Let's Play Some Motherf*$&ing Games: 2010!!!!!!

[Meeplelard]

Press Turns aren't such a bad thing when its purely "Hit weakness, get rewarded, hit resistance, get punished" style; its a way to reward someone for doing something right in a more extreme manner, and vice versa, punishes you for making screw ups.  It forces you to actually learn your enemies and adapt and what not, rather than just go "oops, minor screw up cause I forgot, whoops ^^;"

Press Turns for random factors are stupid though; the series is bad enough for random shit that can kick your ass and there's nothing you can do about it ("Ambushed -> Team is status'd IDed lul, you suck start over" comes to mind), so adding MORE to that is just UGH HATE.  Rewarding you for good luck or punishing you cause the RNG hates you...the fact that you miss/do more damage is enough of a reward/punishment.  This wouldn't be as bad if the game had failsafes like "This move always hits, but it will never crit!" such that can be used as alternatives, but I'm pretty sure even Magic slams evade, you get punished for that, and Magic can't hit crit, good job there.

Thing is, SMT games like to screw this up by forcing Trial and Error on bosses anyway cause your scan sucks, and you end up being punished as a result.  Pretty stupid especially when you get a move reflected back at you; so now you're not only taking damage from your own attack when you have no clue what to use, but you lost a turn? Fantastic...

Seriously, Press Turns aren't bad in and of themselves, but like everything, SMT loves to just not do the simple, easy approach and instead have to do their usual fuck ups to make the system seem worse than it is.

[dude789]

I don't think that the gameplay's bad just that it's not as good as the press turn system or P3 and 4's systems.

Doesn't look too good for SMT:SJ gameplay if it loses out in comparison to press turns - which are honestly a poor design idea that creates a bad balance limitation.

Also, in general, besides the short stint where all you have is Dia/Media, SMT games tend to have healing close enough to full and plentiful enough sources to get it from that slugfesting is generally a complete failure against you unless enemies have OHKO-level offense. It does happen in SMT, of course, and SMT has never been shy about using non-damage related hax, but healing having screwed-up balance has been a part of SMT for god knows how long.

Like Grefter, I think that the press turn system was pretty solid design. It rewarded you for playing smartly and is one of the few systems in rpgs where non-healing defense plays almost as big a role as offense. Also, while SMT healing is effective it usually needed to be because enemies could do a bunch of damage if they got the drop on you and started hitting weaknesses. As far as SJ the dia and diarama skills have been drastically weakened. Dia spells start off healing for about 30 and diarama for about 70, but it was pretty well balanced because enemies do less damage. When you get access to Diarahan though the enemies offense starts to suck, Mediarama still does a fairly good job of keeping up with the enemeis damage, and your characters are starting to get hp in the 300-400 range. Unlike the other games, enemies can't capitalize on press turns or one mores to make up the difference.

[NotMiki]

DDS puts saves in front of bosses, so a little trial and error on them isn't that big a deal, is it?  I prefer bosses that take a little figuring out to scan, hit weakness, win easily, repeat.  Also, by the time ambushes can do you serious damage, there's plenty you can do about them, such as increasing luck or equipping anti-ambush skills.  Part of the strategy of DDS is risk management; planning a strategy that minimizes the damage when luck goes against you.  The game gives you a variety of tools to accomplish those goals: being able to pass for 1/2 press turn, dictating your side's order, etc.

[Taishyr]

Meanwhile, I prefer the SJ system over P3/4 press turns - no annoying hax bullshit on enemy side, PC side can't auto hax win but does get rewarded for hitting weakness. (The system being that hitting weakness is about a 1.25x damage boost (this varies, because Atlus fails at making things consistent); the PC side can, if it has more than one unit of the type hitting weakness, do a follow-up attack for okay damage. Enemy side gets no such bonus, in part possibly because your main character often has a weakness of some sort and that'd just have been stupid. Main death = game over is enough of a balance there, if not still slanted towards enemies.

Also, your main character is a healing god in SMTSJ (again, they kinda failed at balancing non-full heals). ...just ST for most of the game, when most threatening offense is MT anyway. So.

(Media is 40 HP healing. Mediarama is 80. You have more than 80 HP easily by the third area which is just getting out of earlygame, enemy offense keeps up with your HP over Mediarama easily from my own experience. Sooo yeah.)

In fairness, though, enemy offense from randoms has been in a lull overall since sector 5, IMO? So I can see dude's complaint, sure, just... there's still been resets for me, demons still die, etc., so I'm not terribly concerned. It's easier than normal but hardly not challenging, the bosses definitely see to that.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Ehhhh I am not one to defend SMT gameplay at the best of times, but I wouldn't necessarilly call Press Turns poor design, it does what they want it to and it gives them lots of options (It is a good way to enable enemies to triple act), getting press turns on crits that still do 2x damage is overly punishing as is losing a turn because you missed, but the basic concept of getting extra turns for doing the right thing tm is an interesting gameplay twist on a more standard TB combat system.

Yeah, I even see your point there - it's a twist that makes the idea less dull. On the other hand, this seriously limits the sorts of weaknesses bosses get, particularly in P3-4. They can't give stronger enemies like bosses weaknesses lest they want them to fail hardcore - even in DDS, giving bosses weaknesses that can be exploited made them pretty bad, and the few P3-4 bosses who -had- weaknesses failed beyond belief. It's a mechanic that exists solely for randoms on the PC offense strategy end, and it's rather broken as it stands. It also overemphasizes elemental weaknesses in lieu of other stratagems. I guess calling it poor design flat out is a bit unfair, but it's a very limiting choice in the long run that ultimately lowers the game's depth from a design standpoint unless implemented in a very tight manner.

Also:

DDS puts saves in front of bosses, so a little trial and error on them isn't that big a deal, is it? 

The problem with DDS trial and error isn't on bosses, who are almost universally colossal wimps, it's on randoms, who borderline require scanning anyway and are the ones who tend to hax you out over and over from missing/critting.

[Grefter]

I can't speak for press turn system in P3-4 since I haven't played 4 and my opinion on 3 is well documented (from memory that made it so the enemy like lost its turn? Yeah that isn't really the Press Turn system that was interesting enough in SMT3 and DDS).  So those are not really going to be a part of my argument.

Shock at shitty game with shitty shit shit gameplay and shitty everything being shitty though.

[Cmdr_King]

I think the biggest issue with DDS was punishing hitting resists too harshly (... did they also penalize you for misses?  I can't remember, if they did that can fuck right off).  You do have to play around to figure out each enemy, so punishing you harshly for experimenting is pretty dumb.

That said, like so many games DDS suffers from "utter dull sloggy slog until FINALLY there's a boss fight.  Boss fight is fun".  Well, that and non-existent plot pacing, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.

Edit: I felt like Oz, in addition to the Ratio thing, also rose above the DQ mold via character variety.  Except... well, like I said at the time I felt like the game ended just when it was getting into full swing, that way.  The late skills are really a lot cooler than the early one and it's too bad you don't get another dungeon or so (complete with boss, off course) to really play with them.  I suppose there is aftergame but I get the distinct impression that doesn't even count and is an exercise in hunting down rare equips, not abusing abusable battle system and broken skills.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I think the biggest issue with DDS was punishing hitting resists too harshly (... did they also penalize you for misses?  I can't remember, if they did that can fuck right off).

Yes they did! DDS is a sterling example on how to do annoying design on purpose.

EDIT:

As for Oz, you get... two dungeons to play with the endgame skills (Snow Castle and Yellow Brick Road), which honestly feels enough (frankly, more and it'd have gotten kinda boring anyway. Game knows when to end). Three if you're nuts, but if you grinded to the point you beat Ju Kaku 2 -before- Holly, I don't think the rest of the game will really stand up to you very well.

EDIT 2: On the other hand, the later game skills -are- funner than the earlygame ones. You start getting the more interesting stuff by Gou Yoku and Ju Kaku gives you the cream of the crop for all but Strawman, and even he gets Purifying Wind out of Ju Kaku (and, if nothing else, dispel is crucial against Ju Kaku 2 -and- Oz). Strawman's biggest money, as far as I'm concerned, lies on Tomato Bomb and First Wind. Fox Hunt is neat, but its synergy gets expensive for randoms and, besides Protea and Ju Kaku, WAoO bosses draw their strongest offense from magic. I also like Plunder, but its inaccuracy at stealing is a bit of a downer (oh well, it deals acceptable damage).

[Cmdr_King]

Hm.  I remember only getting the final skills right before Protea, myself.  Though obviously you can get them earlier.  Or ... yaeh, I think I did the penultimate skills for Holly, then the final for Protea. 

I just remember fighting Oz and feeling like "heyyyy, I can do some cool shit now" then realizing the game was over.  It was sorta sad.

[Meeplelard]

DDS only penalized you if you hit Nulls or higher, I think.  resistance, you just did less damage, shrugged and moved on; you didn't lose Press Turns there.  The same applied to PCs; a resisted attack merely means you take less, the enemies don't lose turns.

This is why those Void spells were so significant, cause yeah, MT Ice Move still hits Serph, but resisting means shit for Press Turns; Nulling, now, that's a big deal!

But yeah, doesn't change the fact that the game punishes you for having to experiment and one slight futz up can kill you in an SMT if the game hates you enough.

[Talaysen]

On the other hand, this seriously limits the sorts of weaknesses bosses get, particularly in P3-4. They can't give stronger enemies like bosses weaknesses lest they want them to fail hardcore - even in DDS, giving bosses weaknesses that can be exploited made them pretty bad, and the few P3-4 bosses who -had- weaknesses failed beyond belief.

They can and did.  By making them have low HP and resisting all elements besides their "weak" elements.  P3 had a few bosses like this.  Not to mention the "weakness" tag is separate from how much damage they take anyway.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Those were still completely mauled by just weakness-locking them. "Lest they want to fail hardcore" clause applies. Less so in P4, but it didn't help much.

[Cmdr_King]

Well, as I recall it had a scale.  Hitting a null lost you one press turn, hitting a reflect two, hitting an absorb three.  Considering that in the latter two cases you just hurt yourself or healed the enemy, additional penalties seem excessive.  The merits of losing an attack when hitting a null of any sort is debatable, but more than one is clearly excessive.  

[superaielman]

You are full of it on this one, Snow. P4 had some goddamn hard bosses, and some of the hardest ones were the ones with elemental weaknesses. They had both the durability to deal with hitting a weakness, and the ability to hit weaknesses back at you.

[Taishyr]

And I guess that's part of why I like SJ a lot - the only bosses who've lacked elemental weaknesses are the ones I'd expect to for spoiler reasons. Everything else has had a weakness you could actually use to speed up fights with, but it doesn't terribly maul their durability because you don't get extra turns, just an extra bonus smack in if you meet the conditions.

[Cmdr_King]

Bosses having weaknesses matter far less in Persona 4.  They were immune to stun, so you just got the one more/all out attack out of it.  Even if they could be stunned, that's just one turn off before they come back and attack again.

This is because Persona 3 did not work this way.  You didn't have to hit weakness twice and inflict a special status to keep enemies down; recovering from being knocked down consumed a turn.  While hitting a knocked down enemy removed Knocked Down status, well... the abuse should be obvious.  And this is why they had to make Persona 3 bosses they didn't want to be jokes (say, Nyx Avatar) immune to knock down status; otherwise they never got turns.  But this also meant that the entire Once more system was effectively removed, which is dumb of course since without that you're basically DQ level.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You are full of it on this one, Snow. P4 had some goddamn hard bosses, and some of the hardest ones were the ones with elemental weaknesses. They had both the durability to deal with hitting a weakness, and the ability to hit weaknesses back at you.

Which strong boss in P4 had weaknesses? The baby plant in Kanji's dungeon revisited certainly didn't qualify. None of the plot bosses were saddled with elemental weaknesses - only resistances and immunities. The hardest optional dungeon boss was Crimson King, which had no weaknesses either. Shadow Yosuke and Shadow Chie were utter trash - although maybe the Knight with borderline OHKO damage has a weakness (don't think he did - he was kinda frail to begin with, with a weakness that durability issue would've been more pronounced). The mid-dungeon bosses were generally unimpressive, and those would be the ones that have weaknesses - and they start getting noticeably bad by the Strip Club. Of course, hitting weakness in P4 matters less, but I digress.

Some randoms had durability enough to not get insta-owned by getting their weakness hit, but it mattered less in P4 with you getting One Mores by hitting any weakness in the fray, so even hitting a single weakness gave you an extra go against the entire enemy group, re-emphasizing the ownage of MT against randoms.

[Talaysen]

Those were still completely mauled by just weakness-locking them. "Lest they want to fail hardcore" clause applies. Less so in P4, but it didn't help much.

No no no no.

The bosses had no "weakness".  They were strong to most elements and neutral to others, and had low HP to compensate.  It simulates a "weakness" without letting you weakness lock them.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Those were still completely mauled by just weakness-locking them. "Lest they want to fail hardcore" clause applies. Less so in P4, but it didn't help much.

No no no no.

The bosses had no "weakness".  They were strong to most elements and neutral to others, and had low HP to compensate.  It simulates a "weakness" without letting you weakness lock them.

Oh, sure - and that's a fair enough point - but that -still- undermines the actual press turns system set for weaknesses altogether, which was supposed to be the differential for modern SMT. Setting the knockdown/press turn weakness system on bosses does them an inordinate amount of ill, which is a problem when the game itself sets its bases heavily on this system.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Press Turns and One Mores still work against the PCs. Instead of thinking of the system only as something to abuse, it's also another challenge to overcome.

Still better than DQ.

[Just Another Day]

Still chugging away at Valkyria aftergame; got A rankings in all the story maps. The hard missions are hard, really enjoying them.

Playing FF1 for the PSP; I've never actually played any version of the game all the way through before. Just finished the first run through the Earth Cave. Enjoying it, although it's certainly not a game I would ever really notice in this day and age.

Went Fighter/Thief/White Mage/Black Mage, for no particular reason other than it seemed a good way to experience the range the game has to offer (full range of spells, close to full range of equipment). Probably shoulda gone Fighter/Black Belt/Thief/Red Mage to suit how I seem to be playing the game, but anyhow. I doubt I'll replay it.

Really just an artifact of its age, of course, but the lack of class diversity feels pretty strange... There's exactly one heavy armour class, one medium armour class, one light armour class, and two (!) non-armoured classes. That's weird, to me, and it's strange that when I pick up medium armour it has no conceivable use other than selling. Dunno why, just feels like something that wouldn't happen in a modern game. We have become weak.

(so weak that we play pansyass watered-down versions of games where you actually retarget if the enemy you'd chosen to attack dies in the interim, rather than stabbing the air like a man)

Game desperately needs an autobattle function.

Thief is probably the lvp so far; slight offense advantage over the fighter just doesn't make up for the gap in durability.

I'm inclined to hoard MP, which makes White Mage and Black Mage seem kinda useless sometimes, but Black Mage dishes so much pain when I remember to try that I forgive her, and there really just aren't realistic MP shortage issues when her magic is used with any amount of discretion.

Money's so tight early in the game that White Mage gets something of a pass just  for saving on potions and status healing and whatnot, but MP is more of an issue there, definitely, and she feels a lot like dead-weight limping out of dungeons without MP. Lots of undead enemies early in the game help, though, and spells like Life plus more affordable ethers will keep me interested later on, I'm sure.

Fighter is solid, no complaints. Beats out thief for offense during some agility windows. He'd be expensive to maintain, except even old armour gives him such ludicrous durability (basically nulls damage that 3-5hkos other party members, plus shield evade and decent class evade) that it seems less pertinent. Plus you get quite a bit of equipment from treasure chests. Total mvp, hard to see how this'd change.

[Meeplelard]

Do note that FF1 PSP is watered down in difficulty in more ways than you can imagine (at least, I believe its the same as the GBA version with one aftergame dungeon and BETTAR GRAFIX!), so keep that in mind when people complain about things that you may find hard to understand, such as "The game is really hard!" or whatever.  This applies for a comparison against the NES version and Origins one.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

SH2 - HEY GUYZE YURI HAS A JOKER FUSION AND A GACKT FUSION

[Just Another Day]

Do note that FF1 PSP is watered down in difficulty in more ways than you can imagine (at least, I believe its the same as the GBA version with one aftergame dungeon and BETTAR GRAFIX!), so keep that in mind when people complain about things that you may find hard to understand, such as "The game is really hard!" or whatever.  This applies for a comparison against the NES version and Origins one.

Definitely understood. I've played quite a bit of the original version, though I never finished it. I was young enough that any evaluation I might have of its difficulty is suspect, of course (years before I got stuck on Ultros, both his first and second forms ), but the differences are still pretty evident.

[superaielman]

the knight is the boss I'm thinking of, yeah. I didn't find bosses to really get easy in any sense until after Mitsuo and even then you could wipe if you had bad luck. P4's weakness system is cool because most of the fights have some way to crack them, which you need to do since randoms are very competent until late in the game. Ignoring Adachi and Shadow Teddie, I don't think any of the bosses were really cakewalks unless you have Trumpeer or Yoshi for the final arc. The dungeons are very good at draining resources even when you know what you doing, and that fucking thief of a fox only becomes reasonable later on.