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Author Topic: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses  (Read 60863 times)

metroid composite

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #575 on: August 23, 2011, 02:09:55 PM »
To be fair, you could play "The Power of One" and I wouldn't recognize it as pokemon music.  I'm not sure I've ever seen that particular pokemon movie.

EDIT: actually listening to their closing statements, I can't help but thinking "I'm so confused: this Jon Huntsman person seems so sane; why have I not heard of him?"
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 07:56:25 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #577 on: August 25, 2011, 08:39:29 PM »
I'm glad you plan to leave a state destitute in the name of your PURE IDEALS, Mr. Cantor.

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #578 on: September 08, 2011, 12:32:52 AM »
http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all-reflections-gop-operative-who-left-cult/1314907779

Well this was a sobering read.

Blah blah disclaimer obvious bias on the part of the article and myself but damn.
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #579 on: September 08, 2011, 03:00:25 AM »
http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all-reflections-gop-operative-who-left-cult/1314907779

Well this was a sobering read.

Blah blah disclaimer obvious bias on the part of the article and myself but damn.

That...pretty much sounds exactly like my current assessment of American politics.  Except I probably have a more negative view of Democrats.

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #580 on: September 14, 2011, 10:26:33 AM »
Quote
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." (That was President Eisenhower, writing to his brother Edgar in 1954.)

I like that quote. It really says quite a lot about how much the world has changed.
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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #581 on: September 14, 2011, 06:00:06 PM »
Quote
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." (That was President Eisenhower, writing to his brother Edgar in 1954.)

I like that quote. It really says quite a lot about how much the world has changed.

The fact that the Texas oil millionaires and business man-politicians happen to be the ones controlling the parties? Well, yes.
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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #582 on: September 14, 2011, 08:40:44 PM »
That. It's still a splinter group, just one that now has the capacity to make a spectacular amount of noise out of proportion to their size.

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #583 on: September 29, 2011, 05:23:02 PM »
http://www.epi.org/publication/regulatory-uncertainty-phony-explanation/

A quick kneecapping of the entire take on Republican economic philosophy right now. Republicans wanted to make this all Obama's fault, and I guess adopting voodoo economics was the only way they could.


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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #585 on: October 15, 2011, 02:19:24 AM »
It'll get axed in the senate, vetoed at worst.

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #586 on: October 15, 2011, 07:30:55 PM »
The problem is that it is even proceeding.

metroid composite

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #587 on: October 17, 2011, 11:07:19 PM »
Quote
the "Protect Life Act."

Quote
would, among other things, allow doctors and hospitals to "exercise their conscience" by letting pregnant women facing emergency medical conditions die.

Ahahaha, what?  Can we change false advertising laws so that they apply to congressional bills please?

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #588 on: October 19, 2011, 06:54:48 AM »
I find several of Alternet.org's articles to be full of Leftist editorial jargon, but unfortunately it's not too farfetched from the languages others are using to describe this bill.

In better news, we're supposedly on the verge of a malaria vaccine.

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #590 on: October 27, 2011, 12:15:36 AM »
In breaking news, banks control most of the money.
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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #591 on: October 27, 2011, 08:41:50 AM »
But this time physicists are letting you know!  Not to mention all the primary resources and the manufcturing as well.
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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #592 on: October 27, 2011, 07:05:45 PM »
On the issue of "minority group controls majority share," have any of you seen footage from the ouster of the Occupy Oakland movement from the City Hall plaza?

It's not nearly as impressive on TV as it is in person, but you'll have to settle for the online/TV commentator version:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-october-26-2011/parks-and-demonstration---oakland-riot?xrs=playershare_fb

I feel like I should say something about the protesters, and the cops, and the mayor, and the president, but there's too much to say. So here's a small highlight summary:

  • The protesters occupied a plaza outside Oakland City Hall for 2 weeks. They did not take care of the space. Downtown Oakland isn't really known for being "safe" to start with.
  • The city waived the law against occupying public space overnight, then rescinded it and chased everyone out with cops in riot gear.
  • Protesters threw paint and garbage cans and bottles at the police officers. Police officers deployed tear gas and flashbang grenades. Who knows which came first?
  • The mayor was out of town lobbying in D.C. while all this happened.
  • We had to call in cops from the rest of the county for reinforcement because Oakland PD is short-staffed and severely underfunded.
  • The president had a $5,000-$7,500-a-plate campaign fundraiser meal across the Bay in San Francisco on Tuesday, the same day Occupy Oakland was ousted.
  • The White House media restricted access to the fundraiser: no local media was allowed, only a portion of the Washington, D.C. media.


Much of this has me *facepalm*.

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metroid composite

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #593 on: November 04, 2011, 09:46:05 PM »
Facepalm bill of the day:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/michigan-anti-bullying-law-bullying-gay-students-activists-article-1.972241?localLinksEnabled=false
http://youtu.be/zDK-ja8PLgg

Quote
"Matt's Safe School Law", named for 14-year-old Matt Epling who committed suicide in 2008 after being bullied by his classmates, includes a provision specifically noting that the law doesn't prohibit expression of religious or moral viewpoints.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 09:51:54 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #594 on: November 04, 2011, 10:48:43 PM »
This sounds like a disproporionate reaction to me?  I mean, this is a bland restatement of the 1st amendment.  If it stops there - "*expression* of moral viewpoints is okay - then at best a judge can say "Okay the legislators intended special care to be taken to not misinterpret religious debate as bullying."  But it doesn't say "bullying that is religiously motivated is okay."  (Or if it does, then that doesn't come through from the article, although people are clearly interpreting it as such.)

e.g.:
Impolite but allowed: "Vikram, just so you know, Vishnu is a false god and demon from the pits of hell trying to ensnare you with lies.  You should embrace Jesus as your personal savior."
Bullying: "You goddamn pagan, we hate you and you should go die."

At the very least if I was a juror that's how I'd interp such a provision.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #595 on: November 04, 2011, 11:37:26 PM »
Quote
"Vikram, just so you know, Vishnu is a false god and demon from the pits of hell trying to ensnare you with lies.  You should embrace Jesus as your personal savior."

I dunno. Obviously that's acceptable in the world at large, but if I heard that in one of my classes I'd be inclined to step in and put a stop to it, and probably talk to the student after class (though the talk would be more along the lines of "you should be more sensitive to the beliefs of others" than "you violated policy x, principal's office is thataway", to be fair). Of course, bullying is much more than just isolated quotations; even ones more benign (or "morally motivated") than that one could become bullying if repeated often or said to obviously get a reaction out of another kid.

No real opinion on this law; the article is pretty unhelpful and provides a slanted view as well.

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #596 on: November 05, 2011, 01:27:15 AM »
This sounds like a disproporionate reaction to me?  I mean, this is a bland restatement of the 1st amendment.  If it stops there - "*expression* of moral viewpoints is okay - then at best a judge can say "Okay the legislators intended special care to be taken to not misinterpret religious debate as bullying."  But it doesn't say "bullying that is religiously motivated is okay."  (Or if it does, then that doesn't come through from the article, although people are clearly interpreting it as such.)

I agree.  Particularly because the religion language is right next to language saying that the bill doesn't infringe on first amendment rights.

The religion language is in the bill is clearly directed at an incident where a student in a Michigan school spoke out in a class about being offended by homosexual conduct because it was against his religion and the teacher disciplined him for it.  You can see how this would make religion-conscious legislators a bit more cautious.

-------------------------

Here are the relevant parts of the bill, 2011 MI S.B. 137, so decide for yourself.  Sorry about the caps.  For what it's worth, I'm completely convinced that if a student engaged in a course of conduct directed at another student that included frequent reminders that student A did not approve of student B's sexual orientation on account of student A's religion, and it was objectively clear that student A's conduct would upset student B, then student A would be found to be "bullying" student B as defined under the act.

(1) NOT LATER THAN 6 MONTHS AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THIS SECTION, THE BOARD OF A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR INTERMEDIATE SCHOOL DISTRICT OR BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF A PUBLIC SCHOOL ACADEMY SHALL ADOPT AND IMPLEMENT A POLICY PROHIBITING BULLYING BY PUPILS AT SCHOOL, AS DEFINED IN THIS SECTION.

(10)(B) "BULLYING" MEANS ANY WRITTEN, VERBAL, OR PHYSICAL ACT, OR ANY ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATION, BY A PUPIL DIRECTED AT 1 OR MORE OTHER PUPILS THAT IS INTENDED OR THAT A REASONABLE PERSON WOULD KNOW IS LIKELY TO HARM 1 OR MORE PUPILS EITHER DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY BY DOING ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
(I) SUBSTANTIALLY INTERFERING WITH EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES, BENEFITS, OR PROGRAMS OF 1 OR MORE PUPILS.
(II) SUBSTANTIALLY AND ADVERSELY AFFECTING THE ABILITY OF A PUPIL TO PARTICIPATE IN OR BENEFIT FROM THE SCHOOL DISTRICT'S OR PUBLIC SCHOOL'S EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS OR ACTIVITIES BY PLACING THE PUPIL IN REASONABLE FEAR OF PHYSICAL HARM.
(III) HAVING AN ACTUAL AND SUBSTANTIAL DETRIMENTAL EFFECT ON A PUPIL'S PHYSICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH OR CAUSING SUBSTANTIAL EMOTIONAL DISTRESS.
(IV) CAUSING SUBSTANTIAL DISRUPTION IN, OR SUBSTANTIAL INTERFERENCE WITH, THE ORDERLY OPERATION OF THE SCHOOL.

(9) THIS SECTION APPLIES ONLY TO CONDUCT BY A PUPIL DIRECTED AT 1 OR MORE OTHER PUPILS AND, EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED IN THIS SECTION, DOES NOT APPLY TO CONDUCT BY ANY OTHER PERSON, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, A SCHOOL EMPLOYEE, A SCHOOL VOLUNTEER WHO IS NOT A PUPIL, OR A PUPIL'S PARENT OR GUARDIAN.

(8) THIS SECTION DOES NOT ABRIDGE THE RIGHTS UNDER THE FIRST AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OR UNDER ARTICLE I OF THE STATE CONSTITUTION OF 1963 OF A SCHOOL EMPLOYEE, SCHOOL VOLUNTEER, PUPIL, OR A PUPIL'S PARENT OR GUARDIAN. THIS SECTION DOES NOT PROHIBIT A STATEMENT OF A SINCERELY HELD RELIGIOUS BELIEF OR MORAL CONVICTION OF A SCHOOL EMPLOYEE, SCHOOL VOLUNTEER, PUPIL, OR A PUPIL'S PARENT OR GUARDIAN.

As for the argument that this bill is "worse than nothing" I have to disagree because,
(7) THIS SECTION DOES NOT PREVENT A PERSON FROM SEEKING ANY OTHER CIVIL OR CRIMINAL REDRESS AVAILABLE UNDER LAW.
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #597 on: November 06, 2011, 11:59:14 PM »
The thing is, you don't have complete freedom of speech in a school setting, as ruled by the supreme court:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #598 on: November 07, 2011, 02:20:20 AM »
Yeah, you're right, but I'm not sure that matters all that much.  Taking the two parts of (8) separately:

THIS SECTION DOES NOT ABRIDGE THE RIGHTS UNDER THE FIRST AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OR UNDER ARTICLE I OF THE STATE CONSTITUTION OF 1963

...means nothing.  It doesn't enlarge students' speech rights beyond what they are afforded by the constitution, which as you point out are less than what the general public gets.

THIS SECTION DOES NOT PROHIBIT A STATEMENT OF A SINCERELY HELD RELIGIOUS BELIEF OR MORAL CONVICTION OF A SCHOOL EMPLOYEE, SCHOOL VOLUNTEER, PUPIL, OR A PUPIL'S PARENT OR GUARDIAN.

...is somewhat more ambiguous.  Is it meant to reiterate a right students already have, like the first part, or is it meant to give them something more than that?  Whatever the answer to that question is, I believe this statement does NOT give students carte blanche to torment their peers with mean-spirited taunts, even if those taunts are quite legitimately based on a "sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction."

The reason why I believe that is the difference in language between the definition of bullying, which includes "any written [or] verbal act," and the definition of what the act does not prohibit, namely "a statement of a sincerely held belief or moral conviction."

If the act were meant to exempt ALL religious or moral language from being defined as bullying, either it would have excluded it from the definition of "bullying" entirely, or it would have mirrored the language of the definition of bullying, coming out something like this: "this section does not prohibit any written, verbal, or physical act, or any electronic communication of a sincerely held religious belief or moral conviction, by a pupil."

Because it does neither of those things, it's safe to assume that a course of conduct, rather than a one-off statement of disapproval, would be bullying no matter how sincere the moral conviction.  Even with our first amendment, there are a number of laws that punish speech when speech alone becomes a course of conduct that disrupts another's rights (sexual harassment and stalking are the most relevant examples).  If a man leaves his ex-girlfriend 40 messages on her answering machine every day for a week, he could be prosecuted for it even though his conduct consisted only of speech.  I think the distinction between a "statement" and any "verbal act" will turn on similar considerations, meaning targeted, malicious speech, particularly if repeated, would be punishable under the act, even if the product of sincere belief.
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Grefter

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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #599 on: November 21, 2011, 01:07:19 PM »
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2011/11/dumbass_training_and_the_uc_da033608.php

I should be asleep, but hey finally got the bug to dig into some news about Occupy stuff.  I won't bother talking about the actual politics of it, I am sure by this point we can generally take a guess where each of us stands on said issue.

Instead it can be an interesting study of the application of non-lethal weaponry on general citizenry.  So here is an article that Machiavelli clearly would disagree with.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
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