Dragon Quest 5 in the DL

[superaielman]

Pretty straightforward. I'm near the end of the game and want to get my thoughts together about what weould rank from the game and general thoughts on it.

Yes: Main character (Does he have a canon name?), Bianca, Fiora, Saber, Parry (Son), Madchen (Daughter), Sancho/Borango, Nizmo? No idea there.
Maybe: Slime Knight. Only Monster you can use for the entire game, translates reasonably well to the DL. Harry- Temp, not very useful in game. Could go either way.  Tippin/Tuppance- No real opinion there, didn't use him. Should be fine.
Doubtful: Debora- Splitpath and only on the DS version, Slime- Series mascot and useful in game, but blah to his translation and monsters in general aren't good DL ideas.
No: Anything else offhand, including Pankcraz or whatever the hero's father is called.

Am I forgetting anything? Seems like a fairly small ranking offhand.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'd go just for your "Yes" list off a glance, although Borongo(/Saber?) is arguably a monster as well. Everybody else has obvious issues, and I have to add that ranking Papas (Hero's dad) is basically Laike all over again, only even worse. That can get fucked.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Apart from being a big supporter of ranked Slime (and DQ4 Healie~!), super's list looks fine. Assuming DQ5 ever gets enough players/interest.

[Dhyerwolf]

I'm not very far in (And doubt I'll be making any progress anytime soon), but I guess this is a general question? Is Saber DS only? Is Saber Borongo? Does Saber have art that looks more like a cat than a pumpkin with fangs?

Anyways, again, not far in, but I'm not so big on ranking a usuable non-plotty monster because it's iconic of an RPG series. My general rule is that if you want those, go for Boco first!

[dude789]

I'd probably support the family including all 3 wives, Slime Knight, Slime, Sancho, Saber, Harry and Tuppence.

[superaielman]

I'm not very far in (And doubt I'll be making any progress anytime soon), but I guess this is a general question? Is Saber DS only? Is Saber Borongo? Does Saber have art that looks more like a cat than a pumpkin with fangs?

Anyways, again, not far in, but I'm not so big on ranking a usuable non-plotty monster because it's iconic of an RPG series. My general rule is that if you want those, go for Boco first!

Borango is Sancho. He's a human who joins at the start of gen 3. Saber joins in the SNES version as well.

[SnowFire]

You sure, super?  Pretty sure that Saber is Borongo...   also Nera is the other wife option, Flora's the fan translation.

Anyway, I'm highly in favor of ranking the game but also highly in favor of not ranking lesser-known scrubs.

Yes: Hero, Saber, Bianca, Parry, Madchen.
Maybe: Harry, Bishop Ladja
No: Honey, Sancho, Nera, Deborah, Tuppence, Grandmaster Nimzo.
Hell no: Monsters, the rest of the chessboard (Kon the Knight, Slon the Rook, King Karol...  the queen imposter is pretty plotless, forget her name, same with the Pawn.)
Moose: Bjorn the Behemoose, better monster-in-a-box than Dark Force.  Has a big cutscene!  THE MOOSE IS LOOSE

Theory: You must have Bianca at least for Generation 1 /early Gen 2, and she's not THAT different from Nera.  So she's the best stand-in for the splitpath wife choices.  Saber/Parry/Madchen are obvious, very likely they all get used and they have plot.  On the maybes... Harry is earlygame and thus rather easy to vote on, has some plot.  Ladja also has more plot than Nimzo, is a more interesting DL fight, has two forms.  Honey you have for too little time, so no.  Nera/Deborah are covered by the Bianca rank.  Tuppence and Sancho suck in-game.  Tuppence doesn't really have plot either; Sancho's got some plot, but the bigger problem is that he's a character that I, and I'm sure several others, just left at home in favor of monsters.  And he translates annoyingly well to the DL since he's got ID.  Nimzo?  Eh.  If we rank any boss I feel it should be Ladja, don't think the game can support two boss ranks.

Edit: Also, re Slime, aside from the usual problems monsters have...  the stat topic notes that there is an *extreme* respect split based off whether aftergame levels are allowed.  Meditate is lvl. 72 and Infernal Flames is lvl. 99.  It's already kind of FAQ-bait that Slime gets that so late, and it's quite possible to beat the aftergame Esturk without hitting lvl. 72, so uh yeah.

[superaielman]

I'm not 100% on the names. But yeah, point got across.

Honey gets a hell no, unmemorable early game UPC. I am against those in general. Nera I don't mind. It is a 50/50 choice on if you pick Nera or Bianca in the SNES game.  Slime Knight feels solid enough on it's own merits. Solid PC who does in the DL exactly what he does in game (Decent fighter/healer type with some elemental resistances), so yeah.

hinode, got a chart of DQ5 monster elemental/status resistances handy?

[Nephrite]

I'm pretty chill with anyone, I don't see any problem with all the wives, myself.

[Meeplelard]

NOTE: Fan-trans names cause that's what I know offhand and better than fucking up the official names.  Naturally, I'd assume (and support) the usage of the official english names

Yes: Hero, Son, Daughter, Sanchez, Borongo.
Reason: Hero is obvious, Son and Daughter have plot, forced PCs, etc.  Just a text book PC rank, and despite the differing parents, the only thing that changes is the coloring of their hair (and Daughter's clothes), so its not an issue.  Sanchez is a required PC too, IIRC, though not used often, but he's so straightforward, why not?  Borongo is a monster, technically, but only from the aspect that he may disobey you; he's otherwise a typical PC, and one you get in Gen 2 and can use throughout to boot.

Support, but not raving for: Bianca and Flora.
Split Path PCs, though they function practically the same that ranking one could work too, in which case, Bianca takes precedence due to probably being canon (the game's "plot" suggests this, as does the game's art for the Children), and I'd expect to be the more used Wife, for all that she's technically inferior (slightly worse stats + no Healmore/MidHeal/whatever.  Also no Explodet, but that's "Who cares" in the DL.)    Yeah, whether we rank both or just one is fine, and I wouldn't cry if we didn't rank either though they are not totally bland duellers as an advantage to them.

Wouldn't Oppose: Slime Knight, Harry.
Reason: Pretty much the only constant monster used throughout, and he translates in the DL pretty much perfectly in game.  Most people will get a Slime Knight, and most will probably use it cause its an early monster whose clearly useful, and it never actually gets totally bad either, so yeah.  All other monsters I'd oppose, INCLUDING Slime, for the Generic Clause, combined with general lack of usage and translating.
Harry is a workable Temp who I wouldn't mind seeing in, but don't feel needs to be ranked either, so yeah, could go either way, but not gonna push for him.  He has enough plot to justify it too.

No: Deborah.
Split Path and only in one version of the game...yeah, no.  Sounds like she has less plot than both wives too, but don't know details.

Definitely No: Papas.
Overpowered PC you get to use for like one dungeon and is completely AI Controlled, and I'm not even sure you can check his stats?  Uh, yeah.  As Snow said, its basically Laike all over again; to make matters worse, he's early game only, so this makes him an even bigger scaling nightmare.

Die in a Ditch: Pippin.
Optional PC who while easy to get, is completely worthless.

[Cmdr_King]

I'd consider Hero, Parry, Madchen, and Saber as obvious ranks.

Could go either way on Sanchez.  He doesn't really add much, but I feel like he has a steady, quiet presence throughout the game that's fairly memorable.

Would definitely want to rank Bianca.  Aside from her temp stints being enough to get a good feel for her development, the game is very unsubtle about her being the 'right' choice for wife. 
Similarly, while I'm not opposed to Nera, since my impression is that the game is popular enough that it's not uncommon to replay and see her, in addition to people who're just contrary, I wouldn't really fight for her either.

Deborah and Pippen are right out.
Ladja is the only boss that feels salvagable to me.  Despite Nimzo existing, he's definitely the visible face of evil for 90% of the game.

Monsters... well.  Others seem fairly opposed, so while I think ranking Slime is fun conceptually I think I'm a little outvoted there.  Oh well.

[Dark Holy Elf]

If this game comes up for ranking I will be opposed to any monsters without a damn good argument for why we should rank one even though they apparently share names with better-known monsters in more played Dragon Quest games (oh hi needless votesplit), and there's a precedent for not ranking such things from Lufia 2 and FFT, etc.

PCs sound fine otherwise. I have no problem with DS-only PCs because I suspect DQ5o's playership (excluding people who also play the DS version) will be negligble, unlike with ToP or FF3 (and Cloud of Darkness' Godlike championship shows how little it mattered for even FF3). Obviously I won't fight for any either.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Honestly, we really -should- rank some mascots. Boco and Healie, yo. Jack Frost too. We need more Punies in Light because it's awesome. Rank Nils and Rise while we're at it. Jogurt could use some wins.

[superaielman]

Nils can't fight ever and thus auto loses, Rise doesn't even have a PC form.  Bad. Jack Frost has terrible votesplit all over the place and I think his best rankable form off the top of my head is from DDS? That's bad. I'd like slime but if the support isn't there, it isn't.

(Healie... eh maybe, but I strongly dislike DQ UPC's as ranking ideas across the board.)

[DjinnAndTonic]

UPCs?

New acronym time!

[Meeplelard]

We specifically avoid ranking characters who cannot win irregardless of situation, contrast to "Can't win cause they just suck that much."  Jogurt is the latter.  I mean, we had VP1 Hrist Ranked for a while, and she and Jogurt use to be considered a toss up match cause its "Does Jogurt kill before Hrist hits!?" Granted, Hrist now has the VP2 Form and that's why she sort of upgraded, but that's an aside.  The point is, those two couldn't win cause they really sucked.
Its for this reason we also allowed Shiho Wait Reaction (which is another fight Jogurt technically wins, cause Wait Reaction can't hit low targets, like, say, Hamsters, so Jogurt wins on the "Does more damage" clause); now she can theoretically win a fight, provided the enemy she fights sucks enough.

Nils and Rise?  No such luck, especially since Rise doesn't even participate in battle.  Oh, she has stats, but they're really just for show and added flavor, IIRC?  They literally CANNOT win.  See, Jogurt can fight and beat Augst, so can Hrist.  These two?  Its a 100% stale mate; they sit their, twiddling their thumbs, as Augst does the same thing waiting for them to attack...which they won't do.  You can't even "More damage" clause it, cause neither side is attacking one another.  

...that's actually a good way to test if someone is theoretically rankable.  "Can a fight between them and Augst be determined one way or another?"  I don't know if Augst's attack is actually elemental, and if it is, would hitting a weakness allow him to kill, but that's mostly just me wording it such that a technicality, instead of saying "can you beat Augst" and then someone says "Shedinja loses cause he's weak to Fire!"  or some such.  In cases of like everyone whose ranked, they can hurt Augst, provoke Counters, and ultimately, the fight will be decided either by "who dies first" or in bizarre scenarios "Who does more damage?" at very least.  It will almost always be in the other fighters favor, but that's an aside.
Rise and Nils can't even get that much; its a total statemate.  Its not like a PC who CAN act and doesn't, its literally cannot act.

Branching from that...

Healie is a bad idea.  He's a one dungeon wonder, IIRC, and he's not even from a big enough rank to justify, and there's so many other better ideas (FFT Boco is better, for example, as is Byblos.)  Random "Mascots" are just kind of silly to rank if you ask me.  The vote split for things like Slime comes to mind.  People like, say, Pikachu being ranked were done cause, well, Pokemon is not a normal rank in regards to what we decide, and he technically falls under the usual "Starters and Legendaries only" criteria thanks to Yellow version; the fact that Pikachu is consistent throughout versions (he has some changes, but its more minor tweaks than flat out variants.)  Contrast this to Slime; the random encounter is a laughable "OHKO move on" thing while the PC form not only is totally different than that, it has Yamikei Clause non-sense that most people won't even see, making the interp split that much worse.

We also have to factor in that "What is a mascot?" can be vague.  There are some obvious ones, but then there's less obvious scenarios.  Frankly, its a can of worms I'd rather kept close.

EDIT:
UPC = Un-Playable Character.  As in, the character joins, but is AI Controlled.
Granted, Umaro is like this, but Umaro's a better rank than Healie for so many reasons its not even funny <_<

[alanna82]

Rank: Hero, Parry, Madchen, Bianca, Sancho and Saber
Possibly Harry/Nimzo/Ladja

No to the other wives/temps
Will consider monsters if ranked as DQ5 only.

[DjinnAndTonic]

We specifically avoid ranking characters who cannot win irregardless of situation, contrast to "Can't win cause they just suck that much."  Jogurt is the latter.  I mean, we had VP1 Hrist Ranked for a while, and she and Jogurt use to be considered a toss up match cause its "Does Jogurt kill before Hrist hits!?" Granted, Hrist now has the VP2 Form and that's why she sort of upgraded, but that's an aside.  The point is, those two couldn't win cause they really sucked.
Its for this reason we also allowed Shiho Wait Reaction (which is another fight Jogurt technically wins, cause Wait Reaction can't hit low targets, like, say, Hamsters, so Jogurt wins on the "Does more damage" clause); now she can theoretically win a fight, provided the enemy she fights sucks enough.

Nils and Rise?  No such luck, especially since Rise doesn't even participate in battle.  Oh, she has stats, but they're really just for show and added flavor, IIRC?  They literally CANNOT win.  See, Jogurt can fight and beat Augst, so can Hrist.  These two?  Its a 100% stale mate; they sit their, twiddling their thumbs, as Augst does the same thing waiting for them to attack...which they won't do.  You can't even "More damage" clause it, cause neither side is attacking one another.  

...that's actually a good way to test if someone is theoretically rankable.  "Can a fight between them and Augst be determined one way or another?"  I don't know if Augst's attack is actually elemental, and if it is, would hitting a weakness allow him to kill, but that's mostly just me wording it such that a technicality, instead of saying "can you beat Augst" and then someone says "Shedinja loses cause he's weak to Fire!"  or some such.  In cases of like everyone whose ranked, they can hurt Augst, provoke Counters, and ultimately, the fight will be decided either by "who dies first" or in bizarre scenarios "Who does more damage?" at very least.  It will almost always be in the other fighters favor, but that's an aside.
Rise and Nils can't even get that much; its a total statemate.  Its not like a PC who CAN act and doesn't, its literally cannot act.

Branching from that...

Healie is a bad idea.  He's a one dungeon wonder, IIRC, and he's not even from a big enough rank to justify, and there's so many other better ideas (FFT Boco is better, for example, as is Byblos.)  Random "Mascots" are just kind of silly to rank if you ask me.  The vote split for things like Slime comes to mind.  People like, say, Pikachu being ranked were done cause, well, Pokemon is not a normal rank in regards to what we decide, and he technically falls under the usual "Starters and Legendaries only" criteria thanks to Yellow version; the fact that Pikachu is consistent throughout versions (he has some changes, but its more minor tweaks than flat out variants.)  Contrast this to Slime; the random encounter is a laughable "OHKO move on" thing while the PC form not only is totally different than that, it has Yamikei Clause non-sense that most people won't even see, making the interp split that much worse.

We also have to factor in that "What is a mascot?" can be vague.  There are some obvious ones, but then there's less obvious scenarios.  Frankly, its a can of worms I'd rather kept close.

EDIT:
UPC = Un-Playable Character.  As in, the character joins, but is AI Controlled.
Granted, Umaro is like this, but Umaro's a better rank than Healie for so many reasons its not even funny <_<

And I think this is taking DL Light far too seriously. Punies incapable of victory are awesome.

As a more serious thought, I really think Healie is plenty memorable enough to warrant a rank, even from DQ4. Boco too. Just these two, and perhaps a specific form of Jack Frost, would cover all the 'Mascots' I can even think of.

[Dhyerwolf]

Has anyone actually played both versions? I'm starting to think not (Or if so, he or she isn't participating in this topic at least). Borongo is definetely not Sancho, Super! (In the same stat topic). I'm not sure he's Saber either given that it was said that Borongo was in the 2nd Gen? Saber joins about 3 seconds into the game. Not like I suppose it really matters overall though.

[superaielman]

Borango is Saber. My fault, yeah.

[Meeplelard]

Borongo is the cat, I believe he is indeed Saber.  In the ORIGINAL, he "joined" you in Gen 1, but merely followed you, don't think he actually participated in battles at all.   He didn't become a genuine PC, IIRC, until Gen 2.  I might be misremembering though.

DQ5DS had actual changes in its plot, gameplay, etc. that DQ4DS seemed to lack, as from what I recall, DQ4DS was more just a graphical and polish update (and maybe some re balancing), and this could be one of those changes.

I know CK and I discussed in chat and DQ5DS definitely has some minor plot changes.  Ladja, for example, played about half as big a role he did in the original.  He didn't really do much besides the end of Gen 1 things and then I think you sort of ignore him the entire game until near the end where you finally fight him.  Sounds like in DQ5DS, they put him into more scenes, had him replace some token useless DQ-style henchman, etc. 

(Considering I played DQ5o twice, and I couldn't remember a character like this doing much at all, that speaks heavily about his role in the original.  I think CK even managed to note the guy he replaced BY NAME in one such scene, which is probably enough proof that DQ5DS has some actual plot changes.)

[superaielman]

DQ5 has several new monsters added off the top of my head. Saber is defniitely playable in all three gens as well, though he is mostly there as a warm body in gen 1.

EDIT:

there's a precedent for not ranking such things from Lufia 2 and FFT, etc.

Lufia 2 monsters have no art and really function on their own scale (Forced AI control, far different mechanics including evasion than the normal party) so not really comparable there.

[alanna82]

The Saber in Gen 1 and Gen 2 are technically different monsters. Saber in Gen 1 can only reach level 20 (hes controllable, but he wont listen to you since he has less than 20 wisdom), while after you get him in gen 2 he can learn moves and reach 99.

[hinode]

If this game comes up for ranking I will be opposed to any monsters without a damn good argument for why we should rank one even though they apparently share names with better-known monsters in more played Dragon Quest games (oh hi needless votesplit), and there's a precedent for not ranking such things from Lufia 2 and FFT, etc.

The big difference between monsters in DQ5 and something like FFT is that you absolutely have to use monsters for at least the middle third of the game to even fill out your party member slots as you only have 1-2 humans max; most probably will use some for a good while longer, especially with the larger party in the remake. In this sense they're more akin to FFT generic humans, except with fixed skillsets. Of course FFT generics aren't ranked either, but then FFT has a huge glut of bosses ranked, something that would never happen with DQ5, not even in an alternate universe where it had FF7 level popularity in the west. There's also nothing I'd consider a good representitive generic class from FFT, whereas DQ5 has an obvious one.

If DQ5 had the popularity it did in Japan, I'd say that ranking a couple of monsters (Slime Knight, at least) as representitives of the game's only really distinctive gameplay system would be a no-brainer. Considering that it'll be around the minimum threshold of acceptability at best, though, they're probably not worth bothering with.

Yes: Main character (Does he have a canon name?)

Reliable posters on Gamefaqs (Aeana and Hopeful Death/n00b averager) posted that Abel was listed in some jp guidebook or another. Then again, they also gave default names for the son and daughter different from what the English version used, but it's better than nothing I guess.

That aside, my personal thoughts on what to rank-

Definate yes: Hero, Bianca, Parry, Madchen

Bianca is very clearly supposed to be the intended wife, they even plaster art of the kids with blond(e) hair all over the official site. She's an obvious pick to me, and if we only rank one wife it's obviously going to be her. Other three need no comments.

Leaning yes: Sanchez/Sancho

He plays a fairly significant part in the plot, I can't imagine anyone forgetting who he is. There's a risk that a lot of people won't use him as a PC, but checking a guide/stat topic for one PC like this shouldn't be a big deal. There are plenty of ranked games where the average player won't (or can't) use every PC and will have to stat topic/abstain on them.

Maybe: Saber/Borongo, Nera/Flora, Henry

Saber's someone that I'm guessing most people will use, for gen 2 if nothing else, but it's pretty bland in the DL. No real personality either. Wouldn't strongly to ranking it, but I don't really see much to gain from doing so either.

Nera is basically Bianca with better stats and a really crappy healing move. The near-clone status makes it easier for people who didn't pick her to vote on her, but it also means that ranking her alongside Bianca doesn't really add much. Open to arguments either way on her.

Henry... he's a temp who leaves pretty early on, but he was by far the best developed character in the original version, so he's pretty memorable.

Leaning no: Deborah, Slime Knight

Being DS-only is something I could live with, being three-way pathsplit alongside that... yikes. It'd take a strong argument for me to support ranking her, especially since she's clearly not the canon choice. Slime Knight (we could rank him as Pierre, or whatever the first SK defaults to in the English release) is the only monster I'd consider, but given the low drawing I'm inclined to say no.

Definate no: Tuppance, the fairy whose name I forget, Pankraz/Papas, any monster besides SK

Abstain: Bosses. All of them were completely unmemorable in the original, but it sounds like they added some actual beef in the plot here so I'll let remake players decide on this.

[OblivionKnight]

!!!!!!SPOILERS!!!!!!!









I'd support ranking (only played DQ5o, so I'm only noting what I can vote on - I would not have anything against Deborah, I just can't comment on her >_>):

Hero, Son, Daughter, Flora, Bianca, Papas, Bella, Henry, Sancho, Pippin, Borongo, Esturk (OPTIONAL SUPERBOSS!!!!!!! - he's also plot important in DQ4!!!!!!!), Mildrath...other bosses with plot importance would include Jahmi and Gema (turned the Hero and wife to stone and killed Papas, respectively), as well as Ivol (last source of evil in the world) and Buron (first major demon you need to kill, also memorably giant).  

Edit: Don't break tables OK.

Edit Edit: How the hell did the tables break?  Probably after you touched them <_<