Should the Main Tournament Shut Down?

[Dark Holy Elf]

I am pretty opposed to a season of team matches. The RPGP tried the same thing late in its life and it was murder on its votedraw. Simply put, team matches do not generate anywhere near the interest that one-on-one matches do. Heck, we see this every season in week 6. Maybe it's because there are just more variables and it creates situations where it becomes easier to gutcheck for one side than actually think and analyse about the opponents and how they interact. I'm not sure. Just has definitely been my experience.

Team matches aren't even that popular a staple on tournament boards, to be honest. Scanning the two most recent pages... List, Tourney of Interest, Twink League, Proving Grounds types... it's almost all variants on one-on-one, that's clearly what is more popular. The only exception is Nyarly's and I don't think that would work well on the main site (and has a very different focus than the traditional team match anyway).

[Taishyr]

Okay.

Do you have any suggestions for a better idea or format, then?

[Dark Holy Elf]

No, not really.

Note that I'm not opposed to many of the minor changes being floated around here. But I am somewhat against just killing the tournament off (or transmuting it into something completely different). It does still attract new people. Only reason I'd support killing it off is if the people doing the site work don't want to do it any more. Which is cool. The site's always been a little volunteer project. If the people doing the lifting don't want to continue and nobody steps up to replace them, it dies.

Until then, why kill it?

[~ZecHtSpeed~]

No! please don't shut down the DL main tournament!

im new her, but im already following the DL almost over  1 year, and i think RPGDL is the most intresting site among the similiar site, maybe what RPGDL need is a set of new fighter from next gen console to join rumble in the arena...please keep up this tournament!!

[Lance]

Lance... I like how you go on and on about change, but you "swat down" the only suggestion that's been made that would actually be a -change- (even though a minor one) to the site.

1.) It was a decent suggestion, sure. I just don't think it would do much good since not everyone places the same amount of importance on the stat topics.
2.) There's a difference between outright swatting down a suggestion and pointing out that you're not a fan of it. I was pointing out that I was not a fan of it.
3.) Even if I did swat down the idea, what difference would it make? I'm not a staff member. I don't regularly contribute to the site. My voice carries very little weight here.

[NotMiki]

A few thoughts:

I should preface this: I often forget to vote, but I love to wrangle with a good interpretive issue, and I truly enjoy seeing my favorite characters duel.  Everything I say is from my personal perspective as a voter.

The DL covers a lot of games, and even for games I've played I'm not always comfortable voting on every duelist, so I think team matches would be a bad idea.  Except!  I wouldn't mind seeing a week between seasons of something different.  Team matches might be cool for that.  Bonus matches would be, too.  Your regular DL week is a lot of writing, and frankly I don't read all that much of it, especially matches I can't vote on, and as the years and handheld RPGs progress that has become quite a few.  Bonus matches are another matter entirely, and I wager they may be more fun to write (and require less research on the part of both writer and reader to puzzle through), so long as that writing is in moderation.

I think the main tournament should continue to operate more or less in the same format it has.

In terms of the grind on writers, might a change in the number of entrants help things out?  Try this: cut the field in half, so you only have one brutal week of writing per season instead of three, and increase the number of seasons a duelist is ineligible after getting in.  Also, don't be bashful about taking a week off between seasons.

As far as writeups are concerned, I read the ones for fights I'm going to vote on and ones that seem like they may be interesting.  I look to writeups for tactical info: what is character x's best shot, importantly does character x resist status y, and if there is any controversy of interpretation about anything important (for example with Tir's deadly fingertips), I like a heads up about that too.  I don't mind if they're shortened, as long as they still tell me the things I want to know.

So: keep the tournament essentially the same, but with possibly a shorter schedule, throw in bonus matches as an alternative to a week of writeups, and don't be bashful about taking a week off between seasons (I say a week instead of more because we all know that a three-week break is tantamount to permanent closure).

[Dhyerwolf]

NEB basically covers mostly anything I'd say in his posts, so there isn't much to add besides approval! I guess I should note that working behind the scenes kind of killed my wanting to read the DL stuff. After all, I already knew what had happened for a whole day before the update! I too also sometimes forget to vote because I post in the season topic and then wait to see if some argument comes up to make me change my mind!

As the person who may be the most fanatical about stat topics, I'm not sure how you could really take focus off the DL, but onto stat topics. So many of them are crafted to essentially be a snapshot of how characters function at a specific time (There are of course ones that go farther, but taking it farther generally feels like mapping out BMG for games, most of which are either too secretive, unknown, or headache inducing). But I feel like my current annoyance at SN could be factoring into that heavily.

What super said, basically. Plus, I must point out I've been bitched at before for voting based on personal recollection instead of following the stat topics, which shows that there's no consistent opinion on whether the state topics should be "official" or not.

In fairness, most people are okay with people going heavily on personal recollection. It's when something way out there comes up and the only reason the person has is personal recollection that people will tend to jump on it.

[superaielman]

Lance... I like how you go on and on about change, but you "swat down" the only suggestion that's been made that would actually be a -change- (even though a minor one) to the site.

1.) It was a decent suggestion, sure. I just don't think it would do much good since not everyone places the same amount of importance on the stat topics.
2.) There's a difference between outright swatting down a suggestion and pointing out that you're not a fan of it. I was pointing out that I was not a fan of it.
3.) Even if I did swat down the idea, what difference would it make? I'm not a staff member. I don't regularly contribute to the site. My voice carries very little weight here.

You've been around for years and vote pretty regularly. You are exactly the type of person we want feedback from about this.

Suggestions that sound interesting so far and have gotten universal agreement:

1. If a match doesn't have comments and no one really feels like adding one, we just go without for that match.
2. Taking a week break after every season for a breather.

Am I missing anything?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

One other possible suggestion that might be implementable is spreading the matches a bit further so we don't get behemoth four-dueller-per-division weeks, but that's likely to hurt votedraw appeal even further - we know how badly voting rights end when we only have two matches per division from NR, and the risk of ruining entire seasons just goes up a bit much. I'd like to see another possible way to reduce the grind in update time, though. 

[Yoshiken]

In terms of the grind on writers, might a change in the number of entrants help things out?  Try this: cut the field in half, so you only have one brutal week of writing per season instead of three, and increase the number of seasons a duelist is ineligible after getting in.  Also, don't be bashful about taking a week off between seasons.

This. Seeing the same duelists winning every damn season gets old, and no doubt a lot of matches have been repeated. Think we need an influx of FWs from a number of already-ranked games and, more importantly, longer between seasons for duelists.
Even if it's just spacing the season a little, like Snow said, something to cut down the amount of work each week would be ideal. Is it really necessary to have 16 matches in Weeks 1-3? Probably not. If it were up to me, I'd probably say to just cut it down to 8 matches a week max, make the season last a little longer, and have two weeks between seasons instead of just the one for re-ranking.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

There is the issue that spreading the seasons thinner also lowers the overall vote draw potential, so it's easier to come up with weeks where people just plain can't vote. That kills interest even faster, and honestly isn't very fun, as NR proved time and again. On the other hand, there is overall more vote draw in the DL than in NR, so the problem may not be as big.

[Halbarad]

All right, here come the rebuttals. I'm going to be harsh and ask people to back up their assertions here - and if you can't, I would suggest that you reevaluate those assertions. In essence, I want people to sell me on why the tourney should be kept on the main site (and nostalgia, momentum, or tradition not really acceptable answers here), as I honestly do not see anything of value that it's bringing in at this point. I have no objections to it continuing to run in some form (such as on the forums), but the negatives are far outweighing the positives in regards to keeping it going outside that venue.

Super and others have stated that the tourney still brings in new people - I do not believe this is accurate, nor has been so for at least a couple of years. I would challenge you to provide me with at least two names of people that have joined up with the group in the last two years that came here SPECIFICALLY FOR THE TOURNAMENT - most of the newer faces I've seen found the site through searches for RPG stats or information in general, or forum games, or other sources. Those newer folks may participate in the tourney, but they didn't come here for it, and I don't think anyone has come here for it specifically in a very long time.

From a quick review, it appears that recent vote totals have been hovering around 65 votes a week (discounting some of the low totals for holiday weeks). How many votes of those would be lost if super did not specifically remind people to vote? The estimate I've heard is between 15 and 20 votes, and if a third of the voting base lacks enough interest to continue voting without that prompting, is it really holding people's attention?

Most people here have stated "I still like it" in regards to the tournament; while I appreciate the sentiment, and that's great, is that like really enough to continue putting the writers and editors through knotholes every week as they try to keep things going for the site? The notion of discontinuing results has been forwarded as a way to cut down on some of the burnout, but it's not going to solve the entire issue; from what I remember in talks with Tai and Snow the editing for the match writeups can be just as much a burnout-inducing drag - and if there are no writeups at all, what's the point of keeping things on the main site? I honestly don't see anything that's likely to reverse the trend of disinterest or burnout; the most you're going to see is the burnout getting moved around to other folks currently in the group until we run out of people willing to write or edit, and then we're at this exact same point again. I'd prefer to get the problem dealt with before it becomes an absolute necessity, and hopefully head off the possibility of people falling away from the group simply because they're sick of the work.

More on killing results. While I don't at all object to Sage halting the missing comments writeups (it's a herculean job, and he's done amazing work in keeping them going for this long), I also think that removing them is going to kill what little casual interest remains in the site. If you're not that big into the mechanics and stats, the results have been the one place where you could get a good chuckle - things like Magical Girl Ghaleon, Cooker 8, or the adventures of the pervert squad have been great amusement as they've come and gone, and I suspect some of those are as much responsible for holding some folks' interest as the voting or discussion of the matches themselves. With those gone, or massively reduced (as it sounds like the site might see a handful of results writeups per week at best), there's no extra hook towards keeping people here.

And finally, keeping the tourney on the main site has the drawback of keeping something -else- from being there. I'd love to see some of the creativity that's running around here get turned towards the problem of what to do with the site without the main tournament focus - I think it's something that can be solved, and still bring people in; I've suggested turning the stat topics into the site focus, as one idea, and I'm sure there are others that could be advanced. But as long as the tournament occupies top billing, it's easier for people to be complacent, go with the idea that "it's good enough", and let things continue on the slow downward slide they've been on for some time.

So there's your challenge: Don't tell me why we shouldn't kill the tourney; tell me why we should keep it.

[Yoshiken]

I would challenge you to provide me with at least two names of people that have joined up with the group in the last two years that came here SPECIFICALLY FOR THE TOURNAMENT - most of the newer faces I've seen found the site through searches for RPG stats or information in general, or forum games, or other sources. Those newer folks may participate in the tourney, but they didn't come here for it, and I don't think anyone has come here for it specifically in a very long time.

Well, me, for one. I was linked to the site by a friend, sure, but I lurked around for a few months solely for the tourn before joining the forums, and I only joined the forums initially so I could submit a nom pool.

[superaielman]

Giving a break between seasons will help with editing burnout, as will finding new editors. I have not done a good job of late in recruiting new members and breaking up the workload there. I should have more time this seimester for that.

Re missing comments: It's easier to be creative for one writeup a week than it is for 10 a week. It means less writeups, but I don't think anyone will miss the general filler comments. I can't speak for Sage, but it's easier when I just have tod o one fairly large writeup (Say for Edge's appearance in the finals) and can focus my energy on that.

Bard also got linked here and stuck around because of the tournament. We've always gotten people in dribs and drabs that way.

It is a good way to keep a common thread in the community; it's also a way to put the knowledge gained from stat topics and obsessive playing to practical use and give you a payoff for it. I would have never gotten off my ass and engineered that monster of an Ogre Battle stat topic if there wasn't the payoff of seeing it in practice in the DL.

This is just a snapshot of chat.

Hal- RPGP/FFTSB
Super- RPGP/FFTSB
Dune- RPGP/FFTSB
Gate- Random search
Laggy-Excal linked him
Tal- Cmdr linked him
Yakumo- Meeple sig
Ashdla- Laggy linked her
Pyro- Don't remember, think a random sig?
Djinn-
Excal- RPGP
Magic- Google search for RPG pictures
Namagomi- Don't know
Alex- RPGP
Tonfa- Gamefaqs sig
Shale- RPGP/Dragged back here by GH
Snowfire- Don't know
Taishyr-
Ciato- RPGP/FFTSB
Elfboy- RPGP/FFTSB (Sorta)
Trance- He sort of wandered into the channel one day is all I remember.
Twilkitri- FE stat calculator.
Unoriginal- Been lurking since the RPGP days.
VSM- RPGP
Xeroma- Joined early, don't remember more
Snow- Niu linked him? He was Niu's minion at first.


Basically, over six years we've gotten a double handful of new people in the community just by random ass searching and linking people.

---

I'd like to see Nyarlie's pushed more. It would never work on site, but getting people to join the forums for an interactive team version of the DL could be cool. It does generate interest.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Xer was linked from Laggy as well. Idun, I also believe was dragged somehow via Tally-chu/Cmdr madness.

[Scar]

This might just be more work for you all, but I just thought of somehting that MIGHt be somewhat interesting/new/fresh.

For each match, you should add stats to each fighter, like a rating system. Kinda like how sports teams break down teams. You could have offense, defense, specials, HP, and have something to the effect of which fighter holds the advantage in each ctaegory. Throw in what each fighters strengths and/or weaknesses are so voters have a better feel of what the characters are capable of.

~

Anyways, I voted NO, to shutting down the main site. I don't write often, or at all any more on the site, but that's not to say I couldn't contribute eventually.

[Yoshiken]

Scar: Would that be in place of the writeups? It's probably easier to just so a basic "Advantages/Disadvantages" list instead of a full paragraph with flavour written in. That said, there are cases of "Advantages: ...uhh, looks pretty?"
Would definitely be less interesting, regardless of how it's put together, but would also be much better than nothing and would need minimal work.

And as for getting new people into the site? I can try getting some, but they're the kind of people who'd be very much put off by parts of the DL community (read: Gref, Zenny, Rob)

[Scar]

Like I said, it's only a suggestion my puny lil imagination came up with on the whim.

I could also start promoting this site in the multiple websites I frequent if you want. 

[OblivionKnight]

So bring them in anyway, ease them in, let them jump in to chat first (the 3 people you mentioned don't get in chat often - Grefter's the most often, but his time zone is different).  The three you mentioned are all nice, just let them know that everyone has a different attitude - getting in chat before the boards is a good idea.

I do have thoughts I want to postulate here, but I'm at work all weekend, so this will have to wait until Monday.

[Yoshiken]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying anything against those three. Just that they can be a bit blunt at times, which people I know do not seem to cope well with.

Also echoing Super's thoughts on hyping Nyarl's a little more. While it's not something that'd work well on the main site, we could at least advertise forum stuff a little more on the main page as opposed to just a link saying "Want to discuss stuff?" I know different tourns appeal to different people, so giving a brief mention of forum tourns running on the homepage might help with forum activity, which in turn leads to people bringing new members to the community, methinks.

[superaielman]

Yoshi/Scar: Always, always feel free to invite people to get into the group. James Xeno was one of the guys you linked to on AE, and he's been around and is a part of the community for... gosh, ages.

[Scar]

Been reading the 1st page a bit more in detail. To the idea of a team tourny in the near future. The tried and true way of pairing teams based on in game relation ship is nice and all, but what about a random lotto type of draft?

Take Hatbot who is the lotto draw of the DL. You could give everyone in each a random number or just go down the line (since hatbot would be picking the numbers anyways). Stop at like half way and break off each division into two groups, upper and lower half and then pick the numbers and pair teams in that way. That way no two super Godlikes are on a team and no two low ranked fighters have to get stomped.

[Cmdr_King]

In simplest terms, I think there's one big reason that we need something like the current tourney as the face of the DL; participation is important.  With participation, and a weekly format, you provide a reason to come back to the site routinely.

I mean, I dunno about you, but when I need to look up information I can't get from GameFAQs/Wikipedia, I google it, get what I need, and forget the site entirely.  And I sure as heck never look at the forums for another site.  Even if I do remember the site, if it doesn't update terribly frequently, I tend to look at it once a week (give or take), do a once-over for new stuff, and not seeing anything wander off.

Boiling it down, I think that anything place on the DL's front page needs to be 1) something that updates routinely, preferably at least once a week and 2) something that allows the visitor to participate, which is more likely to draw them deeper into the site rather than them just looking up a single bit  then moving on, and I don't think I'd be in favor of any suggestion that doesn't meet at least these two.

[Revelations]

Hi All,
Well, long time no chat all. 

Although I've been visiting reasonably regularly to vote, I haven't had the time to really jump into the boards like I used to do (even with gamefaqs, for that matter).  Life's been neat, lots of changes with jobs, getting married, lots of ministry work at church, etc, but it's fun to stop here and look around.  You all have always done a great job, even from when I first looked at the site ages ago with Hally and Super bringing me into it, glad to see how you guys have grown it and maintained it!

As you could call me 'new' technically (my account was disabled, so I'm your newest member, lol ), I may not be the most able to speak on what changes you need to make to get around this situation.  Although it sounds tough, lots of work each week and lots of burn-out and not seeing the fullest results you wanted. 

If it were me in the situation, I'd really ask some questions:

1.  What, among all the activities in the DL, is the one activity that you are the best at among all video game sites, or could work to be the best at among all sites?  If it's holding a tournament and the discussion boards for it, great, but if it's something altogether different (like the best video game resource and discussion place for RPGs, or the best stat place, or the best area for hanging out), then how do you make it that way?

2.  Related to 1, you have had a lot of fun, committed folks stay for years on this place to grow it and maintain it.  What activity would make your core folks, who will stay to the bitter end and who devote the time and effort to make this place what it is, enjoy their work the most and go to better heights?  And related, what will make folks who are just visitors want to take part more fully?

[Revelations]

Hi All,

I guess my main point is that the site should find what its soul is, then adjust everything for that direction.
From my 'visitor' perspective, the primary draws to this site were centered in the people here and the friendship network, and with that the fun content that those people generate.  The DL was a nice basis for that, but literally anything could be in the place of the DL provided it kept everyone here together and the fun content rolling along. 

Ex.  What if the site was primarily centered on making the best RPG discussion / friendship network among all sites?  The DL (perhaps with standardized dossiers that are posted on each video game character articulating strengths/weaknesses, and then write up the code so that users can submit right with the match any unique considerations for that match for more participation) would be mentioned as part (not the primary emphasis) of a list of activities (like stats, RI, game walkthroughs/discussions), etc that make up the site.

Anyways, wish you all the best of luck with what you all choose to do, and I'll be lurking around probably too.