Author Topic: DLC 5 tournament  (Read 23648 times)

Yakumo

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #200 on: December 17, 2009, 07:57:43 PM »
No, time is a horrible maximum because there is no way you can be sure exactly how much time you are going to need.  You can be exactly certain how many games you're playing, though.

You can look at videos and guess all you want but there's no way you can directly correlate those to how it's going to play out at the con.  Trying to judge by time is very likely to end up with a tournament either way shorter or way longer than you expect and I have no idea which.  Judging by number of games and making the tournament the last scheduled group thing each day so that if you're wrong about time it isn't going to cause any problems makes more sense to me.

SageAcrin

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #201 on: December 18, 2009, 12:19:03 AM »
It would be more useful as a theoretical thing if you actually can easily tell match length of a casual play/blowout easily but you really cannot.

Immaterial and Missing Power runs literally over 10 minutes long for full matches on high end play. Low end tends to manage about 4. Marvel vs Capcom tends to cut the opposite way, as hitting successfully once can mean death from full life...if you know the combos.

I don't really object to the concept, but unless it's a game people have enough experience with to say stuff about, it's going to be unfeasible.

For my guesses based on knowing some of the basic mechanics, Tekken and Melty end up about what you'd expect of high end play for time, on the low end. Street Fighter ends up shorter. (The large boosts of damage from combos tend to be balanced out by the fact that low end players won't zone the same way as high end.)

MvsC2 and TvsC end up notably longer, there's no real zoning element so there will simply be much more back and forth in standard play of them due to the lack of killing combo knowledge. In fact, swapping characters allows for fairly huge amounts of healing in MvsC2, but tournament level players often kill before this fully goes off. Casual players do not. I wouldn't be stunned if MvsC2 took twice as long, if not longer, if both sides grasp the basic concept of "Swap at low health". (And...thinking on it this is backed up by what I've seen of low end players screwing around.)

TvsC is less so, two characters instead of three, but we're not talking about fast stuff here either.

2vs2 Brawl...you know I was going to say this ends up longer, but thinking back to the elements that make Brawl long...perhaps not. The slow paced dodging and maneuvering for position flies out the window somewhat when anywhere you dodge could have a smash from a second person intersecting it. Hmmmm. Well, hard to say.

Tetris Attack and SPF2T both will be shorter with good players. Especially Tetris Attack. Unless both sides are good, then Tetris Attack can run into three+ minutes a round, but then again people will love seeing that if it occurs and it'll occur relatively little, so.

Anyways, the point is that these are estimates, though; I most certainly can't give exact numbers because they are going to be hard to give without researching, and to research you'd basically have to find matches of people who are clearly not at all knowledgeable on the game, matches of them vs people who are somewhat knowledgeable, and so forth.

But while it sounds good in theory to math out the time, chances are it's going to end up wrong with large gaps between games if you try to strictly adhere to a plan like that, as near as I can tell.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #202 on: December 18, 2009, 02:19:47 PM »
Quote
No, time is a horrible maximum because there is no way you can be sure exactly how much time you are going to need.  You can be exactly certain how many games you're playing, though.

Well, of course time will only be an estimate, and reality could be longer or shorter than the estimate.

I do agree, however, that placing a maximum on your estimated time makes a lot more sense than placing a maximum on number of games. Two games that take an estimated 1 hour are equivalent to one game that takes an estimated 2 hours, here.

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metroid composite

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #203 on: December 19, 2009, 12:52:16 AM »
No, time is a horrible maximum because there is no way you can be sure exactly how much time you are going to need.  You can be exactly certain how many games you're playing, though.

Both methods tell you exactly how many games you're playing long before DLC.

One method also puts controls on tournament length (useful).
The other...has hypothetical uses (it would be good if we had exactly five prizes to give out, for example) but I don't see an advantage in our context.

Cmdr_King

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #204 on: December 19, 2009, 04:08:52 AM »
Actually, adding more games will in all likelihood always make the tournament longer.  Taking one slot as the same regardless (Smash), even if you found four games that have the same match length as two other games, running four games would take considerably longer.  The match organizer has more brackets to calculate.  There's more time in between games, during which the need to reassemble the DL will likely arise.  If you're running multiple games at once, running mroe games creates many more chances for a conflict in scheduling, resulting in yet more confusion and wasted time.  Barring a game with match times over about 10 mintues, running fewer games is pretty well bound to be faster and more efficent.

That said, if Andy (or whoever) really wants to run five games and feels up to the added sheparding duties therein, more power to him, just keep in mind that sheer match length is not the only time-eating aspect of the tourney.
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metroid composite

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #205 on: December 19, 2009, 06:40:24 AM »
even if you found four games that have the same match length as two other games, running four games would take considerably longer.

Well yes.  Double the match length =/= double the tournament duration of the game.  Already been calculating with that in mind.

Quote
adding more games will in all likelihood always make the tournament longer.

If I'm understanding your claim correctly, what you're saying is "if N > M, then running N games will always take longer than running M games, regardless of what the games are".

As it happens, evidence earlier in this topic already proves that claim incorrect:

And of course, I loathe BlazBlue with a passion even before considering it was way too long for a fighting tournament. We finished two other games while it was going on!

And that's 2 games finishing faster than 1 game.  If we're talking 4 games vs 3 games, yeah it's really not a huge stretch to suggest that a group of 4 fast games would finish faster than a group of 3 slow games.

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #206 on: December 19, 2009, 06:48:17 AM »
I seem to recall that we got several matches through... was it Soul Calibur?  Before anyone suggested breaking off to do BlazBlue at the same time (I don't suppose Gate or Xer remember better?).  As well, because BlazBlue was downstairs it caught the worst of the "witing for matches to start" delay; I watched most of the BlazBlue stuff and distinctly remember a minute or two of delay before basically every single match.
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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #207 on: December 19, 2009, 10:26:16 AM »
Yeah. We got a few matches (3-4) into Street Fighter 4 before BlazBlue got started up and it ended around when the prelims for Soul Cal ended, maybe a match into the quarterfinals. So it did take longer than the other games, but not by that much. Both groups suffered from people not being around for their matches, but downstairs was worse for whatever reason.

You'll never hear me discourage adequate scheduling, but if we're honestly trying to budget it down to the minute then there's something wrong. Stuff like that is easy to screw up and hard to adjust for if there's stuff planned around it. I highly doubt this would be the case for a DLCon, because... we rarely have that many things we actually need scheduled time for, but just saying this might be slightly overkill.

metroid composite

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #208 on: December 19, 2009, 02:54:50 PM »
Yeah. We got a few matches (3-4) into Street Fighter 4 before BlazBlue got started up and it ended around when the prelims for Soul Cal ended, maybe a match into the quarterfinals.

Huh, I'm confused now.  I missed the Soul Cal finals which means that I was downstairs at the time.

Quote
You'll never hear me discourage adequate scheduling, but if we're honestly trying to budget it down to the minute then there's something wrong.

We're budgeting the tournament as a whole to-the-hour or to-the-half-hour, with the understanding that we might be wrong, just a desire to keep the length sensible this year.  When I suggest lengths like "25 minutes for this game, 35 minutes for this game" it's more to say the second game is longer than the first, and will probably take 30% more running time.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 03:01:16 PM by metroid composite »

SageAcrin

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #209 on: December 19, 2009, 09:07:14 PM »
My recollection was that there was massive amounts of bad luck involved with trying to get people from SF4/SC4 to actually get to play BB-lots of times people were up downstairs where they were in a game up.

Admittedly I wasn't that interested in BB. SF4 and Soulcal are more entertaining games to me at the level we as a group play at.

Now admittedly BB had to be longer then both, no reasonable amount of Hatbot luck can explain it totally away, but I do recall that much. Can't recall the details, but I want to say that BB ran into the middle of the two sets, with three or four SF4 games going first and the Soulcal finals coming after.

Then again, I dunno, I was playing Soulcal so I don't recall anything too specifically there.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 09:10:23 PM by SageAcrin »
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Hunter Sopko

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #210 on: December 19, 2009, 09:27:30 PM »
I was in the last BB match, the 3rd/4th place match with Djinn, and I was able to go upstairs to watch CK fight 3 times, so it had to finish sometime during the quarterfinals.

EDIT: People DID keep playing it after the tourney was over, so that might be the cause of confusion here.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 09:30:20 PM by Hunter Sopko »

AndrewRogue

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #211 on: December 29, 2009, 08:50:50 PM »
All I know is I was one of the people who kept getting called upstairs and downstairs simultaneously. >_>

Hunter Sopko

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #212 on: December 29, 2009, 09:13:31 PM »
Thats because you kept doing this thing called winning.

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #213 on: May 04, 2010, 11:40:14 PM »
I figure I should mention, as I`m going to be busy moving and adjusting to a new job shortly before the con, I`m thinking I`m not the person to run this one.

Grefter

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #214 on: May 05, 2010, 08:19:13 AM »
Typical woman, planning everything and then changing your mind.

Edit - This is a joke.

Edit 2 - Because I know women don't have a sense of humor.
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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #215 on: May 05, 2010, 04:39:33 PM »
I will be running things unless someone else wants to.

First of all, what systems will be available at DLC5?

Second of all, do people want to play Brawl or Melee (or something else that you will have to provide)?
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VySaika

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #216 on: May 05, 2010, 04:45:02 PM »
I have PS3, Wii and 360, and can lug any and all of them over to the house.

I'd prefer Brawl over Melee.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #217 on: May 05, 2010, 04:49:21 PM »
My idea is to have representation from a variety of generations. I felt like the last tournament was too next-gen focussed so I would like to integrate some PS2/whatever other system stuff into the tournament.
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VySaika

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #218 on: May 05, 2010, 05:13:52 PM »
My PS3 is a 60gig, so it will run PS2 games just fine~
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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #219 on: May 05, 2010, 06:08:13 PM »
Variety of Gens? In that case, I suggest determining Brawl vs. Melee based on what other games we're using.

Though, since I suggest doing MvC2 (big fighting game that has never been seen at a DLC, I know it gets some bad rep here, but it really would be good as something to change things up a bit; the usual flaws of the game don't really apply to the level of play most of the DL has), that'd cover Last Gen well enough, so Brawl could just work for the current Gen as a result.  I do recommend that we at least spice things up in Brawl by doing something like Limited Items, or possibly Team Matches.
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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #220 on: May 05, 2010, 06:50:48 PM »
Andrew and I have a Wii, a PS3 (old 80GB), and a PS2 slim. We're willing to bring them (or just the controllers) if needed!
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #221 on: May 05, 2010, 08:42:55 PM »
MvC2 I've heard is hilarious but unbalanced. Would anyone OBJECT to MvC2, and for what reasons?

Also, what GG games would be good for this, if any?

ALSO, how many games would people want to be in?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 09:10:46 PM by Ciato »
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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #222 on: May 05, 2010, 09:17:45 PM »
Edit 2 - Because I know women don't have a sense of humor.

I have a sense of humor...just only when I'm the one telling the joke.

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #223 on: May 05, 2010, 10:25:59 PM »
I'd prefer three games, and MVC2 is fine as one. I don't have that, though, so someone else will need to bring it.

Items and/or teams sound good to me for Brawlz as well.

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Grefter

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Re: DLC 5 tournament
« Reply #224 on: May 05, 2010, 10:42:56 PM »
MvC2 is fine for tournament, ban Cable for obvious reasons and you are all good (Other stuff is broken, but Cable is broken in a press one button, instant win kind of way).  It is available for download on tons of online stores, so with the number of PS3s and X-Boxes we have available I would guess we can get it running on something regardless of what another machine might be used for.
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