Author Topic: <Untitled IAQ Project>: War Never Ends (voting over, but discussion to continue)  (Read 23878 times)

AndrewRogue

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CK: Could you elaborate on your concerns a bit? I'm not really seeing them.

Even considering the rough examples, it isn't just a generalized method of dealing damage, but how each character acts in battle and how they interact. I mean, at the very simple level, there's a whole shitton of interactions to be had in the way the PCs are managed individually and as a group. I'm just... not seeing it particularly disadvantaged vs having 12+ honest to god different subsystems.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 08:28:10 AM by AndrewRogue »

Talaysen

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##VOTE: YEA

Would like it in as a backup option, not a focus.  Don't really have any problems with CK's passive bonuses idea, though.

DjinnAndTonic

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The core of this, as I see it, cannot just be character diversity.  I mean, sure, that's an end goal, and something laudable.  But, the goal is not only to have a cast that is diverse, but also to have one that all feel like they are part of the same system.  To not have each one feel like they are part of a gimmicky disjointed system where there is no synergy.

I understand your concerns here. It is entirely possible that we might have a disjointed system like this. I propose we do a little back-and-forth on this particular aspect. We definitely want characters to be very unique and not duplicates of eachother. We also want a battle system that flows intuitively. Why don't we take what we have now and then come up with several rough drafts of character builds we like? Then we come back to the unifying battle system and modify it slightly to allow for most of our ideas... and then refine the characters again?

This is a pretty logical write-and-revise style of crafting -anything-. There's no reason we should shoehorn all our characters into one battle system mold before we've given ourselves a chance to brainstorm about what kind of characters we'd like to see.

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If everything springs from the same point, radiating outward from a central spoke, then it will encourage synergies in the design by nature.  And as this discussion now is the foundation, this is the proper time to argue for such a foundation.

The current design philosophy being espoused by many, it feels, is the opposite of that.  That we should have as many things as possible, without looking at how they fit together, and then using those to make a diverse cast on the assumption that it can all be made to work together at a later date. 

Alright, I definitely agree that this is a good time to come up with a basic idea to unify things. But a foundation is a bit too solid, and I think at this stage we should keep it malleable.

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So, here is my vision of how things should be.  A Hex based double ring, 1-3 movement.  ST/HT/GT/MT targetting.  No in battle items, with them used automatically when battle ends.  And, the core concept around which the system's unique features will resolve, will be how powers are used.

Okay, sounds good so far.

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Everything will fall into three groups.

Blasters - Those with MP, it does not replenish naturally, and it lasts as long as it lasts.
Back Loaded - Those who start with no MP, but naturally Regen it.  Naturally good in long battles, but poor in short ones.
Front Loaded - Characters with cooldown on their moves.  Very good in short battles, but tend to have issues in longer ones.

If you have 4 characters of each type, that gets you 12 characters.  5 leads to 15.  That's more than enough to have variation, and different ways of handling these powers.

Well, SaGa Frontier divides up its cast like this. It's a Race system, which is essentially what this is (or could be called for now, at least). Especially considering your proposition that each group have a few of each. If we divided the groups up such that each party only had one 'Race', then we're back to the '3 parties that play on 3 different mechanics' idea.

I like each of these ideas for individual characters, personally. I'm not sure I want to see the whole cast get shoehorned into these molds, though. Perhaps if we expanded it to 4/5 different Races, then at least that's the same number Races as you can have in a party at once (or more than you can use in a single party, which would encourage using more of the cast depending on how the mechanic fits your playstyle).


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For example, talking with Andy led to two different types of Back Loaded character.  One whose stats increase based on what percentage of their MP bar is full.  But still has their special attacks run off of MP.  While mine was a weakish support character, who had the rare ability to transfer their MP to others, letting them act as a battery to the Blasters at the cost of a subpar PC.

I like this. Your idea definitely has potential. But I want to see it opened up a little bit more.

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I think that this is the path that will lead to the better, stronger, synergised PC cast.  Where you not only have notable individuals, but you have teams.

Well, that is the goal. To have both notable individuals, and have them work well as teams. I feel the DL has more than enough skill to balance this without forcing the system into place before we have an idea of what PCs we want to make. It's a revision process. Say...let's work off your plan for now, but let's be willing to tweak it (or change it entirely) once we get to PC development.

DjinnAndTonic

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New to discussion and probably won't be around this much, but figured I'd throw in my 2(,000) gil:

Item Limits AND Character Changing:  Use the Dragon Quest Rule:  Restock and Rearrange at a base, whether fixed or mobile (i.e. the Wagon/Ship/Airship).  

The "Bag" would also be in the Wagon etc. and each character would have not just a limited inventory, (Tales does sound like a good example as certain items had multiples (up to 15) count as a single storage unit,) but also a limited carrying ability: Basically, while Strength could allow characters to carry heavier items, Body Build (which wouldn't change over the course of the game) would restrict space volume.  This would primarily impact Equipment, especially Weapons/Shields/Armor.  i.e. You can fold a Wizard's robe or even a suit of light Ring Mail (if you're strong enough) for pack storage.  But a Suit of Plate Armor is out of the question.

I'm not a fan of individual PC inventory systems, personally. And I think we're moving away from using items anyway. But assuming we still have them in some capacity, I don't think limited -Equipment- space is good at all. Too much realism can hurt a game.

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Then again, if we're going for more than a score of Party Members at a time, we should probably limit the "Mobile Base" to twice the party size and put the rest at the fixed HQ (or at least the Ship/Airship, depending on how large it is.  i.e. if we're using a FF-Style Airship, we can fit at least a dozen.  DQ-style Baloon/Carpet/Flying Bird?  Party size only.)

You know, I found this detrimental in Suikoden, too. Having to return to base to get your characters is annoying. Even with the Blinking Mirror, that's too damn long. Just make it an out-of-battle option at least, even if you don't like character-switching.

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Character Switching:  I think it not only should take a turn, but the departing character is still subject to first-strike-type (i.e. Quick Attack) attacks and Long Ranged Attacks by foes with higher agility.  The switch still takes place in this case regardless of the departing character's status at the end of turn.

Well, that would certainly make character-switching a non-focal feature... but I don't think we should punish people so much for using it if they -do- like the mechanic... Note that even if we decide to go for high-penalty switching like this, I'd like to see a PC or two who are 'more skilled' at switching and wouldn't have these penalties (or would have some kind of bonuses to make up for the penalties).

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Note that the above is limited to the Field Deployment.  If you have 16 characters at a present time and room for only 8 in the Wagon, then in the overworld, you can only select from among those 8 (minus the 3-5 presently fighting).  In a dungeon that isn't wide enough for the wagon, switching is completely unavailable.

So, Character Switching to me would be dependent, but on the size of the deployable group.  Switching would always be an option if the deployable group > the party size.

This is an interesting concept, but we're really not at the point to decide on any kind of transportation method, we don't know setting and such yet. Having some kind of mobile base is also a bit of a storyline-heavy feature. I guess it's not a bad idea to consider a dungeon or a field where switching would be impossible, it could allow for another layer of challenge at times (similar to VP2's sealstones getting disabled in certain areas).

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I'm assuming here that battles are standard RPG Encounters (random or not) and not SRPG campaign types.  If the latter, then I think everyone that is "field deployable" should be sent out.

Actually, let me take that back.  If you intend on all 12 PCs being able to travel in the dungeon together, then all 12 PCs should be able to battle at the same time.  that is be on the battle field at the same time.  No "reserves".  No "staying in the wagon to guard the items/dead".  And if there are people dead, then the caretakers should be behind the lines keeping them stable while the strongmen who would normally be carrying them are fighting the monsters.  And if you come to a fork and want to explore multiple paths, you either communicate with HQ (and such communications can be jammable as a plot point) or you "split up, gang!"

Basically, I think that the number of people you intend on taking into the dungeon should govern the "main party size".  Or vice versa.

Well, if we have another battle mode based entirely on an SRPG format, we could certainly use this idea.


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I like the "Game Over" = "Battle Retry from Start" bit.  If it's overruled, though, then if you have a party in reserve, then they should launch a rescue mission.  If the main party died in a Dungeon, but there's still someone in the Wagon, they can decide whether to go back to base to pick up reinforcements or just to go in with the Wagon unguarded.  (If the main party dies on the field, then the Wagon party subs in.  If that party dies but there are others at the main base, then field parties can be fielded.  etc.)

I'm not sure I like this idea. While the concept of rescue mission sounds kind of entertaining at first... I can't imagine I want to go through a mini-game anytime I might die in a dungeon. It's akin to someone dying DQ2. You have to drag their corpse back to the king to revive them. Does anyone -like- that mechanic? Only this method is using it in reverse! If you main four die in the dungeon, now your team of reserves has to go through the whole dungeon just to pick up their corpses!

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Unique Way of Gaining Abilities = Good.  Gives the characters an added depth.

Unique Way of using Abilities = Not so good.  People would complain about how character A has a limited set of charges but can cast spells every turn while  character B can only cast spells every third turn despite having basically an unlimited mana pool otherwise.

Right, so let's just make everyone carbon copies of eachother so no one complains that character A is different from character B...?

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Acutally, I'd go with having set pools of various ability points per character (Mana for Magic, Battery for Technology, Ability for non-magic skills i.e. wind uppercut, etc.) that can go negative (though not so much as half of the current Maximum (i.e. Max MP)).  That is, the MP/AP can go below 0, but if it does, then the character automatically goes into a non-removable status where basically all statistics (including accuracy and evade, but not Max HP or Max MP/AP etc.) are reduced until such time as MP/AP regenerate to above the zero marker.  Spells/Skills can still be used in this state, but at very reduced effectiveness.  This would require a regeneration system, of course.  

(Also, if Technology uses a separate "Battery" from non-magic "Ability", then Tech can not be used when the tech skill would bring battery below 0, whether the battery can recharge or not.  Heck, for Battery, the recharge would be a 5:1 Existing Battery:Recharging Battery, i.e. for every 5 "Battery Points" you have at the end of your turn, you "recharge" 1.  Mana and Ability would be Wisdom/Vitality divided by probably 4.)

Neat concept, not one that I'd want to implement on every PC, but certainly could be doable on one or two PCs.


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Finally: Aggression Meter:  Good call.  In fact, Have Multiple Meters:  One for Native Wildlife, one for invasive (i.e. non-native) wildlife, and one for sentients and their pets.  (Heck, you could make the Ambient vs Invasive difference a mini-plot point, i.e. villagers want the ravaging beasts dead but don't disturb the native animals on which their life depends.  And don't let those ravagers destroy the natives either.)  

Hmm... I guess if you flagged all enemies with different colors or something, this could be doable. It's a lot of meters on the screen at once, but this isn't a bad idea and it could be tweaked to suit our purposes.

074

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Also, regarding battle resets: This (and difficulty levels in tandem, possibly) is actually a viable way to handle multiple endings without heavy plot branching, come to think of it.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Anthony Edward Stark

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Heavy plot branching is good, though. There's never been a game where I said "you know, I wish the plot was less affected by my choices."

DjinnAndTonic

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Also, a free 'retry this battle' option... isn't an option I would ever consider accepting if it meant I lost access to an ending. Same thing with a difficulty mode. If I can only get the good ending on 'Hard' mode, then essentially you've created 'Normal' mode, but with a practice mode (or two, if you have an Easy mode as well).

Tide

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I've been avoiding this topic since there's way too much to read. Regardless, just some quick thoughts on where I stand regarding the issues listed...

Presence of SRPG elements (movement, AoEs): Yes. Movement, AoE, range are really good ways to differentiate characters. It's possible to make character molds where stats end up being sorta bad, but good movement/range end up making that character quite effective.

Impact of speed stat on actual speed: Linear. You can still have uber fast PCs in linear. Linear is easier to think about which is good, since more people understand what's going on and thus capable of joining in the discussion.

Resource limits: Should exist at the very least so you can't spam spam spam as it becomes dull otherwise. On the other hand, I'm not too fond of the Suikoden MP system (although it WOULD work). Depending on the scale and frequency of random battles, getting from location 1 to location 2 shouldn't require you to use more than 60% of the average person's resource pool is my feel. Anything more and resources becomes quite strapped, any less probably means that the challenge needs to be worked up. Which on that note, this would be somewhat tied to challenge. I wouldn't want battles that force me down to every last point of mana or what not, just as a heads up. So "competent enough to make you use resources and some decisions" but not to the point of requiring 20+ resets please.

Expectation of PC durability: Dependent on the battle fought. Really big nasty boss/final, maybe 2 hits or possibly even OHKOs. Regular randoms? I'll say 3-4HKO is workable, although this also depends on frequency of randoms for example.

Scale of battles: Dependent on story I feel. If you're entering major war battles or really important battles, I would not mind being able to deploy more characters (ala FEs). Regular 4 PC battles are fine though. I dislike having additional battle systems ala XG.

Presence and use of switching alongside active party size: I dislike switching overall - I've never actually used it unless it is in core systems or its so broken that you should be using it (HI ACF/FFX). If its done akin to a SRPG though, you should be allowed to determine which players you want to be deployed (so I don't really understand why you WOULD need switching). If its like a regular RPG...eh, I wouldn't cry if it made it in. In terms of balancing it, half turn + limited spaces to switch works for me.

Presence and effect of combo system: Would like a hit counter that awards getting consecutive hits/turns in. Wouldn't cry if it didn't make it in since this does not seem to be the main core of the system such as the VPs.

Presence or absence of combo attacks: Dislike co-op attacks personally. It can add redeeming values to some PCs normally, but sometimes you might end up adding PCs just because of that one skill and thus locking 2 slots instead of one and preventing you from using other characters. I agree with the sentiment: "If it does something unique, then sure. Otherwise, not a fan of them"

Passive leader skills: Leader skills have the same problem in that you are much more likely to use the leader skill character than the other. Leaving it just as a passive PC skill that is provided when the PC is benched though, that I'm fine with. Especially if every PC has one for that matter.

Items: I'm probably the only one who finds Items neat. You can have a set of common items, usable by anyone, and another set of items usable only by those who specialize in items (Gadgeteers in XF are a wonder example of this). Balance is tricky, but banning items to be used in battle irks me.

Plot branching: Yes. I like these. My only concern at the moment is that the person in charge will have to come up with a bazillion different scenarios and thus would be more work.

Difficulty: A normal and a Hard mode works for starters. I wouldn't mind just having added multipliers in hard, although don't make them too retarded. A bonus difficulty mode for differing AI patterns should also be introduced, yes.
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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AndrewRogue

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Round 1 officially ends Tuesday after I get back from work (6pm PST).

I'll tally up the basic thoughts and assessments on the combat system and present what we've got to work with decisively so far.

Next Round will be Setting and Plot (with a side of characters and related mechanics).

Get ready, because I've got some ideas that will BLOW YOUR MINDS.

---

I'm not totalling the votes at the moment, but I think this is what we have at the moment for ROUGH battle system?

CTB, Grandia 3 system (including hit cancels and such), 2 Ring Hex (shared hexes, ST attacks still hit single PCs), Character Switching (but more for Oh Shit Need This PC In This Battle purposes)

Is this about accurate?

In addition, has there been a solid push either way on the presence of combos/combo attacks?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 08:28:48 AM by AndrewRogue »

074

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Plot branching: Yes. I like these. My only concern at the moment is that the person in charge will have to come up with a bazillion different scenarios and thus would be more work.


THIS is why I don't want heavy plot branching.

Quote from: AndrewRogue

I'm not totalling the votes at the moment, but I think this is what we have at the moment for ROUGH battle system?

CTB, Grandia 3 system (including hit cancels and such), 2 Ring Hex (shared hexes, ST attacks still hit single PCs), Character Switching (but more for Oh Shit Need This PC In This Battle purposes)

Is this about accurate?

In addition, has there been a solid push either way on the presence of combos/combo attacks?


Not in favor of char-switching (but keeping a 'reserve' slot anyway), but yeah.

Also, combo system seems to be 'nay' for the most part.  Same for combo attacks.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 02:51:28 PM by Namagomi »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Sir Donald 3.2

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Well, that would certainly make character-switching a non-focal feature... but I don't think we should punish people so much for using it if they -do- like the mechanic... Note that even if we decide to go for high-penalty switching like this, I'd like to see a PC or two who are 'more skilled' at switching and wouldn't have these penalties (or would have some kind of bonuses to make up for the penalties).

I don't like people constantly swapping out.  (Now, I did switch quite a bit for each boss in MMXCM, but it was in the order of Quick-Strike-Team->Whittle-Down-Team->Finishing-Team with Cinnamon always there.)  But there are only 3 cases where I would swap out:  1. Near the Beginning where initial tactics don't seem to be working, 2. When someone's resources are gone, and 3. When someone goes down or is close to doing so.  (And, yes, I would allow for swapping out for Dead characters.  No "Lazy Backup" for me.)

Then again, I forgot we were dealing in CTB and not turn-based.  (Haven't played much ATB lately.)  If "Tagging Out" takes an action, then the "Departing Character" would be vunerable for about half of that "action" depending on Agility/Move/whathaveyou.  Basically, if you're quick, you scamper out of the battle zone faster.  Natural abilities are still active while you're on the field.  (i.e. if a character reflects certain types of magic, he would still do so while he's on the field.)

The incomming character would then only be subject to Target:All/Unfocused spells until such time as (s)he is able to take an action of his/her own.

Of course, if we're using Hexes, then designating a "bench" side or two will allow switching within the boundary zone.  And, as a bonus, the incomming character can use the lesser of the departing character's moveset points or the percentage of moveset points remaining.  i.e. if Character A has 6 movement points and is 2 steps from the "bench side", he can swap out with character B who has 4 moveset points.  Character B can then use {ROUNDDOWN (6-2)/6*4=16/6->2} movepoints to position himself on the field.  (Reverse the situation, and Character A would just have Character B's 2 remaining movepoints.)

Of course, if enemies can call for help, they would be forced to appear on the opposite boundary(ies) from the "bench".  (Or more if it's like a hall with 4 doors and you've only secured one or two.)

---

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If you main four die in the dungeon, now your team of reserves has to go through the whole dungeon just to pick up their corpses!

Or just stuff a bunch of potions in their mouths.  But, again, that was an alternate if we don't do the "Game Over" = "Battle Reset" method.


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Right, so let's just make everyone carbon copies of eachother so no one complains that character A is different from character B...?

The problem there is that if you have different methods, you'll have people preferign one method over another, hence havign them level up more than the others, especially if you use the "Cooldowns" to down randoms then you aren't building up your "Generators" to take on the Bosses.

...unless you are intending on "Leaked Experience".  i.e. inactive party members get 50-100% of the experience that battling party members do.

Persoanlly, I would rather have a GURPS-style of experience wherein Random Battles is not the only way of gaining experience.  Fire Emblem has probably the best example in a JRPG thus far:  Healers get experience using healing and status spells (as well as specific Stave exp.) and Dancers/Bards can also gain experience using their skills.  Though that could be addressing a different problem...

---

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I guess if you flagged all enemies with different colors or something, this could be doable. It's a lot of meters on the screen at once, but this isn't a bad idea and it could be tweaked to suit our purposes.

The meters would only be "seen" on the walking maps/menus.  When you get into battle (and up close on the map) the "alignment" of the monster would be shown by a "Aura Shadow".  Whether it shows the monster's place on the meter (Red is Bad!) or merely designates whether it's invasive, native, or domesticated is up to the designer.

---

As for resets affecting multiple endings... only if it affects the "degree" of the ending.  i.e. You still have a victory either way, and it's mostly hapily ever after, but... maybe different emotional responses and such that impact individual relationships, but the major political scene ends the same way every time.



And since we'll be dealing with settings and plot soon, here's a nugget from me for the former:  I know this is kind of early to be discussing an economic system and/or ItemCrafting, but I always wanted to have a system wherein monsters (i.e. non-sapiens) didn't award currency, but rather the party could skin hides or extract bones or venom sacs.  If we're doing races, or even if not, how these anaimal prizes would be handled would differ:  Naturalistic and Rustic cultures would use the hides as a bartering system directly, ala the Ioka Tribe in Chrono Treigger.  Highly Civilized Societies wouldn't trade hides, but could grant rewards for them: Some civilizations would use a bounty system while others would have alchemists and/or fashion designers giving a nice sum for the produce of specific species.

Yoshiken

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I have a lot of thoughts regarding the plot, but I'm not gonna even bother now. Think everyone's pretty much assuming Andy is mod here, and he's saying the next topic will be plot/storyline, so I'll happily wait for that.

As far as gameplay elements go, I'm happy to see character switching be a desperation thing only. Each character should have enough variety to be usable while having enough unique tricks to be ideal in a specific situation - take P4, with its 3 healers, but only two are MT - one has status healing while the other has full healing. Each has their own niche, yet any team with at least one healer should be able to survive easily enough (by SMT standards).

Also liking Donald's idea of "Character switching takes a turn, with half for each character." Makes sense that a character should take as much time leaving as the new character does appearing, and also allows for some more complex tactics for those who do want to abuse the switching a little more - switch out a tank at the right time so that they take the hit right before switching to a more frail but powerful character? Also makes sense as far as realism goes.

074

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I don't like people constantly swapping out.  (Now, I did switch quite a bit for each boss in MMXCM, but it was in the order of Quick-Strike-Team->Whittle-Down-Team->Finishing-Team with Cinnamon always there.)  But there are only 3 cases where I would swap out:  1. Near the Beginning where initial tactics don't seem to be working, 2. When someone's resources are gone, and 3. When someone goes down or is close to doing so.  (And, yes, I would allow for swapping out for Dead characters.  No "Lazy Backup" for me.)

Then again, I forgot we were dealing in CTB and not turn-based.  (Haven't played much ATB lately.)  If "Tagging Out" takes an action, then the "Departing Character" would be vunerable for about half of that "action" depending on Agility/Move/whathaveyou.  Basically, if you're quick, you scamper out of the battle zone faster.  Natural abilities are still active while you're on the field.  (i.e. if a character reflects certain types of magic, he would still do so while he's on the field.)

The incomming character would then only be subject to Target:All/Unfocused spells until such time as (s)he is able to take an action of his/her own.

Of course, if we're using Hexes, then designating a "bench" side or two will allow switching within the boundary zone.  And, as a bonus, the incomming character can use the lesser of the departing character's moveset points or the percentage of moveset points remaining.  i.e. if Character A has 6 movement points and is 2 steps from the "bench side", he can swap out with character B who has 4 moveset points.  Character B can then use {ROUNDDOWN (6-2)/6*4=16/6->2} movepoints to position himself on the field.  (Reverse the situation, and Character A would just have Character B's 2 remaining movepoints.)

Okay, wall of text here.  So basically you're proposing a 'delay' to leaving and entering, along with temporary 'invisibility' on entering, along with a move reduction.  ...Honestly, I'd rather just stick with instant removal, entering character is replaced on the entry/exit hex with half of CT bar filled.  It's simpler, and far easier to understand.  Not to mention less abuseable.

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Of course, if enemies can call for help, they would be forced to appear on the opposite boundary(ies) from the "bench".  (Or more if it's like a hall with 4 doors and you've only secured one or two.)

Right.  That's assuming there are enemies who would call for help, and would require to assign PC bases/enemy bases on each possible map configuration.  Not to mention thinking of what to do if such hexes are occupied by PC units.  Adds even more complexity.



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Or just stuff a bunch of potions in their mouths.  But, again, that was an alternate if we don't do the "Game Over" = "Battle Reset" method.

Honestly, Game Over = Battle Reset works fine.  Quick, painless.


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...unless you are intending on "Leaked Experience".  i.e. inactive party members get 50-100% of the experience that battling party members do.

With being able to switch people in and out at any point outside of a fight, it is possible to go without leaked experience.  It's a more notable design choice, however, and more convenient for the player. (Usually 70-80% or so is the norm for this, I believe)

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Persoanlly, I would rather have a GURPS-style of experience wherein Random Battles is not the only way of gaining experience.  Fire Emblem has probably the best example in a JRPG thus far:  Healers get experience using healing and status spells (as well as specific Stave exp.) and Dancers/Bards can also gain experience using their skills.  Though that could be addressing a different problem...

FE, ShF, and FFT get away with this only because experience is awarded per action, not per battle.  If it was per-battle, it's irrelevant anyway, since properly-built encounters would assume that PCs -are- doing their job, regardless of what that job is.

Sidenote: GURPS fails at life.



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The meters would only be "seen" on the walking maps/menus.  When you get into battle (and up close on the map) the "alignment" of the monster would be shown by a "Aura Shadow".  Whether it shows the monster's place on the meter (Red is Bad!) or merely designates whether it's invasive, native, or domesticated is up to the designer.

...what would the point of differentiation of this sort be anyway?  Separate aggression meters for separate groups I can see somewhat...but it seems as if it would be comparably be pointless most times.




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And since we'll be dealing with settings and plot soon, here's a nugget from me for the former:  I know this is kind of early to be discussing an economic system and/or ItemCrafting, but I always wanted to have a system wherein monsters (i.e. non-sapiens) didn't award currency, but rather the party could skin hides or extract bones or venom sacs.  If we're doing races, or even if not, how these anaimal prizes would be handled would differ:  Naturalistic and Rustic cultures would use the hides as a bartering system directly, ala the Ioka Tribe in Chrono Treigger.  Highly Civilized Societies wouldn't trade hides, but could grant rewards for them: Some civilizations would use a bounty system while others would have alchemists and/or fashion designers giving a nice sum for the produce of specific species.

I always considered that currency awards were meant to be an abstraction to keep things from getting overcomplicated for the player.  Sure, the realism can be implemented, but the point of the game is not "to be an economics simulation", and frankly working with something like the above would require more going back and forth for the player.  Realism is overrated, in my opinion, and should probably be dropped in favor of convenience, cool, or fun, honestly.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Excal

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Erm...  yeah.  Donald, that game has been made.  It is called FF12.  It was annoying.

Anyways, combo attacks seem like they'd be another distraction at this point, what with the focus on cancelling and timing and movement and what not.  But I'm largely ambivalent on them, so whatever.

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Experience leaking should be in so you don't have to go grind people that are useful for certain types of battles and not others.  It's just extra time the player has to waste.  Games without it basically force you to use one party or spend extra grinding, neither of which are good.  Honestly I'm in favor of just full experience leaking to get rid of the issue entirely.

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Well, my concern is pretty simple; being limited to three basic character builds feels needlessly restrictive in the context of the rest of the game, and my strong kneejerk is that it'll make for a boring system.

As for why, it took me a while to find the right way to explain it that would make sense at a more intellectual level.  So...  okay.  To start with, as I alluded to, if we take these as strict rules to follow for character design, we've essentially made a system in which one set of characters are only useful in short and furious battles, another set only for long, epic battles, and a third that get to pick when to blow their wad.  Unless we give characters a lot of out-of-archetype moves to round things out, it boils down to half the cast being, in any given fight, dead weight.  Since we're not making an SRPG (where all three of these situations would routinely show up in every conflict!), that strikes me as entirely boring.

So, even if you are really dedicated to a simple, easily workable system and focusing on enemy design/character balance to make things interesting, I don't think this is the right system.

More broadly, I don't think simple, easily workable archetypes are the right move for this game at all.  This is more complicated.

It's pretty well a given that we're going to have predefined characters and skills.  At no point in this topic have people expressed the slightest interest in designing a gameplay system akin to Materia, nor the use of a chanable Job system, or anything of the sort.  While it's not been decided what form, precisely, learning skills will take, the desire for each character to do so in a different way, without simple level progression, also kinda rules out things like a skill tree or the like.  In summary, we are not going to have a lot of character customization.  It's still possible we might have robust equipment options (that's something that really hasn't been discussed yet, and is for another topic), so there may be twinking, but real decision making in the progress of our characters is going to be at the design end, not the player.

What that means is, we've already closed off an avenue of player choice in the battle system.  This isn't to say it's the wrong decision; on the whole, the DL has long valued character uniqueness, and such a system detracts from it.  However, because we have made this design decision, we need to be sure to put the player's ability to make meaningful choices and play around with the system elsewhere.  Thusly, if we also have a limited pool of characters to choose from, and force those characters to conform to a very limited number of base character builds, we've basically designed a system in which the player makes no gameplay choices at all and can work out how to use each character within five minutes.  This is a terrible decision.  While gameplay choices can be given by expanding the cast from the bare minimum, and perhaps by giving opportunities to mix the various casts/having significant joined cast sections, if each character falls into a minor variation on a theme this is not terribly meaningful.

However, if we put effort into making characters highly different from each other, each with their own quirks related to fighting style, how they learn skills, and how to best play characters off each other and make use of every aspect of the system, this choice becomes one requiring careful consideration.  I think the best example of what I mean is, funnily enough, Meeple Fantasy 6.  Each character has their niche, and a lot of time was spent to make sure that everyone always had times to shine and tools to make them worth considering, even if the game wasn't perfectly balanced.  But since MF6 is bound by the mechanics and rules of FFVI, and we're literally making things up, we can do even better!

Oddly, though, as I think on it I wonder if we're making the right decision including as strong of SRPG elements as we are.  While having a mid-sized battle field, something expanded from the WA4 model, is fine in principle, I'm not sure if it'll work correctly in practice.  I mean, we're looking at what, 10 minutes per battle on average, just due to positioning?  Sure, this is short of what you'd see in FFT or WAXF or a lot of full-blooded SRPGs, but... they have 50-60 battles in the entire game.  How many are we gonna have?  100?  200, 500?  That's gonna really wear people down.
I could be overthinking this one, but it's something to consider.

Opposed to plot branching.  Quite apart from personal views on games as a storytelling medium in the first place... at present we seem to be implicitly agreed that Andy's doing the real story work, moderating his ideas with suggestions from the peanut gallery.  And while he indicates he likes the idea and is willing to do the work... well.  At minimum, something like this would neccessitate writing multiple versions of every scene with a conversation branch.  In other words, writing 2, 3, whatever versions of a single scene repeatedly.  I mean, I imagine trying to do something like that and I know I'd really get bored with it, lose focus, and quality would suffer, y'know?

And at most, of course, we essentially write multiple games with the same premise, which is bound to either take ages upon ages or get a lot sloppier than a single coherent story.

Now... if we had multiple writers, yeah, a lot of the fatigue would probably be avoidable and, broken up correctly, we could essentially have people writing different views of things pretty effectively.  But I'm kinda skeptical on multiple people volunteering for such a thing, to say the least.
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Excal

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Plot branching feels more like a discussion for the plot section, honestly.

As for your concerns CK, I think you missed the fundamental point of the cooldown characters, which is that they start with a full load of abilities, and after use those abilities take time to come back, but do so in the battle.  And the thing with them is that you'd not only have to juggle their abilities, but also have to deal with the fact that since they have the weakest limit, they will also have the weakest moves or the weakest stats to make up for it.  Similarily, you can have moves that are on the replenishable skillsets that are essentially methods of giving MP to other characters so that you can get the back loaded characters into a fight faster, or you can keep the non-replenishable characters in a longer fight.

As for your concerns about player choice.  I do agree that I overlooked that.  But, WA4 and the first half of Suikoden 3 offer roughly as much customization in the basic setup.  In fact, WA4 has some minor equipment options until you get enough badges, and the ability to trade durability for abilities, and that's pretty much it until the aftergame.  So, it's not like things cannot be done with an inflexible base and still be good.  Especially if a lot of the choice comes from the flexability of the basic system itself.

That said...  yeah.  Your point about long battles really does make me agree.  We'll be wanting the randoms in a system like this to generally be a form of rocket tag with battles lasting longer than two or three rounds being a rarity.

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I was assuming that positioning wouldn't be so important it would stretch out battles (maybe some boss battles, but not randoms).  Positioning would mostly be there for the purposes of AoE attacks, but characters should be able to move and attack an enemy on turn one (not any enemy on the field, but there should be a good chance SOMETHING is in range).  We could implement a system similar to SRW/WAXF where some abilities couldn't be used after moving to make positioning a little more important, but I wouldn't go much further than that.

It is something that needs to be looked at, but it should be doable within the system.

Also agree with CK for the most part regarding characters.

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Opposed to plot branching.  Quite apart from personal views on games as a storytelling medium in the first place... at present we seem to be implicitly agreed that Andy's doing the real story work, moderating his ideas with suggestions from the peanut gallery.  And while he indicates he likes the idea and is willing to do the work... well.

We... did? Given that I've spent every day reminding myself that this project is not my baby, that we must create story and character by committee and I shouldn't approach it like I do with my pet projects (which is to say fashion a leash, wrap the project up tight and only modulate my ideas based on input while maintaining full creative control)... I feel like I missed the implicit agreement. >_>

Anyhow, I feel the need to debate the length of battles. I feel like we've actually made something that'll work out closer to BoFV battle wise (minus the positional niggling and what have you) due to the simplified movement features and what have you. And I could swear most BoFV battles were pretty short. Small grid + being loose with shared space + large-ish movement ranges certainly feels a lot more along the lines of BoFV than SRPG. Frankly, I'm not seeing the 10 minute battles, thing.

What do you think is really pushing the random battle length up over, say, a standard BoFV fight?

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Yeah, if Andy thinks he has a chokehold on plot/character thingummy writing/planning he best have another think coming~

And yeah, not seeing > BoFV fights for length at all, and those really only were longish earlygame IIRC when you had less people/options. They... mmm, some of the gimmick fights might have been longer? But I'm not seeing any length that'd be dramatically offputting.

Cmdr_King

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I didn't mean to imply that you said such a thing, andy.  Instead, I think people were kinda assuming it.  as no one else had spoken up on the matter except you.
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Like Xorn-chan, I'm interested in the plot/character planning. I just didn't assume Andy'd write that monster by himself...

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We weren't at plot/character design and discussion yet, so I didn't have anything to say~!

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Plot branching feels more like a discussion for the plot section, honestly.

As for your concerns CK, I think you missed the fundamental point of the cooldown characters, which is that they start with a full load of abilities, and after use those abilities take time to come back, but do so in the battle.  And the thing with them is that you'd not only have to juggle their abilities, but also have to deal with the fact that since they have the weakest limit, they will also have the weakest moves or the weakest stats to make up for it.  Similarily, you can have moves that are on the replenishable skillsets that are essentially methods of giving MP to other characters so that you can get the back loaded characters into a fight faster, or you can keep the non-replenishable characters in a longer fight.

As for your concerns about player choice.  I do agree that I overlooked that.  But, WA4 and the first half of Suikoden 3 offer roughly as much customization in the basic setup.  In fact, WA4 has some minor equipment options until you get enough badges, and the ability to trade durability for abilities, and that's pretty much it until the aftergame.  So, it's not like things cannot be done with an inflexible base and still be good.  Especially if a lot of the choice comes from the flexability of the basic system itself.

Well, all RPGs have a tendency to limit a player's options in the beginning. It allows the narrative to focus more and introduce characters and concepts to the player more gradually. This can backfire too... as MK, ES, and FE7 have shown. Too long of a tutorial phase can turn players off. S3 has so many characters, it works out, but even there, you get some early party-making options depending on how you recruit. And honestly, I always feel the game doesn't start until Ch 4. So I think constraining the player's party options for too long isn't in our best interest.

I think your 'Race' system can work if we expand it more, but honestly I'm really liking the idea of each party member being built and working off of different/unique skill systems. It's something I've never really seen implemented in an RPG, whereas a Race system isn't uncommon. SH2/FF6 are the closest to this system that I can think of, but I'd like to see our IAQ try it on a grander scale.

Plot... I'm fine with Andy leading the charge, but I'd like to think that the group gets to decide a primary concept together first.

Time for a new topic, Andy~!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 03:37:47 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

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I think that shorter randoms are generally a good idea. Personally, I think that SH3 handled randoms perfectly. They were short and were typically made up of a large group of weak enemies or a durable one with one or two support enemies.  This makes status vulnerabilities fairly easy to figure out as well. The weaker enemies were usually susceptible to the more dangerous status effects like ID or petrification while the stronger ones were vulnerable to less severe status effects like poison.