Parties & Rivals Team Tourney - Nominations / Commentary

[SnowFire]

Hello all.  I thought that Yoshiken's Trinity Limit tournament was pretty cool, so this is another team-flavored tournament I'd like to run, specially flavored to enhance voting rights.  The theme behind this is "How would in-game protagonist teams do against other games' final bosses?"  And each other, of course.  So.  4 PC teams and 4 bosses to each division, randomly seeded.  Boss HP is unscaled for this tournament, since they're against teams.  Note that yes, this favors bosses that face 6 characters over bosses from games with only 3 characters.

I'm posting this thread because past experience with, say, the Plot Power tournies has shown that there's often "oops, misranked this character" moments, or, even worse, "massive interpretation respect split ohgod."  Since team-based skills are easy to forget, this is a "wait, that team / boss is totally misranked!" comment thread before the real tournament starts.  If you'd like to nominate a team yourself, go for it, though note that there are only half as many slots as a normal tourney.  One of the advantages of game-based teams is that voting rights should be much easier - if you know the game, you can vote the entire team (rather than, say, only knowing 2/3 members).  So feel free to be a bit obscure.

Due to the likeliness of weird spoiler effects, the tournament will be double-elimination.  To keep sanity up, though, there are only 8 entrants in each division (so this'll still take only 5 weeks total, the usual length).  As another note, I'm not sure about the status of Tide's Middles / Heavies tournament, but if that starts before this one does I'll let it finish up first, of course.

Here's the current slate I have; please comment if you feel that they'd be better suited for another division and/or shouldn't be used at all.  (Notably, I haven't played all these games, so I'm to some extent guessing from DL reaction on a few of these.)

Godlike
Dragon Quest VIII - Guv, Yangus, Jessica, Angelo
Jessica blows up many PC teams before they get started, and has Magic Barrier for status-whores.  Solid stalling game otherwise, 3/4 characters have revival.  Angelo has fast MT ID and other status.

Wild Arms - Rudy, Jack, Cecilia
Fast MT ID?  Cecilia being able to solo bosses with some setup?  Sure.

Final Fantasy IX - Zidane, Garnet, Vivi, Steiner
Fast status out the gate in Zidane, and Garnet has cheesy elemental resists + Zidane's Protect Girls to help her cast Odin's MT ID.  Steiner's good against bosses.  Status protection or lack thereof a bit of an interp headache, though.

Breath of Fire - Ryu, Nina, Bleu, Puka (=Karn/Bo/Ox/Gobi)
Puka's super fast and very painful, Deis1's got solid MT damage and some status, Nina's a solid healer.  Only problem is that Ryu takes a turn to get going and Nina's their only reviver.

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Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete - Zophar (w/ all 5 parts active, damageable)
BWAHAHAHA.  Still fears magic-spoiling.

Digital Devil Saga - Brahman
HP Buffering, brutal stat downs, stupid amount of turns.

Shadow Hearts 3 - Lady
Gets a turn, blows your team up in any element she likes, spoils buffers.  Hope you have strong healers with good defend commands!

Phantom Brave - Sulphur (w/ 4 rocks granting invincibility)
Terminate, Omega Star, and Omega Ices you to death.  Unless you've got Obstacle Smash or something to blow up terrain, the invincibility-granting rocks are decently durable, too.  Fears good stallers who can run out his MP.

Heavy

Breath of Fire 3 - Ryu, Rei, Momo
Ryu3!  And friends!  Slow start, but revival / ID / team healing can't be too bad.

Mana Khemia - Vayne, Jessica, Niki, Flay, Pamela, Anna
Roxis doesn't really translate and Muppy is apparently an interp-split.  Defensive support abuse is pretty cool and makes having only three characters out at once practically an advantage.  Kinda unsure on this one, could be an interp trainwreck, but will await comments.

Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete - Alex, Nash, Mia, Jessica, Kyle, [Nall]
Nash statuses people out; unfortunately the non-Sleep statuses tend to only hit 1 (or at most 2) people at once.  Failing that, Alex abuse or MT damage storm (everyone non-Jessica has some kind of full MT).  Jessica being the only reviver is problematic against bosses.

(YOUR NOM HERE!)

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Final Fantasy 7 - Sephiroth (w/ formchain)
Bizarro kinda sucks and Wall is less useful with more dispellers about, but Fly->Supernova is still awesome.

Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter - Elyon
Deadly skillset and Absolute Defense.  HP is suspect, though, depending on how much Wyrm he's held against.

Wild Arms 4 - Divine Weapon (no infinite Accelerator hype)
Well, teams get around his initial pseudo-Belial blocking game better than duelers.  Excellent speed, though.

Star Ocean 2 - Indalecio
Being mostly MT helps keep the pressure on.  Unscaled HP helps him unleash his Time of Trial magic which will mess up teams without MDef buffing.

Middle

Final Fantasy Tactics - Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul
aka "main path characters not named Rafa or Malak (or Boco)."  Orlandu & Meliadoul's equip breaking game is cool but Ramza's Wish and O's Dark Sword being the only healing here is not.  Still, this team can blitz the healers and let Orlandu solo the rest.

Final Fantasy 6 - Celes, Sabin, Edgar, Setzer
Edgar is pretty terrifying if he lives to get a turn.  Celes has some unfair options but they're mostly single-target and she'll have a tough time soloing enemy teams.  Sabin needs to learn how to aim his Bum Rushes, but but Whirlwind for healing?!

Suikoden III - Hugo, Fubar, Sgt. Joe, Lilly
Hugo & Fubar are super-tanky, which helps for getting Hugo's spells off.  Sgt. Joe's a tanky healer, too.  (Toss in Samus and Reed to upgrade the team to Heavy?)

(YOUR NOM HERE!)

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Chrono Trigger - Lavos (w/ final two forms chain)
Dropping Grand Stones is fun.  The weird Core Defense Up / Defenses down thing makes blitzing a bit tough, but gives stallers a nice opening.

Grandia III - Xorn
Not as scary as you'd think, honestly.  Initial skillset isn't great and doesn't have the anti-buffing move, and characters with defend commands spoil the delayed-action Death Knell in a team setting, just like in-game.  (And Xorn can ever have one Death Knell bomb out at once, I believe.)

Final Fantasy 6 - Kefka
Well, Fallen One->MT Ice3 is nice...  if the opposition completely lacks MT healing.  At least Havok Wing is still cool to bust revivers out.  Runs the serious risk of being two-rounded even unscaled.

Final Fantasy X - Jecht
Stone is a good status option to be rid of pesky healers, followed by MT Sword physicals once the healers are gone.

Light

Wild Arms 2 - Ashley, Brad, Lilka
If Lilka lives to her second turn this team is in decent shape but that's tough in a team format.  Ashley & Brad need some setup time themselves.

Tales of the Abyss - Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade
Beats, some healing, and a mage.  Not much team synergy, though.

Chrono Trigger - Crono, Marle, Lucca
Their triple tech blows stuff up!  If Marle is still alive.  Which she probably won't be.  At least Crono is fast and has revival, and Lucca has Hypno Wave.

Pokemon - Ash's team (Pikachu, Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, Snorlax, Espeon, all DL-normal-level PC versions not superboss Ash versions)
Great depth, but the two-pokemon-maximum limit is killer, as is the utter lack of revival.

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Valkyrie Profile - Loki
He really wishes Indiscriminate was more discriminating in a team setting.

Final Fantasy IX - Kuja
Solid MT 2HKO.  Fears MT healers.

Shadow Hearts - Albert Simon (Messiah)
HP-1 -> Physical has some merit, along with mehish MT.  Decent HP for boss slugfests at least.

Lufia 2 - Daos
Well, he spoils elements, at least.  Fear his occasional MT confusion?

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Note that there are two open slots - Middle & Heavy PCs - for the moment, and it's quite possible I might shuffle some currently listed characters out if people oppose them which would generate more openings.  There are plenty of classic and obvious additions, but hey, if this is successful there's plenty of turf left for a sequel.  So, any thoughts / nominations?

[DjinnAndTonic]

Skies of Arcadia - Vyse, Aika, Fina, Gilder

High Middle or Heavy. Delta Shield is initiative Magic immunity. Fina has accurate ID and 100% revival. Vyse has damage. Gilder has some damage, good buffs, decent speed, and initiative status effect nulling should the team want to use magic on themselves (or if Aika's healing/Swirlmarang-ing).

Problem? They share resources and they don't have a lot to start. Having one character Guard to increase SP gain is a viable strategy though.


Fire Emblem 7 - Lyn, Eliwood, Hector, Athos, Kent, Sain, Florina, Wyl, Serra, Erk, Marcus, Nils

Middle. Entirely average speed! Entirely status-bait! But... LOTS of targets! Counters! Smash! Healing! Nils! Technically, the entire team can't even attack one enemy at once due to spacing issues. If this seems too much for Middle, could drop any of the ones listed after Athos.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

With that many people on a team, with a bunch of DL Heavies to boot, and that amount of counters, I want to say the team actually swings Heavy if not higher. If nothing else, the evade spoiling+melee spoiling+THAT'S TOO MANY PEOPLE+if you haven't killed at least half of them before they go, you're dealing with overkill damage combo...

[DjinnAndTonic]

Having a ton of people is what I felt made them competitive at all.

But I suppose dropping Kent, Sain, and Florina would even things out. Could drop Erk and Wyl too, but I hardly think they're swinging things. I'd keep Serra and Nils for their relatively unique tricks compared 'standard FE duelist'. Lords + Athos just feel mandatory.

Notably, the other Middle teams include Vanish-hype, Equipment breaking, and fast MT Status... so even with all 12 FE PCs, they're still a bit underwhelming.

[Cmdr_King]

It's worth keeping in mind, though, that FE characters don't counter non-ST attacks.  Still, 12 characters put out a lot more raw damage than other teams; even unscaled bosses will be cut down in a few turns under that sort of assault.

[AndrewRogue]

I'd be wary of the MK team. As of endgame, there are potential arguments for them being unkillable by non-AoE damagee. Not sure that's a huge concern here, but it is worth mentioning.

[Dhyerwolf]

MK 2 could work better. After all, they at least don't heal HP upon switching out!

I'm assuming that Enrique wasn't included in the SoA team because he and Aika make a broken combo overall (As he's certainly the one who strikes me as the 4th battlewise and plotwise).

[DjinnAndTonic]

Even with Limited resources due to SP... I think Enrique/Aika in the SoA team could probably swing Godlike, yeah.

[Dhyerwolf]

Well, they can both independently spam their evil support moves at endgame (mostly. Enrique costs 1 SP), so infinite magic immunity+physical halving while still leaving Vyse/Fina open to do whatever. Granted, notable hamper on damage (Although Vyse can physical every turn while Fina throws out about 25% MT damage, so it could be worse.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

It's worth keeping in mind, though, that FE characters don't counter non-ST attacks.  Still, 12 characters put out a lot more raw damage than other teams; even unscaled bosses will be cut down in a few turns under that sort of assault.

Throw them at Elyon. He will make them his bitch.

[superaielman]

Well, they can both independently spam their evil support moves at endgame (mostly. Enrique costs 1 SP), so infinite magic immunity+physical halving while still leaving Vyse/Fina open to do whatever. Granted, notable hamper on damage (Although Vyse can physical every turn while Fina throws out about 25% MT damage, so it could be worse.

Vyse has skull shield! Which while SS sucks bad in game since no one really relies on basic physicals, it has plenty of use in the DL.

[SnowFire]

Djinn: The Skies team is definitely Godlike.  Also, the Vyse & Aika combo spoiling magic and basic physicals make the distinction between "magic attack" and "special attack that happens to hit magic resistance" incredibly important, which can be an annoying interp-split.  Consider that a team of Vyse, Aika, and Ramus crush Sephiroth / Brahman / Zophar /  etc. just via Skull Delta Shield + Ramus Arrow plinks.  Anyway, suggestion noted, had that penciled in as a good candidate for season 2 if season 1 works out, but if a current Godlike PC gets bounced I'll definitely consider it.

As for Fire Emblem...  eh.  I don't feel that the way Fire Emblem works mass team combat translates too well to the DL.  If we did do a Fire Emblem team, I'd almost certainly want 4 characters or less to avoid "but they all can't team up on the boss at once without dropping back to a Hand Axe!" type disputes.  Maybe Lyn / Hector / Eliwood / Athos?  Even then, that has the issue of being a bit bland since everyone but Athos just spams damage, and I doubt Athos will be doing much healing.  Also that specific team feels like it's on the Light / Middle border, so we'd definitely want to rig things to either be a bit weaker to be a solid Light or stronger to be a competitive Middle.

AndrewRogue, Dhyerwolf: So a pass on the MK team, or at least an upgrade to Godlike?  Would Raze / Lily / Yun / Et / Puniyo be Heavy, and not too much of a research hassle?

[Dhyerwolf]

Raze team might work. Was going to say that they could sit Puniyo out until everyone else died, and then have her jump in and revive everyone. Also, GT timed cards are evil (although not sure if they are only faces bosses or other PC teams). Ulrika's team could fit better perhaps?

[SnowFire]

Originally I was considering rigging round 1 to be all PC teams vs. final bosses but even then they'd be fighting both enemy PC teams and bosses by the second round.  And I think I'll just stick to completely random anyway.

Okay, Ulrika team noted as recommendation for Heavy.  I might keep the MK1 team anyway and slot it at Godlike; it occurs to me that Cecilia's magic immunity hype was later questioned since it doesn't seem to apply to enemy-only magic, meaning she doesn't insta-spoil a bunch of bosses as much.  Which makes the WA1 team not really good in Godlike (they've still got Jack's fast MT ID for enemy PCs, but they lose *badly* against Godlike bosses if Cecilia's magic immunity has holes).  For the suggested FE7 Middle team, hrmm, Nils could be added to the E/H/L/A combo without TOO much "FE map spacing" worry, but eh, still feels a bit weak for Middle, what with lacking any kind of MT healing.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Djinn: The Skies team is definitely Godlike.  Also, the Vyse & Aika combo spoiling magic and basic physicals make the distinction between "magic attack" and "special attack that happens to hit magic resistance" incredibly important, which can be an annoying interp-split.  Consider that a team of Vyse, Aika, and Ramus crush Sephiroth / Brahman / Zophar /  etc. just via Skull Delta Shield + Ramus Arrow plinks.  Anyway, suggestion noted, had that penciled in as a good candidate for season 2 if season 1 works out, but if a current Godlike PC gets bounced I'll definitely consider it.

As for Fire Emblem...  eh.  I don't feel that the way Fire Emblem works mass team combat translates too well to the DL.  If we did do a Fire Emblem team, I'd almost certainly want 4 characters or less to avoid "but they all can't team up on the boss at once without dropping back to a Hand Axe!" type disputes.  Maybe Lyn / Hector / Eliwood / Athos?  Even then, that has the issue of being a bit bland since everyone but Athos just spams damage, and I doubt Athos will be doing much healing.  Also that specific team feels like it's on the Light / Middle border, so we'd definitely want to rig things to either be a bit weaker to be a solid Light or stronger to be a competitive Middle.

AndrewRogue, Dhyerwolf: So a pass on the MK team, or at least an upgrade to Godlike?  Would Raze / Lily / Yun / Et / Puniyo be Heavy, and not too much of a research hassle?

I was pretty sure there's an issue with trying use Skull Shield and Delta Shield together? At the very least, I think it takes up too many resources? There might be some kind of mechanism where you can't use both at once?

As for FE team. Just scale it down to Lyn, Eliwood, Hector, Athos, Nils, Serra. The addition of the two lights adds some variety, still gives them a high total team count, but isn't an interp headache.

[superaielman]

I was pretty sure there's an issue with trying use Skull Shield and Delta Shield together? At the very least, I think it takes up too many resources? There might be some kind of mechanism where you can't use both at once?

The issue is that basic physicals blow ass in SoA and nothing of note uses them. Vyse is always better off spamming damage.

[Talaysen]

For Fire Emblem 7 you can only have four melee characters against a single target.  Use more mages.

[alanna82]

I like the Lyn/Hector/Eliwood/Athos/Nils/Serra idea for an FE team.

[Bardiche]

I like the Lyn/Hector/Eliwood/Athos/Nils/Serra idea for an FE team.

[Nephrite]

Hm... how would Souji / Chie / Yosuke / Yukiko work? It'd be Godlike, obviously.

Alternatively, Chie, Yosuke, Yukiko, Teddie?

[SnowFire]

Cool idea, but I think the P4 team qualifies for Uber-Godlike?  They all have auto-revive, Souji having two auto-revives, and Souji having the rest of the team covering for him?  Plus Souji's normal status weakness isn't so bad in a team setting where, even if say you saw Zidane as faster than Souji and Souji can't null Zidane's status by nulling physical damage, Souji will just auto-heal the status at end of turn off his passive ability (without having lost due to teammates).  Plus Souji can play infinite-Jessica by Hassou Tobi overkilling everything out repeatedly, since it's MT.  I guess...  maaaybe Lady has an argument?  Probably not, even if she can blow up the team and get extra actions off hitting Yukiko's weakness, Endure just kicks in, and a D-Combo would blow her stock AND hose her next initiative.

The non-Souji team works, though sadly isn't quite in the flavor since Souji's required.  Not sure I see a good way around it, though. They'd be Heavy, I assume?

Anyway, thanks to all for the response.  Tentatively, going with shifting MK->Godlike, sticking the P4 team in Heavy (unless someone objects), and using Djinn's FE7 team in Middle?  Will probably start this tomorrow if nothing comes up.

[Nephrite]

Fair enough. Maybe an Ogre Battle team... Destin, Fogel, Rauny, Tristan, Warren, Saradin? I'll think about it!

[074]

Hm.  PS4 team for Heavy, perhaps?  Chaz/Rika/Rune/Wren.  Possibly one of the fifth options (between Demi, Raja, Kyra, Hahn, and Gryz)?

Saner is self-explanatory.  As is barrier.  The buttloads of ID help.  The status vulnerability on non-robots and the inability to heal/revive robots does not.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

PS4 teams are generally working in Godlike. Too much healing/ID/MT.