Good Morning, 2010! The Princess' Diary Intarwebs Edition

[Cmdr_King]

Well, there's two possible answers there.

The first, of course, is that I played Grandia II first and thus expected the other games to be at that level.  Grandia 1 I thought "eh, it was the first game, it can be worse than the second".  Then the third game was even worse and I realized that no, they just don't know what they're doing and I shouldn't trust them.

The other answer would be that there's a gap between "bad plot" and "offensive plot", with Grandia III falling in the latter.  Put another way, Grandia III's plot had so much waste and stupid and trying to pass of Emelious as redeemable that I was more aghast than Xenosaga III's "oh hey chaos is bigger than Jesus" (admittedly I am biased, but the point remains, there's a difference between normal bad and "oh dear god I hate humanity for making this" bad)

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm biased too since I wasn't taking G3 plot seriously by Disc 2, but I can't see arguing Emelious is redeemable (which doesn't seem toooo unreasonable to me, as terrible as his motivation was he was also showing clear signs of brainwashing) as a tiny fraction as bad as what XS3 did. Woohoo pissing on religion, woohoo bra-cannons, woohoo pissing on religion some more. Also Shion characterisation in general. SHE IS SUCH A WONDERFUL PERSON AND SO SMART TOO wait what. I am playing the much better game in that series now and it is still building up rage at points. But yeah, long story short is while I totally agree with the line between bad plot and offensive plot I totally disagree with the side you put G3 on and have a hard time seeing this be arguable.

The parallel I have always used is (teacher bias warning), if in English class, someone submitted G3's plot to me in a story, I would think it was (assuming I did not see it as humour) childish, vapid, and hand out a mediocre grade then put it out of my mind. This is a bad story. If someone submitted XS3's plot to me in a story, I would feel at least a spark of worry, and feel the need to talk to the student about watching out for offending people. Reading it aloud in class could make for an uncomfortable experience. This is an offensive story.

I still kinda understand where you're coming from with G3 (that's about how I feel about BoF5, though objectively I know it can never be XS3 level since it just did things that BUGGED me, not things that are objectively offensive), mind. Just... well, obviously, it didn't hit those chords for me, so there is a great gap in our values and such. And even so, do think you need to keep the above perspective. Yeah, I know you don't seem the type to be pissed off by religious stuff, but at least acknowledge that other people will be and that tends to make something objective garbage when it's just done for shock and "cool" value.


Tangent aside, generally see Shale. Even G2's plot wasn't particularly good, since it basically sucks after the Aira arc with one or two exceptions and that's nearly 2/3 of the game. G1's sucked ass, I gather GX's did too. Just... not a series you should be playing for that, ever. I can sorttaaa see how you played yourself into the corner you did, though requires some nostalgia goggles for G2, but seems an odd thing to continue holding against the series even so.

[NotMiki]

I for one would like to see more Grandia, because absent III's plot it was a lot of fun.  Game gave you a lot of options, and was tough enough in places to force you to use them wisely.  There's only one good Grandia game for plot, and that's probably an abberation, but as gameplay goes, G1<G2<GX<G3.  I like that trend.  (Ok, you can argue the relative value of G2 and GX, but you get the idea.)

[Cmdr_King]

(Disclaimer: For whatever reason, I find this sort of discussion fun, so if I seem like I'm taking it seriously, I don't really mean to.)

Well... put it this way.  Xenosaga III is basically Dan Brown Novel meets trashy anime.  So all the pop conspiracy-theory anti-Christian nonsense that swept a nation through manipulating people with BSed 'controversy' married to fanservice, fanservice, fanservice and overly emo characters supposedly meant to be sympathetic.  All bad things that involve piss poor writing, to be sure, but in a been there, done that sort of way.

Grandia III has basically the same problem (shoving together basically every bit of bad character writing they could find and naming it Emelious, from the self-harm to the "I AM INCOMPLEEEEEEEEETE" to the siscon vibes), just due to a quirk in personality, Emo's bad writing fantasy mashup bugged me more.  

To clarify a point, I'm actually just saying "Grandia III's plot is bad at XSIII's level", not that it's necessarily worse or more offensive.  That's going to vary from person to person, and certainly XSIII's got an edge there since there's a good 2 billion or so people it's setting out to offend.

[Bardiche]

Let me re-iterate that I am SO glad I have not and will not play Xenosaga III, if only because I like my Shion as a likable character. Or at the very least a not hateable character.

Of course the DL may just be exaggerating their hate of Xenosaga III plot but I'm not about to take my chances.

[Dhyerwolf]

The flaw of the Lunar vs Grandia metric is that Grandia doesn't endlessly rehash the same game, and at least produces new games more often than once a decade.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, it's been what, 15 years since Lunar has actually released a new, worthwhile game? Just not a series I get excited over as a result, and I really did like Eternal Blue Complete (SSSC's not bad either). Most of the people who made the game have probably long since found other companies or even careers. Honestly it seems more worth my time to wish for something like a resurrection of the Shadow Hearts or Breath of Fire series.

[OblivionKnight]

Day 1 of 2 from interview 2 complete...well mostly - still have to go to dinner. 

I'll be happy when these are done <_<

[superaielman]

Yeah, you haven't been on IRC or steam in ages slacker. They going well?

[SnowFire]

...I'll be brief because obviously I'm in the minority on liking Xenosaga III.  Yes, XS3 has some stupid plot points.  However, they don't interact with the rest of the game's plot TOO much, so I can't really be on board for too much XS3 Disc 2 hate.  I mean, take Final Fantasy VII plot.  It is now revealed at the end that Tifa was really Mary Magdalene's clone!  .... this is impossibly dumb, but it ultimately doesn't make much difference and affects the rest of the story not at all.  About 90% of XS3's plot stil works if we replace chaos as "generic mysterious guardian of good" and KOS-MOS as just a really advanced robot.

On the offensive deal, well, this is ultimately personal for everyone.  Still, this is ultimately where inanity saves the day a bit.  Saying "Jesus was an evil demon, and it was all a plot to send everyone to hell and gain ultimate power, and Judas totally saved the day" is fairly offensive to me.  (This is the backstory to Final Fantasy Tactics, though they did change the names, so they can take refuge in that at least.  Also, it's undoubtedly interesting as well as offensive, at least.)  Saying "Jesus was secretly a space cowboy on a quest to find the best burrito ever with his Vensuian Chimp, Christmas, from whom the holiday is named after" is just roll-your-eyes-and-move-on, to me at least.  I'll grant that XS3 took the space burrito plot sadly seriously, which is a mark against it, but ultimately I myself can't work up too much offense.  I did read "The Da Vinci Code" after all, and moderately enjoyed it as fiction (though that book ALSO needs to be thrown against the wall in several places), even despite Dan Brown rambling about "faction" and talking about how its plot should totally be taken seriously.

As for Grandia III, that strikes me as a whole different level of fail.  It just breaks so many *obvious* guidelines of how to write a decent plot - hell, even a generic yet decent tropetastic plot.  The XS3 writer needs a talk, yes, but the G3 writer needs to be expelled as a hopeless case.  Keeping the exact same movies and scenes, but rewriting the script to make a half an ounce of sense...  I could have done far better in just two days.  Seriously, WTF.  And yeah, Emelious is at the center of a lot of this.  Hoping for villains to reform is all well and good, and writing Alfina as having a character flaw of "always trusts her brother even when she blatantly shouldn't" would also have been fine.  The actual writing ends up so idiotic that...  ugh.  I think I'll stop now, because there's just so many parts that even minor fixes would have made better.

Yeah, I suppose what I'm saying is XS3 Disc 2 plot > Grandia III post-Miranda/Alonso plot.  At least the first has some redeeming factors.

[Dark Holy Elf]

XS3 Disc 2 plot pretty much lacks redeeming features. Those were all on Disc 1. Mizrahi, Virgil... etc. Disc 2 just has the cascadingly increasing fail of Yuriev, PELLEGRI/MARGULIS WE HAVE LOST FAITH SUICIDE RUSH, Voyager teeeehheeeeeheeeing, Kevin he is so sympathetic what a wonderful person motivated by love, and Wilhelm's motivations that I no longer even remember clearly because they were so vague and I was seriously in shock at the game by this point, yet remember them being a capstone to the raw idiocy already seen before.

This is without getting into the parts I cited as actively offensive, mind. And yes, I found Kevin's portrayal in particular far worse than Emelious'. The game just brushes aside his massive manipulation and emotional abuse of Shion like it's something inoffensive or even admirable instead of incredibly creepy and worthy of condemnation.

Note also that even within G3 I found Raven and Alonso worse than Emelious, so whatever bugged you and CK about him wasn't as much a bother to me. He generally came off as generic to me beyond his silly motivation. Found him more funny than anything else as such, since at times he was just so over-the-top (evil laughter for like 20 seconds straight followed by stopping to breathe! It's not quite Austin Powers, but it's close).

but the G3 writer needs to be expelled as a hopeless case.

I know this is mainly intended as humour but assuming it is going along with the hypothetical situation I posted above your response here is painfully stupid. No, you do not expel a student for writing for writing a bad story.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

but the G3 writer needs to be expelled as a hopeless case.

I know this is mainly intended as humour but assuming it is going along with the hypothetical situation I posted above your response here is painfully stupid. No, you do not expel a student for writing for writing a bad story.

Considering how rare of a talent writing stories is, you'd probably have to expel about 95% of all students ever if you held those standards. Your typical middle (or even high!) schooler probably wouldn't be able to create a story above G3-level without a lot of effort. But I digress.

Anyhow, life is doing fine! And apparently I'm getting into the dynamics at the workplace. Just need to be careful of flying mugs everywhere.

[NotMiki]

I think the issue where G3 writing falls below what any old schlub could come up with is...the good guys should be likeable, and the bad guys should be intimidating.  Emilious was a cutter who must have been miserable about his malformed head.  That's worse than no motivation at all.  Also, Alonso lands Miranda.  Alonso is not remotely likable enough for that to happen.

EDIT: and you're supposed to take him seriously.  reading that as a parody sounds pretty brilliant, actually.

[Grefter]

I am going to have to jump in and note that the progression of the Lunar series is being misrepresented here.  It definitely doesn't go alright game -> Good game.

Have you played the original versions?  I know I tried and goddamn did they bite.  I am going to be nice and just label them Mediocre though.

Mediocre game -> Mildly less mediocre game -> (Some Japan only game that sounds completely ignored lolgamegear ->) Average remake with generic gameplay but a smattering of humor ->  Average remake with smattering of humor (That cost like $200) -> (Remake of Japan only game on Saturn ->)  Bad remake of first game (noooot sure if it is worse than the original, didn't get far enough in either to know) -> HORRIBLE HORRIBLE GAME FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU (Lunar Dragon Song for those keeping track) -> This newest remake of a remake that is a total rehash of the first remkae of the first game.

I present to you a monument to mediocrity over 20 years of gaming.  Hooray for innovation in a series!  It averages a release about every three years (actually closer to 4/5, first few came out very quickly).  In it there have been 4 original games and of those 3 of them were released a year apart from each other.  So they have done something new once in 17 years.

I am sorry but this just doesn't excite me nearly to the level of a series that has had 4 games each which continue to innovate and overhaul a far more competent battle system than minor twists on generic TB RPG combat (6 with Japanese only releases, the other 2 sound uh not really interesting at all but continue to be something different from the others in the series).  So the story sucks, but I am going to go right out there and say that I don't think terribly much of Lunar's plot either.  It is like Disgaea that people fill the fronts of their pants for the characters and then go THIS PLOT IS AWESOME.

[Veryslightlymad]

Feel like shit. Had horrible hypnic jerks all last night, and came to the conclusion that I probably had to drop two of my classes.

Arrrrrrrrgh.

[VySaika]

Been avoiding jumping in here, as I haven't played XS3 yet, but I still find myself mystified at the sheer amount of hate G3 plot gets. Always seemed to me to be just incredibly generic, with only Alfina and Emo really standing out as actively bad. And even then, the badness never went beyond the level of "*eyeroll*-> move on" for me. I guess I can see it if you're really that offended by generic plots that take themselves more seriously then deserved(which is to say at all) but...I dunno. The game just never offended me like that.

* Gatewalker shrugs.

I should probably get around to playing XS3 at some point just for the comparison.

[Idun]

XS3 plot was fine. What was not fine was how all of the terms and allusions built from XS1 and expressed itself through the characters in XS3 who seemed to lose what established level of intelligence they had in XS1-2 (Sh-sh-sh-SHION). Plus Disc 2 it felt like a rush, similar to the second disc on Xenogears, except it wasn't text-based heavy. Either way, GIII has no continuity (?) with GI/GII therefore I can perhaps understand the anger gamers have directed at Xenosaga IFF they played all the installments. Otherwise, GIII plot is not anything special to hype in comparison.

I think everyone needs to sit down, remember that Hoshigami exists, and all is right with XS and GIII.

[Lady Door]

Crying at work? Check. Crying at work in front of your boss? Check. Crying at work in front of your boss after receiving some slight criticism? Checkity check.

Goddamnit, sometimes I hate being a girl -- and a pansy one at that. Now is one of those times.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You could try tossing a mug at someone's head every time you feel like crying. Seems to work for my boss!

(EDIT: My boss is pretty cool, really. The flying mugs somehow are part of it)

In all seriousness, anything particularly wrong went down?

[SnowFire]

Dark Holy Elf : Yeah the bit about expulsion was humorous exaggeration.  I dunno, my complaints about the Yuriev part of the plot was more "this feels rushed," since I thought the Federation politics plot was cool and the game decided that Yuriev was able to basically resume massive control behind the scenes despite being "dead" for literally years (imagine if George W. Bush disappeared in 2001 after 9/11 and then re-appeared today to try and take power).  The Pellegri / Margulis / Jin deal was also fine for me, pretty much a "we've gone too far to come back now" deal.  Kevin plot...  okay you've got a point that the game has *huge* kid gloves on Kevin, despite the fact that if the "Kevin's death was all part of the plan" stupid plot twist is taken seriously then...  ugh, yes, it does become bizarre emotional manipulation in pursuit of unclear goals, but I usually edit that out in my head because having it be an accident is about 100x times cooler.  Still, SOME of the Kevin / Shion plot I thought was salvageable.  Oh, well.

Grandia III I could go on about for entirely too long, like Alfina randomly fainting for no reason, apparently shared Raven hate, wonder at the dialogue that convinces Hect to learn to trust outsiders again (The team doesn't even really mouth many platitudes to her about second chances, let alone actually address the original betrayal!  They just kind of stand in the area and her faith is restored by osmosis), the failure to explain where the hell Emmy got his minions from and why they care (okay, Violetta gets a little with the usual lovesick note, but Kornell and La-Ilim?), etc. etc.  Emelious's biggest problem was already covered, that the way the party treats him is just wildly out of sync with how you treat somebody who's an extreme mass-murderer.  Alfina even gets a pass, though they don't really characterize her right either to explain it, but meh.  It's especially aggravating because they had the germ of a good idea which never goes anywhere - Emelious as dramatic foil to Yuri in that both didn't want to do the jobs they were born into, but rather strike out on their own path.  If they'd gone with "Emelious the foiled teenage rebel" and somehow explained how not becoming a Guardian means having to kill them all, things might have had a shot of being good.

Basically XS3 Disc 2 strikes me as a skilled author writing a somewhat rushed, flawed, and offensive story.  G3 post-Ulf is a complete hack writing a generic story - like, not the "pulp fantasy novel writer" level hack but rather "vanity press" level hack.

[Lady Door]

You could try tossing a mug at someone's head every time you feel like crying. Seems to work for my boss!

(EDIT: My boss is pretty cool, really. The flying mugs somehow are part of it)

In all seriousness, anything particularly wrong went down?

Apparently I am just more stressed than I expected I was. I was planning on just stepping outside for some air, but my boss ambushed me before I could get out of my cubicle.

When working on getting us moved from our suite over to the new suite (same building, but across the hall), I was tasked with going through my predecessor's documents. Since a good chunk of it was printed out versions of things I know we have available electronically, I recycled a lot of it. We had been recycling a lot of old documents, so I didn't think anything of it. (NB: My predecessor made over twice as much as I do. It is neither here nor there, but worth pointing out just how unqualified I am to make decisions about her stuff.)

Apparently it was a big deal because she liked to take handwritten, otherwise un-reproduced notes on some of the print-outs. Even though we have yet to be unable to find anything through other means, I was told in no uncertain terms that I need to check with everyone before I do anything in the future just in case there's something I don't know that I need to know. This vagueness was accompanied by a very triggering phrase that went something along the lines of "You had three or four opportunities to do this" even though I didn't actually have those opportunities and was told to deal with it, and I lost it.

tl;dr : I absolutely do not take criticism well in the best of situations, and this one was frustrating and disappointing and so pointless that, when combined with everything else on my mind, it made me break down into hiccups and tears. I mentioned specifically hating being a girl because <TMI> it's that time of the month and </TMI> my psyche is even more fragile than usual right now.

C'est la vie.

[NotMiki]

Let me be clear: your boss is being a dick for no good reason, because there is no good reason to reprimand someone for an honest mistake.  People fuck up all the goddamn time in office work, and it's exactly the kind of stuff you're talking about, and experienced office workers know it and expect it and deal with it.  There will be times in office work when you have to clean up someone else's mess, and there will be times when someone else has to clean up your mess.  Mature people deal with those situations without pointing fingers.

Let me be clear about something else too: your boss fucked up, and took it out on you.  Your boss knew how important those handwritten notes were to him (him? her?) and forgot to tell you.  That's your boss' fault, and your boss is projecting that onto you because you're the easy target.

As for what you do with this situation, I don't know, but don't be suckered into thinking that you were the only (or even the principle) person to make a mistake, or thinking that making mistakes is something you should be made to feel bad about.  It really isn't.

[Grefter]

If it was important it should have had a soft copy and been backed up, simple as that.

[Bardiche]

If it was important it should have had a soft copy and been backed up, simple as that.

This.

I was told in no uncertain terms that I need to check with everyone before I do anything in the future just in case there's something I don't know that I need to know.

Also, this, I may sound incredibly stupid here, but shouldn't your boss volunteer all information you need to know so you can do your job satisfactorily? I mean what.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Chiming in with Jim and Bard, here.


Back to things that aren't serious!

Basically XS3 Disc 2 strikes me as a skilled author writing a somewhat rushed, flawed, and offensive story.  G3 post-Ulf is a complete hack writing a generic story

And the former is so much worse to me. (I agree entirely with this analysis by the way!)


Regarding specific G3 stuff, I agree with pretty much all your complaints except Kornell and La-Ilim because games very often give flunkies little to no real motivation for following their leader (Kornell is pretty much Gilgamesh or Zed, while La-Ilim was rather deliberately a plotless monster flunky). Examples too many to list here.

Pellegri/Margulis: WE'VE COME TOO FAR is a pretty bad villain motivation at the best of times, but XS3 makes it worse by having the duo, instead of doing the logical thing and giving Wilheinlein the finger for betraying them, instead somehow go out and do his bidding? What the fuck? It's made even worse by the fact that they parrot each other in near-identical scenes and yet the game feels the need to separate them with two dungeon sections and another boss fight in the middle. If their plot is going to be the same, might as well have sent them out in a double battle and spared us one of the crazy number of repetitive endgame boss fights - you've beaten both Issachar and Levi solo before this point so this would even have the benefit of making sense.

Yuriev: I will say that I liked his setup in XS2 (basically what you said), but by the end they made no good of it. There's no real politics going on at this point, just mumbo jumbo summon Abel's Ark, camp out there, and have some inane final confrontation involving some weird giant mech all without really explaining his motives beyond some babbling about U-DO (though U-DO in general could be the subject of a series-spanning plot rant).