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Author Topic: <Untitled IAQ Project>: War Never Ends (voting over, but discussion to continue)  (Read 23480 times)

DjinnAndTonic

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I think character combo attacks (Unite Attacks/Dual Techs) really lend themselves to our battlefield. Especially since they can be made in such a way as to actually make positioning more important. If you want to use certain powerful combinations, then you might need to have your PCs surround an enemy, or have them join up in the same hex. Even if it's not a big feature, it would be pretty useful for giving characters another level to contribute to their uniqueness and deciding how you want to build your parties. Especially exciting once the teams join up. I remember that even Fire Emblem had some limited team attacks (Triangle Attack!) that were always memborable to me, even though there was never more than like 3 in a single game. It meant I always used my Peg Knights together. I just think there's a pretty solid reason for including combo attacks in this IAQ. (Not to mention that they're fun to make up and tie into the storyline, and we really should be having fun with this stuff).

Dark Holy Elf

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Scattered comments:


I'm also adding my voice as someone who wants to be involved with plot and hasn't spoken up yet since this isn't the topic, etc. etc.

I don't really care for combo attacks, because in every game I've played except Chrono Trigger and Original Generation 2 (and in OG2 they were probably a detriment to character balance) they felt tacked on and didn't really add to the gameplay. Not opposed to them, but we should think long and hard about just how powerful we want them to be and how often they are to be used.

I generally prefer longer randoms (rocket tag gets old) but have been assuming we will be making shorter ones since I know from personal experience this is something I'm in a minority on. (Also it must be said that I'm only for longer randoms if they're interesting, long randoms that are easy or repetitive suck ass.)

Strongly for plot branching, but that's another topic. I think it offers more storytelling perspectives than the single party of do-gooders.

I think PC design needs its own topic, and since we're treading more towards that area I think it may be getting close to the time that this topic needs to close.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

074

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I generally prefer longer randoms (rocket tag gets old) but have been assuming we will be making shorter ones since I know from personal experience this is something I'm in a minority on. (Also it must be said that I'm only for longer randoms if they're interesting, long randoms that are easy or repetitive suck ass.)

Strongly for plot branching, but that's another topic. I think it offers more storytelling perspectives than the single party of do-gooders.

I think PC design needs its own topic, and since we're treading more towards that area I think it may be getting close to the time that this topic needs to close.

Seconding the 'better for randoms to be interesting' statement.

Also, I guess I was misunderstood from the plot branching statement.  By this, I meant "plot diverges completely based on action X or action Y".  Multi-PoV is something I assumed would end up occurring, on the other end.

Lastly, I have been trying to stay away from individual PC design.  Since it's going that way, however...well, that'll be saved for after the plot/setting topic, IIRC.


Sidenote: I am interested in being involved with plot, at least somewhat.  I won't speak up if I lack any ideas that wouldn't get shot down, though.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Dark Holy Elf

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Oh, decision-based plot branching? Yeah, not really interested, it can easily cause writing to lose focus. A major branch or two is okay if it really fits the plot and themes of the game, but massive branching just leads to unfocussed garbage.

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Maybe.

OblivionKnight

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I think Decision-Based plot branching is awesome.  However, reserve it for near the end, and make it easy to spot:

- Choice 1
- Choice 2

"This choice could affect your life immensely, are you sure?"

Simple, near the end, obvious that a save needs made - make sure a save point is before it.


I'm also in the mood for longer battles myself...I'd say 5 minutes minimum, 10 max, to keep things relatively balanced.

Also in for plot/character development.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

DjinnAndTonic

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Since we're going with visible randoms a la Chrono Cross, we can probably afford to have slightly longer battles. Players can avoid them if they want, but even if they get stuck fighting them all, there shouldn't be so many that it's a drain if we have ~5 minute battles. And of course, depending how we decide to handle crazy levelgrinders, it's an option if we let the randoms respawn. (Alternately, we could just have a low number of locales where randoms respawn to cut back on grinders until near the most difficult portions of the game/aftergame.)

Cmdr_King

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Randoms only respawn if you leave the dungeon.  Dammit.
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Pyro

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Oh, decision-based plot branching? Yeah, not really interested, it can easily cause writing to lose focus. A major branch or two is okay if it really fits the plot and themes of the game, but massive branching just leads to unfocussed garbage.
This. Very much so. Even critically acclaimed games like Bioware stuff falls victim to the pitfall viciously and regularly. In order to accommodate a fair number of branches the writing for each branch would have to be weaker, which is bad.

Five minute fights? That is really obnoxiously long for random encounters that aren't specifically scripted ala a plot scene. Short but brutal is better for randoms, longer drawn out for plot/boss encounters (you can have scripted fights with multiple non-boss type enemies be engaging and lengthy)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 06:18:56 AM by Pyro »

Excal

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Honestly, if we're going to be having visible randoms, then we might as well take advantage of that and not let the randoms be random.  ie. We should take the effort to actually stat out each and every random encounter in the game.  This means that we can actually have long randoms, because we know how often they will appear.  This means that we can actually have things other than rocket tag show up a non-negligable percentage of the time and not have to worry about some RNG throwing that out of whack.  Variety being the spice of life and all that.

Personally, I'm still in favour of invisible randoms with a depleting guage.  But, if we're going to do visible randoms, then let's do them right.

AndrewRogue

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And, although its a bit early, I'm gonna end the topic. My previous assessment of the battle system seems to stand, so I'm going to leave it as the official skeleton for the time being. If this is somehow wrong, lemme know.

New topic will go up in a bit.

Excal

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Why not leave it alive for a little bit longer.  Make an official cut off point, but let it linger so that mechanics related stuff can continue to get mention.  Either so it has a proper place to exist if it suddenly leaps into focus.  Or so we have a good place to throw out ideas for a starting point or consideration when we get back to this topic in more detail.

AndrewRogue

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Works for me. I had no intention to lock it anyway. Shall I change the topic title to better reflect this?

Excal

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War Never Changes, Voting Over?

DjinnAndTonic

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This also goes here.

Quote
tl;dr version:
Magic manifests through 5 senses. Most people don't have enough of these senses to sense magic well enough to use it. Mages tend to focus on one sense, though may be skilled at using others.

1. Touch: High-sensitivity Tactile mages work like Blue mages, have low magic resistance, intuitively cast spells quickly, though can't cast for long due to feeling the effects of their own magic. Very rare. Very powerful. Specialize in spell mimicry.
Low-sensitivity Tactile mages have to be in contact with an item or target to use magic, working more like item-casters or melee-enhancers. Low resistance, fast casting, but limited by supplies. Fairly common. Specialize in close-range magic.

2. Taste/Scent: High-sensitivity Flavor mages only sense biological magic. They have little ability to effect non-living things. Average resistance, fairly intuitive above-average casting speed. Uncommon. Specialize in healing and transmutation.
Low-sensitivity Flavor mages cannot directly manipulate biological matter, so they rely on potions/items and work like alchemists/hedgewizards. Low resistance, above average casting speed, but generally requires supplies, and sometimes mistakes happen.

3. Sound: High-sensitivity/talent Aural mages tend to be artists and musicians. They intuitively understand the 'tones' of music and tend to use song and rhythm to cast spells. Very high magical evade, and songs tend to produce either instantly effective(though instantly-ending duration with the music) abilities or very slow-to-start abilities that don't take effect until the completion of the song. Somewhat rare. Because focusing is difficult, they tend to specialize in Group-targeting spells and Field Effects.
Low-sensitivity/talent Aural mages tend to be mathematicians, using long-researched short tones to produce effects. Correctly producing the tones is difficult, and casting tends to be sluggish, and have short-lasting effects. Fairly common ability, though few lay people use the talent outside of knowing when to get out of the way of magic. Relatively high magic evade, specialize in defensive effects.

4. Sight: Vision mages tend to view magic by its colors and shades, and sometimes subtle patterns. Work likes standard mages, though some Vision spells can be recreated in items. Average resistance, usually slow casting speeds with variable duration on effects. High-sensitivity Vision mages are uncommon, but most people have some ability to see magic and can train the ability. Specialize in Elemental magic.

5. Mind/Logic: Theory mages are the dedicated students and researchers of magic. Even if they have crappy magical senses, they can work hard and learn this type of magic. These spells tend to focus on complex diagrams, runes, formulas, or magic circles to produce effects. A pure Theory mage has no magical resistance, and their spells take a lot of time to cast, though tend to have the longest-lasting durations. Because anyone is capable of using a Theory spell, this branch of magic specializes in using multiple people to produce one spell (combo attacks). Theory mages with talents in all 4 senses tend to be able to use the highest level of reality-bending magic and summoning.

So, from a mechanics' viewpoint, I've actually created 9 distinct styles with this. Adding in how Dissonance and Resonance work would bump that number to well above our current PC total, while still retaining a thematic base. I think the best way to follow Excal's proposed '3 systems' resource management would be to divide up the users by party. I imagine one party is primarily Resonance casters, one party is primarily (or only) Dissonance casters, and the third party is a combination of the two, and perhaps have the third-type caster(s) mixed in somewhere.

I'm not quite sure how Resonance and Dissonance (and Quieting) would really manifest in the mechanics style though. Anyone have any ideas?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 01:06:05 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

074

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Dissonance...would be most of your standard magic.  Resonance is out-of-battle healing, direct-to-stat buffs, and 'augmented' physical abilities of sorts primarily, I'd assume?


Quieting, uh...only stuff I can think of there so far are instant kills and dispel effects so far from what the other topic's said.  Possibly some nontyped damage.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Talaysen

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Dissonance magic should be powerful with a backlash effect of some sort, depending on the strength of the spell.  This could be done with cooldowns or high MP costs, or just plain other backlash effects (self-damage, self-status, etc.).

Resonance magic should be weaker, but would not have backlash effects, and some possibly could get stronger the more it's used.  For example, a buff could start out weak but gradually increase in strength as time passes.  Damage spells could be weak the first casting, but gradually grow in strength as you cast them more in the same battle.  There's some neat things we can do here.

Quieting... yeah, instant death, dispel, status healing, perhaps some defense ignoring non-typed damage or something.  Mostly "void"-like stuff.

Honestly, I don't feel like each type of magic *must* use the same resource system/mechanics.  Especially if we ever have a PC that can use both types of magic (probably weaker spells of both sides for balance reasons).

Also, I don't think this really needs to be hashed out right now either.

Excal

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Well, no.  I'm with Tal here.  This doesn't mesh with resources, this meshes with effects.  Resonance being small things that happen over time, Dissonance being huge effects that carry debuffs, and Quietus just being stopping things.

AndrewRogue

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Also, don't forget, we're likely to have melee types!

Cmdr_King

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Blending some of my own ideas along with Djinns and some extrapolations from Andy's existing notes for a different take on a potential 'class' breakdown.  Some will basically be completely different, others not so much.

Tactile Dissonance- The capacity to feel magic, and shape it with the hands, makes tactile dissonance practicioners particularly adept and molding the Flow and turning it into physical objects.  In other words, conjuring items magically.  Can take nearly any form, and foundational to the empire's success, but impossible to teach to those without native talent.  Comperable to alchemists.

Tactile Resonance- Moving the Flow within objects, they specialize in enhancement.  aiding in healing, growth, making materials stronger and more durable, the best known form of Resonance.  Considerably easier to learn; mentally, changing magical energy to matter is beyond most people, but the idea of moving Flow is native to most with any sense of it.  Support mages, best used in conjunction with their Dissonance counterparts.

Scent/Taste- Emotions/intent leave distinct impressions on the Flow, and as such those who perceive it through scent and taste are adept at reading the emotions of those around them, and in turn altering the scent to enforce desired emotions or reactions upon others.
Dissonance- Adept at manipulating the senses and thinking of others.  Can cut others off from their senses, cause illusions, and in extreme cases can trigger the effects of toxins and other physical effects via psychosomatic response.  Pureblooded status mages.
Resonance- Adept at manipulating the emotions and responses of others.  Can easily calm rages, enhance morale, sow distrust among enemies, or bring comfort to allies.  Comperable to buffing/debuffing.  Eirwen strikes me as a high grade Scent Resonance user.

Aural Dissonance- Detect minute changes to the flow.  While not terribly useful in a novice, in an experienced practicioner, these changes, even at their earliest noise, tell them a great deal about what is being cast, allowing them to easily react and snuff out these effects before they take place.  Akin to Cancel and Hamedo-type effects.  Additionally, can easily reproduce the sounds of other Dissonance users, allowing them to mimic their spells with less effort and wear.  Based on Andy's comments, by the time of the game, Erastus has switched over to Aural Dissonance.

Aural Resonance- While they have the same capacity to hear the beginnings of Flow manipulation, Resonance practicioners cannot reverse those manipulations.  They can, however, use this sense to better place themselves to avoid the results and launch counterattacks on the caster.  Evade and Counter whores, best used in conjunction with martial skill.  Mirek seems to have Aural Resonance among his talents.

Visual Dissonance- While less desirable than Tactile Dissonance, Visual Dissonance is an immensely powerful tool, enabling the user to directly channel the Flow as an offensive weapon.  The form of the energy varies strongly based on personality, but tends to take the form of elemental manipulation (Fire, Earth, Lightning), although direct manipulation of objects (telekinesis) is also possible.  Traditional attack mages.  Erastus was once a Visual practicioner, before 'blinding' himself in the war.  Noemi also uses Visual Dissonance.

Visual Resonance- Simultaneously the 'strongest' and 'weakest' form of Resonance.  Visual Resonance users are adept with the weather, the effects of which vary wildly; altering the direction of a strong wind, creating a gentle breeze on a still day, inducing rain from clouds.  However, in areas of disquiet, the ambient magical energy allows them to recreate the effects that created the disquiet, though smaller in scale and greater in control.  Essentially Geomancers.

Theorycraft- Careful study of the manipulation of Flow has discovered substances and patterns which can recreate specific effects.  Users of Theorycraft make no real distinction between Dissonance and Resonance, and while they can create formulas nearly anywhere, for fast effects they often carry talismans which already have the necessary formulas imprinted on them.  Blend between item-casting and standard mages, though in exchange for charge times in the latter.

Kinetic Dissonance- While unable to directly 'sense' the Flow itself, those with Kinetic sense can still detect how it moves, both within bodies and in the world.  Kinetic Dissonance allows for unnatural feats of speed and motion, and in extreme cases can allow the user to teleport from place to place.  Something akin to a time mage.

Kinetic Resonance- Difficult to use properly, Kinetic Resonance essentially 'guides' one's actions, allowing for greater speed, more efficent casting, a host of small effects.  Akin to a Dancer.
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Yoshiken

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Will read CK's post soon, just commenting on something else.
I'm still strongly against the '3 class' system, especially if each party consists of a different class. Seriously, entire party of buffers? No thanks. We need some variety for things to work well and stay interesting, and that's only done by mixing and matching party members. And, even then, some characters should cross magic types, so that's another big no from me to the class/party system.

Edit: Liking all the ideas. Just want to point out the emphasis on having some actual melee in there, though. It'd probably be best to merge some mages where necessary (or boost the cast size!) in order to create room for our warriors, berserkers, thieves, etc.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 08:24:04 PM by Yoshiken »

Cmdr_King

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Well, some of the magic schools are really more useful as enhancements to a more physical fighting style.  That said, while we might be obligated to have some pure melee action in there, I doubt it'll be many.
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AndrewRogue

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Before I forget, let's ask the big question. Based on where we are headed with plot and setting, do people feel the skeletal battle system sounds, thematically/stylistically, functional still?

Edit: Will respond to CK's thoughts after work at some point.

Sir Donald 3.2

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There's a difference between 3 (or 12) different sets of magic systems in storyline and 3 (or more) different gameplay systems.  Now, the former can be used to justify the latter, but I'd really like to see how.  (Although I have a hard time seeing a "Resonance" mage having just a stock standard MP pool.  Some sort of regeneration mechanism will have to be employed for them.)

As for the hex system: as long as it's the size of a small room or 1/9th of a regular room, it's cool.

Excal

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Honestly, I'm kinda seeing Resonance casters being the ones with the regenerative pool, dissonance being they have what they have, and the martial types being cooldown after doing stuff.  That said, I also wouldn't suggest going hard and fast with that, and instead using it as a guideline, applying that distinction more as a character quirk that just happens to typically fall under the kind of primary magic they use.

On another note, I'm honestly liking the idea of Martial Characters of note being those with limited use of Resonance, or even very finely controlled Dissonance which doesn't let them have overtly magical effects, but does let them pull off physically improbable stunts at the same time.

Talaysen

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After looking over CK's ideas, I just had one remark.  I envisioned Aural mages as central based AoE damage/buffing/healing/whatever.  Afterall, they can only effect as far as the sound goes.  I was thinking more of a "cast spell and it lasts until player chooses to stop it, either by taking another action or just stopping it".  So maybe damage over time/regen/buffing.  Stuff like that.  Not that what CK said is mutually exclusive with this idea or anything.

Andrew, yes, the battle system seems like it would still work with the plot/setting.  Even better, since we could have Dissonance spellcasting effect the hex of the user and/or target (Dissonance casting adds Disquiet which hurts the location in some manner).  Resonance spellcasting could be used to buff a hex (or just a character, depending on the spell).  I think it could tie in well.

And yes, we definitely need some fighter types.  Some could dabble in magic a bit, but we should probably have a few pure fighters for variety.