DLC 5 tournament

[Ranmilia]

Yeah, that was a general top 5 for me.  Obviously don't have more than one game of the same series. 

[Grefter]

We know who is running the tournament yes?

Fuck voting and fuck arguing.  Whoever is running it decide what to play.  Input is good, but lets ultimately leave it up to the person organising.

Edit - This is to say, ultimately we come up with some games.  People punch each other in the face in a game and we make fun of them for spazzing out.  I don't think we need to overanalyse this to try and pick the game from the series that will MAXIMISE ENJOYMENT.  As much as I love spreadsheets and graphs I don't want to try and quantify the fun people will have from specific games to pick the one for maximum enjoyment.  It just isn't a hard enough science or even theoretically compelling enough to give me a full on evil robot chubby.

[Hunter Sopko]

If we go Djinn's route...

1. Blazblue
2. Street Fighter 4
3. Tekken 6
4. TvC/MvC2. No preference.

I think another key is to make sure people get practice on games they're not familiar with. Xer was running Blazblue before the tournament to get people practice (as well as Andy bringing the PS3 version so we could play it at my house). Those that wanted to practice got to practice, those who did not did not and performed accordingly. (Granted, some people had to go back to the hotel.) Understandably, the level of competition for the game was actually higher than the other games save Smash, I think (IMO, if anyone wants to confirm/deny). This would help immensely with games like Tekken 6 where people need to know the game. You're never gonna be able to achieve a level playing field as long as people can practice beforehand if they want. I'm not a fighting game fan per say, and I mostly suck, but I want there to be a competition, not watered down play to make sure the field is level.

We're supposed to be playing for Olympic Gold here, not Special Olympic Gold.

[Grefter]

Yeah.  That is probably a good policy as well.  It doesn't matter THIS indepth what gets played, but it does matter that people who want to get a bit of practice in know what they are up against.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Sure, I'll steal Djinn's idea too.

1. Some form of Soul Calibur (Elfboy is a fan. We've yet to see SC1 or SC2 at a tourny.)
2. Smash 64/Melee/Brawl+ (we just did Brawl, don't care which of the others is picked)
3. Marvel vs. Capcom 2
4. Mario Kart of some flavour. Double Dash would be my pick, would also support any other non-portable version except 64, opposed to 64 + portables.
5. Melty Blood (popular and hasn't been in a tourny yet)

Strongly don't want to see:
-Blazblue


If it's not clear, my votes for SC/Smash/Puzzle I will throw behind whichever in the group I listed has the most support otherwise.

[Nitori]

1. Melty Blood AA
2. Smash of some sort I guess
3. Blazblue
4. Tetris Attack
5. Tekken 6

Strongly don't want to see anything I'd have to buy to access to right now~

[SageAcrin]

Sure, why not.

1. Smash of....whatever flavor isn't Brawl+, Met convinced me that 64 isn't a bad idea there by pointing out no one's played it in ages likely. It is the only true Smash game we haven't done, so there is that.
2. Tekken 6. Works as a nice fluff game in the same vein as SC4.
3. TvsC.
4. Uhhhh, I'd actually really like to see SSF2HD in, but this is partially because I'm a large SF2 fan. But, that isn't worse then Nitori's reasoning, so that.
5. uhhh sure Melty AA. That's going to end up unbalanced as a competition, but not hopelessly so, so...

[metroid composite]

Okay, so...let's boil down the

"assuming we are running a smash game, which one and which format"

First off, I've seen a lot of people speak up in favour of some kind of 4-way, and a lot of people speak up in favour of 2v2 in particular.  Even a number of the hardcore people seem to be calling for a few items as well.  (If someone's opposed to 2v2 with some items, speak up).

Now....as for which game, here's my own analysis:

Melee: no--one thing that nobody has mentioned yet: anyone who is used to Brawl airdodging is just plain going to suicide, which is anticlimactic and frustrating.  If we want a faster game, I'm actually thinking Melee might be the worst choice.

64: probably not--Similarly, when I went to test a few things about it earlier today, I found that I'm used to blocking with the R-button, whereas in 64 the R-button grabs.  This isn't fatal like it is in Melee, but could be annoying.  Sage also points out N64 supply could be short--I have one with two controllers, but we'd need two with eight controllers for two screens of 2v2.

Brawl: Works--People familiar to other smash games won't be that screwed up.  2v2 appears to play similarly across all smash games from what I've seen (unlike 1v1).  Slowest, but we're talking 14 minutes vs 18 minutes.  Brawl is the version with the highest number of familiar players.  While we did just play Brawl last year, we've never played 2v2, so I'm not feeling the "we're not mixing it up".

B+: Works--Same general points (easy to pick up coming from any smash game, particularly Brawl) except experience is lower (although as sage notes, potentially high for a small few).  Hypothetically more balanced, although I'm not sure how the balance changes in 2v2.  Slight style advantage (Wario beating coins out of people when he grabs them, etc).


So...the way I see it, gameplay reasons make me feel Melee's a bad idea, gameplay reasons and graphics reasons and equipment reasons make 64...doable, but I'm not looking forward to it.  On the objective game end 2v2 Brawl and 2v2 B+ seem to have a similar number of plusses and minuses from what I've played and watched of 2v2 Youtube videos.  However, add in outside DL factors like irrational hatred and equipment concerns (i.e. making sure we have enough modded Wiis) and I'm leaning towards Brawl.


Diagnosis (so far)

2v2, team damage on, Brawl

QUESTIONS:

2 Stock?  2:00 Time?
*Time has problems--sudden death is a really bad way to resolve 2v2, and 2:00 minute matches will often be tied.
*If we do stock, do we allow people to steal lives (if one person should die twice before their partner has died once?)  Seems like this is a potential for a sore point--"no, don't steal lives from me, you suck."  Really not an issue in tournaments where teammates tend to be similar skill, but when you don't choose your own teammate my gut reaction is to turn this option off to avoid potential drama.

Items: most people, including some fairly hardcore people, have spoken up in favour of these (on a relatively low setting).  Which ones?  So far I've heard:
YES:
* turtle shells
* bumpers
NO:
* healing
* massive death (Dragoon, Pokeball)

[metroid composite]

1. Some form of Soul Calibur (Elfboy is a fan. We've yet to see SC1 or SC2 at a tourny.)

Huh, weird, I remember DLC2 being Soul Calibur 2.  I guess it was SC3?

[SageAcrin]

No stars.

I'd...support 2 Stock on the grounds that it's what we did at DLC4 and it worked pretty well for 1v1, so why not 2v2.

Stealing stock...nnnnnnno on the grounds that someone might do it by accident, more then anything else. It'd be an unhappy mistake if that happened, one way or another, I suspect, if nothing else. Also it's more fun this way, as we could potentially end up with one really good player against two decent ones.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Since I suggested it, I suppose I should actually put out a preference list:

1. BlazBlue - It's really good for competitive play, and it's flashy. Also, it gets a new version soon, which might be available in the states come DLC5.
2. Melty Blood - I've never played this, but I'm honestly interested in it. I'm worried about the logistics of getting it played - does anyone own a system that can play it apart from a laptop?
3. MvC2 - I've played both this and TvC, and MvC2 was more intuitive. TvC -does- have G-Force characters for nostalgia value, though!
4. Smash Brawl - 2v2 sounds fun, though I'm really rusty at this. I consider myself a fan of hardcore competitive Smash, so my kneejerk is No Items, but Limited Items works too. If we could just cut down the numbers of explosive items, though... Bob-Ombs are okay, but I hate explosive capsules with a fiery passion. I'd also be okay with Smash+, just because I'd like to see what it's like, but that doesn't require it to be in the tournament.
5. Dissidia - Because I think it's nice to mix up the playstyles. One Smash-type fighter, one 2D fighter, one whatever-Dissidia-counts-as fighter. 3D fighters suck and you suck if you play them. (Not really) There's a few logistics issues with this one, but if they can be worked out, it'd be so freakin' cool. I'm probably the only one who thinks this way, though. >.>;;

Strongly don't want to see:
Puzzle games. They could be fun, but they aren't very exciting to watch.

[Xeroma]

MBAA is a PS2 game, so don't worry about it not being able to be supplied. I could even make a second burn and have it on Shale's PS2 as well if we need multiple stations for it.

[metroid composite]

MBAA is a PS2 game, so don't worry about it not being able to be supplied. I could even make a second burn and have it on Shale's PS2 as well if we need multiple stations for it.

We're going to want 2 stations for everything.  In retrospect, the most successful games at DLC2 were probably SF2 and Melee, both of which had two stations.  Two stations ensures there's something to watch, even when one match is waiting for character select or whatever.

I'm going to run a quick total of people's ordered top 5 so far.

[Luther Lansfeld]

1. Tekken
2. Melee
3. Marvel vs. Capcom 2
4. Double Dash
5. Melty Blood

Antivote: Blazblue.

For the record, I actually thought DLC2's fighting game tournament left more opportunity for a variety of people to have success because it felt like most of the people who had a great deal of success in the DLC4 one were people who own 360's, since the controller setup is different.  DLC2 featured more games for consoles that a wide variety of people own. I think this is a pretty important point because the more people who can potentially have some success the better to me.

[Excal]

1. Smash (not B+, otherwise don't care)
2. MvC2
3. Soul Calibur (Edge-4, not picky)
4. SMB3 vs.
5. Guilty Gear

Strongly Against: B+


As for items in Brawl, I suppose I should take a look at what's available, however, I'm totally up for the Vancouver Set being in play.

Pro
Melee Weapons
Pokeballs/Assist Trohpies
Smash Balls
Green Shells

Neutral
Franklin Badges
ranged weapons
Bumpers

Against
Healing
Starmen
Red Shells
Mushrooms, poison or otherwise

[metroid composite]

Okay, here's the quick totalling, ordered by category.

Puzzle Games
Puzzle Fighter (4, NO)
Tetris Attack (NO, 4, 4, NO)

Smash Games
Melee (5, 2, 2, 1, 2, 1)
Brawl (2, 2, 1, 4, 1)
Smash64 (2, 2, 1, 1)
Brawl+ (2, 2, NO)

Capcom Fighters
MvC2 (4, 3, 3, 3, 2)
SF2HD (3, 3)
TvC (4, 3)
SF4 (2)

3D Fighters
Tekken6 (3, 5, 2, 1)
SC1/2 (1, 3)

Other 2D fighters
Melty Blood (1, 5, 1, 5, 2, 5)
Blazblue (4, 1, NO, 3, 1, NO)
Guilty Gear (5)

Other...whatever it is
Dissidia (5)
Double-Dash (4)
SMB3 vs. (4)



Definitely in: Melty Blood (most-demanded), some form of smash (also most demanded)

Very likely out: Puzzle games, Dissidia, SF4, Guilty Gear (just...not seeing heavy support).

Maybes:
MvC2 (4, 3, 3, 3, 2)
Tekken6 (3, 5, 2, 1)
SF2HD (3, 3)
Blazblue (4, 1, NO, 3, 1, NO)
TvC (4, 3)
SC1/2 (1, 3)
SMB3 vs. (4) (Only has one support, but damnit 30 second matches, everyone knows it, surprisingly good for spectators; I'm not inclined to rule it out just yet).

I....what?  Please specify
Double Dash.
In particular, how would we play that like a fighting game?  What mode?  What setting?



Aaaand...the big surprises for me here are that Tekken 6 which we've barely talked about actually has a lot of demand, and that more people want Melee.  Let's put asside the "which smash" discussion for a bit...


Questions:
Assuming Melty Blood and some kind of Smash are in.  In this event is it better to have Tekken (for the 3D fighter) or MvC2 (for the whacky).  Or a third option that's getting attention (SF2, Blazblue, TvC, SC).

Tekken is a pretty short game, and 2v2 Smash frees up a lot of time.  It's possible we will have enough time for both Tekken and MvC2 within the budget (I will have to calculate).  Would people prefer running both matches with corners cut in each (2 stock for Tekken, time limit in MvC2) or would they rather run one of the games longer?

[Excal]

MC, I know you're excited about this, but Djinn's idea has only been up for about four hours.  Let's give it a day or two at least so that everyone has some time to look at it and post their list before making plans off of it.

I'd also agree with Grefter to some extent that we need to figure out who's running this.  Except that it's beginning to look like this will be MC's Math Assisted Tournament.  Should be an interesting sight to behold.

[Tide]

Oh speaking of skill gaps...something I wanted to mention although it feels very obvious...

Skill gaps are bad. They're not just bad for the players, they're bad for people watching. Outside of the winner doing some crazy stuff using really cool technical skills (see something like 2 double perfects in 3S), its not that fun to watch for spectators if one player is getting horribly massacred. That said, this puts certain things higher and lower on the list of games I personally want to see.

Don't have 5 myself, but I will note that the top 2 games I would want is 2v2 Brawl and MBAA or MBAC. 2v2 Brawl is a good change of pace, pretty fun to watch and skill gaps should not be so massive that one side will completely dominate the other. MBAC for what its worth is flashy and is pretty easy to pick up. The downside is that there are some technical things that might make spectators go "wait, what just happened". Still my top two choices though.

Re- brawl items:
Bumpers, Shells, Soccer Balls, Crates. You don't need anything else because these 4 items are hilarious. They also make for pretty short matches due to sheer destruction value. I wouldn't cry if one of them didn't make it. Definitely place bumpers as my top choice though, followed by Soccer Balls.

Items I am strongly against: Starman, Healing orb, food, Dragoon. Dragoon actually slows things down if Smash balls are in play and is a totally crapshoot item. Starman...unless you want to see people ledgehopping, its a pretty bad item as well. Healing orbs and food just slows the pace down even more and I seriously see no enjoyment value with these two items in play.

Recommended time/stock setting: 3 man stock match with 3 minute on times. 3 minute on time has the added bonus of being able to save replays as long as the match finishes within the alotted time. While turning the timer on has some advantages and disadvantages, I'm all for it since in general, it reduces the chances of turtling unless you really want a SD to occur. Too bad there's no way to turn off the SDs. You could find a separate way to tiebreak though.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Food items are actually one of my favourite items. While the heart and tomato are obviously brokenly powerful, food is weak enough that it creates an interesting debate of "should I go for this or not" and creates interesting little territorial fights without deciding the game.

I agree with all the other items Tide banned, though. Also suggest banning Bob-ombs because they are basically a free kill or threat thereof (and unlike the Smash Ball the closest player always gets it so it's all luck).

Also favour items on Very Low (Low? Whatever the lowest non-off setting is). They add a little spice, but if the rate is medium to high they can just turn games around them too much. That's fine for casual, fun play, but in the tournament, a higher emphasis on skill should be placed for those of us such as myself and Alex who do enjoy competition.

[Dhyerwolf]

1. Tekken 6
2. Marvel vs Capcom 2
3. Uh...I admit, my specific preferences at this point kind of narrow. Street Fighter 4.
4. Soul Calibur 1, I guess?
5. ...One Must Fall. Nostalgia purpose/this is a joke and I had no 5th preference.

I haven't played TvC or Melty Blood (and have no famaliarity with them), so I can't really put them on this list. Not a fan of Smash, but at least 2v2 means that I have a better chance of not autolosing, which is my specific problem with the game (None of the other games really have that problem). Noooooooooooo to Street Fighter 2. Super old game that has plenty of new variations/improvements that most people have played. Darkstalkers 3 or SFA3 would be a much more fun choice if we wanted a 2D Capcom Fighter.

[metroid composite]

Also favour items on Very Low (Low? Whatever the lowest non-off setting is). They add a little spice, but if the rate is medium to high they can just turn games around them too much. That's fine for casual, fun play, but in the tournament, a higher emphasis on skill should be placed for those of us such as myself and Alex who do enjoy competition.

I'm definitely in agreement here, especially on the point of "turn the games around them too much".  One of the things I like about well-done 1v1 smash is that you tend to see a lot of moves you might not see in a chaotic 4-way.  People messing with tilts and stuff.  But if you add in lots of items...well frankly items are just flat out better than your regular attack--a small number of items adds to character's repretoire by giving them the occasional super move (kinda) but if there's a large number of items...why would you use your regular attack at all?

[Excal]

Just curious, what do the acronyms MBAA and MBAC stand for?  I can't think of any fighting game I have ever heard of that they would work for.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Melty Blood.

I think that Double Dash on regular racing mode, maybe have 4 people in a race and send the top two on or something. Something besides fighting game is really what I desire, and Double Dash is fun and well-played.

[SageAcrin]

Melty Blood: Act Cadenza and Actress Again.

Tsukihime the fighting game, to put it another way, but any assumptions you're liable to get out of putting this way are...pretty wrong-whereas Tsukihime is dark, well written, a text adventure and, well, to put it bluntly, has occasional bad sex scenes, Melty is ridiculous, self-mocking humor with less fanservice then most fighting games and...actually I think it's story mode by Actress Again is still text adventure.

It doesn't even really spoil Tsukihime, as it's plot is based on the sixth plot string. There are five plot strings in Tsukihime. The sixth is due out in an expanded remake next year, I think? <_<

Also, some of it is from the Tsukihime spinoff, and some of it is unique to Melty, so even if you think someone would *appear* in Tsukihime you're probably wrong. (Yes I'm the only one that's actually worried about it spoiling Tsukihime, but.)

[Xeroma]

No, I try not to spoil it either and neither does Alex. >_>