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Author Topic: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses  (Read 60949 times)

SnowFire

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #400 on: February 06, 2011, 12:30:10 AM »
Bolshevism also buys into the whole "we should make the bad guys EXTRA BAD and encourage their badness because the people will revolt faster!!!1!" which, if seriously adopted, is a terrible idea (i.e. hope Hoover gets re-elected so that there's a communist revolution in 1935 rather than a social safety net and mixed capitalism).  There are some instances of this working but in general when a state turns bad, things just get worse.  So yeah.  Not really buying that.

I will say that non-violent revolution works best when the state is somewhat rational / nice - which is why bad states trying to reform are almost always at their most vulnerable.  This is why it worked in say India 1948 or the civil rights movement in the US - England was not going to burn India to the ground to keep it, they'd rather just let it go.  But it doesn't really work in say Syria where the government will just shoot anyone who opposes it, and has done so several times.  Non-violence worked in South Africa, but only by the time the Western powers had mellowed out such that the harsh measures to keep blacks "pacified" would no longer have flied and made it a pariah like Rhodesia.

(The point is that I think non-violence can work fine for real change in Egypt just as in Tunisia, neither government of which is totally insane and murderous.)

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #401 on: February 06, 2011, 12:46:34 AM »
Bolshevism also buys into the whole "we should make the bad guys EXTRA BAD and encourage their badness because the people will revolt faster!!!1!" which, if seriously adopted, is a terrible idea (i.e. hope Hoover gets re-elected so that there's a communist revolution in 1935 rather than a social safety net and mixed capitalism).  There are some instances of this working but in general when a state turns bad, things just get worse.  So yeah.  Not really buying that.


Hey you just described how the right wing of Brazil's politics winged the coup instating military dictatorship in 1964.
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Grefter

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #402 on: February 06, 2011, 01:30:40 AM »
Not supporting it, Bolshevism is insanely extreme.  Just noting that there is movements out there that embrace these things.  It isn't terribly suprising to see it spring up and it isn't necessarilly just the Government playing shit here.
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #403 on: February 08, 2011, 06:05:38 PM »
Bolshevism also buys into the whole "we should make the bad guys EXTRA BAD and encourage their badness because the people will revolt faster!!!1!" which, if seriously adopted, is a terrible idea (i.e. hope Hoover gets re-elected so that there's a communist revolution in 1935 rather than a social safety net and mixed capitalism).

Yeah, living in San Francisco, I know I overheard bus conversations where people were openly hoping that Mike Huckabee would beat John McCain in the primaries, just so that the opposition looked crazier making a democrat victory more likely.  (I imagine they were quite pleased with the choice of Sarah Palin).

American politics makes me sad.  Too many people don't actually want choices.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #404 on: February 08, 2011, 08:19:03 PM »
Bolshevism also buys into the whole "we should make the bad guys EXTRA BAD and encourage their badness because the people will revolt faster!!!1!" which, if seriously adopted, is a terrible idea (i.e. hope Hoover gets re-elected so that there's a communist revolution in 1935 rather than a social safety net and mixed capitalism).

Yeah, living in San Francisco, I know I overheard bus conversations where people were openly hoping that Mike Huckabee would beat John McCain in the primaries, just so that the opposition looked crazier making a democrat victory more likely.  (I imagine they were quite pleased with the choice of Sarah Palin).

American politics makes me sad.  Too many people don't actually want choices.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the Republicans intentionally threw the election to avoid the coming heat from the economy.

Grefter

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #405 on: February 08, 2011, 09:50:39 PM »
That would mean some people decided it was a good idea to throw John McCain under a bus, which is a little disappointing, but I guess it would fit the direction the party has been going.
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #406 on: February 08, 2011, 09:56:45 PM »
John McCain willingly picked Sarah Palin as his running mate. He deserves to be tossed under the bus.
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #407 on: February 08, 2011, 10:55:23 PM »
John McCain willingly picked Sarah Palin as his running mate.

That's...not the way I heard it.  McCain wanted Joe Lieberman as his running mate.  The GOP base was not energized over McCain, however, so leaders in the GOP started pressuring for someone far-right to rally the voterbase.  Meanwhile, a group of conservative bloggers had discovered Sarah Palin a few months back (far right on every issue) and started rallying behind her.  By most reports, McCain didn't get much choice in the issue; the GOP pressured him into taking Palin.

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #408 on: February 08, 2011, 11:07:49 PM »
I always just assumed it was a ploy to get women voters to say "SEE, IF YOU VOTE FOR THIS GUY YOU CAN GET A WOMAN INTO THE WHITE HOUSE!"

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #409 on: February 09, 2011, 05:31:21 AM »
Well.  It was both.  McCain definitely wanted to pick Lieberman - there's no question Lieberman was seriously considered on the short list, and McCain came out with a campaign slogan of "Country First" around that time.  This makes a lot of sense if you're picking a Democrat as your running mate - "we need to work together and put the country first" blah blah and help paint Obama as more extreme.  Around the same time, the hardcore pro-life people freaked out and strongly strongly vetoed the idea with threats to run a third party candidate.  So yeah, it's not really McCain's fault that Lieberman wasn't picked, that was the religious right scotching the idea.  (Although if he REALLY wanted to be a maverick and go down guns blazing, he coulda done it anyway.  Probably would have cost him the hardcore right and lost him votes in the end, but hey, price of maverickness.)

What McCain does deserve blame for is picking Palin after all.  Palin was described to him as a "high risk, high reward" candidate to, uh, John McCain.  At a time when he was definitely not favored to win so you might as well take gambles.  I actually was familiar with Palin from earlier as a political junkie, and let me say that on paper, she looked great.  Vaguely libertarianish views, high popularity ratings, hot for a politician (it matters)...  if Palin was the exact same "type" but with any brains, she'd have been a great pick.  She didn't even have to be a genius, but just a generic "vaguely know politics" type who can passably recite editorials from the National Review and understand sorta why, it'd have been fine.  THIS IS WHY YOU VETTE EVERYONE ON THE LONG LIST.  Even the people you think are longshots and almost certainly won't be picked.  Assume that top picks 1-10 all have to bow out for some reason.  But yeah, basically they only seriously looked at Palin over the course of like three days, and somehow she aced the interview by the McCain handler.  Which is again why you have more time and you vette more seriously.  I mean, I can't blame McCain for the pick with the information he had; governor is not dogcatcher, you really expect that governors are vaguely up on, uh, politics, being politicians and all.  I do entirely blame him for not doing the research, and this is a bad trait to have for a president.

NotMiki

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #410 on: February 09, 2011, 06:00:42 AM »
What's good politics and good country-runnin' are two very different things.

Anyway, what's this with saying he didn't "willingly" pick his runningmate?  Presidents of the USA need to be accountable for their choices.  If they can be "forced" to do things that should be within their discretion, they don't meet the job description.
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Grefter

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #411 on: February 09, 2011, 08:27:49 AM »
I am not even dignifying that with a joke about Cheney.
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #412 on: February 10, 2011, 09:28:11 PM »
So with everyone looking at the military response in Cairo, taking careful not that this has been going on for a few weeks for now and while intimidating the Military has not been directly offensive of the Egyptian people.  I want everyone to remember that this is a country that the leaders are claiming "Is not ready for Democracy".

Now lets examine what a Democracy did in cases of opposition.  Edit - Of course Democratic Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Park  I would like to dig up old news articles directly, but it is to early in the morning for it.

This is an incident revolving around protests about a dispute of university funds for land appropriated for eminent domain that had the plans for changed consistently.  Students and the community wanted to create a park, the University had wanted to build a parking lot and a sports field.  So what was the the government response?  Well of course Ronald Reagan as governor sent in troops with bayonets.

Quote
Governor Reagan declared a state of emergency in Berkeley and sent in 2,700 National Guard troops — ironically some Guardsmen were students called to active duty.[12] The Berkeley City Council voted 8–1 against the decision to occupy their city,[20][22] however this vote was ignored. For two weeks the streets of Berkeley were barricaded with rolls of barbed wire, and freedom of assembly was denied as National Guardsmen sent tear gas canisters skittling along the street toward any group of more than two people together. ."[17] On Wednesday, 21 May 1969, a midday memorial was held for student James Rector at Sproul Plaza on the university campus. Rector had suffered massive internal injuries from his shotgun wounds, finally dying at Herrick Hospital on May 19. In his honor, several thousand people peacefully assembled to listen to speakers remembering his life. Without warning, National Guard troops surrounded Sproul Plaza, donned their gas masks, and pointed their bayonets inward, while helicopters dropped CS gas directly on the trapped crowd. No escape was possible, and the gas caused acute respiratory distress, disorientation, temporary blindness and vomiting. Many people, including children and the elderly, were injured during the ensuing panic. The gas was so intense that breezes carried it into Cowell Memorial Hospital, endangering patients, interrupting operations and incapacitating nurses. Students at nearby Jefferson and Franklin elementary schools were also affected.[18][20]

Best president evar!

Edit 2 - So yeah got distracted with my bile there.  What I mean to say is this.  Clearly from the fairly restrained military response we have seen so far in Egypt there is a lot of hope for the country yet anyway.  Western countries have been "civilised" for much longer with much more direct military intervention internally with some frequency for a good 50+ years.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 09:33:06 PM by Grefter »
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #413 on: February 11, 2011, 07:18:40 PM »
So anyway apologies for the "biased" sources but seeing as how they were the ones being targeted, feels more pertinent.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/10/lobbyists-chamberleaks/
ThinkProgress discovers attempt on its credibility and the credibility of other groups through the Anonymous attack on HBGary.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/02/11/campaigns/index.html
Glenn comments on the issues as well.

For background, http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/02/how-one-security-firm-tracked-anonymousand-paid-a-heavy-price.ars
The whole stupid drama that lead to the emails being released.

On a personal level? If government/conservative forces are resorting to trying to discredit opposing views instead of trying to maintain a moral/reason-based debate, it only makes me even more inclined to go against them, period.

EDIT: Eisenhower quote.

"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

EDIT 2: http://www.salon.com/about/inside_salon/2011/02/11/threats_against_glenn_greenwald_wikileaks <-- sources where some of this is coming from better. Something Greenwald does need to work on despite my generally good opinion on the rest of his stances.

EDIT 3: Also if you missed it Mubarak resigned, Suleiman who isn't much better is now in power, the people are apparently still in the streets though they're cheering for having gotten asshole one out, beautiful to watch one country's voice of the people do something whereas in another they're attempting to squish it pretty hard.

Oh wait there's a shoe over my head.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 07:47:33 PM by Taitoro »

SnowFire

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #414 on: February 12, 2011, 06:37:45 PM »
I was thinking of posting the Chamber of Commerce stupidity link myself.  I've had 0 respect for them for some time (I thought for the longest time they were an official group from the name but nope), and yeah, they don't seem to understand that lobbyist != Richard Nixon's CREEP.  I rather doubt that anything criminal will be able to be proven - they can always say they didn't know what the group they hired was up to, and infiltration / creation of false documents is not exactly illegal even if unethical - but I seriously hope this ruins their reputation.  I doubt it though, since I'm not seeing much attention from the mainstream media, which is depressing.

EDIT 3: Also if you missed it Mubarak resigned, Suleiman who isn't much better is now in power, the people are apparently still in the streets though they're cheering for having gotten asshole one out, beautiful to watch one country's voice of the people do something whereas in another they're attempting to squish it pretty hard.

Oh wait there's a shoe over my head.

To put on my serious cap for a moment, I will take the bait and throw that shoe at you George W. Bush style for this though.  On one hand, I despise the argument sometimes raised of "oh look things are so much worse in the 3rd world so why don't you just shut up and stop whining about minor American foibiles," as if America was perfect and there's no room to improve.  So I totally agree that the CoC's actions are shameful and I hope they disband.  That said to imply that quasi-legal deception campaigns are worse than government agents in the streets beating people up?  If Egypt's problems after this are anywhere close to the kind of tactics that Nixon would use, that'd be amazing.  There's a big difference between the squish in Egypt or Yemen and the "squish" here.

ANYWAY.  To add a link of my own in:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/12/world/europe/12zemmour.html

Xenophobic French asshole academic calls for freedoms of immigrants to be clamped down on, is arrested and now defends himself on free speech grounds.  Uh.  Fail on all sides here, France.  Don't make the freaking nutcase a martyr who gets to go into court to argue about how his claims that most crime is committed by immigrants is actually true (which it is...  because people like him help tank the job market for people of the wrong skin tone) so how dare the government arrest the honest truth-teller.

Pyro

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #415 on: February 12, 2011, 07:54:53 PM »
Quote
and infiltration / creation of false documents is not exactly illegal even if unethical
Forging documents is not legal.

Quote

Xenophobic French asshole academic calls for freedoms of immigrants to be clamped down on, is arrested and now defends himself on free speech grounds.  Uh.  Fail on all sides here, France.  Don't make the freaking nutcase a martyr who gets to go into court to argue about how his claims that most crime is committed by immigrants is actually true (which it is...  because people like him help tank the job market for people of the wrong skin tone) so how dare the government arrest the honest truth-teller.

Europe's trend towards "Clamp down on free speech that criticizes certain groups" is a horrible thing. Regardless of whether what someone says is true or not as long as it is not outright calling for violence it should be allowed. And hell, even advocating violence is allowed in the US as long as there is no reasonable expectation of harm. "Hate speech" laws should not be tolerated under any circumstances in a free society. Where does it end? Are people who advocate for not allowing immigrants from certain countries due to cultural differences/clashes supposed to be charged and imprisoned for arguing a certain viewpoint? This is one thing I am proud America has kept it's nose out of (for all that civil liberties have suffered in the last decade)

NotMiki

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #416 on: February 13, 2011, 06:30:44 AM »
Europe's trend towards "Clamp down on free speech that criticizes certain groups" is a horrible thing. Regardless of whether what someone says is true or not as long as it is not outright calling for violence it should be allowed. And hell, even advocating violence is allowed in the US as long as there is no reasonable expectation of harm. "Hate speech" laws should not be tolerated under any circumstances in a free society. Where does it end? Are people who advocate for not allowing immigrants from certain countries due to cultural differences/clashes supposed to be charged and imprisoned for arguing a certain viewpoint? This is one thing I am proud America has kept it's nose out of (for all that civil liberties have suffered in the last decade)

I agree wholeheartedly.  America gets a lot wrong, but our speech laws and our willingness to air out our grievances in the arena of public opinion are exemplary.  It's almost hilarious how French this situation is.  So stereotypically assimilationist.

Quote
“I’m for saying everything,” Mr. Sabeg said. “But not nonsense like this.”

This line is so picture perfect it makes me almost think the whole article was made up.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 06:33:45 AM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #417 on: February 13, 2011, 10:13:28 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0AQ5TjsEIM&feature=feedu

Apparently when the incoming GOP rules committee or whomever decided that each introduced piece of legislature cite the Constitution they meant that it had to say "un/constitutional" in it.

Rep. Weiner earned my admiration with his (admittedly grandstanding) ranting after the 9/11 First Responders bill got stalled the first time.  With this, he makes me legitimately happy that he's in Congress.

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #418 on: February 13, 2011, 04:58:07 PM »
He's also one of Jon Stewart's best friends.

Weiner for President? Can't beat a campaign slogan like "I Like Weiner!"

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #419 on: February 13, 2011, 09:34:38 PM »
Bringing the Weiner back to the Whitehouse like JFK did.
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #420 on: February 14, 2011, 03:59:37 PM »
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/fjfby/iama_director_of_an_isp_who_was_the_first_person/c1ghr1p

Interesting comment, would not mind legal scholar elaboration/declamation on this. If it's true, how often does it happen?

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #421 on: February 14, 2011, 07:41:22 PM »
Not sure exactly what you're asking.  If the question is, "how often does the government stop doing something when threatened with a lawsuit to avoid a determination in court of the government practice's legality" the answer is, all the time.  Does that mean that people willing and able to legally challenge the government are more likely to get the government to stop doing whatever it is the government is doing to them?  Absolutely.  Is that cynical and unseemly?  Yes, but it's a reality of USA's legal structure.  Congress passes laws, but the courts decide whether those laws are valid, and how those laws apply to specific factual situations.  That means there's always a measure of uncertainty about a law's validity.  To put it another way, Schroedinger's Law only becomes constitutional or unconstitutional when the courts "see" it.

When Lawrence v. Texas came up to the SC, gay rights activists were despondent, because they thought there was no way they were going to win.  Well, they did win, and their win meant that laws banning same-sex sodomy would be declared unconstitutional.  A loss would have meant that states would know for certain that sodomy laws that discriminated against homosexuals were constitutional, and might even prompt more states to put anti-gay sodomy laws on the books.  (Lawrence invalidated all sodomy laws, by the way.  If sex is between consenting adults, not incestuous, and in a private place, it's legal.)

The timing and the factual circumstances of how a law is challenged in court can be a tremendous influence to how the Supreme Court decides a case.  The Government and activist groups both want to create binding precedent favorable to them, so if they think they're going to win, they take a case to the Supreme Court, and they do whatever they can to prevent a case they think is going to lose from getting to the Supreme Court.  If the group the government had been spying on had turned out to have solid terrorist connections, you bet your ass the government would take it to the high court.  Now theoretically it shouldn't matter to the validity of a law that the group was caught doing something bad or not.  That's like saying that breaking into someone's house is constitutional in every case where you find illegal guns or drugs.  But does the demonstration of a laws effectiveness or ineffectiveness make a difference to judges?  Sure does.  Take Clinton v. Jones.  In that case the Supreme Court unanimously decided that sitting Presidents had no immunity to civil litigation for acts committed prior to taking office.  The justices figured it would be "highly unlikely to occupy any substantial amount of [the President]'s time" to defend himself in court during his term.  Clinton's testimony in that trial led directly to the Lewinsky scandal.  The next time this issue comes up, it's a safe bet those justices vote the other way.

One other thing I think needs to be pointed out: cases are settled for reasons other than the merits of a claim all the time.  If a plaintiff suing for negligence is an adorable 10-year-old girl, she's much more likely to win than a 30-year-old construction worker, even if they suffered the exact same harm.  So if both claims were settled before going to court, the 10-year-old would get a larger cash settlement.

EDIT: I should add that most of the time when the issue of avoiding litigation comes up, it's in a pedestrian context.  The government, for example, may have decided that the terms of their contract mean X when the better reading is that they mean Y.  X makes things more simple administratively, so they go with X and avoid litigation about it.  (For example: when an employee is relocated to a new building but keeps his old job title and responsibilities, has he been "transferred" according to the terms of his contract?  This is important if, say, an employee may contest a "transfer" but may not contest run-of-the-mill managerial decisions.)

I should also add that the government's motivation for stopping doing something when threatened with a lawsuit is often about money, not about fear that the law is unconstitutional.  If the government has a case it's almost sure to win, but bringing it to trial would cost millions of dollars in attorney's fees and discovery costs, it may settle the case (or as in your article make the case moot) just to save money.  That may have even been the case in your article, though I doubt it.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 11:44:12 AM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #423 on: February 24, 2011, 01:52:07 AM »
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2011/02/23/govt_drops_defense_of_anti_gay_marriage_law/

So the Obama administration's justice department has decided not to defend DOMA, following their conclusion that it is an unconstitutional violation of equal protection.  Pretty cool.

There's a caveat here, though.  AG Holder indicates that the justice department will only refuse to defend the law if the 2nd Circuit (the federal court the case is appearing before) agrees with the justice department's conclusion that laws discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation are subject to "intermediate scrutiny."

When the constitutionality of a law is challenged on the basis that it may violate the equal protection clause, there are (ostensibly) three different levels of scrutiny the courts use to determine if the law is in fact constitutional: rational basis, intermediate, and strict.  The higher the scrutiny, the better reason the government has to come up with to defend the discriminatory law.  The level of scrutiny the courts use depends on what kind of classification is being used to discriminate.  Regular classifications, "felon," "hipster," etc, are afforded rational basis.  Sex is afforded intermediate.  Race is afforded strict.

Coming back to the justice department's position, the department has a duty to defend Congress' laws in court as long as there's a colorable claim that those laws are constitutional.  Some federal circuits have decided that sexual orientation should be afforded rational basis scrutiny.  When cases challenging DOMA were brought in those circuits, the justice department indicated that it would defend the law.  The 2nd circuit has yet to decide what level of scrutiny sexual orientation should be afforded.  So the justice department did its own back-of-the-napkin calculation, decided that intermediate scrutiny was the likely standard, and decided that DOMA is unconstitutional if intermediate scrutiny is the correct standard.

It's still up to the 2nd circuit to decide what the correct standard is.  The really important part of the justice department's position is that it gives the 2nd circuit political cover to make the determination that intermediate is the correct standard.  Judges find it a lot easier to overturn laws when they know the president agrees with them.

My personal take on the law is that it is unquestionably unconstitutional under intermediate scrutiny, and probably unconstitutional under rational basis scrutiny as well.  Frankly, if this makes its way up to the Supreme Court, I would be very surprised if they upheld the law.  The congressional record on DOMA is peppered with commentary expressing moral disapproval of homosexuality and homosexuals, and the Supreme Court (and justice Kennedy in particular) made it quite clear that mere dislike of a group, and dislike of homosexuals in particular, is an unconstitutional basis for a law.

DOMA is probably not held in high regard by the conservative side of the Supreme Court, by the way.  It is a slap in the face to federalism and full faith and credit.  It regulates marriage, which is an area of law traditionally left to the states.  Conservatives tend to jealously guard areas of traditional state lawmaking authority.  Moreover, it explicitly tells states that they may disregard the laws of other states.  The constitution says states have to give "full faith and credit" to the laws of other states.  That's a murky area of law, but I'm pretty sure DOMA comes out on the wrong side of it.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 01:56:46 AM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #424 on: February 24, 2011, 02:45:18 PM »
I thought the clause covered in the court case was only the third clause of DOMA (prohibiting the recognition of same-sex marriage; so...you can't file your taxes jointly).  It's the second clause of DOMA that's the big deal (the part that says no state must respect a marriage made in any other state).