I don't know: I'm not very good".  Thing is, we aren't worried about skill--we want everyone to give it a try and be entertained--there's no penalty for joining in and mashing buttons.  Add a team element, though, and all of the sudden people will start saying "oh, but if I join I'm just going to let my teammate down."

Now, we could let people choose their own teammates, which would mitigate the problem slightly--"be my teammate, I don't care and I'm also terrible."  ...Buuut it also has potential for "oh hey look, the two best players chose to be on each other's team.  How unfair is that?"

Random teammates would get rid of the "unfair" factor, but not help the psychological barrier at all.

A third option would be to seed things--sum up all the tournament points so far, and pair the highest and lowest scoring players.  This has potential, but it also has potential to seriously slow the tournament down... ... ...unless....... Unless I code a .php bracket script ahead of time, so that we keep track of the bracket by just clicking the name of the winner...which would keep a database up to date that would then calculate the teams and bracket the minute we're ready to move to the 2v2.  Hmmm....yeah, that wouldn't be too hard to script.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2009, 01:41:00 AM »
4 way is good, anything to make the Smash go away quicker.  Edit - And 4 player is the game at its least stupid as well.  Fuck I can't stand watching an hour of 2 people picking Meta Knight and Marth and running around like retards.

Also as you state, there is already 10-20 hours of the game played each con.  I really really don't see the need to subject people to another hour of it with nothing else to watch.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2009, 03:23:54 AM »
4 way is good, anything to make the Smash go away quicker.  Edit - And 4 player is the game at its least stupid as well.  Fuck I can't stand watching an hour of 2 people picking Meta Knight and Marth and running around like retards.

Well...if you want to avoid Marth/Meta Knight, the answer would be "don't pick Melee or Brawl"--widely agreed to be the two least balanced Smash games by a fairly wide margin >_>

Quote
Also as you state, there is already 10-20 hours of the game played each con.  I really really don't see the need to subject people to another hour of it with nothing else to watch.

Won't be an hour.  Estimations are running at like...25 minutes for most smash games, 35-40 minutes for Brawl.

The other question is whether 4-way makes things faster or slower, and if so by how much.  With a match timer, doesn't matter, you just set the timer.  With 2v2 3-stock...looking at Brawl to start with, since IIRC it's considered better for 2v2 than 1v1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZLZhd2JiI4
(Averaging about 3:30 per 3-stock round...but I don't know how much is saved by switching from 3 stock to 2 stock--might be more than 1/3 the time, might be less.  I'll just say 2:20).

So...a single match is actually faster than 1v1 for Brawl, and cutting the entrants in half puts projected time around...hmm..18 minutes?


That said, we should pick 2v2/4-way-time if we actually want 2v2/4-way-time.  If what we actually want is less Smash then it would make more sense to not run a smash game >_>.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 03:25:33 AM by metroid composite »

Hunter Sopko

  • Heavily in Debt
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4556
  • Hai, Kazuma-desu
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2009, 03:35:49 AM »
If we're cutting down on the amount of games being played in the tournament, I'm all for Smash being one of the ones cut. It was honestly the most boring part of the tourney at 4.

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2009, 03:36:11 AM »
ON the contrary, I'd think 4 way is more fun to watch cause of all the extra insanity added in.  For example...

Suppose we have Samus fire a charged shot at Meta Knight, Meta Knight dodges!  ...ok, that's boring, whatever, its generic...

But say we had Ganondorf standing behind MEta Knight, assuming he was going to get hit, and using him as a shield, but wait, Meta Knight dodged, Ganondorf gets hit by a shot intended for Meta Knight and goes flying!  He seems dead...but then suddenly Marth recovering from a previous attack manages to save Ganondorf COMPLETELY BY ACCIDENT in an attempt to save himself!

Yeah, that scenario isn't that silly, but you can see where I'm getting at; the unexpected factors raise dramatically in 4 way matches, and these are what raise the hilarity value.  Granted, the Crowning Moment of Hilarity in DL History for Smash was effectively 1v1 (the famous "FALCON *warning* PAWNCH! *car*" scene, obviously), but that was a precise scenario that is unlikely to be replicated as easily.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Nitori

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1091
  • The only thing YOU'RE onto is your mot-
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2009, 03:45:42 AM »
I'd prefer to have it go Smash/BB/MBAA/whatever (totally not biased towards trying to win)
<Ko-NitoriisSulpher> roll 1d100 to grade Nitori?
<Hatbot> ACTION --> "Ko-NitoriisSulpher rolls 1d100 to grade Nitori? and gets 100." [1d100=100]

Hunter Sopko

  • Heavily in Debt
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4556
  • Hai, Kazuma-desu
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2009, 03:49:15 AM »
When I said "At 4" I meant DLC4. Smash is awesome to play 4 player, but for a fighting game tournament, especially one that might be getting cut to three games? No. It just doesn't work.

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2009, 04:08:01 AM »
BlazBlue matches could be cut down from 'best of three rounds' to a single-round match if time is such an issue.

Ranmilia

  • Poetry Lover
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1687
  • Not a squid!!
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2009, 06:22:37 AM »
I think the core issue with a game tournament is maintaining interest.  Wasn't at DLC4, but for the DLC2 tournament... there were complaints about time, but a lot of those stemmed from two big problems - it started very late in the evening, and had several games that just didn't hold communal interest.  Seemed like folks got back into the swing of things for Smash, even though Smash came quite late in the event.  So...

- Games need to be chosen carefully and be things that are of interest to a lot of people and easy to pick up and play.  Nothing that you'd need to look at movelists for.  On the other hand, not necessarily fighters.  I think ease of entry is much more important than, say, match length - MBAA, for example, is a good choice because it has standardized movelists, everyone uses the same basic motions.  Smash of any sort is easy to get into and was by far the game with the most interest at DLC2.  Blazblue on the other hand, maybe not so much.

- The tournament needs to not dominate the con.  Maybe it could be spread out more, running one game at a time over the course of both days, or run in its own area while other things happen for people who aren't interested.  It's clear there's a sizeable crowd that just isn't very interested in a gaming tournament in general, and I think that's where a lot of the complaints about time come from.  Personally, I wouldn't mind a tournament running longer than the one at DLC2, if it started earlier in the day - but I like competitive gaming a lot more than the average DLer.



Xeroma

  • SARDINES.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 924
  • Vampire
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2009, 06:28:10 AM »
The spacing the tourney out over a few days idea sounds pretty good to me actually. Hm.


<@SageAcrin> Where you realize that, when you think about everything that's said about this person...
<@SageAcrin> It adds up to one thing.
<+Ranmilia> MEGA MAN PLOT

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2009, 06:46:17 AM »
If we're cutting down on the amount of games being played in the tournament, I'm all for Smash being one of the ones cut. It was honestly the most boring part of the tourney at 4.

For a different perspective...this is entirely anecdotal, but I personally find Brawl 1v1 not very exciting to watch (outside of Simna vs Mind matches) but I do enjoy watching 1v1 matches from the rest of the series.  In short, I don't agree with your logic when you claim "1v1 Brawl is boring to watch therefore 1v1 Smash is boring to watch."

Perhaps I'm not the most objective spectator, though, so let me see if I can give some logical evidence of "less exciting"....  Slower = less exciting.  Greater focus on defence = less exciting.  Infinite chaingrabs = less exciting (granted, won't matter for us).  Grabbing ledges on the way up from your up-B = less exciting (Guess I should explain this one.  Remember the DLC2 Melee finals where Elfboy fired a fully charged shot just as I used up-B to recover, but I was so far down that my head went under the charge shot?  Yeah, that tension wouldn't be there in the equivalent Brawl match as it doesn't let you pop above ledge height with your up-B).  And mix in the anecdotal evidence that people were excited watching Melee at DLC2.

EDIT: side note--not intending this as an attack on Brawl or anything--chaingrabs aside, this stuff is inherently neutral as far as fun goes.  Like...defence being more powerful than the rest of the series; that's a matter of preference for whether you find it more fun.  I was looking purely at "exciting to watch".

BlazBlue matches could be cut down from 'best of three rounds' to a single-round match if time is such an issue.

They could but...well same could be said of every other game in the tournament.  If we went down to best-of-one on everything, I'm sure we could fit four or five games.  A few things are sacrificed in doing this, though.  For starters, less time playing for everyone, more time consulting brackets and passing controllers.  Comebacks would be less frequent (although possibly more exciting when they do happen?)

- Games need to be chosen carefully and be things that are of interest to a lot of people and easy to pick up and play.  Nothing that you'd need to look at movelists for.

To be fair, I want to say that the game that appeared the most successful at DLC4 was Battle Fantasia.  While it was easy to pick up, it pretty badly fails your other requirements.

Quote
or run in its own area while other things happen for people who aren't interested.

...Personally, I wouldn't mind a tournament running longer than the one at DLC2, if it started earlier in the day - but I like competitive gaming a lot more than the average DLer.

I...don't want this to turn into "five ultra-competitive people sign up and play games in their hidden corner, while everyone else does other activities."  If you want to do additional competitive stuff while the DL is doing other things, you can, it happens all the time at most DLCs, but this also isn't something that calls for an event organizer and assistant organizers and planning topics.

EDIT: I think you're underselling the value it can have for less competitive people.  To paraphrase Ciato from DLC2 "the tournament was a fun change of pace, instead of everyone having a controller in their hand doing something different, two people had a controller in their hand, everyone was watching, and people were oohing and ahhing."  Ideally, that's what I want to reproduce at DLC5.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 07:01:29 AM by metroid composite »

Ranmilia

  • Poetry Lover
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1687
  • Not a squid!!
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2009, 07:16:36 AM »
Yeah, but Battle Fantasia's competition at DLC4 included the likes of Street Fighter 4 and Blazblue, which are very clearly worse, and Soul Calibur 4, which... sounds good on paper but in practice CK won it with no experience, to everyone's surprise, or so I hear.  I'm surprised to hear BF did better than Smash though.

For less competitive people... some of them find it fun, and some definitely don't.  A few folks have been vocally hating on it in IRC since this topic popped up.  Certainly it shouldn't be turned into a corner thing, but a "half the house" thing or similar sounds fine.  There should be something available for the people who legitimately aren't interested so no one feels forced into watching or participating.

Hunter Sopko

  • Heavily in Debt
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4556
  • Hai, Kazuma-desu
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2009, 08:38:53 AM »
mc, your whole argument is shattered by the fact that I really enjoyed BlazBlue the most out of all the games, which is the "slowest" if you go by match times, and features the other stuff you mentioned as well, though it didn't really come up unless two experienced people played each other. Also, I HATE Soul Calibur as a game, but I can understand and appreciate why it's in a fighting game tournament as we held it and I didn't mind watching as well, but thats more because of the way it was won. Go CK.

My point is, you can't really approach peoples' opinions with logic like that. It just doesn't work. Opinions are always subjective.

People aren't going to be into it just because it's there. That's not the way you sell people on a product. To be fair, I wasn't there, but based on your testimony I'm glad the tourney was such a big hit at DLC2, but that exact experience can't be reproduced every single time. Trying to recreate those exact conditions only leads to uncomfortable situations and a completely inorganic experience. It's best to tailor it to the people who are actually interested in the tournament, and let the rest take care of itself and not force people to take an interest.

Note: I actually really enjoyed the tourney at 4, but I'm a competitive person at heart, so...

Tide

  • Malice Tears
  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
  • Cacophony of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2009, 12:32:40 PM »
Brawl Stuff:

Re - Items
Quote
4-way item chaos than a clean 1v1 game
Based on my experience of recording Brawl matches and uploading them? The DL tends to cater towards item chaos more than 1v1 (see also Bumper wars). This includes even for the players generally. Watching a bumper hit a shell, hit a box, hit another shell and having something explode along the way where someone gets killed is generally more hilarious. Not to bash on anyone's skill, but most of are not going to top tourney level players. You cater 1v1 too much and things might get too technical to watch to the point where the enjoyment can be completely gone. Plus items are a good way to level the field for differing skill levels.

Re - Time/Teams
The easiest way (or most fair) would be to take a look at the past Smash tournaments (or last year's Brawl tourney) and rank each person as to how well they did and seed them like you mentioned. Something that I'm thinking of: You can insert a small restriction so that the top players can't be on the same team. Or if they decide to be on the same team, give the other team a handicap. I don't know how well it would work in practice, but in theory, it should allow everyone to choose their own teams while avoiding the danger or unbalanced teams (and hence a very dominating field).

For teams, you can also choose to turn on friendly fire! Why? I don't know. Because its funny Falcon Punching your own team mate. Also, Brawl stock matches allow you to set time limits. I've actually done this when playing against Glen. That way, you avoid stalling and can keep the matches going.
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

OblivionKnight

  • Boom! Big reveal: I'm a pickle. What do you think about that?
  • Global Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2999
  • I'm Pickle Rick!
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2009, 12:48:24 PM »
How about Brawl as a bonus match for the top 4 losers?  Or something.  4 player brawl, 3 lives, all items on, final destination, fox on...er...ignore those last two.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2009, 03:02:38 PM »
Just to chime in, I'd be seriously disappointed if I went to my first DLC and the fighting game tourney didn't have either Smash or SF, since those are about the only fighting games I actually seriously like. (SC's okay, but nothing special.) I'd prefer one of the newer Smash games, if only for familiarity, although B+ doesn't sound as bad as I figured it would. 2v2 sounds like awesome fun, especially with Friendly Fire, although pairings will be difficult. If nothing else, Hatbot it? I'd say to go with Tide's idea of using previous DLCs, but newcomers like me make that somewhat difficult. ;o
I'm... not keen on overkill items, but the decently balanced items make things more fun to both play and watch, methinks. By 'overkill items', I mean things like Dragoon, Poke Balls, Assists, etc - basically, anything that can effectively kill someone from 0% if you're lucky.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2009, 04:07:47 PM »
mc, your whole argument is shattered by the fact that I really enjoyed BlazBlue the most out of all the games, which is the "slowest" if you go by match times, and features the other stuff you mentioned as well

Umm...no, actually, it really doesn't at all.

The characters move plenty fast in Blazblue (I wasn't talking about match length).  Blazblue has short to medium combos that can't just be dodged out of.  The only silly infinite I'm aware of from Blazblue is with Carl (did anyone even use Carl?) and requires crazy setup with getting his puppet into position.

It's...pretty much the exact opposite of what I was talking about.  And yes, I very much enjoyed watching Blazblue.


For teams, you can also choose to turn on friendly fire! Why? I don't know. Because its funny Falcon Punching your own team mate.

Friendly fire on is the setting used in every 2v2 smash tournament I've seen.  With it, as you said, hilarious stuff happens.  Without it you get some really brutal "trapped in the middle" scenarios.

Just to chime in, I'd be seriously disappointed if I went to my first DLC and the fighting game tourney didn't have either Smash or SF, since those are about the only fighting games I actually seriously like.

Fair enough.  I don't want to drift too much into the obscure for precisely this reason.

Question, actually: would you count Marvel vs Capcom 2 as a Street Fighter game?  (I know some people do).

OblivionKnight

  • Boom! Big reveal: I'm a pickle. What do you think about that?
  • Global Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2999
  • I'm Pickle Rick!
    • View Profile
Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2009, 04:50:10 PM »
No.  I'd count it as an "awesomeness incarnate" game.  Not really in the same vein as Street Fighter - plays differently.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory