Author Topic: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses  (Read 60943 times)

NotMiki

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #425 on: February 25, 2011, 09:02:08 AM »
You're right that that's the only clause covered.  When I said conesrvatives didn't like DOMA, I was referring to a part of DOMA that's not currently at issue.  I apologize for the confusion.

However, I would argue that the part of DOMA that's currently at issue, the part relating to federal benefits, is the big part, and the part relating to state-to-state recognition of marriage is the small part.  The reason why is that although it's weird for a federal law to explicitly tell states they don't have to recognize the legal classifications of other states, the current interpretation of the "full faith and credit" clause says that a state does NOT have to respect the law of another state if that law goes against the public policy of the first state.  In other words, the DOMA state- to-state nonrecognition section doesn't necessarily do much in practice.

I'll try to explain this better when I'm sober.
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #426 on: February 25, 2011, 03:05:04 PM »
It sounds like if what you're saying is right, even if DOMA were fully repealed, someone couldn't get married in Iowa and go back to Texas and have that marriage recognized.  Well...that's lame.

In other news, WTF Georgia:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/22/georgia-anti-abortion-bill-would-require-investigations-of-miscarriages/
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/05/georgia-republicans-bill-would-reclassify-rape-victims-as-accusers/

EDIT I like this part too:

Quote
158 "(a)  No facility operated on public school property or operated by a public school district
159 and no employee of any such facility acting within the scope of such employee's
160 employment shall distribute contraceptives.

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en-US/display.aspx?Legislation=31965
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 03:47:30 PM by metroid composite »

NotMiki

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #427 on: February 25, 2011, 07:51:19 PM »
That's pretty fucking special, Georgia.  I like how the bills are so concerned about the rights of the accused.  Innocent until proven guilty and all that.  Unless they've been accused of performing an illegal abortion.  If they've been accused of that, they have their medical license suspended until their name is cleared, no matter how weak the charge against them may be.
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #428 on: February 25, 2011, 07:56:01 PM »
IotD thread is over in general chat, MC.
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #429 on: February 26, 2011, 09:11:28 PM »
Coming back to DOMA, the clause at issue that defines marriage for federal purposes has a particularly damaging effect: it prevents the US from recognizing same-sex marriages for immigration purposes, so that a person in a same-sex marriage living in the US cannot sponsor their spouse for a green card.  The federal definition of marriage has other serious negative consequences.  Same-sex couples can't file their federal taxes jointly, which denies them the economic advantage US tax policy gives to married couples.  A spouse in a same-sex relationship could not take advantage of the FMLA, which mandates that employees allow spouses time off of work to take care of their seriously ill children, parents and spouses (though thanks to the Obama administration, they can now take time off to take care of children they act as a parent for even if they are not the biological or adoptive parent).  The GAO has found over 1,000 federal statutes for which marital status is a factor.  For every single one of those, a person in a same-sex marriage is considered single.  But that all could change if the section of the law at issue is ruled unconstitutional.

As a tactical matter, I hope this is the next gay rights issue to reach the high court.  The Supreme Court really doesn't want to address the issue of gay marriage directly, but through DOMA they have the chance to rule on a discrimination issue that has serious consequences but isn't as socially inflammatory.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 09:18:17 PM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #430 on: February 26, 2011, 11:02:08 PM »
The state-to-state marriage recognition clause in DOMA doesn't actually do anything important. Consider: The full faith and credit clause of the Constitution speaks to whether or not one state has to recognize marriages performed in another. If it is not interpreted to require universal recognition (as is currently the case), then states don't have to recognize another state's marriages if they don't want to. Since DOMA doesn't do anything to stop the states from recognizing gay marriages performed elsewhere if they decide that's what they want to do, DOMA changes nothing there. If the FFAC clause is interpreted to require universal recognition, then it trumps federal statute and whatever decision changes that interpretation would also strike down that part of DOMA.

Re: Georgia. So you can't be categorized as a rape "victim" unless your rapist gets caught? Hell, forget protecting the accused, what about situations where police never even find enough evidence to make an arrest? What then? The woman's just an "accuser" for the rest of her life? What the fuckity fuck?
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #431 on: February 27, 2011, 02:07:07 AM »
Well, until a court challenge is made successfully, a federal law is presumptively "right," so DOMA's "ignore other state's marriages if you please" does have that effect.  I guess a spicy state Attorney General could declare the law presumptively unconstitutional, but that'd be a brave move to make in any state where this would matter.

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #432 on: February 27, 2011, 03:11:08 AM »
True, but since "ignore other state's marriages if you please" was already the prevailing interpretation of FFAC, it would take a successful court challenge to make the opposite happen with or without DOMA.
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #433 on: March 03, 2011, 05:05:53 PM »
In other news, WTF Georgia:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/22/georgia-anti-abortion-bill-would-require-investigations-of-miscarriages/
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/05/georgia-republicans-bill-would-reclassify-rape-victims-as-accusers/

EDIT I like this part too:
http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en-US/display.aspx?Legislation=31965

I am not surprised. Georgia has been attempting to regress policies for women, the homosexual community and minorities for quite a while. I caught wind of a policy requiring females in a marriage to receive consent from a husband to have their tubes tied, but vice versa is unrecognized. Georgia rape laws are explicitly catered towards women and negligent to male situations. They ignore the sex of a person in sodomy laws that gives more leeway in discriminating against male homosexuals.

It only makes sense for a state bent on circumscribing the rights of pretty much any non-male WASP to entertain the semantics of miscarriage and abortion. Even if this policy doesn't become law, it only strengthens the fervor of those people supporting raiding family planning clinics, abortion clinics and women's health centers under their biased presumptions. I'm going to believe in the faith of choices and support the idea that women do not make abortion decisions lightly. After the decision to have an abortion, either surgical or non-surgical, their intent was to not continue carrying a pregnancy to full term. This is neither an accident nor a random situation. It really disgusts me when people liken miscarriages to abortions, as both are serious issues that may or may not require hospitalization. Then for the state to recognize women as accusers rather than victims in rape cases reminds me that there is no patience or regard for women's issues.


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« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 03:33:30 PM by metroid composite »

Cmdr_King

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #435 on: March 11, 2011, 03:03:04 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/embed/AUpO1QFMDtM

Watch up to about 3:30 and then... what.  What.  WHAT.  What.  What!  WHAT?!
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #436 on: March 11, 2011, 06:02:37 AM »
I sincerely hope that the future of this great country changes soon.

NotMiki

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #437 on: March 11, 2011, 06:32:35 AM »
Holy shit.

EDIT: reading a bit about this, it seems that MI already had a law in place for a long while that would allow state government takeover of towns and school districts in much the same manner as the new law does, but that the trigger for the authority of state government was a downgrading of a local government's bond credit rating.  In other words, your town had to be in deep shit according to a credit rating agency before the state government could take it over.  Now the state government seems to think they should be in the business of making those determinations themselves.  But that's fine.  It's not like there are politicians in government or anything.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 06:51:21 AM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #438 on: March 11, 2011, 07:29:33 AM »
Now that's interesting.  I don't suppose it dates back to engler?

GOD I hate this state.

Edit: let it not be said that the idea of merging school districts for purposes of slimming down administrative staff is a bad thing, mind.  There's just something wholly wrong about the governor's office having the power to arbitrarily decide that his appointee should be the one making those decisions.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 07:33:35 AM by Cmdr_King »
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #439 on: March 11, 2011, 07:58:35 AM »
I don't know where the original law came from.   I get the sense that in its original form it was not terribly controversial, though I could be wrong about that.
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #440 on: March 12, 2011, 02:15:16 AM »
I have no real idea what's going on there but everywhere looks bad right now =/

(I'll rewatch the vid when I get home - sounds not good on family PC)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 02:24:48 AM by Clear Tranquil »
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #441 on: March 31, 2011, 10:44:01 PM »
Long ugly link!

Oh irony how I do love thee.  Nothing like arguing against paying reparations for 20 years for poisoning people.  If you hold out  just a bit longer they might keel over and die.
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #442 on: April 02, 2011, 01:25:10 PM »
So at the request of Dow Chemical, US courts order the suit tried in Nicaragua. Then, when the judgment goes against Dow, that same judicial system say that any judgment by a Nicaraguan court would be nonbinding. Because the system is corrupt and lets politically connected strongmen tell the judges how to rule, you see.

My irony scale just exploded.
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #443 on: April 02, 2011, 04:12:22 PM »
So at the request of Dow Chemical, US courts order the suit tried in Nicaragua. Then, when the judgment goes against Dow, that same judicial system say that any judgment by a Nicaraguan court would be nonbinding. Because the system is corrupt and lets politically connected strongmen tell the judges how to rule, you see.

My irony scale just exploded.

Take a deep breath, there are some things you need to know before you pass judgment.

What happened is this: in a different case with different plaintiffs, Dow argued that the case should be argued in Nicaragua.  But Dow never made that argument for this case.  It was filed in Nicaragua because the plaintiffs wanted to file it there.  The reason why Dow argued that earlier cases should be argued in Nicaragua was that at the time Nicaraguan law was favorable to them, and Nicaragua has since passed a law quite unfavorable to them.  Bottom line, Dow never demanded this case be argued in Nicaragua.

A little background: this case is brought by banana plantation workers who were allegedly rendered sterile by DBCP, a pesticide.  DBCP was shown to cause sterility in high doses, and the US stopped using it, but Dole wanted to continue to use it in foreign countries, and they threatened to sue Dow if it didn't provide it according to the contract between them.  So now plantation workers who have allegedly been sterilized by the chemical are suing.  Litigation over it has been going on for a very long time because it's really tricky to figure out, factually, who has been injured.  The injury takes a long time to manifest, and the symptom is something that can happen for reasons unrelated to the chemical.  So Nicaragua passed a law in 2000 that specifically addresses DBCP cases and makes life easier for plaintiffs by putting the burden of proof that a plaintiff has not been sterilized by DBCP on the defendant, so that instead of plaintiffs having to prove in court that the chemical sterilized them, Dow must now prove in court that the chemical did NOT sterilize them.  That's a big no-no in American jurisprudence.  The court that made the decision not to honor the Nicaraguan judgments did so on the basis of the Nicaraguan law I just described, not the fairness Nicaraguan courts in general.  In fact, they specifically rejected the idea that the Nicaraguan justice system was corrupt (although a lower court ruled that it was).  Incidentally, some plantation workers have brought claims in the US and won a lot of money (about $1m per successful plaintiff).  Others have been shown to be frauds, not plantation workers at all, and had their cases thrown out on the merits.

So there you have it.  I think Dow and Dole should have to pay out bigtime, and it is my sincere hope that they do, but I can't blame the court for refusing to honor the verdict.
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #444 on: April 03, 2011, 10:36:07 AM »
So we can just all chill and enjoy the single level of irony of the someone in the US courts bashing on Nicaragua for having corrupt courts that are overtly influenced by political or corporate pressure.
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #445 on: April 03, 2011, 03:53:02 PM »
I've come to believe that most of the outcome-determined decisions in US courts are ideologically motivated, and not the direct result of political pressure.  Most courts that make particularly important decisions are lifetime appointments; they're fairly well insulated from pressure.  Doesn't mean they don't make outcome-determined decisions, but those bad decisions are for the most part based on how the judges themselves think the world ought to operate, not what other people whisper in their ear.

In my personal experience, the only judges I've seen make transparently outcome-determined decisions have been collective bargaining arbitrators, and those decisions have been in favor of sympathetic laborers.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 04:04:01 PM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #446 on: April 07, 2011, 01:06:18 AM »
I normally don't bother posting anything that's blatantly angled on one side of the story but

UTERUS

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/04/06-1
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #447 on: April 07, 2011, 02:55:59 PM »
I normally don't bother posting anything that's blatantly angled on one side of the story but

UTERUS

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/04/06-1

What the uterus?

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Re: Politics '10: Keeping up with the Xornses.
« Reply #448 on: April 07, 2011, 08:10:39 PM »
I normally don't bother posting anything that's blatantly angled on one side of the story but

UTERUS

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/04/06-1

Sneeeerk.

I'm not sold on any site that uses anti-choice as an abortion debate descriptor, but that's still funny.
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Re: Politics '11: Keeping up with the Xornses
« Reply #449 on: April 07, 2011, 08:18:35 PM »
Yeah, that's what I meant, I would not use that site for trying to make an objective point, but seriously uterus.
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