Author Topic: Fire Emblem levels in the DL  (Read 3814 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« on: January 08, 2010, 05:17:38 PM »
I've tossed this around with a few people in chat at various points in the past, but might as well make a topic about it. This is what happens when I don't have work.

Anyway, the basic idea is that in Fire Emblem (not the only game this may apply to, but the subject of this topic anyway), some characters join at much higher or lower levels than others, and taking everyone at equal levels does nothing to reflect this. Unlike most games where levels even out as the game goes on (Suikoden, for instance), in FE this doesn't happen naturally; if Nino is given the same treatment as everyone else she will still be behind on levels at the end of the game.

The basic argument is that it is unfair to give underlevelled characters more resources and overlevelled characters less. In PS4 we take everyone at equal experience (after they join, at least). Logically in FE we should do the same. This means giving everyone equal numbers of kills, as well as Bonus Experience for the games in which it applies.

I am aware there are arguments for equal levels and have myself made them - namely that it's arguably a better use of your resources to catch underlevelled PCs up. On the flipside, doing so does cause the rest of your army's levels to suffer slightly, meaning that the level disadvantage always exists in some form unless powerlevelling occurs and this is usually not considered.

Anyway, this topic exists for two reasons. One is to discuss the idea in general. The second is because I have a poll/question of sorts.


The main reason that I don't yet vote this way is because it's quite a bit of work to figure out what level everyone "should" be at. Still, I'm quite willing to do it, when I have some free time. I'll be focussing particularly on FE9 and FE10 first, because those games reward underlevelled PCs much less in the Exp formula, i.e. level differences are more important and last longer (GBA games give +3.33 Exp per level underlevelled, the Tellius games give only +1.5). Of course, these happen to be the games with Bonus Experience.

Now, as my rambling comes to a close, it's obvious that for regular, Combat Exp, PCs only get Exp in maps they actually exist in. I mean, duh. For Bonus Exp, it's less obvious what the right thing to do is. Two options here:

1. After each battle, take the Bonus Exp and divide it among the PCs being used who are currently being used and available. This means that PCs who join late will get less Bonus Exp overall because they only get a share of Bonus Exp obtained in later maps.

2. All PCs who are used get an equal share of Bonus Exp, and if they aren't available early it is stored up for them.


Now, for FE9, I find myself leaning towards #2, but am certainly open to #1 as well, since #2 arguably wastes a lot of Bonus Exp while it sits around if you're waiting for, say, Largo. For FE10, #2 is problematic because you use much more than just a single planned party of 10-12 units, so it isn't really clear what "all PCs who are used" even means. This makes me lean towards #1 for FE10, but taking #1 in its pure form leads to relatively silly situations where a PC may be screwed out of a large amount of Bonus Exp because he or she misses one map after you get a particularly large amount (particularly egregious for Geoffrey et al. after Geoffrey's Charge, since that map is worth a massive amount of Bonus Exp and Geoffrey's knights have to work extra hard to get it). I dunno.


So yeah, any thoughts here would be appreciated.

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OblivionKnight

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2010, 05:36:29 PM »
OK Opinion:

I've never been a huge fan of this myself.  I'd take all people at the same level (and would for stuff like PS4, SitD, I've just been too lazy to do the work on it...though I'm correcting that for SitD soon) for all games (except where it''s not possible in some cases).  I always assume general variability in players - for example, a player might use Nino because she's cute, and give the experience to her heavily.  Of course it's not 100% practical, but it's the individual playstyle, and people, I always assume, will play the way they want to (and thusly vote).

OK Speaking to the Topic at Hand and Ignoring His Own Opinion:

Question: How do you define "used"?  Is it all available?  Is it based on dividing the number of characters totally available divided by the number that can be use total in a chapter and then dividing the experience based on that?  The term itself sounds very subjective itself, so is there are real, hardcore definition for it you have?  I think pinning down a definition for that will help a lot.

Assuming it's the second thing I postulated, I would assume part 2 for everyone - level advantages will still be maintained, and it doesn't completely screw people over (which...can happen with the first - of course, if you do want to accentuate these differences, I would assume the first one then, since that's what it does).
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2010, 05:51:08 PM »
Yeah, part of the problem is that "used" is something with a hazy definition. For non-FE10 games, I meant it to refer to the main party of PCs the player is using, i.e. those who will turn out in such a way we'd consider DL-relevant (so Raven used every map from when you get him = "used", but Marcus who is used as filler early on and dropped midgame is not). For FE10, you have to "use" a lot of PCs who aren't bound for the final party, though, due to splitpathiness.

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alanna82

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2010, 01:34:46 AM »
I take everyone at the same level (20/20 or ??/20 for FE) If you are going to use a character, if they are underleveled, I tend to let them get kills until they "catch up" to the other party members. I tend to do this for most games out there. Once they catch up, I stop the "favoritism" Even if you dont "use" an FE character, its still pretty easy to calculate average statistics if you know the growths and the system and stuff.

This is the only fair way to take things in the DL to me. The only exceptions are things like Gadwin from Grandia where he starts at level 30 and is a temp, so he is never even leveled with my party. The only FE temp I can recall is the Black Knight, and well... yeah... FE10 might be hard to apply to the even leveling rule, but still, you have bonus experience.

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2010, 01:38:59 AM »
I also think taking everyone at the same level is best for all of the games. Nino joins right before very a few very unit heavy maps and I'm sure that the Limstella map has enough surplus units for her to catch up, especially with the underleveled exp bonus. FE8 has unlimited exp through randoms so that's not a problem. I'd need to replay FE9 to get a better read on it, but I'm currently playing through FE10 and I think that same endgame level is the only sane way to do levels for that game. Almost every character has a different situation as far as exp and availability goes.

Here are just some of the situations that result in different endgame levels
-start out unpromoted and never really catch up to those in second or third promotions (most of the DB)
-start out overleveled and then leave for most of the game (Tormond and his allies and to a lesser extent Geoffrey)
-start out overleveled and are available for most of the game once you get them (Titania, Elincia)
-player chooses which maps the unit goes to (Jill, Zihark)
These are just some of the problems that skew FE10 endgame levels and this isn't even getting into the multiple paragon scrolls the game gives you and how Laguz get different amounts of experience for whether they're transformed or not.
 

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2010, 05:18:09 AM »
Well, I'm willing to work with the massive complications to try to come up with something, because I agree, without the work invested it is just too hopeless. I intend to do that work unless there's really no interest in this.

But basically, in FE10, I do think it's right that Titania is higher levelled in endgame than Tormod since that's what will happen unless you blatantly favour one of them and the DL isn't about blatant favouritism.


***

You can feed Nino lots of kills if you want but you can also feed Marcus lots of kills. Under all situations where Nino and Marcus are given equal kills Marcus ends up at a higher level, except when both hit 20/20, and the fact that the stat topics don't use 20/20 suggests that this would be beyond endgame (which I agree with). Granted, Nino is the only person strongly affected by this in FE7 due to the underlevelled catchup, and furthermore does have a tangible reward for levelling Nino if you care about rankings, so I'm not as concerned with it as I am the Tellius games.

FE8 does have unlimited exp but this only matters if you see everyone at 20/20, which is more reasonable than in any other FE at least. But if you don't, then you are assuming finite exp and thus unequal levels due to equal kills becomes possible.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2010, 09:22:34 AM »
This idea has great appeal to me given that I just can't take Nino at an equal level. But...maybe it's just that my problem was that you really need to set Nino up to a notable degree. But still, I think even with a good number of BExp levels, Elinicia still lags behind a few levels in FE 9, so this has some validity still. I guess it's really big outliers/setups that make me gutcheck like that. Granted, given that FE 10 is supposed to worst on that (And they nerfed BExp levels up? Which would definetely kill the underlevelled characters, since that's the type of thing I reserved for the underlevelled), I could see this being more important there. It would be an interesting view at the least.
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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2010, 05:54:47 PM »
While the principle behind this is certainly justifiable, I'm always wary of making DL interps (both my personal ones and what's generally held) even more complex than they already are, especially if they end up significantly so. Aside from the risk of making the DL completely impenetrable for newcomers (assuming we even get any these days, admittedly), I worry that making the consensus views too complex will risk obscuring the underlying reasonings behind any particular interp call, at which point it becomes a lot easier to make arbitrary judgments with singular casts to make them "more interesting", at which point there's a non-negligical risk that someone or another will make arbitrary calls to benefit their personal favorites and/or punish loathed duellers. There's also a genral risk of the DL becoming as arcane and indecipherable as the average Congressional spending bill, which will completely ward off any newcomers and probably steadily erode the base as well.

As a theoretical exercise I'd have interest in this sort of exp scaling, but I wouldn't ever vote on something like this, I'd rather just give a level bonus/penalty for especially egregious cases like Nino. We already sorta do this for people who join overlevelled like Renault and Athos. I'd also worry about newcomers either finding the entire thing offputting via complexity or (much less likely, but maybe if they're a hardcore FE10 nut) possibly nitpicking your assumptions endlessly and putting doubt on the whole process for onlookers who aren't as familiar with the game.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2010, 06:08:09 PM »
I think this is an interesting idea because it rewards people for being around more and being less of a pain in the ass to level. I already give Nino the finger, so that case doesn't matter too much to me, but I think it is much more fair to reward people for have ease-of-use than just levelling everyone to 20/20, which plan doesn't happen unless you grind in Arenas or grind in the tower in FE8. I even think the 20/15 levels for the games are on the high side; in FE8, a game which I even did a little grinding (Amelia), none of my units ended up over 20/11 so I take the cast at 20/10.

I am interested in this because it's a non-favoritism way of rewarding units who are more present. I'd like to see the actual effects that it has (like say, if early low-levelled people suffer at all) though.
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SnowFire

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2010, 06:41:26 PM »
I support the idea but am not wholly into math-nerding out exactly how much of a penalty should go to each person - there are too many variables for how everyone's "rightful" share of the DL experience should be calculated.  The most I can say is that for FE, this assumes every character is part of the "main party-" assume you used Marcus the whole game and gave him a moderate amount of kills when determining Marcus's proper endgame level, for example.

Honestly, I'm happy with just slapping a "feels-rightish" stat penalty on Nino (maybe ~5 levels or so shy of everyone else?).  Flip side, someone like Duessel from FE8 should get a level bonus (I prefer the 20/12 averages anyway, and he comes at 20/8 with a decent number of missions remaining...).  Exactly how much is subject to interp; I'm sure the stat growths can be looked up so that once the level penalty/bonus is determined.  I think this was noted in the Shadow Dragon thread that Elice, being an unpromoted lvl. 10 gotten stupidly late in the game, has to have SOME sort of level penalty so let's arbitrarily say 20/1.  Fair enough.

This of course raises a very important issue: is underlevel Nino a KUJA SPOILER?!!!1!

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 02:33:53 AM »
Not to mention FE8 General spoiler, 1% Great Shield hype!

Ahem.

So yeah. Would anyone else like to weigh in on the fair way to handle Bonus Exp? i.e. does Largo deserve an equal share of Bonus Exp compared to Boyd? Thinking on it more I am definitely leaning towards no, and whatever I decide I could always do both calculations, buuut I'd rather do the one that more people support given that there's a fair bit of work involved.


Also, as a general clarification, this is really nothing more than alternate intrepretation. I know some people will continue to use equal levels. That's fine. I just think it would be nice (and for the math nerd in me, really interesting) to have some justifiable numbers for the interp which I know a few people already support.

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 02:54:21 AM »
I'd agree with you on that no, NEB. Unsure if I accept the concept as a whole but it's a cool idea at the minimum and I might end up finding it more palatable than the current interps.

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 12:53:10 PM »
I mentioned in chat that I'm gonna be taking even levels anyways, but I'll at least chime in. I'd say giving characters Bonus Exp when they're there only makes more sense - so, no, I'd say Boyd should get much more Bonus Exp than Largo.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 11:35:09 PM »
The more I think about this the more I like it. Also, Boyd deserves Bonus EXP more than Largo.
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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 11:37:41 PM »
Yeah, go with Method 1.
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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2010, 01:35:45 AM »
What's the specific Boyd versus Largo argument? Something FE 10ish, or just the standard in the party longer = more bonus EXP?
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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2010, 06:31:30 AM »
Strikes me (I only saw FE10 while my little brother was playing it) that evening out the party's levels to a limited extent could be considered the purpose on Bonus Experience, i.e. it's intended for the underleveled so that the underleveled don't stay that way.  (Or at least not to the extent were Bonus Exp not to exist).

And, as a player plays, holding out Bonus Experience without a specific reason is folly. And many of those reasons are favoritism or challenges.

Personally, how I would handle Standard Experience (in any game) is that for each mission/area/etc. there is a basic amount of raw experience.  If a character is mandatory for that section, they get a full share.  "Available" characters get a fractional share of what's left depending on available slots/available characters.  Bonus experience can also be used this way except that no character is "mandatory" for this purpose, all present are "available".

So I'd go with option 1 as a starting point.  But then you'd have to reason out whether Bonus Experience is enough to achieve level equality or whether to pursue that goal in the first place.

Now, this is all the "raw" experience.  For FE, I'm thinking that "raw" experience would be measured as a Level 1 Pre-Promote and converted to the appropriate level for true experience.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 06:53:22 AM »
What's the specific Boyd versus Largo argument? Something FE 10ish, or just the standard in the party longer = more bonus EXP?

It's just a random extreme example; one of the first characters to join vs. one of the last in the same class~. Largo isn't even playable in 10.
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 07:19:16 AM »
Oh. Well, I basically used Bexp similar to how SirDonald mentioned it. Pump up the underlevelled. Of course, the fact that it went further numerically (As in, they used less of it to level up once, although the other interp would also apply. If BExp spread evenly irregardless of level, I can only imagine it would have altered my use of it).
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alanna82

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2010, 10:14:46 PM »
I use Bonus experience to level up Mist and or Rolf, and then Elincia and or Ena. (FE9) The only other use would be to "top off" a characters level if they are extremely close to gaining. Equal bonus experience to all characters just feels wrong to me.

Just for fun, once I hoarded all my BEXP and gave it to Fiona so I could take her to end game. There may not be enough to get everyone to max level, but once you pick 12 or so characters, they tend to max out, thus my "everyone at the same level" approach.

And yes, Boyd does get more bonus exp than Largo. I got Largo up to max level without bonus EXP, Boyd might need it to reach max level since he starts lower leveled. (dont ask why I was using Largo)


Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2010, 10:21:39 PM »
So yeah, FE9 topic using this interp was posted today.

Overall, not much changes... in particular the averages remain almost exactly where they are. People with high levels get better (Titania looks less than ever like she should have been in Light), people with low levels get worse (Elincia wants her FE10 form, news at 11). Most of the ranked cast is Level 14-16 (compared to the old 15) so virtually no change. Pretty much exactly as expected. Obviously people are free to prefer either the new or the old stats, but hey, at least both of them are out there.

Not sure which FE will be my project to do this for next, feel free to suggest!

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2010, 10:47:01 PM »
FE7 for delicious Ciato fanservice (a.k.a. Nino anti-hype).
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2010, 09:15:40 AM »
I concur for much the same reason!
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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2010, 06:41:36 AM »
Due to lack of Gamecube I dunno about FE9 and FE10, which this seems to be mainly about... but as for FE7 and FE8.

I don't like the idea.  In those games if you use everyone, you end up with a cast of weak ass wimps that can't hurt the final boss for crap.  In Fire Emblem 7 and 8 you choose your 10-12 people to use, and you level them up.  It doesn't matter if it's Eliwood, Marcus, or Nino.  If you want to use that person, you level them.  This means 2/3 of your cast ends the game sucking, and 1/3 of the cast will be 20/15+

Trying to find some level scaling method in the DL doesn't make sense to me for those 2 games because that's not how the game works.  I can kind of see the case for Nino... since you do get her pretty damn late, but anyone that wants to use her can level her with stupid ease because they basically set up a level for her and she is getting insane experience.  I could even argue that it's easier to level her than Marcus.  You use him for one fight and realize, "shit, this guy hogs exp" and then you forget about him unless you randomly decide "Hey, maybe Marcus gets XP now!"  Nino actually has plot before you get her (something 90% of the people don't have) and it becomes obvious instantly that she levels at an insane speed.  It sounds like a silly argument, but I bet if you took a poll here more people got Nino to 20/15+ than Marcus because he was a ridiculous waste of xp early game.  (Basing that final sentence off of the 3 people I know IRL who played FE7... could be different here I guess.)

Sooo yeah, in conclusion, doesn't seem like it's intuitive to how FE7 or FE8 is played.  If 9 and 10 have a lot less random characters, I could see it being more relevant.

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Re: Fire Emblem levels in the DL
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2010, 06:50:04 AM »
I think you misunderstand the point of this. I'm not suggesting you level everyone equally, I'm suggesting you pick your given party (as everyone does) and level them equally. Basically, Marcus will always have more Exp than Nino assuming both are used (and used equally), so having a method that reflects that seems fair.

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